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4:36 AM
It does have me thinking though, that a natural extension to a site about careers and the job hunting process would be an actual companion site for searching for jobs in any industry. Come to the Q&A for the career tips and knowledge, then go to the career site to land a new job. — jmort253 3 mins ago
@jmort253 I think the issue is that SO Careers is a natural extension of SO in the sense that employers get to see relevant information on candidates via their SO profile
@jmac Not so much with Workplace.
@jmort253 Additionally, the applicants who see the ads will (generally) be people who are interested in programming as noted by their participation on the site
It would be a different concept altogether really.
@jmort253 Exactly -- it would become an ABC guide to getting a job, which seriously dilutes the value of a job posting there.
In this case, the ads would have to target a completely different audience altogether.
But, employers pay good money to post ads on SO Careers, so the ad revenue seems dwarfed by the revenue generated by job postings.
4:38 AM
@jmort253 Now if, on the other hand, TW focused on management skills (for instance) and TW Careers focused on hiring managers, that I could see, but that isn't likely going to happen
@jmac Having a focus is definitely advantgeous.
@jmort253 Yeah, because the quality of candidates is high -- joel had a blog post on it as well. Because of the demographic of the audience, a job posting on SO (or in the blog post's case Joel's blog) will have a much higher effectiveness because of the quality of the readers.
With SO Careers, you know where you stand.... you're either hiring a programmer or a programmer looking for a job.
@jmort253 The issue with Monster.com or whatnot is that there are no filters to limit the quality of applicants, and in reality because of its business model it has to appeal to the lowest common denominator to maximize eyes on the site (and therefore revenues)
@jmort253 Bingo.
Still, imagine a collaboratively edited careers site where a community peer reviewed and edited job postings, to help employers attract good candidates.
and where cover letters and resume's submitted could also go through a peer review process.
4:40 AM
That would be awesome
what would be even more awesome is if the employers were to post sample situations to see how candidates would respond to them
Could that help weed out bad candidates or also get folks jobs who just don't understand the process?
based on actual issues their company has faced, or questions that they think will have value in judging the character of people who woul dfit their team
Yeh, you can definitely see who has the best judgement by reading the content here.
It's definitely not SO Careers, but something altogether different....
@jmort253 I think that the biggest hurdle a site like that would face is that the quality of the editors (contributors, whatever) would likely be dwarfed by the number of people saying, "Update my resume plz"
And if the quality of contributors drops, the value of job postings there would plummet as well.
@jmac YEh, keeping those folks out would be difficult.
So that sort of makes that whole collaboratively edited career site a bit of a monster.
4:43 AM
If we go back to the comment you have made a lot of the time, that this should be more seen as a site for HR professionals, I think it could work.
But suppose there was a way Workplace SE could provide value by making a job search site different, something that doesn't exist in other job sites.
Maybe ratings for employers too? .... except that could be bad for business.
Fully agreed, not trying to shoot down the idea at all, I think it just has a lot of potential deal-stopping kinks that would have to be worked out prior to iteration #1
"I paid $1,000 to post an ad on Workplace Careers and those bastards downvoted my ad"
I think the primary features would have to be: #1, resume checking would be tied to community contribution (people who provide value get checks more frequently)
@jmac How do you work around the kinks? So let's assume community editing is just a bad idea.
@jmac That's a good idea....
4:45 AM
#2, jobs would be applied to based on the resume posted on there -- employers would be able to ANONYMOUSLY provide feedback on what they do/don't like -- that would have to be incentivized too
or maybe the bounty system could be tied to it.
Like 100 reputation to get a resume reviewed.
but the review has to be public so other future readers can benefit.
sans all private info of course...
I would rather have it be a queue-type system for resume reviews, and have those with more weight thrown to the top
though yeah, it should be public
that is an excellent point.
that's probably easier to develop actually, to just use rep as weight.
like flag weight.
Easier to develop doesn't mean it will be successful, unfortunately.
it's just a calculated ratio used to rant something.
4:46 AM
I know I just broke some poor developer's heart with that statement.
no but it does mean if it is successful it's easier to maintain.
Nah, I'm a developer and the most important thing I earned is to keep it simple.
but yeah, general concept is provide incentive in the form of quicker reviews to active participants
give employers the ability to provide anonymous feedback
(and incentivize that)
so how do you encourage people to do good reviews?
You would have to implement review reviews!
(that is half-joking)
and resume review audits.
4:48 AM
But I think the goal isn't to have the community do the final check, but to have the employers do it
Yeh, for sure... we're not doing the hiring, just helping people get themselves to the point where they're presentable.
and not doing something stupid just because they're a little naive.
Exactly -- fix typos, gross errors, that sort of stuff, and then maybe have an A-B testing feature for versions
So see whether "Led Spacely Sprockets in Number of Times Fired" appeals more than "Led Cogswell Cogs in Number of Times Hired" or the like
so... the next obvious question is, does LinkedIn already do some of this stuff?
I get a lot of endorsements from people....
Sort of, but the platform isn't designed like that, and the careers on LinkedIn are all off to the side, sort of tacked on to a social media platform
The endorsements are meaningless though -- I have never heard of an employer that actually cared about those, because they are so easily gamed.
@jmac Yeh, seems like a gimmick
Which most employers would see through.
4:52 AM
I almost think TW Careers would be better-off acting as the middle-man figuring out how best to connect employers with employees. Using stuff like A-B testing for both resumes and job openings, as well as anonymous feedback both ways
So for resume AB testing, like when an employer searches for candidates, and Bob Smith comes up, there's a 50/50 chance that Bob resume A might show for 1 employer and Bob resume B for another?
So on the user side, people post resumes to have gross errors fixed, create alternative ways to say similar things. Resumes that seem to fit can be auto-matched with job offers and the employers can provide anonymous feedback on the resumes, with the others doing the same on the job offers
Thing is, how often do people change careers? How do you get results from that?
@jmort253 Sort of, yes. That is pretty basic A-B testing. It would be a bit more complex than that in reality (different phrasings for different portions, so you get a mix and match of various phrases to get richer feedback)
@jmac A better play on that would be a community "Hire or no hire" series of buttons.
Take jcmeloni, for instance, she's done a lot of hiring.
4:54 AM
@jmort253 Sorry, I probably skipped a step. I was thinking of using TW Careers to reinvent the job searching process. Rather than giving employees another way to look for job postings, or employers another place to post their job, randomly match suitable candidates and openings together and have the goal be feedback on both sides (anonymously)
and we have some avid users here who work in HR.
So you post a job for C++, lead developer, senior developer, whatever
Thing is, folks looking to hire people treat the process as a manufacturing operation.
just going through resume after resume with the laser-focused goal of finding a candidate.
I don't see too many employers providing feedback.
People with skills that match those are auto-selected from our variety of job postings, and given to the employer. The users are auto-shown the job posting. They can all decide whether it seems like a good fit from their end
we even get a lot of questions from job searchers upset that they weren't told why they weren't hired.
4:56 AM
this would help refine what candidates the person is looking for (and give a better idea of how to find those candidates) which if valuable, and also let them know what those candidates they like think about their job posting
Yeah, because the job search process is generally broken -- employers get bad candidates applying and don't want to bother saying no
It has no benefit to them.
Thing is, the people on both sides are just faceless pieces of paper. I can't tell you whether I'd be a good fit for employer X without actually interviewing and seeing the office and the people.
In fact, when I read a job posting, my stomach gets in knots :)
If employers instead are given a quick glance of who we think are good matches, and they can click through 'yes/no' for each, then TW would know which candidates look good on paper, and how to care more about what they think.
@jmort253 Yeah, that's exactly the issue!
Let's say an employer is looking for someone like you on paper.
So you're thinking basic feedbacl
And they read your resume.
thumbs up or down.
4:58 AM
They probably have a billion questions!
#1: Yes/no on whether this is of any interest to me
no -> no feedback, pointless, not worth discussing
if that's the only way to hit the next button then that could work.
(feedback would be nice, but probably unlikely)
at least from employers... they're paying for the site.
#2: For those who they answer yes to, the feedback process starts.
at least I assume they'd be
4:59 AM
Worry about the business model later
the value needs to come first
(and then you can figure out how much and to whom)
So an employer thinks Alice, Bob, and Charlie are good.
Alice Bob and Charlie are asked to give feedback on the job posting as it is. If they think it is bad, they can say why people like them wouldn't be interested. Be it salary, ambiguous language, just being "words on paper"
at the same time, for all the people who said they liked the job posting, the employer could give feedback on why they aren't the right type of fit for the company, etc.
What would be the value to the employer?
If I'm looking to hire someone, how does this help me?
The employer wants Alice, Bob, and Charlie.
But Alice, Bob, and Charlie may not like the job posting.
If the employer can't get Alice, Bob, and Charlie, figuring out how to appeal to candidates like Alice, Bob, and Charlie would be of great value to them
So the employer gets feedback too so that they can tweak the ad
know who looked at them and why those people didn't apply.
5:03 AM
Nobody would apply in my system (at least not as a default)
you would just give hypothetical interest or no
visceral reaction type stuff. And when those don't match up, feedback to refine the message and get better reactions, which follows with more testing. If during that process there is a good fit, then a candidate can apply.
I haven't looked for a job in years, so I wonder if this is how most of the sites work? Actually I did look at some postings in SO Careers when we were looking for an Asterisk engineer, but I didn't see anything like what we're talking about.
There is nothing I have ever seen like I'm discussing
so a canddiate can't even apply for a posting until that candidate has been vetted
and vice versa, the employers' posting doesn't go live until it's been reviewed.
so it's like both parties don't meet up until both are in top shape.
Yes, that all can be tweaked, but rather than the goal being hiring, you make the goal general feedback
and you incentivize feedback to create a community giving feedback -- more eyes means more refinement means better candidates/jobs
That might be something people would get behind.
5:06 AM
And the beauty is that if it is designed right, it has value to both parties, and becomes not a one-sided process but a truly productive process to get a good team together
adding in the Q&As for potential employees would be awesome as well, providing real context and further refinement of the information on candidates (and getting a real resource of what real employers want to know about their employees)
@jmac Is this something you think Workplace SE could do with existing tools? I picture a separate, auxiliary site.
@jmort253 Existing tools wouldn't work as-designed. They could be slightly modified to work.
If each resume was a questions, and each job opening was a question, then the 'related posts' dropdowns could be used.
Industries or skills could be defined as tags for those 'types' of questions
that would allow candidates and jobs to be automagically set for each other
the review queue system could be used to throw the posts of job offers/resumes in the respective matched employer/employee's queues to give a 'yes/no' to
a follow-up queue could be created when one side is saying 'yes, this is good' and the other saying 'no' which would mimic the edit queue, or allow them to provide feedback as an answer to that post with further feedback
in the case of yes-yes, the employee would be given a choice to submit their resume immediately to that company with private details removed (to allow them to actually apply for the job)
@jmac Well, these are great ideas. I've starred the beginning of this thread.
5:22 AM
I'm sure Rhys will give his feedback -- he seems to read everything in here
At any rate, it would be a great future concept depending on how SO careers pans out, and once we pass through Beta and reach critical mass of users
(we still have a lot too many 'Why does everyone around me suck?' questions to appeal to many employers who wouldn't want applications from people like that is my guess)
In the meantime, I think the best may just be networking amongst the regulars and others who want to participate -- if it did manage to get someone a good lead, it would definitely end up as a positive step forward at any rate (and a proof of value of the community!)
Q: Peer review for resume's and job postings

jmort253One of the ways Workplace SE could provide more value is by creating a platform to help employers and job candidates create high quality job postings and job applications, which will help candidates attract the best employers and employers attract the best candidates. The process: We attach an ...

@jmac - I posted a summary here just so this is documented. I don't expect this to go anywhere, but conversations like this are awesome ways to think about how we can provide more value!
I've gotta run. ttyl! :)
5:37 AM
Have a nice evening!
3 hours later…
8:12 AM
@jmac Warning: Some users might not like this, as the types of questions asked here can harm an employees chances if it's known who they are. I.e the people complaining about bosses, or co workers, or ethically grey areas, might not want that tied to them and their CV through workplace careers
Also, if we extend into a workplace careers part we will get a lot more questions about careers. I.e how do I move from position X to Z. We would either need heavy discussion about bringing these on topic as a whole, or how we are going to make sure we aren't swamped in off topic questions because of the extension site
8:49 AM
Just to be sure - You're not connected to the "Don't brainsize me, bro!" 'Jonathan' are you? stackoverflow.com/users/116906/jonathanhayward – Jim G. 5 hours ago
@JimG. I'm not sure if these kinds of questions are a good idea, the automatic assumption (whether rightly or wrongly) is that the answer will change your treatment or actions towards the user and his questions.

Not trying to get at you, just letting you know how it seems as i doubt that was your intention!
1 hour later…
10:12 AM
@RhysW And those people should ask anonymously! Which is already a similar issue, no? I mean, if your real name is attached to your SO profile, or if your SO profile is linked to your TW profile, then they can figure out anyway...
The reason SO works is because it ties a CV to their questions, answers and rep. If we are trying to make the workplace equivalent it would work because of the questions and answers given. If we make the push for Workplace Careers people will worry about having their questions tied to them, everything will end up being asked and answered anonymously. and Workplace careers becomes just another job site.

For it to work it will need to have something that sets it apart from other job sites, namely, being tied to a valid, used, workplace user. Which poses issues for those users with questions
@RhysW I think there are ways around it, and don't think it's a show-stopper at any rate. I agree that it needs to be handled carefully, but not so much so that it needs to be totally canned because of it
Oh no, I think it's a good idea, I'm just being the counterweight to you and Jmort, because well, the best ides are those that come out of constructive disagreements!
Just want us to be wary of alienating or pushing away some users because they fear having their profile tied to their CV
3 hours later…
1:16 PM
@jmac yah. I just skim it! :P
my concerns:
1) scalability - does this scale to a large site? I feel like we'll get way more interest from "review this" than reviewers
2) I don't initially believe people will be prone to hanging around after posting reviews, maybe people would have interest - I don't want this to facilitate "drive by" as much
1:41 PM
@jmort253 The problem with weighting by rep is that rep is easy to get with time. It does not actually represent the quality of your contributions. Now if your rep was based on your average post score that would be different
@Chad That's an interesting twist on how to use rep. It discounts all the 1 rep answers one may have collected, or even controversial negatively-scored posts.
That's harder to game.
@Chad This is the metric I use personally to consider
So if you're a really active, positively scored Workplace SE user, you get priority.
You could simply make it so that you have to have some rep here before you can request reveiws
2:03 PM
@enderland I would happily be a reviewer
Not saying you'd care, just stating that there is at least some interest out there
yeah but I mean longer term, maybe though this is aproblem which would be good to have :)
though that would make the workplace a very, very popular spot on the web for stuff like this @jmort253
@jmort253 We will get a lot of people complaining that their awesome answer didn't get lots of views so never got votes, though.
We will also have the less than savory types trying to game the system by downvoting everyone, to give themselves priority
2:24 PM
Yes, all these issues can be worked through. Popularity is good, and if we manage the signal:noise ratio well, we get a great site that people are happy to participate on, and employers froth at the mouth to get applications from.
@jmac I hope so!
3:00 PM
@jmac I'm voting to delete quite a few Qs this morning that have your answers... :P
A: Is it a good idea to drink a bit before a job interview to help with nervousness?

user10565I just did it and got the job. The point is i am a top notch employee but suck at interview. Vodka is best. Its clear alcohol and will Not smell. Use anti poleez (strong gum) to be safe with breadth. Had the best interview and got the job next day

this answer is dissapointing
it says how to deal with breadth, but what about length!
"You have already voted to delete this post"
I'm going to run out of delete votes today
got an interview tomorrow, wish me luck, will be my first official interview
3:08 PM
bam, throwing my delete votes at things, im the third on everything, the change to red is satisfying
out of votes :(
yeah lol, I hit my limit at 18
was 2nd on a looot of stuff
you have 18? triple what i get :/
nom nom nom
why do you think @Chad keeps posting? gotta get rep for delete votes! :)
aha, true!
3:11 PM
there's an undelete vote? wat?
im just trying to get to 4k
so i can do tag edits without spamming everyone
Q: How should a 25-year-old Franciscan brother become an ASP.Net software developer?

JonathanI graduated high-school at 13 and became a franciscan brother in a teaching order while pursuing a PhD in Foundations of Mathematics in Russia and teaching myself theoretical computer science and a number of programming languages. Academically, my background is excellent, having attended many of ...

sigh. I just read this more closely
Just to be sure - You're not connected to the "Don't brainsize me, bro!" 'Jonathan' are you? stackoverflow.com/users/116906/jonathanhaywardJim G. 12 hours ago
the similarities are... striking :|
Q: How can a conference handle harassment outside the conference?

MelissaIn the past a conference I've been involved with had a problem with one presenter calling another presenter a gendered slur on Twitter preceding the conference. At the time we had no code of conduct at all, but we were thinking of adopting the one based on either Drupalcon's. But I am not sure th...

this would be better as Should not how dont you think?
@enderland you mind if i ask you a quick question?
3:31 PM
I have a phone interview tomorrow for a company, its step 1 of three, the second one is a technical interview, the third is a HR interview, so i'm not really sure what to expect from the phone interview, not having had an interview before, and not being able to ask my coworkers as the boss is about 2ft away, that leaves the people who i can ask as the contents of this room!
I think they generally are more screenings rather than interviews
when I had one it felt like tthey were basically making sure I was telling the truth on my resume
to check im not the type to run around stabbing?
is it just 30min?
yeah just 30 min
3:36 PM
my guess is it'll be pretty informal, just more of a "make sure this person put legit information on resume" type of thing
ahh gotcha, that's alright then,
I wouldn't be overly worried
have some questions you are interestd in asking though
I'll make sure to write them down, otherwise i'll forget no doubt
I was even lucky enough to get a forewarning of what I need to do in the technical interview, and i have no doubts I will get through the HR process, so hopefully, this could go well
3:55 PM
yeah. honestly being prepared is a big deal
it's not as important for a phone interview but having meaningful questions is still a "oh this person cares about our company!" to anyone who is on the phone
I am interested in knowing what projects they are currently working on, would it be out of place to ask for example 'What is a project you are currently working on?' i dont want them to say client names and the intrinsics of it of course, but ie. we are building a messaging system to fetch data from a SQL Server database when requested by web page X

^Those types of responses
you could phrase it like, "what are some of the development challenges you currently face?"
though if you have an HR'y type person you might get a more generic answer
thats perfect thankyou, im not sure what this guy's position is, unfortunately
so i will wing it as to which to ask when he tells me his role at the start or the interview, i hope
you could also ask more general questions about work environment too
i plan to, i.e they say they use .net 4 but still use SQL 2005, so im curious why one kept moving forward and the other didnt
4:37 PM
again looking for volunteers to put "draw attention" bounty on a request about fake hotness score. I plan to do it myself on Monday, but won't mind if someone else does, to make it look even more like a community effort...
For those interested, here's an explanation why I consider this important. And, if you plan a bounty please don't forget to pick the value from dropdown - I'd recommend minimal value
sory gnat, mine was a one shot, not enough rep to bounty anymore
@RhysW your was a nice shot, I remember. :) Also, you were the first to bounty it, like Neil Armstrong on the moon! meta.stackoverflow.com/posts/192046/revisions
@gnat it has been ongoing a while now!
5:05 PM
@gnat done. only 50 rep though since I'm rep poor on M.SO :)
@gnat I didn't realize you could see bounty history in question revision history
Q: Should I talk to the V.P.?

Suamerethis is my first post at the "Workplace" subdomain of StackExchange. I'm a "Software Engineer" at this company. One step below the top tech level "Senior Software Engineer", though in my career experience, I am a Senior, just joined this company. The next higher position is in the management a...

this is NARQ
1 hour later…
6:24 PM
@jmort253 or other mods, this question is a good candidate for comment cleanup, lots seems to be back and forth either accusing the OP or discussing among themselves, which really should have been in chat,
Q: Should I call in sick if I am fatigued?

EkodevI recently started a new job and at the interview they agreed to give me 1 week paid vacation and half a holiday. I worked one week there, took the holiday and tomorrow I should come back to work there. But during the holiday I was unable to rest properly, I didn't sleep well and in the first we...

2 hours later…
8:19 PM
All the comments on that question should go
@enderland Actually I think that could be a good question is changed to I am a mid level engineer How can i develop a working relationship with senior management
@gnat I feel accepted answers are a fine social contract, but not a good data point for question or answer quality. I totally agree
@Chad so do I. Good approach, isn't it. It actually was studying this part that helped me finalize the feature request; that was the missing link I couldn't figure for more than half year since I first discovered that something wrong is going on there. I think there's a lot of good stuff in the hotness formula... and a little of a bad one I'd like to see fixed
@enderland thanks! 50 is OK, good enough to attract eyeballs and educate people about the issue. And, especially, to demonstrate community support. Revisions history shows 6 bounties from 6 of us as of now, it feels... great
in The Whiteboard, Aug 29 at 16:45, by gnat
@JimmyHoffa thank you! @GlenH7 it looks like me and you will have to wait in line. :) Gee it's likely first time in my life when it feels good having to wait in line
questions here could be really good examples for "get into the hotness question" too
if you wanted we could probably even collaborate and get one
9:08 PM
@enderland are you talking about example(s) from Workplace? I for one think it would be helpful to get an analysis for these. By the way are you aware that two of Workplace questions made it into sticky questions list, one of the data sources I used in feature request?
Q: Don't let questions stick to the top of the hot questions list forever

Mad ScientistI've noticed that some very highly upvoted questions stay in the list of hot questions (also displayed in the Stack Exchange menu on the top left) for a very long time, often for several days. One example would be this question on Programmers which is still in the hot questions list (though prett...

> Is it rude to leave an interview early if you have already made your decision?, for 12 days now.
> How should I deal with an employee who has slept with my wife? for 10 days now
@gnat we've had a lot of questions here hit that because we tend to get a lot of upvotes
9:32 PM
@enderland yes, but not only that. You see, at SO, in popular tags, sheer amount of active users could totally blow us out of the game vote wise. This doesn't happen though, their questions don't get that hot very often, and I believe main reason for this, they have easier criteria for answers deletion, which in turn, tames the impact of collider formula bug...
@Sklivvz yeah I heard about that. I think rules allowing mods to unilaterally delete meh answers do a good job of taming the problem, be it concrete-programming at SO or famous back-it-up at Skeptics. At sites I am active though (Programmers and Workplace), such formal rules are hard to impossible to establish. I for one would not want to rely on mod discretion splitting meh and okay answers neither at Programmers nor at Workplace (with all due respect). — gnat Jul 26 at 11:52
The topics accepted by Programmers and TWP are... problematic when it comes to objective evaluations of answers. But then, that's why these sites exist...Shog9 Jul 26 at 15:10
9:43 PM
Q: Allow users to sever connections between accounts

Mad ScientistThis feature request is inspired by the question on Programmers.SE on whether it is appropriate to ask an interview candidate for their Stack Overflow user. Stack Overflow is a site aimed at professional programmers, and it is used by some employers and some employees to examine or showcase the...

similar question at TWP meta: Can you add an ask anonymously feature for Stack Exchange sites like this and onstartups? (note also ones in it's "linked" section: "How can I remove this (The Workplace) account association from other stack exchange sites so that It cannot be traced back to me at my office?" etc) — gnat 27 mins ago
10:26 PM
@gnat well people don't UV questions questions quite as much on StackOverflow

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