English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

@Robusto Is that a normal thing to be able to remember? I don't remember learning to read at all, except that I could read print and not cursive, and always had to run to my mom whenever anything in cursive appeared.

Nice.

I remember writing gibberish that looked like letters before I could write.

All children do.

That's what makes vertical prehension so important.

Really?

Funny.

Vertical what?

Pens?

There were some books that had cursive letters written by the characters in the beginning of the chapters, but I can't remember which they were (perhaps Boxcar Children or Babysitters' Club). Frustrating things.

6:13 PM

Aww.

@Cerberus Prehension. Motor coordination that allows writing (etc) on a vertical surface.

Life can be tough.

@Kit OK got it.

@Cerberus And yes, that's one of the many things I've learned at my new job.

I get to revel all day in early childhood literacy interventions.

So I can be suitably shocked when my son says...

(insert story about how amazing my child is here)

Heh.

Inteventions?

Is that like: You're not literate enough! You WILL have storytime!

I suppose there's more to it than that, right?

6:17 PM

@aedia — I don't know if it's normal to remember. I only know I can't do it for English, or even for languages that use the Western alphabet. I can't even do it for Japanese anymore. But if I see a page of Hindi, say, I'm right back there. Or Arabic. Or Hebrew. Etc.

I remember learning the Latin letters. But not what it actually felt like.

Same for Greek.

@Robusto Well, I don't star my own messages, and I can't take responsibility for others' actions.

And I'm still half there for Cyrillic.

Hai!

@RegDwight — I know, right?

Looks like we can take Los Mongrils Locos.

6:19 PM

If people want to star my crap, so be it. Me, I merely post it. Don't shoot the piano player.

Same.

@aedia No, more like "English is confusing as hell, so have some extra practice."

What kind of kids?

@RegDwight — If you could star your own messages, I guess you'd be Turing complete.

@Cerberus You talking to me? What kind of kids are in the interventions?

6:21 PM

Yes!

@Cerberus You only ever need абвгдеёжзийклмн. The rest of the alphabet is overrated. I mean, come on, if those other letters were important, certainly they would come first, not last!

@RegDwight Sounds reasonable. So that's all letters up to n?

@RegDwight By the way, what kind of a main deck are you using?

@Cerberus I have two main decks. Xeno and Bloodthirsty. The former has strong cards that take like 4 rounds to get enabled, the latter has relatively weak cards that can fire off right away.

@Cerberus Um, why the two empty slots?

@Cerberus Mostly children from low-income families, without much access to books, and low literacy support at home. Some special education students with learning disabilities, some ESL learners. Ages 5 to 8, focusing on 6-year-olds.

@Cerberus I will post a screenshot when I'm at work. Too much hassle right now.

6:26 PM

@RegDwight This way it is easier to get the cards in the right order. I sometimes use only Hatchet, Mawcor, and the two buildings.

Hm. Oh well. Whatever works for you.

@Kit Ah OK, that makes sense. Sounds like a good project.

My other deck:

Me, I try to adapt to the circumstances. So the Bloodthirsty deck has like 5 fixed cards, but the rest I change like every other day.

@RegDwight Every day? Based on the opponent, or just to try new things?

@Cerberus Opponents.

6:28 PM

This is my balanced deck. I change it now and then as well.

For trying new things, that's what the other four decks are there for.

Right.

There, I go crazy. And mostly fail.

I must say I find that the decks that are quickest to set up usually work best...

Consider how hard it is to beat an all-Irra deck with the rally-1 commander.

So are your BT and Xeno decks all pure?

@Cerberus Yeah. If you don't count the various strike-alls (IMP et al.).

Oh, I gotta go, supper time.

CUlaterz.

6:33 PM

They don't count.

OK bye!

Argh! Just topped out on my rep today.

27 short of my goal.

Huh? Your goal is to gain more rep than you could?

I don't think I've got anymore answers out.

Well, I could get more for accepted answers, but only 200 for upvotes, right?

Oh, right.

I can never remember those things.

Well, you don't need to. You've already got close vote power.

I want an upgrade!

I think I'll just have to wait until tomorrow.

6:37 PM

Aww.

Well, what good is closing power?

It's more like another chore to shy away from.

@Cerberus What do you mean? It's not great? Has my pursuit been in vain?

I hate to crush people's dreams...

What's with Fumble Fingers pulling out the NGrams for every question today? Did he just learn to use it or something?

Unicorns will not be dancing all over your screen.

@Kit Oh, hehe. Possibly so.

@Cerberus Well, okay, but you have admit that some people deserve it.

6:39 PM

Sure. But you seem so innocent...

Well, maybe not deserve it. Maybe just need to use the search function.

@Cerberus Don't be fooled by the big eyes that sweep back and forth, back and forth...

Oh my God, are you a psychopath, biding his time to strike?

Wait, that construction didn't quite work.

JHC on a popsicle stick, why the hell did I write this stored procedure to match a string instead of effing key? What is wrong with me?

Q: Does the letter C serve any unique purpose?

7:00 PM

Isn't this a dupe?

0

Does the letter 'C' make any sounds that cannot be made by other letters? "Cat" could be spelled "Kat," "Cinder" could be spelled "Sinder," and "Watch" could be spelled "Watsh." Thanks!

I was about to say that, but I can't find a question with the answer "English orthography is nonsensical. Get used to it."

only as nonsensical as other Latin languages.

I'm sure I saw a broader question that included this not that long ago, but I can't find it.

It had a link to a clever Mark Twain anecdote.

The pronunciation one you linked isn't bad.

Yeah, but the one I was thinking of had essentially the same question, I think.

Q: Why does English seem to be such an illogical language

7:06 PM

4

I have been learning English since I was 4 years old, so I am pretty good at it. But a lot of newcomers find it to be extremely hard. There seem to be no rules of any sort like there are in other languages that I have learned: First of all, letters are not pronounced the way they are said out ...

grammar pronunciation logic

maybe? mentions k, c

21

Q: Does the quirky spelling in English actually make it easier to read?

I just finished reading the question asked by Bobnix, in which RegDwight referred to another question with an interesting answer by Kosmonaut. Kosmonaut refers to the great number of pictograms (Kanji or Hanzi) available in Japanese and Chinese, and mentions that the task of memorizing our weirdo...

spelling orthography reading-speed comprehension

or this one more about spelling

2

Q: Do you read the 'c' in 'kc'?

For example: clickcub clickcube clickcrab clickcrate clickcone In which of those cases do you read the 'c' and not?

pronunciation compounds

@aedia This one has the same Mark Twain bit, but posted directly in the answer rather than as a link in a comment.

this one's more specific though. I can't find your more general one with the ... oh good you've found it

Of course, I still can't vote to close it. Soon though, soon.

@aedia Thanks. What did you search for?

Ooo. I just earned a pretty silver badge, completely by surprise!

@Kit Um. "orthography" then "spelling" then "k,c" which seemed to bring up things by at least one of the letters, then I don't remember :)

I'm an impatient searcher.

@aedia You're terrific. Want to finish my project for me?

7:13 PM

@Kit Oooh congrats!

@Kit Hahaha! I don't think you want me. Databases were my weak point.

Can you type?

Uh-oh. Monitor's got a vicious blue stripe on the righthand side.

And it's not mine...

7:34 PM

6 pages down, 26 stored procedures updated.

Not bad for a day's work.

who here pronounces 'cot' and 'caught' identically?

@Jez Not it.

not it?

@Jez = "Not I" or "Not me"

where did 'it' come from?

7:39 PM

Kid games.

Random House dictionary example just about pronounces them differently

but nowhere near as differently as my RP

RP?

received pronunciation

Received Pronunciation! I know something!

Oh. I see.

7:41 PM

i reckon it must be more difficult for learners to understand Americans because generally a lot of these mergers that have happened are in US english. the only slight benefit of US pronunciation is perhaps being rhotive

@Kit My hooves sometimes get in the way.

so 'caught' and 'court' will sound different, but the same in RP

@Alan You look like a pleasant fellow! What brings you to our room today?

@Jez Is that English?

@Jez I thought I had the caught-cot merger, but now I think I don't.

Perhaps I've recovered.

RP is like "standard English dialect"?

Oh, Queen's English.

7:45 PM

@jez: I think you meant to say NON-rhotive, in relation to most American dialects.

@aedia — You actually have a problem with that question?

@Robusto No, not the old one. But the new "does C serve any purpose" one seemed kind of the same as the older ones, so I was trying to find the older ones that could help answer it

@Kit: The idea of RP is that it is the dialect of English that is understood and recognized as English by speakers of all dialects. A dialectal Geordie (Northumbria) and, say, a dialectal Jamaican could not understand each others' speech, but both would recognize and understand an RP speaker.

@Jez: Just passing by... :-)

@AlanGilbertson I always get them confused but I think @jez is right en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

@AlanGilbertson Oh, thanks. That makes sense.

I've gotta run. TTFN!

7:50 PM

Bye, @Kit!

@aedia: I'd have referred you to the same reference, most likely. It is correct. Rhotive == the 'r' is pronounced. As a native Scot, my original dialect is rhotive. American dialects (and the South-East English dialect we call Received Pronunciation) are non-rhotive.

I think it's rhotic/non-rhotic

@AlanGilbertson But but I'm rhotic. Unicorrrrrrrrrrn.

@AlanGilbertson Nice to meet you, by the way :)

0

Q: Plural form of 'axis'

What is the correct plural form axis? I've checked an online dictionary and it says 'axes', which is strange, and not very nice. 'Axises' would be better, even 'axii' would look nicer for strange reason :)

grammatical-number

I say kill it with fire. This is peeving, because the OP has already found the answer.

As good as dead.

Q: What's the reason for the difference in pronunciation between "dispatch" and "dispatcher"?

8:25 PM

0

I checked some online dictionary and found that the pronunciations of p in dispatch and dispatcher are a little different. What's the reason or pronunciation rule for this difference?

pronunciation

Our only unanswered question has three close votes.

@Cerberus WTF? A five-page poem?

@Cerberus I flagged the hell out of that, man. You bet I did.

Sowwy...

I couldn't resist.

I'll abridge it now.

@Cerberus Only abridge it if you're going to answer the question too. Otherwise, comments for you, naughty dog!

I refuse to answer it! It's a pretty useless question.

Yes, I'm back already, and a surprise "accept" from a question I answered last week means I might actually crest 3k today!

7 to go, baby!

@Cerberus I'm sure it's a dupe.

8:35 PM

Might very well be one...

@Kit — Dude, we totally can't even remember when we were 3K. Not even @Cerberus can.

@Robusto Man, why you gotta be all like that and shit?

Sometimes I just gotta be "that guy" ... sorry.

Be excited for me. Let me be part of your elite force.

Come on. I own an etymological dictionary.

There are many things I get excited about. Like getting paid.

8:40 PM

I know the difference between linguistics and semiotics.

@Kit You WHAT!?

@Robusto Whether he can remember it depends on which head you're talking to.

Probably none of them.

Well, whatever you do, don't say "Bite me!" to @Cerberus.

That would indeed be unwise...

8:42 PM

Must resist... must not star...

licks teeth

@Cerberus You can't possibly be deaf in all six ears.

Hmm, deaf? I'd come a long way, but, no.

It's his sense of smell that has me worried.

Q: This weekend vs Next weekend

0

Imagine that it's Monday, the 1st. The weekend would be the 7th & 8th. How do you refer properly to the coming weekend, "This weekend" or "Next weekend"? I believe that using "next weekend" would refer to the 14th & 15th and "this weekend" would refer to this week's end. Technically the ...

terminology

This is a dupe, right?

8:45 PM

Smell? What about memory?

14

Q: What day is next Tuesday?

At what point does next Tuesday mean the next Tuesday that will come to pass and no longer the Tuesday after the Tuesday that will come to pass`? And, when does the meaning switch back?

meaning idioms

Miss

what does it mean "Your message must be approved by the group owner before being sent to the group.

"

does it mean , my message will not see by others ?

@Cerberus — Obviously you can't even remember that you're not an elephant.

@Miss It means that it has to be reviewed and approved first.

@Miss It will be seen if the group owner (person who created the group) decides that it is okay.

Miss

ohh i see

8:48 PM

@Robusto Ooh, so that's what that trunk is.

@Cerberus — Yeah. Dogs don't have trunks. Not even for swimming. Write it down.

@Robusto Can't remember he's not an elephant? Why would he have a trunk then?

He doesn't. He just can't remember.

Right. Got it.

@aedia: Aye, I'm rrrandomly rrrhotive myself. You should hear my rendition of "The engines will neverrrr take Warrrrp 7, Captain!" :-)

8:53 PM

@Robusto Oh, so it's not a trunk. Confusing.

@Cerberus Just. don't. lick. it.

@Cerberus — Stop playing with it or you'll go blind.

Interesting idea...

Both.

If you play with it, mummy will take it away.

Whaaat!

8:56 PM

I love Kosmonaut's answers. "Unvoiced uvular fricative." sigh I'll have to write that one down in the dirty talk notebook for my husband.

@Robusto I see you have some unresolved youth trauma...

Who said anything about "youth"?

@Kit Take care not to bruise his manliness!

@Cerberus Whose?

@Cerberus — If it can be bruised, it ain't manly. I'm just saying.

8:58 PM

@Kit Your husband's... but never mind!

@Cerberus I think you're the one who should take care not to bruise your manliness.

@Robusto Good point. Try to get people to understand that!

@Kit I'm not whispering "unvoiced uvular fricative" under the covers!

By the way, we should rename this room the Married room.

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/…

Just everyone here is married all the time.

@Cerberus "Under the covers." How quaint. You don't have children, do you?

9:01 PM

@z7sg I feel a strange tingling sensation...

Q: Does "generosity"/"generous" imply connotations "giving of your own resources"?

0

The question is about the context attached (or rather not attached) to the term "generosity"/"generous" (defined in Merriam-Webster as "liberal in giving"). The question is, is there a widely/universally understood context of "giving of your own resources" (and not someone else's) when using the...

meaning meaning-in-context contexts

@Kit None that I am aware of!

Can you imply a connotation?

In this case, it seems a pleonasm.

@Cerberus Oh that made my head hurt. I read that twice as "neoplasm."

Thought that was a bit harsh.

9:06 PM

Heh.

Well the difference is inconsequential.

This is the upper section of my browser window.

As you can see, I have a lot of questions on English.SE that I was going to reply to but never did.

Hi all.

@Cerberus — Tab! You're it!

Q: Does the letter C serve any unique purpose?

Why has this question already got 4 close votes?

4

Does the letter 'C' make any sound that cannot be made by other letters? "Cat" could be spelled "Kat," "Cinder" could be spelled "Sinder," and "Watch" could be spelled "Watsh." Edit: An excerpt from a comment by Kosmonaut: There is no difference between ["ch" and "tch"]; both are /tʃ/....

pronunciation alphabet

@AlainPannetier We're all pretty sure it's a duplicate.

Also, sounds like peeving to me.

A: Does the letter C serve any unique purpose?

Yes that's the tone of it. But the OP has actually got a point for at least 2 of his examples.

4

This is not a bad remark. All Germanic cognates of cat are indeed spelled with a 'k' (from P.Gmc. *kattuz, O.Fris. katte, O.N. köttr, Du. kat, O.H.G. kazza, Ger. Katze). The English word is spelled with a 'c' under the influence of Late Latin (cattus). See step 3 below. All Germanic cognates ...

9:16 PM

@AlainPannetier I saw your answer. I liked it.

May be the OP should rephrase his question.

I will put my hand in the fire for Middle Dutch variation cat.

In fact, most words with an s or k sound could be spelled either way.

Spelling wasn't uniform at all.

And I suspect that it was more or less the same with the other European languages...

You're in a better place than me to judge Middle Dutch. Erasmus and many other Latin scholars were all Dutch after all. So that the Latin influence explanation could actually also be true for Middle Dutch.

@Cerberus — But what if you sat on a cat?

@Robusto Can we please not talk about sitting on cats? It makes me uncomfortable.

9:22 PM

@Robusto I'd ride on it to the end of the rainbow.

:P

Have any of you heard of a cat-putting?

@AlainPannetier I'm not sure it had much to do with Latin, at least not at that time: k and c were just interchangeable in most words with a /k/ sound.

Ok, gotta go find a cat to sit on. TTYL.

Pudding?

Bai!

So why is it English has so many Cs where German has Ks ? Just curious. Does Latin have Ks ?

9:25 PM

What is this emoticon? :3

Latin has very few words with k.

It is just that spelling conventions only began to be established after the Middel Ages as regards c v. k.

May be LL under the influence of Odoacre and Theodoric.

@Kit: I never got that one either.

@AlainPannetier LL?

Late Latin

Oh.

I don't think Late Latin had any more k's than classical Latin.

9:28 PM

Late Latin

Late Latin is the scholarly name for the written Latin of Late Antiquity. The English dictionary definition of Late Latin dates this period from the 3rd to the 6th centuries AD extending in Spain to the 7th. This somewhat ambiguously defined period fits between Classical Latin and Medieval Latin. Although there is no scholarly consensus about exactly when Classical Latin should end, nor exactly when Medieval Latin should begin, Late Latin is characterized (with variations and disputes) by an identifiable style. Being a written language, Late Latin is not identifiable with Vulgar Latin. Th...

I don't think it ever had more than a few after the early Republic.

I have never seen k's in Latin except in perhaps a dozen words, neither in Antiquity, nor in the Middle Ages.

Well, there are always exceptions; but there was no significant use of k's.

A: What is the correct word to accompany " A survey..." ?

2

Standard usage is A survey of... ...though I quite like @Peter Shor's suggestion XYZ Systems: A survey, which to my mind simply oozes precision with no wasted words.

Am I crazy?

The OP asks whether he should use "survey of" or "survey on." FF gives NGram for "standard usage."

But that assumes that the two phrases have the same meaning, right?

Well, at first glance the Ngram seems useful...

@Kit Yes, probably.

@AlainPannetier These are all the Latin words with a k that are in my (simple) dictionary:

kalendarium
Karthago
karus
katholicus
quotkalendis

@Cerberus, Yes I've seen kalendae for Calendae.

Lewis & Short (great dictionary) gives these:

Kalendae Lewis & Short, Elem. Lewis 397 383 the day of proclamation, Calends, first day of the month
Kalendalis Lewis & Short 3 0 which fall due on the Kalends
Kalendarium Lewis & Short 3 0 a fortune, a whole estate
Kalendarius Lewis & Short 3 0 of
Kalo Lewis & Short 0 0 [unavailable]
Karthago Lewis & Short 0 0 [unavailable]
Koppa Lewis & Short 0 0 a letter of the original Greek alphabet
merkedonius

9:37 PM

Cannot blame it on the Greeks.

@Kit sings You may be crazy, but it just may be a lunatic we're looking for.

@AlainPannetier Yes, that is the most frequent word with a k in Latin.

K and qoppa were used in archaic Latin.

@aedia You are too kind, Mr. Joel.

Later they were simplified as c in nearly all words.

qoppa was actually dropped from the Greek alphabet as well (like digamma)

Now guess what. There are very few words with a 'k' in Old English right ?

Do you want to know one ?

kalend.

Can that be a coincidence ?

9:44 PM

Heh.

What do you mean? What connection are you trying to research?

This is the full letter K in Niemeyer's dictionary of Mediaeval Latin:

K
keminusy v. 2. caminus.
kernellare, kernellus, v. quarn-.
kerno, cherno (genet, -onis) (germ.): seigle — rye. Maldra de chernone. Wartmann, UB. S.~Gallen, I no. 93 (a. 780). Ibi saepius.
kevilla, v. cavilla.
kidellus, ke-, ka- (anglosax.): treillis a piche — fish-trap. Magna charta a. 1215, c. 33, Stubbs, Sel. ch.^, p. 297.
killagiutn : droit de mouillage — keelage. S. xiii, Angl.
kilstrlo, V. gilstrio.
kyrialls(< kyv'ms) : de Dieu — of God. V. metrica Wilfridi, Mabillon, Ada, IV pt. 1 p. 725.

What I'm saying is that the theory positing that the 'c' in OE initially comes from the Latin way or spelling introduced by the 7th c. Christianisation shows to be right. Even the exception show that.

The exceptions you list seem to be loanwords from Germanic languages into Latin.

Or Greek Kyrius

@AlainPannetier Oh, that is most probably right; I think Germanic script took most of it from Latin.

It's just that the choice for c or k (or c or s) wasn't significant any more in many words by the late Middle Ages.

I don't know enough about the history of spelling of German. Unfortunately.

@AlainPannetier I was told that Kalendae came from archaic spelling, when Latin still used k extensively.

@AlainPannetier Neither do I. It is probably a mixture of Gothic runes, Latin letters, and bits from Greek.

But mostly Latin, I think.

And I don't know where the runes came from: they probably have a shared ancestor with Latin script.

My reading for tomorrow... ;-)

9:54 PM

Hehe.

Runes come from Etruscan.

Really?

I believe Etruscan script was taken from the Phoenicians?

remember the trade between Celts and Etruscan

Salves for wine basically.

Right (not really, but it sounds logical, since Celts were everywhere).

Not in direct line.

One stop in Ischia/Pythekoussai.

9:55 PM

Okay, but probably through Greek?

Oh.

Yes

Right.

It's funny that they wrote from right to left, or so I seem to remember.

I have a t-shirt from Volterra (velatri) with the Etruscan alphabet on it.

I forgot whether left-to-right had been established in Greek by the 8th century.

Probably not completely.