Genealogy Conference

I've heard mixed things about that. I use Family Historian to hold my conclusions and GenQuiry (of course :) ) to manage my in-progress research. And a bunch of other programmes as well for different specialised tasks. (I'm not of the school of thought that wants one-ring-to-rule-them-all/one programme to do everything.

If lkessler turns up, it will be interesting to explore that topic -- one programme versus many.

Verbeia

rough notes I usually keep on Notebooks for iPad 6 by Alfonso Schmidt

i should point out I am on my iPad at the moment and have a bad habit of hitting Return prematurely

ColeValleyGirl

11:15 AM

Really rough notes -- or things I've found and haven't processed yet -- go into OneNote (which I suspect is similar) but I try to get everything into GenQuiry as quiickly as I can. I know from experience that if I don't do that things spiral out of control. I'm a pack-rat for information.

Verbeia

... And as mentioned in one of my answers, I have been using Excel to manage the process of disambiguating multiple candidates.

ColeValleyGirl

Ditto. I have a number of Excel spreadsheets with candidates listed, classified, colour coded, annotated...

I have the kind of mind that likes to slice and dice and sort and filter data.

Verbeia

I quite like Family Tree but I'm hardly an expert. I don't believe in switching from package to package trying to find the holy grail. Version 7 does everything I need and I much prefer the control over tree and report printing compared with online offerings.

I am an economist so slicing and dicing data comes pretty naturally to me, too :)

ColeValleyGirl

Don't get me started on online offerings -- I want to control who edits my data. (I don't mind publishing it online, and if others want to take it and use it, great, but I want control of the rigour of the research.

And I know what you mean about the fruitless search for the holy grail -- I started with Family Historian back at version 3 and have never seriously been tempted to move -- yes, it has flaws, but all the packages do -- there'll never be a perfect fit to what I want. If I'd started with something else back then, I'd probably still be with that too.

What i do like about FH is the scripting language in version 5 which means it's extensible by anyone who wants to write a plug-in. And the native data format is GEDcom (with all its flaws) so I can easily find other programs to operate on the database directlty like GenSmarts.

Verbeia

The one problem I have with Synium Family Tree is that they switched to iCloud syncing and it doesnt work for me

ColeValleyGirl

11:22 AM

iCloud syncing? Is that like DropBox? I'm not familiar with the Mac world so much.,

Verbeia

It's more than that, it does your calendar and contacts etc. you can also sync files with it but the app times out when I try to get it to see the tree files on my iCloud storage.

The company have been quite responsive but so far they haven't worked out a fix

ColeValleyGirl

That would be annoying... Although if the company is responsive that's a start.

Verbeia

i am hopeful they will fix it in the next major version or offer a wifi alternative, which is how the previous version worked. They have announced that a new version is being released in the northern hemisphere fall.

ColeValleyGirl

Do you publish your research online anywhere? Or share a tree as cousin-bait?

Hello Luke.

American Luke

Hello all

ColeValleyGirl

11:29 AM

We started without you.

Verbeia

My in-laws tree is public but my own family's tree is not (they are currently on separate ancestry.com accounts, which is a bit crazy but my partner and I started working on our own trees before working out I had more of a knack for it)

Hi Luke

American Luke

@ColeValleyGirl Np

ColeValleyGirl

Yes, my partner started first. we have separate websites of our own to publish our results so far, and a single ancestry account which has my tree associated with it. I can't remember if I coould associate multiple tress -- must look into it.

I got one of my best contacts ever through my ancestry tree -- a second cousin on my mother's side whose father knew her personally. She's lost contact with her family back in the 50s and wouldn't talk about them, so it was a great breakthrough.

American Luke

I use GRAMPS

Verbeia

Yes, you can have more than one tree on ancestry.com, I have seen others with multiple trees. Right now I have my own tree and then gave myself editor access to my partner’s. I also have contribute access to a friend's tree since we worked out that we both have ancestors from Ballaugh in the Isle of Man. It's a small parish so we must be related somehow.

ColeValleyGirl

11:34 AM

@Verbeia There's a small parish in Pembrokeshire with a bunch of James families around 1800. I've in contact with the descendants of at least 3 lines (and I know there's a fourth) and we must be related somehow. We just can't work out how.

And now that's in order.

@AmericanLuke what do you like about GRAMPS.

American Luke

It's really the only software I've used, so not much too compare it too, but it's rather organized

If I want X data I can usually find it right away without having to sift through my entire tree

Verbeia

@AmericanLuke I assume it is cross platform? I never looked into GRAMPS.

American Luke

It's also open-source, so there a lot of helpful plugins for it

@Verbeia I don't know, but I presume it is, let me check

gramps-project.org/download

> Gramps is primarily developed for Linux and UNIX-like operating systems, but it is also available for Windows and Mac OSX.

ColeValleyGirl

If I was starting out now, I'd look at it.

I did try out TNG for publishing my conclusions on the 'net, but didn't got on with it.

Could I use GRAMPS and restrict who could edit stuff?

American Luke

@ColeValleyGirl When I started out, I didn't know there was genealogy software and did everything in MS Word

ColeValleyGirl

11:40 AM

You do have the excuse of youth.

Verbeia

I see now. It looks good, but on a cursory look it seems like Mac Family Tree has most of the same features.

American Luke

It was ugly and really bad because I never wrote down sources (which is still hurting me now)

ColeValleyGirl

Ah the lost Yugoslavian?

American Luke

???

ColeValleyGirl

@Verbeia I think most packages have (quite a big) core of similar features, and a few differentiating features. I'd love better structured citations in FH, for example, which (I believe) FTM does well.

@AmericanLuke Didn't you post a question about losing the source for some Yugoslavian ancestor or am I misremembering?

Verbeia

11:42 AM

Source management seems to be the feature that splits the good packages from the not so good.

ColeValleyGirl

4

Q: What steps should I take to retrieve lost sources?

I've lost my sources for an individual. Either I never wrote it down or it's been lost by my software (probably the former). I realized this when I came back to this individual the other day and saw the birth recorded as in Yugoslavia about 1864. For those who know their history, this is a prob...

Verbeia, yes. FH suffers because it's native data format is GEDcom, so it can't be better than GEDcom in that regard.

American Luke

@ColeValleyGirl Yup. I'm only slightly Yugoslavian. Mostly German-Russian :P

ColeValleyGirl

And the differing approaches that different packages are taking just makes data exchange all the harder.

Verbeia

What are the Gedcom limitations? I started my Mac FT trees from Ancestry.com Gedcom exports and got plenty of source info ok.

American Luke

GEDCOM

GEDCOM (an acronym standing for GEnealogical Data COMmunication) is a proprietary and open de facto A GEDCOM file is plain text (usually either ANSEL or ASCII) containing genealogical information about individuals, and meta data linking these records together. Most genealogy software supports importing from and/or exporting to GEDCOM format. However, some genealogy software programs incorporate the use of proprietary extensions to the GEDCOM format, which are not always recognized by other genealogy programs, for example the GEDCOM 5.5 EL (Extended Locations) specification. In February ...

The section on "limitations" outlines most of them

ColeValleyGirl

11:48 AM

The GEDcom data structure for sources has a Title, a short title, an author, a publication place, and a link to a repository, and not much else. So you have to create a full (structured) citation in the title. And FH doesn't help you do that.

American Luke

> The GEDCOM specification requires that each event or attribute is associated with exactly one individual or family.

This would really hurt me if I ever moved my data because GRAMPS can share events

ColeValleyGirl

@AmericanLuke I disagree with that description of limitations for GEDcom -- you don't need to duplicate all the census information if it's associated with multiple people -- you just record it one in the source record (text from source r some such title) and then link the source to the census event for each individual.

And now we're getting way off topic!

Verbeia

Well it's sort of on topic because it relates to the way different software handles sourcing and other issues.

American Luke

Yes, but GRAMPS would share the census event, so there'd be one event for maybe a dozen people

> Some genealogy programs, such as GRAMPS and The Master Genealogist, have elaborate database structures for sources that are used, among other things, to represent multi-person events. When databases are exported from one of these programs to GEDCOM, these database structures cannot be represented in GEDCOM due to this limitation

Verbeia

I do sometimes wonder if my sourcing is adequate. I am still cleaning up some legacy from my ancestry tree where I thought it would be easiest to put FamilySearch urls in the description field.

ColeValleyGirl

11:52 AM

Yep, it could be a problem. For my package (FH) somebody has written an add-on to automate the data-entry where one event names several people. It creates the source entries and all the necessary events and attributes for all the involved people. it's invaluable.

Don't familysearch change their URLs?

Verbeia

As far as I can tell, Mac Family Tree adheres more to the Gedcom approach. Events apply to a single person or family.

ColeValleyGirl

I probably go over the top for my sourcing. In my (copious) spare time, I'm reconstructing my main conclusion file with the sources all impeccably (maybe?) specified.

American Luke

Verbeia

@ColeValleyGirl I don't think so. Certainly I've never had a problem with them changing, but I've only been doing this for just over a year.

American Luke

Here's a screenshot of one event being shared by many people

ColeValleyGirl

11:54 AM

When they shifted form the old site to the newsite, the top level domain changed (I think).

American Luke

I think there's a GRAMPS plugin that converts all of the old site URL's to the new site URL's

ColeValleyGirl

@AmericanLuke I would have single source that was the basis for recording that immigration event for all those individuals, and could view all the records linked to that source if i wished to.

American Luke

The beauty of open-source :)

ColeValleyGirl

FH has (1) an open-source data-structure (GEDcom) and (2) an open source scripting language (LUA) with a library of data-access routines provided by FH's developer. Best of both worlds. What are the charting facilities likein GRAMPS?

American Luke

Do you mean output methods?

ColeValleyGirl

11:59 AM

I mean facilities for drawing trees and other diagrams. It's one of FH's strength. YOu can even use a tree diagram as the main data entry screen.

American Luke

GRAMPS has four in-program diagrams (pedigree, graph, timeline, and fan chart)

It also has at least one or two dozen default output methods

ColeValleyGirl

what do you mean by 'output method'?

American Luke

For example, outputting the tree as a pdf

Verbeia

Mac/iPad Family tree has a nice interactive tree for adding people and basics details. If you want to add sources to those details you have to go to the person edit screen.

American Luke

GRAMPS makes extensive use of popup windows

ColeValleyGirl

12:03 PM

In FH, you can work from a tree diagram and call up the 'property box' for an individual and navigate form there (and back) to the relevant source or media records.

Verbeia

But it means you can add a lot of people quickly and then go back and fill in sources and other details as you get them.

@ColeValleyGirl ok, that sounds a lot like how Mac Family Tree works.

ColeValleyGirl

I suspect it's a very popular way of working.

Verbeia

It makes sense because often you get evidence that more than one person existed, say the parents names on a baptism record, and you get other details about the later, but you want to put a stake in the ground to remind yourself to research them more thoroughly.

American Luke

@Verbeia Yeah GRAMPS has a feature somewhat like that too

ColeValleyGirl

As soon as I get a source, I record all the people it mentions -- even if that's all I know about them at the time (their name and their 'role' in what the source documents).

American Luke

12:10 PM

When I started, I wouldn't record anyone else that I didn't think was related (boarders, etc.)

ColeValleyGirl

And then you discovered somebody was related and had to go back and rework?

American Luke

I've changed since then, but I still lost a bit of data

@ColeValleyGirl Actually, no, but I could :P

Sometimes I contemplate starting all over again from scratch to get it right, but that's a lot of work

Hello @lkessler

lkessler

Good morning.

So what's everybody talking about?

ColeValleyGirl

We're talking about the main software packages we use (and how we use them). So far, we have: GRAMPS, Farmily Historian+GenQuiry, and Synium's Mac Family Tree 7.

Verbeia

@AmericanLuke that family of Feathers in my in laws' tree showed me that boarders can matter. Census takers had different ways of handling illegitimacy. So to be on topic, software needs notes fields to handle all those "this record said she was a widow but that clearly wasn't true" moments.

ColeValleyGirl

12:14 PM

I guess you use Behold :)

lkessler

I don't use anything right now. Behold's not an editor yet.

The last program I used was Generations. I was a beta tester for that.

ColeValleyGirl

I'd forgotten that... It's version 2 when editing is coming, isn't it?

lkessler

When editing is added, I'll call it version2.

ColeValleyGirl

One thing I mentioned close to the start that I'd be interested in discussing with you is the 'one-programme-to-do-everything' versus 'multiple-programmes-for-different -tasks' approach.

And I'm going to make a coffee -- back in a tick!

American Luke

I just do the one program for everything

I don't really need separate programs at the stage I'm at

lkessler

12:17 PM

I like multiple programs better ... if they can communicate. Which means we need a good transfer standard which FHISO is starting to work on.

ColeValleyGirl

@AmericanLuke what do you do if you want to do something GRAMPS won't do?

American Luke

I actually haven't run into that yet, but I'd probably make a note in the program and move on

ColeValleyGirl

@lkessler I agree. If all you have is a single hammer, everything looks like a nail. Whereas if you have a full toolbox, you can do each job much better.

American Luke

If it happens again, I might start looking into another program

Verbeia

Its interesting that there are two people here who were unhappy enough with existing offerings that they wrote their own. What were the things that you found most lacking in existing products? @ColeValleyGirl I am guessing it was source management for you. Did I understand that correctly?

American Luke

12:19 PM

@ColeValleyGirl I suppose I'm still small potatoes :P

lkessler

The inefficiency of data entry. People spend most of their time entering their data.

American Luke

@lkessler True

How does behold fix that problem?

Verbeia

@AmericanLuke but is it a size of tree thing?

lkessler

I liked Reunion for Windows, and then Generations, because it was the easiest at data entry of the ones I looked at at the time.

American Luke

@Verbeia probably. I've only got one or two lines to ten generations

Some only four or five where I'm really stumped

lkessler

12:21 PM

Behold will work like a word processor. You see your data. You edit on it.

ColeValleyGirl

@Verbeia For me, it was the lack of facilities to manage the end-to-end research process -- from knowing you wanted to find something out, through the investigation and dead ends and 'could try that's' and 'I wonder if there's something in this recordset' through to the reaching a conclusion or set of conclusions. Most genealogy programmes are pretty good at recording a displaying conclusions, but not at the messy bit that comes first.

lkessler

@Amer

American Luke

@lkes

lkessler

Sorry, you hit enter in the box and it gets sent.

American Luke

I figured :P

lkessler

12:23 PM

How many different programs has everyone tried?

ColeValleyGirl

@lkessler Interesting. I've always thought the majority of my time was spent on doing research and not recording the outcomes.

Verbeia

@ColeValleyGirl I have certainly noticed this, but I guess a notes field on a to do would be a reasonable approach.

American Luke

@lkessler For me it was just MS Word and then GRAMPS

lkessler

So GRAMPS became your favorite without trying any others at all??

Verbeia

I started with Ancestry's iPad app and then went to Mac Family Tree

American Luke

12:24 PM

Pretty much

ColeValleyGirl

@Verbeia For simple tasks, that worked for me. But when it got to the point that I realised I'd repeated some searches multiples times and found nothing every time I searched, I wanted soemthing to record what I'd done as well as what I had to do.

lkessler

DId you know there's about 280 full featured genealogy programs available?

American Luke

I looked around for open-source desktop software and GRAMPS seemed the most up-to-date one

Verbeia

I travel a lot for work and found that tooling around searching for family tree stuff was a pleasant thing to do while jet lagged.

American Luke

A lot of the others looked at least ten years old

@lkessler I only looked through about half a dozen

lkessler

12:26 PM

I just did an article for an Australian genealogy magazine coming out this month, and reviewed 22 different software programs.

I think there were 12 Windows, 4 Mac, 5 online and multiplatform (GRAMPS).

Verbeia

So a solution that s both iPad and Mac is pretty attractive to me. Nowadays I only travel with an iPad.

ColeValleyGirl

@lkessler For recording my conclusions? I started with Family Historian and have pretty well stuck with it. When there's stuff it doesn't do well, there's usually a plug-in or add-on, or another programme that will operate on the native GEDCom file that FH produces... It's the GEDcom format I find most limiting.

American Luke

@lkessler Looking through your site now

I'm gonna have to site down and just read some reviews some time

lkessler

I think the three of you are the norm. People find a program and stick with it. Until they must switch.

ColeValleyGirl

Because the programme is so old it's unsupported, or they discover a must-have feature they can't get without switching.

lkessler

12:30 PM

For GRAMPS, there is a dichotomy. People either love it or hate it.

ColeValleyGirl

I occasionally look at what else is available, but I'm not unhappy enough to switch (plus all the data transfer problems and learning curve -- no thanks).

American Luke

@lkessler I don't know about other programs, but GRAMPS is constantly updated and is open-source, so if it doesn't do something, there's probably a plugin somewhere to do it

lkessler

@ColeValleyGirl - So what do you think are the "must-have features" that might make someone switch?

Verbeia

I think it depends how serious you want to get. I had a specific project with a deadline (grandmother-in-law's birthday), and now that's done, I know this is a hobby tat doesn't require perfection.

So as long as there is some prospect that iPad syncing will work one day, I'll stick with Mac FT.

American Luke

@lkessler Do many desktop softwares allow custom plugins?

ColeValleyGirl

12:33 PM

Hard to say -- for some people it might be media-handling, or the sorts of diagrams that could be produced. Others (and I suspect they're a small minority) might switch for superb and flexible source and citation handling. I don't think there's any single killer feature.

lkessler

A number of them do.

Verbeia

That said, fast data entry is attractive, I think hats why a lot of people stick with ancestry. Adding people and info for hints and searches is so fast it's almost addictive.

ColeValleyGirl

@AmericanLuke I know FH does. @lkessler what others do?

@Verbeia I loath ancestry's shaky leaves. They are not reliable, but they're so seductive for people who are starting out. YOu can knot a whole tree out of totally erroneous links.

2

And don't get me started on the borg tree at FamilySearch....

American Luke

@ColeValleyGirl The only thing that saved me from ancestry was the lack of a budget

I'm glad I went with desktop

Verbeia

@ColeValleyGirl I agree, but entering sources from a search is also that easy.

ColeValleyGirl

12:37 PM

It's a great source of records, and contacts with other researchers. AFAIK, exporting a tree is not good -- all the source links get broken. (I will stand corrected if I'm wrong).

Verbeia

LI think I have been lucky that I developed a smell for bad trees very quickly, and connected with a couple of cousins who had actually done serious research that I couple replicate.

American Luke

Does anyone backup their research anywhere (web, external drive, etc.)?

lkessler

@AmericanLuke - Any program or online system that offers an API (Applications program interface) allows external programs to access the system data and is equivalent to a plug-in. Other programs offer extensions in various ways.

Verbeia

@ColeValleyGirl its even better now that they are putting scans of original parish records up. And when I exported two different gedcoms from ancestry, I did not lose my sourcing, but it doesn't retain links back to ancestry.com.

ColeValleyGirl

@AmericanLuke Obsessively. Master copy on hard disk, mirrored in the cloud (DropBox) and from there to my netbook. That includes my conclusions GEDcom, my GenQuiry file, all my source images, working spreadsheets, transcription databases, everything.

American Luke

12:42 PM

I have an external drive that automatically backs it up daily

lkessler

PAF can be considered the best-extended program of all time. They made their database format available, so hundreds of programs in the DOS days were made to access and do something (even update) PAF data.

Verbeia

@AmericanLuke Macs do auto backup very easily, and Mac Family Tree also offers iCloud sync. And most of it is still in ancestry as well, but not in sync. So even if my computer blew up I wouldn't have to start over for scratch.

ColeValleyGirl

@lkessler, On a separate topic, do you have any idea what RootsTech were looking for the year we entered? I wonder if they even looked at my package (being cynical) or whether it didn't fit their concept of advanced technology.

lkessler

They were looking for new-concept online ideas.

They didn't want desktop programs.

ColeValleyGirl

Yes, that was what I suspected -- online was the key word.

lkessler

12:45 PM

By the way, I submitted 3 proposals for talks to RootsTech 2014. One of them was "Answers to your genealogy questions" which would have talked about Genealogy & Family History Stack Exchange.

American Luke

Everything's going online these days, and I really don't like it

If the company goes bankrupt, all my info goes kaboom

ColeValleyGirl

@lkessler I tae it they didn't accept that one?

lkessler

Online isn't the panacea many people think.

2

No. They also didn't accept my 800 programs in an hour talk.

But they did accept my Genealogy on Windows Phone talk.

ColeValleyGirl

I'm going to have to go (partner getting restless for his lunch!)

@lkessler Mobile and online -- it's the way of the future. Gah.

American Luke

Maybe we're all just old fogey's sticking to the old methods of doing stuff :P

lkessler

12:47 PM

@ColeValleyGirl - Everything is out of your control that way.

American Luke

If I were to back up online, I'd backup two or three places

Verbeia

It's bedtime for me, more or less, so I had better go too. Best wishes to all.

American Luke

Adios

lkessler

Do 3 things. (1) Backup to another drive at your home. (2) Put on a pen drive and take to some other location. (3) Back up online.

That was fun. You all were here a while. I came late, so I understand you've been around 2 hours. I can go for breakfast now.

American Luke

We've still got ten minutes :P

@lkessler I already ate. I'm just preparing for soccer practice

lkessler

12:50 PM

I can stay.

Even if you stick to your program, try some of the 100's of utility programs available.

They read your GEDCOM file and can do things with it.

American Luke

Such as?

Compatibility stuff?

lkessler

GenSmarts, PAF Companion, TreeDraw, GEDxlate, GenTools, GenQuiry!!!!, FacTree, VGedX GEDCOM validator, etc.

American Luke

Your reviews site is really helpful, @lkessler

lkessler

There are so many ideas and so many different ways genealogy data could be looked at. I love some of the little programs people are putting together.

This is why I don't think you'll ever get "it all" in one program. Ideas are great.

Now we have 2 minutes left.

American Luke

Any closing thoughts, anybody?

lkessler

12:59 PM

This was the first of scheduled weekly chats?

American Luke

Yup

lkessler

I saw a comment for the time to change. In Utah, it is 5 to 7 a.m.

American Luke

We might change the time a bit so it isn't so late for the aussies or early for the americans

lkessler

... on a Saturday morning (ugh!)

American Luke

But, that would mean one of our three groups (Aussies, Mericans, or europeans) wouldn't get to participate

We'll try around and see what works

lkessler

1:01 PM

This topic (of course) was of interest to me. What's next topic?

American Luke

Alright everyone. This chat is officially over. Feel free to chat around longer if you'd like to. We'll see everyone next week

2

Q: Weekly genealogy chat!

Starting this Saturday, we will be holding a weekly genealogy chat every Saturday. It will occur at 11:00 to 13:00 UTC (figure your timezone), but if you can't make this time, feel free to drop in and share your thoughts anytime. Be sure to register yourself for the event beforehand so you get a ...

discussion featured chat

lkessler

Thanks. Bye!

American Luke

If you have an idea, feel free to list it there

Genealogy Weekly Chat #001

2 hours ago, 1 hour 57 minutes total – 236 messages, 4 users, 4 stars

Bookmarked 20 secs ago by American Luke

ColeValleyGirl

1:18 PM

@lkessler GenQuiry won't read a GEDcom file and probably never will.

lkessler

5:10 PM

@ColeValleyGirl - I'm sorry to hear that. With that news, I've now changed GenQuiry's classification from "Utility" program to "Auxiliary" Program on GenSoftReviews.

ColeValleyGirl

6:45 PM

@lkessler That's probably right -- it's in the same class as Evidentia and Clooz, Genota and such like (as per this blog post: bloodandfrogs.com/2013/07/evidence-based-genealogy.html

Genealogy Weekly Chat #001

Transcript for

Genealogy Conference