English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Are Japanese first and last names usually made up of the characters that they use in Chinese too, or rather of the true Japanese set? I can never remember the names.

Robusto

@Cerberus — What's your question?

They use the kanji for names.

Cerberus

What was Kanji again?

Robusto

Veeeeeery rarely will you see some hiragana.

漢字

Cerberus

OK so Kanji is the Chinese stuff?

Robusto

Those are the kanji for "kanji"

Aye.

Cerberus

12:07 AM

And do those Japanese names also come from words/concepts that mean the same in Chinese?

Robusto

Although they use katakana for foreign names, even if they are Japanese names.

@Cerberus Usually.

Cerberus

OK.

Thanks!

That is actually very interesting.

Robusto

The Japanese characters are derived from Chinese, and there is an intersection of the two sets that comprise identical characters and meanings, but also there are characters that are strictly Japanese and many, many that are strictly Chinese.

Cerberus

It shows that grammar, inflection, and function words usually stick around from the substrate language longer than content words? Or isn't Chinese the newer influence on the Japanese language?

@Robusto Okay, but Hiragana is not Chinese at all, right?

Robusto

Well, that is all over the map. Some are used for their sounds, some for their meanings, and so on.

Cerberus

12:10 AM

Huh?

Robusto

@Cerberus — Correct. Hiragana and katakana are not at all Chinese. They are what the Japanese use to write the syllabary, the "50 sounds" or gojuuon.

Cerberus

Can non-Chinese be considered the substrate language in Japan, or is Chinese in fact the oldest part of Japanese?

Robusto

Gojūon

The is a Japanese ordering of kana. It is named for the 5×10 grid in which the characters are displayed, but the grid is not completely filled, and, further, there is an extra character added outside the grid at the end: with 5 gaps and 1 extra character, the current number of distinct kana in a syllabic chart is therefore 46. Some of these gaps have always existed as gaps in sound: there was no yi or wu in Old Japanese, and ye disappeared in Late Old Japanese, predating the kana: the kana for e, i, and u double up for those phantom values. Also, with the spelling reforms after World War ...

RegDwight

@Cerberus They are only using the characters.

The languages are not related.

Cerberus

@Reg: Well they use the Chinese characters for some words that they borrowed from Chinese, or am I mistaken?

Robusto

12:13 AM

@RegDwight — Not 100% true. There are "Chinese" readings (sounds) of characters, and there are some words that are considered "Chinese" by the Japanese. For example, the Japanese have two sets of counting words, one native and one borrowed.

ichi, ni, san, yon (shi), go — 1,2,3,4,5 [Chinese]

RegDwight

Well yeah. Then again, we also have "French" readings in English and some words that are considered "French".

My point was simply that Chinese is Sino-Tibetan, while Japanese is God-knows-what, possibly Uralic as you pointed out once.

Robusto

hitotsu, futatsu, mitsu, yotsu, itsutsu etc. [Japanese]

Cerberus

@Reg: Yeah OK; but I thought most content words were borrowed from Chinese? Is that not true?

RegDwight

You keep asking me, while Robusto is the expert here.

Cerberus

If there has been sufficient borrowing, it is hard to say what the language "is" any more; in that case it is easier to talk about substrate and superstrate (older and newer influence, respectively).

@Reg: Fair enough.

RegDwight

12:17 AM

I didn't mean to interfere, just posted my 2cents while Robusto was looking for that link.

Cerberus

@Reg: On the contrary! You were very helpful! Haha but seriously, you were.

Robusto

Interestingly, there are also two of the "Chinese" words for 4 yon and shi, but they don't like to use shi because it also means "death"!

RegDwight

I've heard that, actually.

Like some buildings don't have a fourth floor or something.

Robusto

Japanese am strange language.

Cerberus

So would it be more accurate to describe Chinese influence as a couple of loan words, or as a superstrate language?

By the way, would questions specific to one or two languages be on topic for Linguistics.se, you reckon?

Robusto

12:20 AM

一、二、三,　四、五、六、七、八、九、十。

Those are the numbers from one to ten as they are written.

All the same as Chinese.

@Cerberus — Well, there's strate and then there's superstrate. Beyond that, we have downright homophobic.

Cerberus

@Rob: Hah! But I thought most rabid homophobes were gay?

Robusto

Funny, my keyboard snuck in a Western comma there, in the numbers list.

No. Homophones are not gay, despite what you've heard.

RegDwight

@Cerberus Once again, I think you meant Robusto there. Not all gay-related questions are to be directed @RegDwight, you know?

Cerberus

Oh. Then I will feel free to wear my tight pink shirt again. No mean fear of homophony!

Robusto

@Cerberus — It's the allophones you have to look out for.

Cerberus

12:24 AM

@Reg: Odd! I certainly didn't mean anything by that.

@Rob: Like Allosaurus?

Allosaurus

| synonyms = }} Allosaurus () is a genus of large theropod dinosaur that lived 155 to 150 million years ago during the late Jurassic period (Kimmeridgian to early Tithonian). The name Allosaurus means "different lizard". It is derived from the Greek ἅλλος/allos ("different, other") and σαυρος/sauros ("lizard"). The first remains that can definitely be ascribed to this genus were described in 1877 by paleontologist Othniel Charles Marsh. As one of the first well-known theropod dinosaurs, it has long attracted attention outside of paleontological circles. Indeed, it has been a top feat...

RegDwight

Allo-allo?

Cerberus

Yay!

René, René!

Robusto

Thesaurus Rex.

RegDwight

'Allo 'Allo!

'Allo 'Allo! is a British sitcom broadcast on BBC One from 1982 to 1992 comprising eighty-five episodes. It is a parody of another BBC programme, the wartime drama Secret Army and was created by David Croft, who also wrote the theme music, and Jeremy Lloyd. Lloyd and Croft wrote the first 6 series. Series 7 onward was written by Lloyd and Paul Adam. Lloyd and Croft were also responsible for the popular sitcom Are You Being Served?. In 2004, Allo 'Allo came 13th in Britain's Best Sitcom. A reunion special, comprising new material, archive clips and specially-recorded interviews, was broa...

Cerberus

I shall say zis only wence!

I repeat: I shall say zis only wence!

RegDwight

12:26 AM

You contradict yourself.

Cerberus

No way!

RegDwight

Way!

Cerberus

Thank you for noticing.

RegDwight

No, thank you!

Cerberus

It was a pleasure.

Do some people say "it was my pleasure"?

I was taught that that was wrong.

Robusto

12:27 AM

No, it's right. If you actually got pleasure, or are lying about it.

And what the hell are they teaching our little 3-headed doggies these days?

Cerberus

Hmm it still sounds a bit royal to me.

RegDwight

How about "it was my unpleasure"?

That's like, more honest and all.

Robusto

Yeah, like Russians would know anything about honesty.

Cerberus

It is a pleasure = I like doing x / it is an honour; it is my pleasure = I am the King and I command thus and so.

RegDwight

@Robusto No, but you teach me.

Long time.

Robusto

12:29 AM

"Thank you for helping me with that project!"
"Not at all. It was my pleasure."

RegDwight

@Cerberus I've only ever heard it as "my pleasure", plain and simple. No "it was", no kings, nada.

Cerberus

@Robusto Yeah I was told not to say that.

Robusto

Well, you were told wrong.

RegDwight

3

Q: Is "not at all" still alive and doing well?

I was taught to use "not at all" as a rather polite, standard reply to "thank you". However, I don't see it being used at all nowadays. Can I still use it? Would it be widely understood? Should I be aware of any differences between using it in British, American, Canadian, and Australian English...

Cerberus

I think it sounds a bit American, saying "my pleasure" back to "thank you"...?

RegDwight

12:31 AM

Monty Python say it all the time.

Robusto

... w/e ...

Cerberus

Now I have no idea any more.

RegDwight

@Cerberus Check the answers to that question.

Cerberus

Yeah just read 'em.

RegDwight

No American mentions "my pleasure". A Canadian does.

Cerberus

12:32 AM

Not that Robusto's fiat wasn't enough.

RegDwight

Also, this:

12

Q: Response to "Thank you!"

In my school and university I was taught to say "Not at all" or "Don't mention it" in response to "Thank you!". Now I rarely hear these phrases, but rather something like "You're welcome", "It's OK", "My pleasure", "No problem". My real life conversational experience is very poor. I often listen...

word-choice politeness esl

Robusto

You know, "it was my pleasure" is what you use when you are trying to be polite and impress someone, especially someone you want to bed later.

RegDwight

Cori is from WI.

Cerberus

@Rob: Shame on you!

Robusto

Guys ... guys ... I'm standing right here. You have one of the best resources for English as she is spoke right frickin' here — so just take my word for it, OK?

RegDwight

12:34 AM

No, that's what people do on the main site.

Cerberus

@Rob:

2 mins ago, by Cerberus

Not that Robusto's fiat wasn't enough.

RegDwight

Here in chat, we don't take your word for it. We're Commie Mutant Traitors, remember.

Robusto

Well, if you don't you're dumber than your gravatar makes you look.

RegDwight

That's unpossible.

Cerberus

Haha.

RegDwight

12:36 AM

But I can make it!

Me very good.

Cerberus

I will pay attention to how the Brits use "pleasure" from now on.

RegDwight

Puhlezha.

Cerberus

That was another odd typo... my apologies.

You know, I seem to be making weird typos much more often than the regular stuff like teh and their/they're.

I do type anough a lot. But I usually see it in time.

RegDwight

yesterday, by RegDwight

God I keep misspelling i as ea today.

yesterday, by RegDwight

Ea'm so stupead.

Cerberus

A common fact.

Robusto

12:42 AM

I gotta go. Laterz all.

RegDwight

CU.

I think I'll resume my LEGO session.

The Dom doesn't build itself.

BTW, @Cerberus, to round up our discussion about moderation, check out the answers here:

12

Q: Can we have a better name for the 10k "Moderator tools"?

I think it's a bit deceptive that a person works hard for months to get to the 10K tools, to have access to the moderator tools, to find out that all it is is analytical tools. While they are nice, I think it would be best if an appropriate name could be found for these tools, perhaps advanced st...

discussion privileges 10k-tools

That video Robert and jmort253 link to is great.

Highly recommended, because pretty much all of it also applies to ELU.

Cerberus

1:42 AM

@Reg: OK thamls fpr the link!

My internet just crashed.

Modem is displaying red led.

Using the internet on my phone now.

My phone that happens to be from 2006 or so, for those who would be interested.

I am now also sitting on my sofa with wireless keyboard and mouse and everything zoomed in on the monitor on my desk.

Again, for whoever might be interested.

RegDwight

12:56 PM

Ha, there's @Kosmonaut.

Dude, you, like, closed that question but I, like, thought it should be, like, migrated or something, you know?

Kosmonaut

1:14 PM

@RegDwight Where to?

RegDwight

SciFi.

Kosmonaut

Ah, ok... then go for it.

Robusto

Howdy all.

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut Längst erledigt.

Kosmonaut

Howdy

RegDwight

1:16 PM

I was more like informing you after the fact.

@Robusto Ahoi.

Robusto

@RegDwight — Yeah. Migrated to Russia.

Kosmonaut

@RegDwight OK

RegDwight

Russia is not SciFi.

Kosmonaut

My name is Russian SciFi.

Robusto

More Lo-Fi.

RegDwight

1:17 PM

Only the American prejudices about Russia are sci-fi, but so be it.

Kosmonaut

You mean the American factjudices.

RegDwight

We like to sci-fi your poor asses, too.

Robusto

Yeah ... with vacuum-tube technology. Russia is so retro.

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut Everything that begins with "fact" is a lie.

Also, all generalizations are true.

Kosmonaut

Nothing is true.

Robusto

1:19 PM

@RegDwight — Fact: All generalizations are true or false.

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut You're nothing.

@Robusto Hed axplod.

Robusto

@RegDwight — Another example of poorly manufactured Russian heds.

RegDwight

That's a tautology.

Kosmonaut

@RegDwight So, that means I am true.

RegDwight

No wait, that's a litotes.

Kosmonaut

1:21 PM

And you're all false.

Robusto

Litotes anagrams to "toilets" btw.

Kosmonaut

Question: what is every idiom that exists?

Robusto

Also "toilest" ... but toilets is funnier.

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut D'oh. Of course. I'm trying not to break my "I can't get it right" streak.

Robusto

@Kosmonaut — That's a great question for the board. Also ask if they can be categorized into country of origin.

RegDwight

1:23 PM

@Kosmonaut Answer: every idiom that exists is on ELU.

Robusto

@RegDwight — What about idioms that don't exist. Shouldn't those be cataloged as well?

RegDwight

That's a brilliant idea!

Robusto

I say you're showing favoritism toward existing idioms.

RegDwight

You had some coffee, I reckon?

Robusto

Yeah, among other things.

RegDwight

1:24 PM

See, I can tell.

Robusto

You should be busy cataloging non-existent idioms. All the mods should.

RegDwight

Well, for starters:

13 hours ago, by RegDwight

Авпваойцехрварждоы.

Kosmonaut

Since this is a list of phrases with recognizable words that have unrecognizable meanings, should we also have a list of phrases with unrecognizable words that have recognizable meanings?

RegDwight

You're a list of unrecognizable words with recognizable meanings.

So just xerox yourself and post it.

Robusto

OK, so I've been drinking coffee. But @RegDwight has been drinking himself. A dangerous combination.

RegDwight

1:27 PM

That is... gross.

Robusto

I know, right?

RegDwight

You ain't know nothing, son.

That's why we go over these things.

Robusto

Fact: I know or don't know things.

RegDwight

Lie: could be.

Kosmonaut

Maybe: huh?

RegDwight

1:30 PM

Huh: really?

Kosmonaut

Son: I am disappoint

Robusto

Fact or non-fact: I do or don't know things or not things.

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut You are phone.

@Robusto You forgot to negate the or.

And the not, for that matter.

Kosmonaut

@RegDwight But which one? I've always been partial to ɣ

RegDwight

You're a partial phone.

Robusto

1:31 PM

Which part? The receiver?

Are you saying Kosmonaut's catching, not pitching?

RegDwight

Five hundred years from now, some poor archaeologist will read these transcripts...

Hi there!

Kosmonaut

RegDwight

The chicks is a lie.

Robusto

Fun with phones! It's become a meme: a phone meme, or phoneme for short.

Kosmonaut

@Robusto Boooooooooo

Robusto

1:33 PM

Awww, come on. That was a little bit funny. Or not.

RegDwight

Apr 17 at 2:05, by RegDwight

Your waisting your time on our dumb asses is the perfect proof that nobody is willing to pay you.

Kosmonaut

It was slightly funny

RegDwight

Huh, I misspelled waysting.

Kosmonaut

And "yor"

Robusto

It got a groan, which is proof that it had the desired effect.

RegDwight

1:34 PM

@Kosmonaut It's ur, you NNS.

Robusto

Puns aren't about humor, they are about hostility and retribution.

Kosmonaut

My dad usually gives a nod of "I have taught you well, my son"

RegDwight

Speaking of hostility, we are lacking in the thwacks department.

It's been one week; one more to go.

Kosmonaut

Yes, we are severely thwlacking.

@martha: Do you have a lot of inbox messages?

RegDwight

I will star and pin and email that to everyone just for Martha.

Kosmonaut

1:36 PM

Just wondering, @martha.

Robusto

Apr 17 at 2:03, by Robusto

You know, I should be getting paid for these jokes. And here I am wasting them on your dumb asses.

RegDwight

See above.

Robusto

I did. I included that for the record. So that the archaeologists, etc.

Kosmonaut

You misspelled "plaid"

RegDwight

Nobody will pay you, not even in tögrögs.

The archaeologists will just dig deeper.

Or follow the links.

Itäs not like weäre entirelz unhelpful.

FFFFFF...

Stoopid kezboard.

Hi @Alain. You've come to the right place.

Alain Pannetier

1:38 PM

Hello all,

Robusto

You know, it's pretty vain to suppose that archaeologists are going to wade through these miles of shit we are pumping out here. I mean, don't they have better things to do? Won't video games be, like, totally amazing by then, sucking up 100% of everyone's time?

Kosmonaut

@AlainPannetier Hello

Alain Pannetier

I'm always a little but dizzy after I read one page of your exchanges.

Kosmonaut

I just got an email from HR saying to prepare for the fact that the coming fiscal year is a leap year, so our checks will be smaller to account for the leap day.

RegDwight

@Robusto Well, they could play TombRaider: The ELU Files.

@AlainPannetier Then read two. That helps.

You lose sensitivity after a while.

And sensibility, too.

@Kosmonaut By how many inches?

Robusto

1:40 PM

@Kosmonaut — That makes a lotta sense. More work for less pay. Thank God for the Tea Party.

Alain Pannetier

I'm more the Mithridates kind.

Kosmonaut

@RegDwight 3 bushels.

Robusto

@AlainPannetier — Is that an elven dating site? Mithridates?

RegDwight

As long as he's not the Mithridates evil...

Alain Pannetier

You should probably patent this !

RegDwight

1:42 PM

We should. But we won't. Except perhaps.

Kosmonaut

What's the inches-per-bushel to hogsheads-per-lightmile conversion factor?

RegDwight

42.

You dummy.

Seriously.

Kosmonaut

@RegDwight Carry the threeven... my god, I'm going to be rich!

Robusto

What is that in Planck lengths?

RegDwight

I could swear I've seen a similar question before.

0

Q: "ASP.NET web-based applications is my primary focus."

Is this grammatically correct? Should I use is instead of are? ASP.NET web-based applications is my primary focus.

phrases grammaticality

Kosmonaut

1:44 PM

@Robusto wooden or steel?

RegDwight

I think it was Cerberusses'.

Alain Pannetier

Sorry for throwing yet another topic in the air but today might be the day to explain that excerpt of the FAQ:

If you're wondering what to say to your fellow community members, we hear there are some pretty amazing easter eggs in chat … maybe they know how to trigger them?

RegDwight

5

Q: How do I determine subject and subject complement in "A side-effect is the spread of commercialese to other domains."?

Consider this example: Commercialese is an instrument of art, designed to enrich and invigorate our language—surely you will all agree with this—, and we should encourage newcomers to learn it. However, a side-effect is the spread of commercialese to other domains. This we must obje...

grammar numbers subject inversion complement

Robusto

@Kosmonaut — Mithril.

RegDwight

@AlainPannetier Where'd you find that?

Alain Pannetier

1:45 PM

Chat FAQs, a couple of lines below jeff's hairdo

Kosmonaut

I have no idea what that is

Beetlejuice Beetlejuice Beetlejuice

Nope.

Alain Pannetier

Might deserve it's meta question then !

RegDwight

It's too early for Easter eggs, you heathens.

Alain Pannetier

@Kosmonaut Is that the magic incantation unleashing these eggs ? ""

Kosmonaut

@RegDwight Well, what do you do to celebrate Good Friday?

Alain Pannetier

1:47 PM

"Beetlejuice Beetlejuice Beetlejuice"

Kosmonaut

@AlainPannetier Looks like no :)

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut My point precisely.

You heathen.

Kosmonaut

xyzzy

Robusto

@Kosmonaut — I dunno about you guys, but I find Good Friday is the perfect time to crucify uppity messiahs.

Alain Pannetier

I does not work if you don't shout it in front of the keyboard I was told.

Kosmonaut

1:48 PM

@Robusto You and the Romans.

Romanes eunt domus?

Cerberus

*Romanes

Robusto

@Kosmonaut Well, if it hadn't been for the Romans, there'd be no Roman Catholics. Think about it.

RegDwight

10

A: What Easter Eggs do the chat sites have?

Meta Stack Overflow/(any room): red tags Send a message consisting solely of [status-SOME_PLAINTEXT_STRING] and it will appear in chat like a moderator tag. Doing this as a reply to another message is okay, but other text or formatting will not work. Gaming/The Bridge: minigame Send the messag...

Cerberus

@RegDwight status-declined

RegDwight

@Robusto Yes, they would be speaking Mongolian.

Kosmonaut

1:49 PM

insert coin

insert coin

Robusto

@Kosmonaut — That's your answer for everything.

Alain Pannetier

@RegDwight Thx, I'll use the sandbox before showing off then !

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut You can't read, can you?

Kosmonaut

@Robusto Well it's gotten me this far.

RegDwight

Which part of Gaming/The Bridge: minigame you don't understand?

Kosmonaut

1:51 PM

Oh, I see, it means within "Gaming"

Cerberus

"Meta Stack Overflow/(any room)"

RegDwight

"Other SE sites/(any room): no easter eggs (yet)"

That is the sound of five people leaving this chat and joining the Bridge instead.

Kosmonaut

@RegDwight The part I didn't understand was "Gaming/The Bridge: minigame"

Cerberus

sound of five people being evaporized by Mario's fire balls

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut The whole nine yards, huh?

Wow. Piplz. It really works.

Take that, badp! Killed ya.

Kosmonaut

1:55 PM

̘̞̙̝̝̺̞̙̺̝̞̙̹̺̞̹̬̺̞̝̞̺̬̙̬̺̣̹̬̺̣̹̯̬̺̬̯̣́̄̀̏́̏̀̄́̂̀̏̀̄̌̀̂̏̌̂̏̄̂̏̀̄̌̏̀̄̏̀̊̏̂̌̆̌̊̂̏̆̌̂̏

̰̯̣̹̯̣̹̰̯̣̬̹̣̬̺̬̹̺̞̹̬̣̺̯̹̬̣̬̺̞̝̬̹̣̯̹̬̺̞̹̣̯̰̹̬̺̞̝̹̣̯̰̹̬̺̞̝̬̹̣̯̹̬̞̯̯̞̯̞̯̞̯̞̺̰̝̯̙̣̙̹̙̹̙̬̙̬̙̬̙̺̙̝̞̙̘̙̝̞̘̺̬̹̺̬̣̯̰̣̹̺̬̞̬̝̹̞̣̺̯̬̰̹̬̹̺̞̬̝̺̯̹̰̹̺̬̞̹̺̬̝̞̺̙̝̝̹̞̺̣̬̯̰̹̺̞̝̙̺̬̞̬̝̺̣̬̯̹̰̣̤̬̣̰̹̺̣̞̹̣̺̝̬̞̹̺̣̬̯̹̹̯̰̬̹̣̹̣̯̤̯̣̹̬̯̬̣̬̹̞̹̺̬̝̬̺̞̝̝̺̬̙̝̞̝̺̙̘̞̙̝̘̞̙̝̘̬̝̹̬̞̣̺̹̰̣̬̯̣̰̯̹̣̣̯̬̹̹̯̣̺̬̹̞̬̹̺̝̬̞̺̝̺̞̬̙̞̺̝̙̹̞̺̺̬̯̹̬̹̯̣̬̯̣̹̺̬̣̹

RegDwight

That was fun.

Kosmonaut

That was the magic of Easter.

AMAZON CLOUD Y U NO WORK

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…