English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Shopping on a Sunday?

Apr 13 at 14:11, by JSBangs

@RegDwight heathen

The 10,000,000th image on Wikimedia.

How? I have just failed.

3:17 PM

Where do they have that from? I didn't notice any Google Street View cars around my house lately.

They have the Google Street View scooter too, now.

Pompei is on Street View, too.

That's amazing.

@kiamlaluno You can't drive those around my house. Look at the photo once again.

They just walk around your house with the scooter on a shoulder.

3:22 PM

maps.google.com/…

O Vesuvio!

The only thing I remember of Pompeii is Cave canem.

(I mean, apart the "red" district.)

I don't get it why some people don't consider Wikipedia the most significant achievement of the last few decades.

Come to think of it, even Google is completely trumped by Wikipedia.

That's because the most significant achievement of the last few decades is EL&U!

Seriously though, I always wonder where Wikipedia will end up in 100 years.

I think it is pretty great.

And the sad thing is, my own contributions probably won't count in the long run.

Technological singularity

3:30 PM

In the ash heap of history, the same as humanity:

A technological singularity is a hypothetical event occurring when technological progress becomes so rapid and the growth of artificial intelligence is so great that the future after the singularity become qualitatively different and harder to predict. Basic concept Many of the most recognized writers on the singularity, such as Vernor Vinge and Ray Kurzweil, define the concept in terms of the technological creation of superintelligence, and allege that a post-singularity world would be unpredictable to humans due to an inability of human beings to imagine the intentions or capabilities o...

Sad indeed, but that is its strength.

Mar 7 at 21:56, by RegDwight

Anyhow, just checking the master list of my contributions, I see af, arz, be, bg, cv, de, el, en, es, fr, gu, he, hu, hy, id, io, is, it, ja, ko, lt, ml, nah, nl, no, pl, ro, ru, simple, sl, sr, tet, tr, uk, vi, zh, zh-min-nan, commons and meta.

Many of them don't matter today, and none will in a few years.

Why did you restrict yourself to only those domains?

Because SE happened, that's why.

Ah, yes, it landed on us like a big Leviathan.

3:32 PM

And started referencing to Wikipedia in its answers.

No, way, like a Goliath. A titan?

Wikipedia's strength is that it is comprehensive and of reasonable quality.

Everything is on it.

Apart from that, it is only the way it is being created that makes it different from other encyclopaedias.

@Vitaly Our strength is that we don't have to limit ourselves to Wikipedia. Huge as it is, it is but one resource. And it doesn't allow personal opinions. On SE, we can have the best of both worlds.

Topic-Comment in Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics: 20-odd pages. Topic-Comment in Wikipedia: half a page.

Absolutely! Wiki is just the best low-level reference if you want to know "something about something".

@Vitaly: You are referring to a ratio?

@Cerberus: I am referring to the sorry state of the Topic-Comment article on Wikipedia. Also, the references in it aren't very good either.

However, they charge over 6,000 bucks for Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics.

3:37 PM

@Vit: Oh! I don't know this article.

You know the standard response to that.)))

"It's a wiki. You can edit it.")))

Indeed.

And my English isn't too good for me to be editing the English Wikipedia.

Q: What's the canonical retort to "it's open source, submit a patch"?

Kind of like this:

89

The danger of ever suggesting some feature on a product, especially open source, is that you'll get the response, "why don't you do it?". That's valid, and it's cool that you can make the change yourself. But we know practically that products do often improve as programmers listen to the voice o...

@Vitaly Haha, now you're just lying.

Oh, I see. I always call that focus, not comment. But I see what you mean.

I'm going for a run, later!

Later @Cerberus

19 hours ago, by Vitaly

So it's your social identification?

s/identification/identity

Q.E.D.

3:40 PM

Huh?

Many places in Wikipedia, it would be spelled iedunticashn.

By the way, Pompeii on Gmaps is great! Later.

CU.

My point is, I have failed to distinguish between the two words, when all they share is their root

You just have to give it a try, Vitaly. What bad can come out of it?

I'm not qualified to edit the English Wikipedia.

That's actually easy to answer: a linguistics major opens that article, sees the horrible pidgin, and decides never to go to Wikipedia again.

And tells all his friends not to go there.

Thus, Wikipedia loses a couple thousand potential editors.

3:45 PM

As if there's a couple thousand linguistics majors waiting to hear someone's opinion about Wikipedia rather than building their own.

Now you're exaggerating.

Besides, there are people like nohat who keep an eye on linguistics stuff.

Exaggerate is a new word to me.

Oh come on.

Check the calendar, April 1st is long over.

It's November the 7th all over.

Looks more like October 25th from here.

Anyhow, the point is, you want stuff to be done, better do it yourself.

You want a site to become better, help out.

Whether it's Wikipedia, Reddit, ELU or 4chan.

That's what I do on the Russian Wikipedia. The English? No way.

3:49 PM

Fair enough.

I have written exactly one article for the German Wikipedia that got labeled as "Good".

It was fun, though exhausting.

Exactly one article that got labelled as “Good” out of how many total articles?

English is also too ambiguous!

Lemme check.

"2500+ edited, 14 created, 1 good."

Lots of experience with the Germans innit.

I could post a link but I would have to subsequently delete it because, obviously, it could be used to find out who I am.

There can't be that many “Good” articles in the German Wikipedia that were created by guys speaking fluent Russian.

3:57 PM

Oh, we do have quite a few!

Not all of them speak fluent German, but their writing is impeccable.

Moskauer Kreml

Der Moskauer Kreml (; wiss. Transliteration Moskovskij Kremlʹ) ist der älteste Teil der russischen Hauptstadt Moskau und deren historischer und geografischer Mittelpunkt. Es handelt sich dabei um eine ursprünglich im Mittelalter entstandene Burg, die ab Ende des 15. Jahrhunderts nach dem Muster einer Zitadelle neu errichtet wurde. Kennzeichnend für das architektonische Ensemble des Moskauer Kremls ist dessen aus der Begrenzungsmauer und ihren 20 Türmen bestehender Befestigungskomplex, der in seiner heutigen Form zum größten Teil in den Jahren 1485 bis 1499 erbaut wurde und bis heute...

Yes, es-1.

Anyhow, the Kremlin article was written by one such guy. His written German is perfect, but he speaks with a very thick Russian accent.

Feb 8 at 15:52, by Kosmonaut

Mind = blown!

Come to think of it, it should be more like es-2 but be-1.

I haven't updated those in a while.

Oh well. I certainly won't be updating them today.

“Categories in the German Wikipedia are already organized into fully populated primary categories” — is this true?

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

Wikipedia:Category intersection

Category intersection is the ability to find all articles that are members of more than one category. It requires a change to the MediaWiki software as well as a major change to the policies related to how categories are populated. It is hoped that these changes will solve some long-standing categorization problems and end some common conflicts between Wikipedia editors. Category intersection also offers the possibility of adding several new features that will benefit users by adding valuable research and indexing tools as well as making the category system easier to manage. Category ...

4:05 PM

Ah yes. That's an old feature request.

In fact it says just that, "Category intersection has been a desired feature for quite some time."

That's actually something (populating primary categories) I'd like to see done (and do it myself) on the English Wikipedia, but that seems to be at odds with what the administrators there want.

Or something.

Why is the German Wikipedia asking me to solve a CAPTCHA?

You trying to log in with your global handle?

Yep.

I have to solve those from time to time, too.

They constantly tweak things.

4:09 PM

The problem is that it says I fail the CAPTCHA.

Does the CAPTCHA ask for two words?

Uhmmm... wait; maybe there is already a user account with the same username.

Um, then you wouldn't be able to use your global handle. In fact, you wouldn't have a global handle.

Now that I think of that, there were two Wikipedias where somebody registered with my same username.

I just registered mine as soon as universal accounts were introduced.

Yep. Four Wikipedias has already an account with the username I use.

Is it possible to change username, on Wikipedia?

Yes.

Though I have never changed mine, I only know it from the opposite perspective: as a bureaucrat, I get merge/rename requests from time to time.

4:17 PM

@RegDwight How should I do, to change it?

Now I understand why it says "in migration."

Wikipedia:Changing username

~~Post a request on a bureaucrats's talk page, I suppose.~~ Almost.

__NOEDITSECTION__ Registered users on the English Wikipedia are able to seek username changes. Renames are carried out by , in accordance with the , , and their own discretion. Requests for usernames which are offensive, promotional, disruptive, misleading, or confusing are not accepted. Must read * A rename moves your contributions and userspace pages to a new name, while preserving your account preferences. * It is not currently possible to rename accounts with more than 50,000 edits. * If the is very busy, it might take a number of days before the software reattributes all your con...

It was easier than I thought.

Now I will wait somebody checks there are problems with renaming my account.

4:34 PM

is there a question about the difference between I like to do/be sth and I like doing/being sth?

Q: "I don't bother to do" vs "I don't bother doing"

Sounds not entirely unfamiliar, lemme check.

4

Which one of these sentences is correct? I don't bother to study. I don't bother studying.

usage word-choice infinitive participle

7

Q: Gerund or infinitive: When to use which?

Some verbs are followed by ing, e.g. I enjoy swimming. We can't say I enjoy to swim. Likewise, some verbs are followed by to, e.g. I decided to make a plan. Which particular verbs are followed by ing and to? Can you please provide a list for that? Moreover, which verbs can be followed by both ...

grammar list-request gerund infinitive

4

Q: How does one know when to use a gerund or a infinitive?

As a native speaker of English, the gerund version of this sentence sounds better: infinitive: When used together in chains, extension methods are an unprecedented tool to produce extremely concise code. gerund: When used together in chains, extension methods are an unprecedent...

grammar gerund verbals

The second one looks the most promising at first glance.

Thanks; I am thinking about something more along the lines of what is quoted from the CGEL here.

I'm trying to figure out the exact context...

SE has spoiled me, forums make no sense to me now.

(But yeah, if Pullum says so, it must be right.)))

just wanted to double-check what Pullum claims

I suppose you could post a follow-up to the second question.

I mean, the top answer says, "Sometimes the meaning changes according to the verb used", mentions (dis)like and leaves it at that.

You could ask, what is that change, exactly?

4:45 PM

a follow-up?

Sure.

Or is it April 1st again?

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/follow-up

would it be enough to link to that question and clarify what exactly it is that I want, which is not covered in the question?

I am just not familiar enough with SE in general

for all I know, follow-up could be a feature of the SE platform

Ah, okay. No.

@Vitaly Yes, a link would be nice, and perhaps a short quote. "This is what I read in <link>: <quote>, that's not enough for my needs, here's my more specific question: <question>"

Ok, thanks

Q: “I like to do (be) sth” vs “I like doing (being) sth”

5:02 PM

0

This is what I read in an answer to a previous question: Verbs Followed by Either Gerund or Infinitive Sometimes the meaning changes according to the verb used. <…> (dis)like <…> I’d like to ask a more specific question: What is that change in the case of (dis)like...

grammar differences gerund infinitive

I was trying to somehow incorporate that excerpt from the CGEL into my question, but gave up.

It wasn't coming out right.

A good answer will probably include that excerpt. Or you could add it in a comment or as an edit at a later time.

The question is fine as it is. Let's wait and see.

Me's back.

So how are them your new boots?

Or lingerie or whatever.

Food. A new power strip. Shampoo. Etc.

Oh my. That's boring.

5:09 PM

I never said it was fun. Boredom is sometimes the price of marriage.

A boredom in the hand is worth two in the bush.

Uh, maybe "bush" isn't quite the word here.

I think it's as quite the word as it gets.

“I like to be married” in Google Search = Nicole Kidman.

Q: Does it feel lately like all questions have already been asked and answered and there is nothing more to do?

1

I think everybody with a history of participation can't help but notice the explosive growth of repeated duplicate questions. The work of looking for duplicates and then closing questions has overtaken the work of actually answering questions. It's become virtually impossible to ask something wh...

discussion exact-duplicates future strategy

5:15 PM

Fascinating.

That's because too many people haven't been married to Nicole Kidman.

And nobody believes Tom Cruise.

They got a divorce and she got the career.

Hey now, Tom Cruise has been churning out one blockbuster after another, like, um, er, Knight and Day.

Also, that Scientology video.

And South Park.

He was good in Tropic Thunder as Les Grosman.

I have no answer to the all-questions-answered question.

5:23 PM

Asking that question on a Sunday amounts to trolling.

@Robusto Right.

Haha.

True.

But it will still be there on Monday.

A: In a tournament, do I get a by, a bye, or a buy?

On Monday, it will be closed.

0

If I show up at a chess tournament with no opponent available, the director waves and says, "Bye!"

Folk etymology galore.

The NOAD > the OED + the AHD?

Well, he accepted OED/AHD, then unaccepted, then accepted NOAD.

english.stackexchange.com/posts/21497/timeline

Look at this beauty.

No seriously, click the link.

Asinus Buridani inter duo prata.

Except that the prata aren't as equal.

5:32 PM

Perhaps the OP tried to get +2 each time?

That's kind of schizophrenic.

And btw, @RegDwight, are you accustomed to "launching your junk" from windows? Just curious ...

No. I was talking Italian customs, not mine.

It sounded like you were speaking from experience. But OK.

Well it was all over the news.

TV = experience.

@Vitaly — I have no idea what's being asked there.

Funny game review:

escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/…

5:35 PM

@Robusto You don't perceive a difference?

Told ya my English sucks.

@Robusto OOOOOOLD.

@RegDwight Well, I just inherited the game so I thought I'd read the review. Sosiouxme.

@RegDwight He plays music, after all.

@Robusto The game is awesome from what I've heard and seen. Never played it myself, though.

5:38 PM

@Vitaly — What, you have to be old to play music?

I don't play that many VGs these days. Sigh. Mostly when I meet with that Calabrian friend of mine.

Or some Wii against my wife.

@Robusto en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%B1%D0%B0%D1%8F%D0%BD

Must be Russian thing ...

Syringe? Seriously? See, that's what I mean when I say that I am not up to date in Russian.

I am not up-to-date in junkie slang either.

5:46 PM

Keep it up. I'm gonna smack somebody.

Hey, @Vitaly, I answered your "like" question. Not sure that's what you were looking for, but what the hey.

@Robusto: The infinitival is more associated with change, the gerund-participle with actuality. Thus someone who has recently turned forty or got married might say "I like being forty" or "I like being married". An infinitival would be strange here, suggesting repeated changes from not being forty or married to being forty or married. In this case the meaning is close to that of "enjoy", which only allows gerund-participles. —CGEL

I wonder if this has some substance

@Vitaly — The line is blurry. I would not say "I like to be married" but I would not have a problem saying "I like to eat apples" or "I like to have sex." I would also not feel strange saying "I like eating apples" or "I like having sex".

@RegDwight — This is the kind of smack I'm talking about: hahastop.com/pictures/Smack.jpg

I used to love to give those when I was little. And, uh, innocent.

But this is the kind of smack I was punning about:

►

Deja vu all over again.

That happens a lot.

But you're probably going to bitch about UMG again.

6:03 PM

Um, no. I am bitching about the deja vu.

This is not the first time you post that video.

Yeah. Deja vu is a bitch. And then you have to deal with it all over again.

Apr 4 at 12:59, by Robusto

►

@RegDwight — Yeah, if I were @RegDwight I'd just quote myself. But I'm not that brilliant.

Anyway, gonna go check out the XBox. Laterz.

RegDwight exists to help you out with all your quoting needs, too.

Have fun.

Later @Robusto

Quirk et al actually have something to say about the participial and infinitivial *like*-constructions, more than that excerpt from the CGEL, but I'm only getting my copy of the CGEL delivered next week or so

With the verbs which take both constructions the bias of the infinitive towards ‘potentiality’ tends to favour its use in hypothetical and nonfactual contexts; on the other hand, the participial construction is favoured when the speaker is referring to something which definitely happens or has happened. —Quirk et al

Would you like to see my stamp collection?
Would you like ?*seeing my stamp collection?
Brian loathed ?to live in the country.
Brian loathed living in the country.

6:14 PM

@Vitaly What they say tallies with my intuition

The question "Would you like seeing my stamp collection" is odd, because presumably the person being asked hasn't seen it, and doesn't know whether they'll enjoy the experience - but asking "...like to see..." is asking whether they'd appreciate the opportunity to do so.

it's marked as “?*”, yeah

Yes, I know, I'm explaining why, in my view, the "?*" is justified :-)

?* = tending to unacceptability, ? = native speakers unsure about acceptability

I know

oh, ok

I still can't come up with a unification of those two excerpts though

that would be helpful (as an answer to the question).

6:17 PM

But you could say "Would you like seeing that view every day?"

Which two? The Quirk and ... ?

28 mins ago, by Vitaly

@Robusto: The infinitival is more associated with change, the gerund-participle with actuality. Thus someone who has recently turned forty or got married might say "I like being forty" or "I like being married". An infinitival would be strange here, suggesting repeated changes from not being forty or married to being forty or married. In this case the meaning is close to that of "enjoy", which only allows gerund-participles. —CGEL

Hmmm... to me they're saying the same thing in a different way - but that's probably only because I sort of already know what they're getting at :-/

Is there a particular aspect that you find confusing? Or is the whole concept still opaque?

I find this particular sentence confusing: “An infinitival would be strange here, suggesting repeated changes from not being forty or married to being forty or married”

Right, OK

besides, “I like eating apples” could also be rephrased as “I enjoy eating apples”

but “I like to eat apples” is also possible (i.e. sounds natural)

so I am having trouble seeing the relevance of the sentence right after the confusing one

6:22 PM

So it's saying (as I'm sure you've picked up) that it's preferable to say "I like being married" and "I like being forty", except in certain (very odd) circumstances

Because the use of the infinitival implies that there is a choice going on

oh! thanks.

Whereas, once you're forty, you keep being forty, at least for a year

And you tend to keep being married (at least for a while!)

Someone like Elizabeth Taylor might well have said "I like to be married", given that she did it lots of times...

I might say "I like to run every morning", which means roughly "It makes me happy to choose to organise my life in this way"

But saying "I enjoy running every morning" implies that it's the actual running itself that gives me the pleasure

Does any of the above make it any clearer?

Yes, thank you, the choice part cleared it all

OK good :)

@psmears: Just don't forget to sum it all up in an answer on the main site.

6:32 PM

@RegDwight Bah, I was hoping you weren't going to say that ;-)

Tough luck.

Main site?

EL&U, yes.

Ah ok.

Why do people keep asking me what "main site" means?

6:33 PM

THAT main site.

I thought it was this.

The infinitive v. gerund matter is complicated indeed. I remember finding it vague when I was 13 years old and didn't know which to pick; now I am usually quite sure which one is right, but I still couldn't explain it clearly.

I am talking about verbs that can take both.

Gut feeling is your friend. Except when it ain't, of course.

Hehe.

Does it ever happen to you that your gut survives examination and still turns out to have failed you?

I don't quite understand.

@Vitaly: Are the "stamp collection" and "living in the country" examples from Quirk&al? Or elsewhere?

Well, when my guts tell my that a certain construction is right, I think about it some more, try to find proof that it is wrong; if my gut feeling still stands after that, it is usually right. (This obviously excludes cases where my guts remain silent.)

6:42 PM

@psmears They are from Quirk's A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language, yes.

@Vitaly Thanks!

@Cerberus So you mean it survives the intitial examination? Because the "turns out to have failed me" part trumps it all.

@Reg: Exactly. You describe it more accurately.

Nah, just trying to understand.))

Heh.

6:47 PM

Well, I dunno. I don't keep record. But my gut feeling tells me that there must have been an occasion or five where it failed me.

Then you must have eaten something bad.

That has certainly happened more than fifce.

Don't blame the guts!

Fifce... is there a word, actually?

Probably not.

Q: once, twice, thrice, *frice?

14

Is there a word for four times as much, analogous to once, twice, and thrice?

single-word-requests

We have a site, you know. Where you can look stuff up.

Oh! Nah I never look anything up here.

I usually just Google stuff; when EL&U comes up first, it makes me happy.

6:50 PM

As long as you click on stuff that I look up, it's fine.

Deal.

Try googling for *fastly*.

Yay, Kosmy comes in second!

At least on my Google.

That is heartwarming.

Brb.

@Cerberus Are you saying there is more than one Google? I bet that next you will say there is more than on Internet.

@RegDwight Quince, surely

6:55 PM

Quincy, M.E.

Quincy, M.E., also called Quincy, is a United States television series from Universal Studios that aired from October 3, 1976, to September 5, 1983, on NBC. It stars Jack Klugman in the title role, a Los Angeles County medical examiner. The show resembled the earlier Canadian television series, Wojeck, broadcast by CBC Television and took some inspiration from Los Angeles coroner Thomas Noguchi. The first half of the first season of Quincy was broadcast as 90-minute telefilms as part of the NBC Sunday Mystery Movie rotation in the fall of 1976 alongside Columbo, McCloud and McMillan (for...

That just makes me think of this

I guess that Quincy Market means "the fifth market," doesn't it?

Peritonsillar abscess

Peritonsillar abscess, also called quinsy or abbreviated as PTA, is a recognised complication of tonsillitis and consists of a collection of pus beside the tonsil (peritonsillar space). Causes PTA usually arises as a complication of an untreated or partially treated episode of acute tonsillitis. The infection, in these cases, spreads to the peritonsillar area (peritonsillitis). This region comprises loose connective tissue and is hence susceptible to formation of abscess. PTA can also occur de novo. Both aerobic and anaerobic bacteria can be causative. Commonly involved species include ...

@RegDwight Anyway, thy will is done

@kiamlaluno Google's results are highly customized based on browser, referer, cookies, black magic, and the Mayan calendar.