English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2013-02-06 (page 1 of 2)

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12:47 AM

@ElendilTheTall Questions and answers should be interesting and well researched.

@ElendilTheTall "General Reference" means nothing more than "you could have looked it up in a dictionary".

1:00 AM

0

Q: I Came or Come From

If I originally lived in Italy and then moved to the United States and currently live in the United States. Then somebody asked me where I am from. I say: I come/came from Italy. Should it be present tense or past tense?

grammar past-tense usage present-tense

I have this to say about that:

1:23 AM

@simchona: Wow. so you're having an edit war with Snowflake because -you- changed his title to something questionable?

-9

Q: My complain for your weird reactions!

I think this site and some other sites with this kind of moderating don't deserve wasting time. I was here to learn but I had to face with some narrow minded members who attacked me by offensive, racial trends and sexism which are continuing in one of meta topics! Even after my polite and reasona...

I just noticed the edit history of the question. I don't think SnowFlake is being constructive and some of his comments are inflammatory, but you are a -mod-; you, as the responsible one, shouldn't be having an edit war, especially when you're the one making his title particularly inflammatory.

2

Hello

1:55 AM

@Mitch The question title started out as "I want to give you 100 votes per day"

How is changing the title to something that actually describes the post "inflammatory"?

"I like this website => I dislike this website". Besides, why get into an edit war as a moderator?

@simchona I thought that particular title "I don't like this site" was..., among many things, misrepresentative. Sure he has difficulties with English and is himself a bit inflammatory, but you really are, as an authority, giving him the Kafkaesque treatment. Whatever nonsense he is spouting, you really are manipulating what he is trying to say. You could just as easily (and accurately!) changed the title to 'I am an ass'.

Changing the title so radically is wrong, and what you changed it to is also wrong.

Then suggest a better title. But "I like this site" is also wildly misrepresentative of the post itself

He is the one choosing his content. You are a moderator, to moderate things, keep things even, not a content changer.

I think it's a she.

2:09 AM

OK.

I don't feel that I radically changed content; I will admit that I went too far.

I'm currently asking TL what to do about the ad hominem name calling, however.

The user also rejected an invitation from Kit to talk in a separate chat room.

Also the edit war is too much. She created, you changed, she rolled back..leave it at that, and moderate. (she'll probably leave anyway, but you still don't want to abuse your mod powers (OK editing isn't a mod power but you don't want to abuse editing powers)).

I don't mean to interfere, but could someone give me a hand, please?

My rationale was that titles should match the post; I'm sorry if you think I chose a bad title. I was trying to find one that a. matched and b. was relatively neutral.

@simchona Yes, that was weird and inappropriate (but I think borderline).

@simchona refused or just didn't do it?

2:12 AM

@Mitch Refused, I think. It's in a comment on the answer to the question.

> Kit: In addition, I will invite you to join me and a StackExchange community moderator in a private chat room to discuss this further.

Sorry I only want to delete my account! I have no more time for it. I do not used to waste my time. I tried it in this 6 days of joining. — SnowFlake 6 hours ago

@simchona I thought your title was over the top. When I thought she did it I thought it was rude. When I found out you wrote it, I was shocked, it was like putting trolling words in someone else's mouth.

Refused, then came back to add names.

@Mitch I really honestly thought it was better than the false titles she was using, and I was really trying for it to be as neutral as possible. Will you believe that at least?

@simchona that's not a refusal, that's someone who is new to the site and doesn't know how to do things (and though acting like a bull in a china shop).

@Mitch She received an invitation to a private room, and she didn't do it. If not explicit, then implicit refusal

@simchona Of course I believe you that that's what you meant, but I didn't know that then.

2:15 AM

@Mitch Ok, I get you. I'm sorry I came off poorly, and I'm sorry to @Cerberus as well

It's OK.

I know you do what you think is best for the site.

Please show respect to get respect. Kit, another mod, offered you a chance to talk through your complaints about the site. Please consider taking her up on that offer. — simchona 14 secs ago

I'm thinking similar things about her that you are thinking (she's euphemistically not playing well in the sandbox), but the intervention you made was... exacerbating things (almost taunting the newcomer)

I do want this to be resolved; I don't think attacking people in the post is helping.

I just think maybe it is sometimes better to think "what ultimate purpose does my action serve?", rather than "am I executing the rules?".

2

2:19 AM

@Cerberus I'll take that to heart.

@ChairOTP sorry dude, just ask your question.

Great.

so now that's settled, holy crap, what's up with SnowFlake?

I'm not saying I like Snowflake's attitude.

Or her questions.

I know, right?

2:20 AM

Uhuh.

So presumptious

And crazy.

or presumptuous (is that ironic?)

nut ball city

I was almost thinking I should be offended at the redneck thing.

Really?

Let me inspect your neck.

Ha ha yeah!

It was like saying "I'm not racist but... you know those people dont drive very well"

2:22 AM

Hmm, I see only snow flakes. You mustn't work on your land in winter. Whitenecks are bad news.

Hey! stop that! it's my neck.

oh that's dandruff

Oh, thank goodness.

If there weren't already brouhaha, I'd say she's being awfully rude and should have gotten a warning

@Mitch Sorry I didn't mean to get in the way of your conversation. I have been having some trouble with a gerund preceded by a possessive. I looked it up on here and I was wondering what is wrong with this sentence I came up with "...as a result of her giving him her heart, and his/him playing with it" In the second one, according to what I understood from what I read, I think it should be him. But then again, I'm not even sure if the statement makes sense.

@ChairOTP just jump in! there's no 'in the way'.

2:23 AM

@ChairOTP Thank you for being courteous.

@ChairOTP Either is correct. His is the traditional choice. Him is slightly more informal and more common nowadays.

@Mitch Yeah, but some people jump in and expect an answer RIGHT NOW

yeah both are correct, they mean the slightest of different things.

@simchona Exactly I try to avoid that.

@simchona oh. yeah, they're not gonna get that.

2:24 AM

But thank you anyway.

unless they do.

@Mitch sceptical look They seem to mean the same thing to me.

and sometimes you do want to get people's attention. so they actally might answer

So it does make sense?

No matter which one I use.

Sure.

There is no change in meaning.

hides

2:26 AM

'his playing with it': 'his playing' is a noun phrase or parses
((his playing) (with (it)))
'him playing with it:
(him (playing (with (it))))

Thank you, I just asked a friend of mine who lives in Canada and she said it didn't really make much sense. But I wanted to be sure with the experts.

@Mitch Yes, but the actual meaning of the sentence is not really affected by this syntactic difference.

@ChairOTP Why wouldn't it make sense?

@Cerberus there is the slightest slightest infinitesimal change in meaning, but really it doesn't matter, like the slight pink shade on my neck, which could be there or not and wouldn't make a difference whether I was a redneck or not.

by the way, I'm not, but I might be related to some.

Yikes!

I do not find the difference significant, but w'evs.

Oh...we are not experts. Really.

2:28 AM

Sure we are.

well, yeah, it's not particularly significant.

@Cerberus That's why I asked, because she said "I don't' know how to explain it, I just know cause I know" and even though I know what she means by that, I still wanted to get a solid answer.

@Mitch It is like the difference between "redneck" and "bad driver".

@ChairOTP Ah, the "I know it when I see it" argument

it's not significant at all (but is does exist)

@Cerberus Ha Ha!!

what?

what do you mean by that?

2:29 AM

@Mitch Me?

@ChairOTP I don't see how the choice between his and him would change whether the phrase made sense or not: what it means is perfectly clear either way.

@simchona Well, I kind of understand her on that matter since there are things that I can't explain from my own native language even though I use them everyday, so I don't really judge people when they say so.

@Mitch Hmm nothing, nothing.

@Cerberus Well, that is such a relief because I thought I had it all wrong, but thank you once again.

@ChairOTP I'm not judging either. It's something I think a lot of people do because native languages are learned a little differently. Something "sounds right" or it doesn't

2:30 AM

@ChairOTP Great!

@simchona Not you. Cerb was making a crack about the possibility of my being the member of a group labeled by a pejorative (I know, so rare).

user19161

@Mitch What group?

gasp Would I ever suggest such a possibility?

@simchona Yeah, maybe judging wasn't the right word. But you're right, I sometimes make the same mistake when it doesn't sound right to me, then it doesn't necessarily means it's wrong.

user19161

By the way, what happened to that Reg incident?

2:32 AM

@Cerberus oh yeah. on that note they are both equally understandable and infinitesimally (I'm going to use that word a third time and something big will happen) different (menaing they are pretty much the same)

@JasonBourne I don't know. I have good hopes it went away.

@Cerberus It did.

@JasonBourne pick a group. that bastard

wait..-that's- a group!

@Mitch I would like to know what is that 'infinitesimal' difference, if that's okay.

@Mitch Only because perfect synonyms do not exist.

@simchona You can't be sure...

2:33 AM

@ChairOTP It means a very, very, very small difference.

user19161

@Cerberus Well I think maybe he shouldn't have deleted it so quickly as it was sufficiently different, but then calling the deletion an abuse of privilege is not the right term to use. The deletion was just a matter of difference in opinion.

Small on the order of the size of an atom

@JasonBourne incident? wa an emergency room involved?

@simchona No, I meant the meaning.

@ChairOTP Oh, sorry--I misread your statement

user19161

2:34 AM

@Mitch Well, he deleted someone's answer on a question he also answered and the person wasn't happy.

@ChairOTP I gave the tree parse (without labels) above. look at that

@JasonBourne I don't think we need to beat dead horses

@Cerberus yes, that's relevant.

@JasonBourne Right.

user19161

Hey @mah how is your hair today LOL

2:35 AM

but like the whole sentence. because one would never say outright that him and his are synonyms (even though techncially they are pretty close)

@JasonBourne frowns

Synonyms in this particular sentence.

@Mitch Oops, sorry hadn't seen it. Thank you everyone again. I will always be grateful to this website definitely.

Synonyms can only exist within a context.

@JasonBourne oh. yeah I noticed that. I actually thought the other guy had a good point. Sorry Reg.

user19161

2:36 AM

@Mitch Well, I have analysed the matter above. QED.

@Cerberus 'only' is a bit extreme.

For example, try to find a synonym for street in this example:

all words have multiple meanings dependent on context.

hold on, that's not the profundity I meant.

user19161

@Mitch That's not profound at all, that is too basic.

> Halfway down the street we find an e, dear children. Say after me, e.

2:38 AM

all words are different, even words that are nominally very close synonyms are different (otherwsie there wouldn't even be those two different words) and now here's the profundity...even the same word has meanings that are different enough to not be exact synonyms!

The last bit doesn't make sense, sorry...

user19161

@Mitch Shit hits the fan has two meanings.

@Cerberus um...'road'? avenue'? boulevard? alley? mews? close? highway? should I continue?

@JasonBourne which two?

@Cerberus that's how profound it is!

wait for a link...

@Mitch None of those really work with the two e's clearly in the middle.

or rather don't wait for it...it'll be here in a sec

user19161

2:40 AM

@Mitch Well, I was just thinking of the two meanings of fan...

Nor are they fit for children.

Nor do they sound like /i:/.

user19161

It seems like many things happened on this site the last few days eh?

Here we go:

itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000128.html

John McWhorter on polysemy.

So what I'm saying is, in that context, even a word like street, which has so many synonyms, doesn't have a really good synonym in that particular context, because of the context.

@Cerberus ?? is this some dutch english-teaching somng for kids?

user19161

2:44 AM

Snow Flake's location is in Iran, says profile on ELL.

my profundity (which was only one of McWhorter's) is that a given sound form isn't even synonymous with itself; it has so many meanings that are distinct (even for the same sound)....and that includes your profundity, it depends on context.

@JasonBourne yeah, a lot of other people live there too

@JasonBourne actually no.

or rather well today.

it was quiet yesterday.

@Mitch All of that is correct.

@Mitch But that's not what synonymy means.

Oh. what does it mean then?

It is when the same approximate meaning can be rendered by means of different words or possibly phrases.

What you describe is homonymy.

Oh but that is my point, that the same word can be non synonymous with itself.

all those versions of stand are etymologically the same, but they have diverged n meaning.

2:49 AM

A word cannot be synonymous with itself by definition.

All you are saying is that all words are in a way homonyms, which I agree with.

I suppose you could call that homonymy, but usually that comes from distinct derivations where the sound change rules created the same sequence

like 'beat' and 'beet'

In other words, a word never has one fixed meaning: its meaning is rather determined partly by context.

@Cerberus YOu are obviously not a mathematician.

@Mitch I suppose that is true, yes.

@Mitch Oh, no?

take one dictionary definition (devoid of context). That is synonymous with itself by definition of synonymy

2:51 AM

Pah.

@Cerberus !! was that a compliment or not? !!

@Mitch That's not what synonymous means.

@Mitch I know it not.

'exactly the same' falls with n the range of 'approximately the same'

@Cerberus pft

If mathematicians have elected to use a deviant definition of "synonym" in mathematics, then, fine; but they shall not have a say in the way it is used in ordinary language!

@Mitch Tsk.

Synonymy ≠ identity.

by mathematically, I meant using strict stipulative definitions, and there synonymy comes out as an equivalence relation

@Cerberus in English right, in math maybe not.

2:54 AM

Meaning must be equivalent, yes; but form must not be equivalent, or it is simply identity, not synonymy.

@Cerberus humph

Gah.

ack

@Mitch As I said, mathematicians can do whatever they want in mathematics.

(got something caught in my throat)

@Cerberus and they do _ within reason_

rimshot

that was a math joke. I know, not that compelling.

2:55 AM

Fine.

gob

@Mitch Uhh I'm sure it was compelling some people, just not this ignorantem.

Or ignarum.

ignorabimus

Shall we?

already have!

If you predict so.

let it be so!

are we dancing yet?

2:57 AM

We have already not-known something in the future?

tries to dance, looks stiff like a log, gives up

uh..duh...there is so much that we don't know already about the future. what else is the plusqueparfait for?

I've always thought that was an ice cream dish..I think I'll have some more.

Ignorabimus = future, not pluperfect.

sits down to enjoy watching dancers

We shall be ignorant.

@Cerberus Ha ha...that's irony right? cuz I didn't know that.

3:00 AM

Haha.

ignoraberunt?

Ignoraveramus = pluperfect.

Ignoraverint = future perfect.

3:11 AM

I just tried to access chat and was promptly redirected to A51.

Thank you, SE. Very helpful.

6

Q: Chat redirecting to A51?

May be a problem on my end, but chat.SE of all sites is pushing me to Area51. Can anyone confirm? (hard to check in chat when you can't get in chat)

3:28 AM

Yeah I got a different error all of a sudden.

Interesting.

Interesting, or...

chat.stackexchange.com/error?aspxerrorpath=/rooms/95/…

Funny.

I think I am done with SE as a whole for awhile, so goodbye.

@Mahnax What? Why!

Nooo.....

5

2 hours later…

6:04 AM

I'm too tired to know if anyone is serious! Nooo!

Tomorrow I'm going to get up in the morning early again and by then either sleep deprivation will make me a zombie or... There was another alternative, right? Normal people sleep at night?

5 hours later…

10:50 AM

user image

Oh, so blue!

Matt Эллен

11:14 AM

New dupe identifing magic? Excellent.

hi @all

Matt Эллен

hello

howdy?

Matt Эллен

Is that a question?

not,really. I am here to interact and learn.

Matt Эллен

11:26 AM

You might be interested in the new beta site English Language Learners

thanks !

Matt Эллен

@RegDwighт oh, not new dupe finding magic, just a new message. hohum

it is nicer than the one before

@NSharma no trouble. It's a very new site, but it seems to be very active.

@MattЭллен m new in here... which site would be the best for gaining lots of new vocab?

TemporaryNickName

Hi guys

I just played Orcs Must Die 2 and cleared up to stage 39 or so.

Matt Эллен

@NSharma That depends on how you intend to gain it. Questions asking for lists are not appropriate anywhere on Stack Exchange. But if you're going to be reading the sites, then I recommend ELL. Of course, if you're looking for synonyms then an online reference like thesaurus.com is good. If you want to know the meaning of a word, dictionaries like onelook or Oxford dictionaries online are really useful.

TemporaryNickName

11:38 AM

Anyone know about this game too?

Matt Эллен

I've played Orcs Must Die, but I've not played OMD2, yet

it's on my list

TemporaryNickName

Nice, I haven't played the previous one yet heh

Matt Эллен

well, I guess there's no point if you're already playing the sequel :D

the original is probably the same but not quite as good

since you can do more in Orcs Must Die 2

TemporaryNickName

right...

...left

@aediaλ So they say. Such is not my lot, though. It’s 4:42am here.

TemporaryNickName

11:45 AM

When farms ship eggs to markets, do you think they wash them first before shipping those eggs?

Matt Эллен

yes, I think so. I don't know, though

TemporaryNickName

I really hope they wash their eggs

Matt Эллен

have you been licking eggshells?

Not that I know of.

TemporaryNickName

Nope, but I once saw someone cooking eggs inside soup with shells

Matt Эллен

11:56 AM

Interesting. What is the soup called?

TemporaryNickName

i don't know

Hm, I think if a moderator votes for "Leave Open" from the Close Review Queue, it takes it off that queue forever, as though it had had five regular "Leave Open" votes. If this can be confirmed, it looks like it may come as a surprise to some mods. @RegDwighт @Kit Do you know the answer?

At least, I can find no evidence to the contrary, because it looks like once a mod casts a Leave-Open vote, no one else ever reviews it. I have not search exhaustively, however, so may be wrong.

The Edit vote/stuff that Reg does from the queue does not seem to have the same effect. Again, I have only evidence not proof.

Hello.

Matt Эллен

Hello.

@TemporaryNickName Cooking kills (almost) all bacteria, notably salmonella.

And eggs are washed before sale in Western countries. Nevertheless, they won't be able to remove all bacteria in all cases.

@MattЭллен How is the room today?

Matt Эллен

12:06 PM

seems buoyant

Here I thought you were being wicked.

Matt Эллен

not a lot of activity

@tchrist I was in two minds

Too many eggshells about to talk boldly.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus enough activity to keep us afloat

I see.

@tchrist Talk about what?

@RegDwighт That's new, isn't it?

Or am I behind the times?

12:11 PM

tiptoes

Why?

I have a terrible cold.

coughs

sneezes

gazes towards starboard

I sit beside the fire and think of all that I have seen,
 of meadow-flowers and butterflies in summers that have been;
 Of yellow leaves and gossamer in autumns that there were,
 with morning mist and silver sun and wind upon my hair.
 I sit beside the fire and think of how the world will be
 when winter comes without a spring that I shall ever see.

 For still there are so many things that I have never seen:
 in every wood in every spring there is a different green.
 I sit beside the fire and think of people long ago,

His rhymes are not my rhymes, but charming nonetheless.

Why does Van Rompuy always look like a wet mouse?

user image

And he is supposed to "lead" the EU...

He may actually be good at what he does.

He just looks like a wet mouse. With an ugly tie.

Why do you give a dry fig what a leader looks like?

His job is lead, not to model.

This is not a catwalk.

Don’t make me quote more Postman.

49

A: Recent feature changes to Stack Exchange

February 2013 2013-02-06: The auto inserted text for questions closed as duplicates has been changed to "This question already has an answer here:" followed by link to the other question and the number of answers it has. The text is no longer edited into the original question but rather displ...

Well, at least they’re updating the new-features posting.

12:26 PM

@tchrist I don't give a fig. It's just funny.

Our previous PM looked like Harry Potter.

It doesn't matter, but it was funny, si?

@Cerberus That’s ok then.

phew

Matt Эллен

bisaster reverted!

@Cerberus Then you should hit up @TriG for the nudie pix.

No thanks...

@MattЭллен Bi, huh?

user image

Matt Эллен

12:29 PM

bi and di mean the same, neh?

Tell me he doesn't look like your addled grandfather.

Matt Эллен

actually, he does!

@MattЭллен Yeah. Latin v. Greek.

Matt Эллен

excellent

@MattЭллен Tada!

Matt Эллен

12:30 PM

@Cerberus luckily he doesn't look like my dead grandfather

So dilogy, trilogy, tetralogy.

@MattЭллен Aww.

Diptych.

user image

Tell me he doesn't look like HP.

Definitely don’t need nudie pix now.

His glasses used to be thicker and rounder.

Matt Эллен

12:31 PM

user image

He's a semi-orthodox Christian to boot.

@MattЭллен Much better.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus Just like Harry Potter?

lunches

user image

2

@Cerberus What, halfway between Greece and Italy? Is there an island there?

@RegDwighт Here is the Lego version of Balkellende.

@tchrist Corfu.

And, no, not that boot, and not that semi.

12:33 PM

The isle of corvids?

Not quite halfway. :)

The closest to halfway one gets.

Especially if Ionia is considered the Greek heartland.

And Latium the Italic heartland.

Well, of the Roman one, at least.

All these “new countries” of modern definition take some getting your head around.

You would probably call them “new states” or something.

Italy, Germany, Greece.

Rome is the heart of Roman Italia.

They don’t speak Roman though, now do they?

Greece is not that new...it was just part of the Ottoman Empire for a couple of centuries, but not that many.

The Romans spoke what became the dominant branch if the Italic languages.

So, yes.

12:39 PM

I cannot but think of Aeneas when you mention Latium.

And of Lavinia, daughter of the the Latin king.

You might have thought of Latin too, but no matter.

I did say the Latin king, you will note.

yclept Latinus.

But not the language...

It goes without saying. That is why I called him what I did.

And I don't where where La- in Lavinia came from.

12:43 PM

True.

See what I did there? Somehow I often type the second word twice.

Why?

@Cerberus The babyname sites claim that Lavinia means “woman of Rome”. They must be construing it to be a feminine version of her father’s name? Unclear.

Baby-name sites suck.

Not worth looking at.

Yeah.

1

A: Chat redirecting to A51?

So apparently SQL server was tired of dishing out our data and decided to take a break. http://stackstatus.net has the details.

Walde doesn't know.

> Latin Lavinia, of obscure meaning. Lavinium was a town in ancient Latium.

12:51 PM

At least we don’t have to suffer folk etymologies claiming it is La Vinia.

And what would that be?

Matt Эллен

I thik it is a name of cockney descent. Lav in ere.

@Cerberus Vinea.

@MattЭллен Usually we call those the gents.

Wine-loving?

And what is La?

That is the folk problem.

12:54 PM

linguistics.stackexchange.com/posts/3176/revisions

I wonder why Ale changed, or, rather, replaced, my diagram.

Matt Эллен

I prefer yours

Thanks.

Spanish “la viña” (vineyard) is from “illa vinea”. But you don’t have the La- from illa in Latin words.

I guess I can't revert it, so I'll just leave his version up.

quickly sits down in order not to appear taller than the exiled prince

I need more coffee. I was wondering whether you had the hiccups because beer had displaced your diaphragm, and why on earth you planned to leave it that way.

12:56 PM

Haha.

Is he come amongst us?

Not quite.

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