English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

12:18 AM

Stealthy. Way stealthy.

Cerberus

?

tchrist

12:36 AM

No picky.

Ikon.

Whatever that thingamabob is.

Cerberus

Her icon disappeared?

tchrist

Yes.

No graven image.

Or if there is one, it is indistinguishable from the background.

Mitch

12:56 AM

for the record...

1

A: Is there any word for the upper inner part of a sock?

Call it the inside rim. That's plain English. inside adjective [attributive] situated on or in, or derived from, the inside: an inside pocket rim noun the upper or outer edge of an object, typically something circular or approximately circular: a china egg cup with a gold rim

It's amazing how consistently off-key all her/his answers are. Obviously not an NNS but... how?

@tchrist: what is 'beat' in IPA then? (I think it is the same GenAmE vowel as in 'field')

AFK BBL TTYL, K?

Cerberus

1:13 AM

/bi:t/

Robusto

1:53 AM

In the faraway land they call Nothing-To-Do
Sat a marketing guru named Danny McCoo.
Poor Dan was unhappy, for all he could see
In the parks, in the malls (even up in a tree),
Was a bunch of young lovers who swore they'd be true
But as Danny himself said: "There's no one for *me!*"

So he took out his thinker. He thunk and he thunk.
Yet one after another, his ideas all stunk.
But he strained and he sweated, he bipped and he bopped.
He swore to himself that he would not be stopped.
And then, Lord-a-Mercy! His thinker went *clunk!*

6

Cerberus

2:20 AM

Bravo!

It's so stupid.

bows

V-day, I mean.

I know.

Aka. the shopkeeper's holiday.

Do they already have Easter eggs in your supermarket?

They do here.

Robusto

Not yet.

I wrote that one when I used to post in The Fray on Slate. I just found it kicking around in my miscellaneous poetry folder and it looked appropriate for the current season.

I think this is a reference to it, but it's not available there any longer. My screen name there was rob_said_that (obviously).

Cerberus

2:45 AM

Cool. Too bad they let it rot.

Mahnax

5:35 AM

@Cerberus Hi!

W3Geek

7:36 AM

I need help with proper "my" usage.

What can I say instead of:: "If your interested, you can view all of my accomplishments, milestones and work through my Twitter account."

Jez

9:31 AM

"if your interested"? ughhhh... i'd rather see "if ur interested"

Johan Larsson

11:28 AM

Hello, what is the name of the jar of money used to collect money for charity?

Matt Эллен

11:48 AM

@JohanLarsson they're usually called collection boxes

Johan Larsson

Ok simple as that, ty sir.

Matt Эллен

no probs

Johan Larsson

I have parked the language thing btw, did not find anything that looked like the least bit of fun.

Pushed on the procrastination stack :D

Matt Эллен

What was the language thing?

Johan Larsson

Multi-language gui in WPF, maybe I mix you up with someone else here.

Matt Эллен

11:51 AM

@W3Geek it's fine, just change your to you are

@JohanLarsson oh! right. yeah I remember you mentioned that

Matt Эллен

12:11 PM

has anyone else been playing with this event?

site self evaluation

Johan Larsson

I don't have an ELU account.

Matt Эллен

I often question if my account is a good idea.

Johan Larsson

i did not mean it like that, I just never created one :D

tchrist

@MattЭллен What color square would you like?

Matt Эллен

@tchrist I'd like a red square. What is the square for?

Or are you implying something about Jasper?

tchrist

12:25 PM

Yes.

Feb 1 at 18:18, by Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@TRiG Cerb would say no, Jasper would say "change it to a solid color" followed by "I'm retiring and deleting all my accounts and cancelling my internet", and Reg would say "whatevs"

Matt Эллен

Well, have no fear. I'm unlikely to request deletion. Just walking away is more my style.

tchrist

It is a fair question, Hamlet.

Now we know where @KitFox is moonlighting.

TRiG

@W3Geek I don't see anything wrong with your usage of my in that sentence. Your usage of your, on the other hand .... (I think I agree with @Jez on that score.)

tchrist

1:17 PM

1

A: To Break Bread -- the origin of the phrase

We find it in the Wycliffe bible. I quote here from the 1395: and weren lastynge stabli in the teching of the apostlis, and in comynyng of the breking of breed, in preieris (Acts 2:42 Wycliffe) And ech dai thei dwelliden stabli with o wille in the temple, and braken breed aboute housis, ...

TemporaryNickName

Guys

Do these sentences have appropriate grammar? "How a Garbage Collector works" and "How the Torrent downloading work"

What is wrong with it?

tchrist

concordance error

And inappropriate article.

That’s all.

TemporaryNickName

what do you mean by inappropriate article?

tchrist

How ~~the~~ Torrent downloading works

TemporaryNickName

so is "Torrent downloading" the article?

tchrist

1:21 PM

No.

English articles are a, an, and the.

TemporaryNickName

ah ok

tchrist

But you need the zero article.

Which is spelled:

.

TemporaryNickName

huh?

tchrist

Zero-marking in English

Zero-marking in English is the indication of a particular grammatical function by the absence of any morpheme (word, prefix, or suffix). The most common types of zero-marking in English involve zero articles, zero relative pronouns, and zero subordinating conjunctions. Examples of these are I like cats (where the absence of the definite article the signals that cats is an indefinite reference whose specific identity is not known to the listener), that's the cat I saw, in which the relative clause (that) I saw omits the implied relative pronoun that that would be the object of the clause's v...

Mitch

Yeah I don't get the zero article. That's just setting things up to be confusing. Just say 'no article':

It's an idiom; a holdover from older patterns. Our Neanderthal ancestors spoke Old English which did not have articles. A common saying was 'See dinosaur run' (they didn't have a rich vocabulary in the different species yet). Even though there were no velociraptors in England at the time, the pattern is kept for all dinosaurs. — Mitch 7 mins ago

tchrist

1:26 PM

For that phrase, Neander’s children preferred “see bird fly”.

Matt Эллен

C bird
C bird fly
fly bird fly

tchrist

sea bird float

with whipped cream

and a cherry

and some nuts

TemporaryNickName

According to the wiki link, they have listed Zero-article rules as following:

generic mass noun: Happiness is contagious.
generic plural noun: Cars have accelerators.
indefinite mass noun: I drink coffee.
indefinite plural noun: I saw cars.

tchrist

►

TemporaryNickName

But which rule does "How a Garbage Collector works" related to?

Matt Эллен

1:29 PM

a is an indefinite article. Your sentence isn't using the zero article

TemporaryNickName

hermmmmm

Matt Эллен

so, none of the rules

tchrist

How garbage collectors work.

How garbage collection works.

TemporaryNickName

So Garabage Collector in the sentence is "definite article"

Matt Эллен

no

tchrist

1:32 PM

no nononononnoonnoon

Matt Эллен

it's a noun phrase

10 mins ago, by tchrist

English articles are a, an, and the.

TemporaryNickName

ah ok

Cerberus

@Mitch I tend to agree. Rarely does "zero" add anything in linguistics over an ordinary negation.

TemporaryNickName

learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/en/english-grammar/…

that's definite article

I see

Matt Эллен

yes

@Cerberus am I the zero Cerberus?

Cerberus

1:34 PM

@TemporaryNickName Note that this is a sentence fragment, not a complete sentence. Such fragments are often used as titles.

@MattЭллен I see one head, not zero.

Matt Эллен

So I am the definite Cerberus?

Cerberus

Are you I?

Matt Эллен

I am

Cerberus

By the way, I hate smoking.

Matt Эллен

Me too!

Cerberus

1:35 PM

Can I do something about that?

Matt Эллен

You should quit

Cerberus

I have never smoked in my life.

And yet I suffer the consequences.

Matt Эллен

Then don't start

Cerberus

Smoking in pubs and clubs is illegal here.

Matt Эллен

good?

doesn't sound like a bad consequence for you, only for smokers

Cerberus

1:37 PM

And yet, after washing the clothes I wore on Friday, and putting them in the dryer afterwards, my house began to stink of wet ashtrays.

It was horrible.

Matt Эллен

??

Cerberus

Everyone smokes in pubs and clubs.

Matt Эллен

but it's illegal. how do they get away with it?

Cerberus

Tell me about it!!

Matt Эллен

noöne smokes indoors here, except in private residences

Cerberus

1:38 PM

The proscription does not work here.

How is it enforced on your fair island?

Matt Эллен

it's even illegal for cabbies to smoke in their own cabs

Cerberus

Heh.

I don't recall cabbies ever doing that—but then cabs are more expensive than anywhere else in the world here. Another failure.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus AFAIK blind obedience, disparaging looks, and landlords who won't put up with it.

Cerberus

Really? But the landlords all want the smoking here.

Matt Эллен

I guess we understand about not hurting other people with passive smoking?

I don't know. non-smokers outnumber smokers

Cerberus

1:40 PM

Yeah.

But apparently it doesn't work here.

Doesn't the government enforce it?

Matt Эллен

how do you mean?

Cerberus

People don't smoke inside at birthday parties any more.

@MattЭллен I don't know, send inspectors?

Matt Эллен

there are no police in pubs making sure it doesn't happen

tchrist

@Cerberus Execute them.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus not that I know of

tchrist

1:42 PM

@MattЭллен There are here.

Cerberus

@tchrist I wish. But, alas, many of my friends smoke...

@tchrist What's the penalty?

tchrist

Unclean.

Matt Эллен

I think it's even illegal to smoke under bus shelters

Cerberus

The bar gets a (manageable) fine here.

Matt Эллен

which seems exessive

tchrist

1:42 PM

Fine to the smoker and the establishment alike.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен That may be true here as well. You're only allowed to smoke at train platforms near the smoking "poles", at least.

And I agree that is a bit excessive.

Matt Эллен

I don't know what would happen if a proprietor was found to have smokers indoors

tchrist

Is it that the Dutch have a higher smoking rate, or the gay community there, or both? You aren’t hanging out in clubs again, are you? :)

Cerberus

@tchrist The smoker is fined, really?

How much?

tchrist

@Cerberus Of course: he has committed the infraction, so gets the fine.

TemporaryNickName

1:43 PM

Can I ask you a very stupid question that might require you to read my mind?

tchrist

I don’t remember. Like $500 or $2,000 per ciggy.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus oh train platforms are right out. completely. not even smoking Poles.

@TemporaryNickName you can try

TemporaryNickName

You know in English, we always use these short combination of words to mean something like "Stand up", "Spot on"and etc

Cerberus

@tchrist What does that have to do with sexual orientation? I don't believe smoking is related to that. Smoking rates are probably about equal. They are probably about average in my country, like 25 % or so. 2. What is this "gay community"? There is no such thing. I was in both straight and gay bars on Friday, and people smoke everywhere. I rather think the Dutch are just very non-law-abiding.

TemporaryNickName

What is the technical term for this?

I want to learn more

about it

tchrist

1:46 PM

It’s $500.

@Cerberus Yes, I know I know. But I know more gay smokers than straight ones.

Here it is tied to education levels.

Cerberus

@tchrist Our laws are rarely if ever like that: it is never illegal for private citizens to do such things, although in this case I would want to make an exception.

@MattЭллен Oh, my.

@tchrist Wow. Just wow. Your justice system...

tchrist

It is not illegal to smoke in a no-smoking area? Really?

How does that work?

Cerberus

@TemporaryNickName Start with "phrasal verbs" and "prepositional verbs".

TemporaryNickName

oh yeah =D, now I can remember!

thx

Cerberus

Good luck!

tchrist

1:49 PM

If it is not illegal to smoke in a no-smoking area, then it is not a no-smoking area.

Cerberus

@tchrist Yes, absolutely. Income and education reduce smoking. Hence the high rates in poor countries.

TemporaryNickName

How many phrasal verbs do you think a fluent speaker must know? 1 million?

Cerberus

@tchrist It is illegal to allow people to smoke in your establishment, but customers are not fined. Perhaps it is illegal for them too, but I believe there is no fine for them.

@TemporaryNickName Naaaah just 999,999.

tchrist

Many bars, pubs, and clubs have an outdoor area specifically designated as the smoking area. For cafés, it varies, as there may be outdoor seating, in which case, smoking is also forbidden there.

Matt Эллен

@TemporaryNickName phrasal verb knowing is an ever growing area of knowledge.

but probably not quite 1000000

Cerberus

1:51 PM

@tchrist Smoking is forbidden in outdoor seating areas?

tchrist

@Cerberus If food is being served, certainly!

Cerberus

Here smoking is allowed outside, and in special smoking-rooms, if bars have them.

TemporaryNickName

It's over 9000!!!

tchrist

It used to be that way here.

Cerberus

@tchrist I don't know, if it is outside...it doesn't bother me a great deal, at least not nearly as much as inside.

tchrist

1:52 PM

They got rid of the indoor smoking some time ago, and the outdoor food area is new.

Cerberus

Hmm why did they get rid of smoking-rooms?

tchrist

I mean, they got rid of indoor smoking even in special rooms.

Cerberus

@TemporaryNickName Yay!

tchrist

I no longer recall why.

Cerberus

Smoking-rooms don't bother me that much, except when people keep the door open (grrrr).

tchrist

1:53 PM

That was illegal.

Cerberus

No doubt.

I mean smokers were leaning against the door.

Those doors are always self-closing.

tchrist

I never went out to anywhere that allowed smoking.

When I moved to Boulder 20 years ago, there was exactly one no-smoking pub, and it was the only one I would ever frequent for that very reason.

Now they all are, but I seldom venture out.

Cerberus

Perhaps you should try it.

tchrist

Hm, 21 years ago, actually, and going on 22.

I seldom care for barlife.

Matt Эллен

I still remember when restaurants would ask if you'd like a "smoking or non" table

tchrist

1:56 PM

Or aeroplanes.

Cerberus

Right.

tchrist

Whatever those are. :)

Matt Эллен

seems so long ago

Cerberus

I remember sitting in the smoking compartments in trains, because at least there were always seats there.

tchrist

Passive smoke has sent me into respiratory arrest before, and the emergency room. It is not worth it.

Cerberus

1:59 PM

Indeed not.

Luckily it does not affect me so.

> For a victim of "revenge porn" who didn't take the photo, ... it might be tougher to take legal action. Other laws [than copyright law] that could conceivably be broken, like defamation or invasion of privacy, don't have the large damage awards that make filing a copyright suit attractive to lawyers. In addition, these sites may have a defense in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, which prevents sites from being held liable for user-posted content.

> A finding of copyright infringement could lead to huge damages against Brittain—up to $150,000 per work for willful infringement.

A broken justice system.

Revenge porn is when your ex or somebody else posts nude pictures of you an website like the one in the article, operated by Mr Brittain above. To have them taken off, you need to pay the site $ 250. That would be extortion here.

arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/02/…

Hugo

2:32 PM

@Cerberus That sounds just like a Monty Python sketch.

Cerberus

@Hugo If only!

> "The Mexican telecommunications market is dominated by a single company with 80 percent of the fixed line market and 70 percent of the mobile phone market, " reads the report. The average market share of the largest telecom company in the 34 other countries that the OECD examined, including the U.S., Japan, and Chile, is roughly 40 percent.

> In total, Mexicans are being overcharged $13.4 billion a year, according to the report, and poor people are being charged disproportionately higher. This equals a $25 billion cost to the Mexican economy each year, which is equivalent to nearly 2 percent of the country's GDP, say the report's authors.

Hugo

@Cerberus I mean it really does. This one: youtube.com/watch?v=wZgwNutwK0Y

Cerberus

news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57369357-93/…

@Hugo Haha, great.

Too bad the film was so unclear.

I couldn't tell whether it was you or not.

Luckily you called in in time.

RegDwighт

2:50 PM

The theft of a giant golden cookie from the Hanover headquarters of Bahlsen, one of Germany's most famous food companies, seems close to a happy resolution. The shadowy "Cookie Monster" who has been holding the biscuit ransom has announced he will return the emblem.

Police in Hanover have retrieved what is believed to be the missing golden Liebniz cookie, the emblem of local food company Bahlsen. The decoration, which had disappeared a few weeks ago, apparently suffered light damage.

Sudhir

Hi @MattЭллен

How are you?

TemporaryNickName

How would you rate "Grammar in Use" book if you have read or worked with the book before?

Mahnax

3:15 PM

Good morning.

Matt Эллен

Hello.

Mahnax

How's it going?

Matt Эллен

Feeling a little under the weather. Nothing serious. How are you?

Mahnax

I'm well, thanks.

Just working on an English commentary.

Matt Эллен

what are you commenting on?

Mahnax

3:24 PM

An excerpt from The Loom by R.L. Sasaki.

Matt Эллен

Sasaki?

Mahnax

Yes, that's the one.

Thank you.

Matt Эллен

no probs. I've not heard of it, so Google was telling me things

Mahnax

Ah, that Google. A sly one, it is.

Matt Эллен

Sorry. I'm busy with w--k. so many bugs to fix, so few time

Mahnax

3:36 PM

I understand.

TemporaryNickName

3:46 PM

Guys

I have a question

chompchomp.com/terms/infinitivephrase.htm

On this page, it explains "To win the approval of her mother" or "To survive Dr. Peterson's boring history lectures" are nouns.

But aren't "win the approval of her mother" and "survive Dr. Peterson's boring history lectures" nouns?

That's how my teacher taught me in Highschool as far as I can remember XD

JSBձոգչ

4:03 PM

GOOD LORD what kind of nonsense are they teaching kids these days in school

those aren't nouns

they're prepositional phrases

headed by the preposition to, and followed by a non-finite verb phrase

seriously nouns?! wtf

@TemporaryNickName note that this is not what the page actually says. the page says that the infinitive phrase "functions as a noun", which is not the same thing as actually being a noun

and now i must correct myself: those aren't prepositional phrases but infinitive phrases

am i the only one in here right now? how disappointing.

i come back after a hiatus and this is what greets me

Matt Эллен

4:18 PM

Oh, it's all change here @JSBձոգչ we're trying out not saying so much. Or something. People are just unreliable.

JSBձոգչ

i don't like it

but at least the terrifying orc head is back

what's been going on here?

Matt Эллен

I think the main thing is that the TPTB were somewhat...

hmmm

They didn't treat Reg right

but that seems to have blown over, or I didn't get a memo

and ELL has gone into public beta

it seems the meta thread that caused the upset between TPTB and Reg is gone.

but basically a user said Reg abused his power, TPTB might have sided with the user. I don't know because I'm not party to such things. Shog was on Reg's side, though.

Oh, and Jasper really retired his EL&U account.

but he still comes by chat, so it's not all bad

JSBձոգչ

it seems like we're always getting on the side of TPTB

i'm surprised it was Reg

if anyone, i would have guessed that Sim would be overbearing

anyway... off to meetings

Matt Эллен

Well, I wouldn't say Reg was overbearing. It's just one of those things.

a misunderstanding

CU

Mahnax

4:33 PM

Enjoy your meetings, @JSB. Nice to see you around.

Yannbane

5:00 PM

Hey, I have a very short question if it's OK...

What's the difference between "in order to do so, I changed x to y", "in order to do so, I had changed x to y" and "in order to do so, I have changed x to y"?

MετάEd

5:20 PM

1

A: Verb Forms and Their Usage

The perfect tense indicates completion. Past Perfect Tense Used to express an action that was completed in the past. It is constructed with the past tense of have (had) and the past participle of the verb. Examples: had done, had seen, had gone, had taken. An example sentence: I was grief-str...

Mitch

5:37 PM

Bill, Sorry I flagged your comment as a user of rude and offensive language. It is not in my level to reply this very inappropriate language here.I will not reply you again. I think some rules of FAQ give a chance to trolls like you to show your hate and try hate talk without any punishment. I think it needs some improvements. — SnowFlake 10 mins ago

SnowFlake is being difficult. I think he has good questions, but is coming across as both sensitive and though not belligerent, quick to take offense. But it seems that comments to him are not teaching him the culture here. How to deal with this?

Cerberus

The culture could change?

JSBձոգչ

i want a culture where we get lots of religious holidays and brightly colored clothing

and good food

Cerberus

!

I was just typing "...and pancakes".

JSBձոգչ

so basically mexico, i guess

but maybe with less corruption

Cerberus

Which I am eating right now.

JSBձոգչ

5:41 PM

though i'm flexible on the corruption

Cerberus

And less than half of the country being terrorised by the Mafia killing innocents?

That would be nice.

JSBձոգչ

do you mean drug lords?

the mafia is italian

maybe not mexico. we could compromise on peru or somewhere else in latin america

Cerberus

I call all organised crime like that mafia.

JSBձոգչ

actually, india also fits the bill very well

Cerberus

Everyone who has visited India says the same:

JSBձոգչ

5:43 PM

and i think i prefer indian food to mexican

Cerberus

Filth.

I probably prefer Indian food too.

JSBձոգչ

i visited india. the filth was manageable.

Cerberus

It's not my kind of country.

And the begging.

JSBձոգչ

begging only happens to white people

Cerberus

They may bring their food here, plase.

JSBձոգչ

5:44 PM

my wife could probably pass as a relatively fair indian

i definitely cannot

Cerberus

I am cursed with this whiteness.

Though I'm not such a milk bottle as you are.

JSBձոգչ

i'm not actually saying that i want to move to india. just that i wouldn't mind trading this boring north european culture for something with more festivals and color and spicy food

Cerberus

I don't know. The stiffness fits me well.

JSBձոգչ

unless you think that those are intrinsically linked to poverty and filth and begging

Cerberus

There is perhaps a link, but a weak one that is for all practical purposes inconsequential.

MετάEd

5:46 PM

Santorum Concern for Boy Scouts

JSBձոգչ

i think the link is a historical accident

but i could be wrong

Cerberus

Weber would say there is a link.

Stiffness ~ conscientiousness ~ Protestantism ~ work ethic ~ capitalism.

The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism

The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism is a book written by Max Weber, a German sociologist, economist, and politician. Begun as a series of essays, the original German text was composed in 1904 and 1905, and was translated into English for the first time by Talcott Parsons in 1930. It is considered a founding text in economic sociology and sociology in general. In the book, Weber wrote that capitalism in northern Europe evolved when the Protestant (particularly Calvinist) ethic influenced large numbers of people to engage in work in the secular world, developing their own ...

It is of course a little bit too easy...

No strong link exists.

JSBձոգչ

there is certainly a correlation

but i'm not convinced that it's actually causation

though i've heard it argued many times

Cerberus

If there is a causal relation, it is certainly indirect.

As in, a culture developed in which elements stand out that interact in various ways.

Social science is not science.

It can be great, but it's not science in the Anglo-Saxon way, it is not exact.