English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

5:00 PM

nothing at all to do with copying anything.

@MετάEd It is such an egregious, abusive bit that it tells me something about the probability that other bits of American contract law are not fit to be leading in moral arguments either. And then I happen to know more about it, which points in the same direction. Hence my "if only".

MετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The only case in which that would be problematic is if you had to use the Sprint software to erase itself. The ouroboros of phone unlocking. The Sprint software would essentially then be the unlocking software too.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Do they even lock down Nexus??

MετάEd

@Cerberus No, that's like judging an entire culture based on a few loudmouths in a chatroom. Most people are nice; the loudmouths just seem bigger than they are.

Most US contract law is friendly old lawyers writing up stuff between farmers and banks.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd I'm 99.99% sure that it doesn't have anything to do with software owned by sprint. Unless you're going to say that Sprint locks the phones by putting Sprint firmware on the phone itself. Which I can't dispute because I don't know. But even then, I should be able to unlock it by removing that firmware, or else it should fall under the doctrine of first sale because I own the hardware.

Cerberus

5:02 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I know. But I was surprised by Ed's coupling of contract and morality. I mean, there is some relation, but it isn't one to one, not for me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus In some cases, yes.

Anyway, of course I only buy unlocked phones now. And recommend the same to everyone I know.

Cerberus

@MετάEd Well, a legal system is different from a culture, in that it is supposed to be a system. If you see bad coding in a program you have to work with, don't you trust the program less?

MετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Phone unlocking is defined as circumventing the security which prevents you from modifying the phone software so that you can re-network it.

Cerberus

@MετάEd Sure, in most cases it will work fine.

I didn't mean to say it was all bad; just that there are some fundamental flaws.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd Um... but the phone typically doesn't require modifying of its software to re-network it.

MετάEd

5:05 PM

@Cerberus The legal system is part of the culture. It's not separate. Culture has many things in it too, but the legal system is one of those things.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The question isn't whether you modify the software, the question is whether you circumvent the security which protects the software from unauthorized use.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd but "unauthorized use" is not a feature of copyright. You have to make a copy to invoke copyright.

MετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 A copy was made for you, and licensed to your use with conditions. That's the copy we're talking about.

The copy of the software that is on your phone.

You got that software not by purchase but by license.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd I dispute that the phone's GSM stack was "licensed to me". I bought the phone. I didn't license the phone.

Cerberus

@MετάEd What if Sprint takes an existing bit of (free?) phone-locking code, changes it a little bit, then formally brands it as its own? They would do that if they could...

MετάEd

It used to be the carriers were not so smart about that. They simply sold you a copy of the software. Now they license it to you.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I never said the GSM stack was the software.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:07 PM

@MετάEd That's where the lock lives.

Cerberus

@MετάEd Yes. But I wasn't talking about the culture in general. We can talk about that if you like, but I was only criticising this particular element of it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's not in the OS.

MετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Maybe the GSM stack is the software. That's for someone more knowledgeable than me to know.

There are all kinds of software in a phone these days.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway, I don't think the claim that they're "licensing" the firmware of the phone would stand up in court. No judge would accept that.

It has to be that the DMCA is explicitly disallowing this somehow. But I don't see how the interpretation fits. I'd really like to see the specific language, or a court ruling.

MετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Why? There are plenty of phones on the market you can buy that are not locked. If you choose to buy one that has restrictive licensing terms, that's your fault.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:11 PM

@MετάEd So you're telling me that if I bought a phone with no subsidy, and also signed up for cell service, that they'd give me a different contract? And the phone would be unlocked? Please. The phones are all sold locked.

Cerberus

@MετάEd Suppose I make a copy of a piece of software and use it to hack a bank. Then can the bank sue me for copyright infringement? No, because the main illegal act is hacking the bank, not copying the software. Now suppose that the bank gives me software that I am not supposed to use to hack the bank, but I do it anyway. Can they now sue me for copyright infringement?

I don't think so: I did do something illegal with the software (and software is always a copy of something), but the bank still has no standing.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

You have to buy your phones from the manufacturer if you want unlocked.

MετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The DMCA specifically disallows the circumvention of security mechanisms that protect a person's copyright. When you defeat the security mechanisms so that you can violate your license to use the copyrighted software, that's when DMCA comes in to play.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Perhaps it won't stand up in court?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd I still think it's a huge stretch to call carrier-locking a copyright security mechanism.

MετάEd

5:12 PM

@Cerberus Surely they can get you under DMCA as well as other things.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The phones are not all sold locked. That was one of the big reasons that the Registrar of Copyright decided the exemption wasn't needed for new phones, just for legacy phones.

Cerberus

@MετάEd DMCA, sure. But under "making an illegal copy"?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd Only the copyright holder can sure for copyright infringement. If the bank gives you a piece of software, and you modify it, you are probably within your rights as the owner of that copy, unless you signed a real contract regarding the software itself. Courts have been unfriendly to the notion that software is never sold.

MετάEd

No, using a copy illegally.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd The doctrine of first sale gives you a wide range of options for how you "use" a copy of a work.

MετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Right. And phone companies wised up about ten years ago and started writing better contracts. They are the ones to blame here; they played the system.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:15 PM

e.g. a book maker can't sue you for writing in the margins of the book.

tchrist

@MετάEd You’re a C programmer, right?

Remember the old cdecl program? Now it’s a web service.

Try it with this: void (*signal(int, void (*)(int)))(int), which is of course the proper declaration for signal(3).

> declare signal as function (int, pointer to function (int) returning void) returning pointer to function (int) returning void

This is why people avoid function pointers in C. It hurts.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway, I leave for lunch with this bit of news: Austrian Muslim group thinks Lego Jabba's Palace is racist

tchrist

It is also why I am here on ELU answering questions about who/whom instead of hanging out on SO trying to figure out elaborate function declarations.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Haha nice. Bai!

@tchrist We understand.

tchrist

It’s easier. A lot easier.

KitFox

5:25 PM

@Jason No, but thanks for asking.

MετάEd

5:54 PM

@tchrist Not when I can help it. Yes, the fact that this is necessary is pretty damned funny.

tchrist

6:33 PM

Phonetics is not the same as phonology. Phonology is like gun control laws; Phonetics is like the NRA. — John Lawler 3 mins ago

Learn something new every day.

Sudhir

Hi

@Mahnax: How are you?

aedia λ

Good afternoon!

Sudhir

Good evening

From India

Hi @aediaλ

How are you?

aedia λ

@Sudhir Hiya! I'm pretty good. Still finishing up w-rk. How about you?

Sudhir

I am fine

aedia λ

6:42 PM

I'm hoping to go see a friend's house if we don't get snow tonight.

Sudhir

Oh! great

Its snowing there?

aedia λ

looks out window

Not yet, but it's about -9 C and could start any time.

Sudhir

Oh

You are programmer?

Thank God. In India its not too cold

What happened ?

aedia λ

@Sudhir More like a web designer and writer, but I went to school for computer science.

Sudhir

Oh! Great

I also work as PHP programmer for a company that outsources from US to India.

If you don't mind we can chat here.

Still waiting

?

@aediaλ

aedia λ

6:54 PM

@Sudhir Oh, I don't mind! I am just trying to do other things at the same time, so I might be slow to answer. You might have better luck at a time when more people are around.

Sudhir

You know Resonance company?

in US?

aedia λ

It is still the workday for those of us in the US, and some of our European regulars are probably commuting.

@Sudhir Hmm, I don't think so.

Sudhir

If you don't mind

Can I ask one question?

For freshers how companies recruit in US?

Mahnax

@Sudhir I am well, thank you. And yourself?

Sudhir

I am good

Its my sleeping time.

Mahnax

7:00 PM

Ah yes, it must be quite late there.

user19161

OK guys I have submitted my request for account deletion. I will still be around on SE on the math site though.

5

Mahnax

Jasper, noooo!

aedia λ

@Sudhir Freshers? You mean entry-level jobs?

@JasonBourne Nooo!

Sudhir

Yeah

Mahnax

mentally prepares self for loss of 980 rep

We will miss you, Jasper.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:01 PM

Noo!

user19161

This is just to let you know, not to attract attention.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasonBourne everything you do here is to attract attention :)

even your votes are accompanied with chatroom messages declaring them.

Mahnax

@JasonBourne Thank you for telling us. You will still come to chat, won't you?

user19161

I am sorry for making you lose rep, and I am sorry I have cast revenge votes now and then (just a few, not many, on some users of this site).

Sudhir

@aediaλ:yes

Mahnax

7:03 PM

My maths exam starts in an hour.

sighs

user19161

@Mahnax What topic is it?

Mahnax

@JasonBourne Um, all of Maths 20. So quadratics, rational expressions, sequences and series, systems, inequalities, and some other stuff.

Sudhir

Oh! I know all

@Mahnax

Mahnax

Trig, too.

Sudhir

I am very good on Trig

Mahnax

7:05 PM

@Sudhir Nice! I am in year 11 in high school right now, so this is my final exam.

I got 100% on the trig unit exam.

Sudhir

Oh all the best

user19161

@Mahnax Hmm OK, you might use more of the math site next time when you enter university I guess.

Mahnax

@JasonBourne Well, I will be doing a calculus course next year, so maybe if I will be of use there.

user19161

@Mahnax As part of your IB? Hmm, anyway, a calculus course can mean many things. Maybe no proofs or many proofs, so it can be at many levels.

Mahnax

@JasonBourne Who knows. Oh, I also did a unit on vectors, but that won't be on this final exam.

The vectors unit was an IB unit.

user19161

7:08 PM

@Mahnax Hmm, I like vectors in high school. Do you do 3D or 2D?

Mahnax

@JasonBourne Both, but mainly 2D.

aedia λ

@JasonBourne You better keep that math account so you can visit us here. If I hear of you deleting any more accounts I will... I will... I don't know. Stomp and breathe fire!

Mahnax

@aediaλ Hear, hear!

user19161

@aediaλ Yes, I intend to keep my math account for life.

user19161

And I also intend not to create any more new accounts.

aedia λ

7:10 PM

that's hyperbole and a half's unicorn I borrowed

Sudhir

@aediaλ:

I am leaving for the day

Mahnax

Jasper, I hope you at least record your final numbers from EL&U so you can realize how incredible you've been here.

user19161

@Mahnax Well, I got many presents after all!

Sudhir

Bye Guys. Good night

Mahnax

@JasonBourne Yes, and you contributed so much here!

Good night, @Sudhir.

user19161

7:12 PM

@Mahnax Yes, I am sorry I pissed off some people too sometimes.

Mahnax

433 answers, 19 questions, and 9275 votes.

That's crazy good.

user19161

@mah Which year will you be a freshman?

Mahnax

@JasonBourne There's no need to apologize for anything like that. Everyone gets angry at everyone else sometimes.

@JasonBourne I don't know. We don't use those terms here.

Oh, do you mean for uni?

user19161

@Mahnax Yes, freshman means first year in uni.

Mahnax

2014-2015 will be my first year.

@JasonBourne I thought you meant HS at first.

But now I must go, my exam calleth. Farewell, friends.

user19161

7:13 PM

@Mahnax Oh, that is actually next year! You are a big boy now!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

good luck

user19161

@Mahnax Bye! Good luck!

Mahnax

@JasonBourne Hehe.

Bye!

aedia λ

@Sudhir G'night!

@Mahnax I'm sure you'll do stellar.

Matt Эллен

7:31 PM

kncok 'em dead @Mahnax

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@aediaλ There hasn't been many updates on that site in a while. Has Allie disappeareded?

aedia λ

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think so. Something I read on the interwebs a while ago led me to believe she was still ok and just not up to dealing with the site, I think - I'm looking for it...