English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

12:33 AM

Cerberus

1:01 AM

On some Melanesian islands, people have dark skins and blond hair, like this boy from Vanuatu.

tchrist

@Cerberus Where are the other two?

Cerberus

?

Joseph Weissman

1:31 AM

???

Cerberus

Indeed.

I had forgotten than New Zealand was not colonised from Australia or New Guinea, but from Polynesia.

Joseph Weissman

How's your Sunday, Mr. @Cerberus?

Cerberus

And so their language is Austronesian (like most south-east-Asian islands, except those around New Guinea). The Austronesian language family came from Taiwan, which again came from mainland China.

Joseph Weissman

Interesting!

Cerberus

They arrived much, much later than the Melanesians, the people on and around New Guinea.

The Australian Aboriginals are also very old, and I think they are related to Melanesian, but I am not sure.

At a certain time, the sea between both huge islands was land, and the continent was called (the?) Sahul.

Joseph Weissman

1:36 AM

Hmmm. Melanesians?

Cerberus

Melas = black, Nesos = island.

Black islanders, because their skin is dark.

Joseph Weissman

Right. (Sorry, you had written "Menalesian.")

Cerberus

Arg! Not again. I already corrected myself the first time.

Joseph Weissman

Just being persnickety. Please continue the lesson, if there's more cool things to know here :)

Cerberus

hit hand on table as a punishment for typos

Joseph Weissman

1:37 AM

lol

Cerberus

Existing Austronesian languages are all located on Taiwan; only one branch, whose name I have forgotten, spread from the island over the Philippines, Indonesia, Polynesia, and New Zealand; but also to the Malay peninsula and to Madagascar!

And to Hawai'i.

Joseph Weissman

Wow. Languages or viruses?

Cerberus

Language is a disease, huh?

Joseph Weissman

Lacan says the unconscious is structured like a language.

Nick Land says if this is so, it's only because language has the structure of a plague.

Cerberus

I wonder why they never settled on N.G. and Australia. Or perhaps they did, but they were later assimilated by Melanesians/Aboriginals.

Haha.

Joseph Weissman

1:43 AM

(Guattari says it would have to be a mathematical language...)

Cerberus

But I wonder why Lacan says that.

Joseph Weissman

Me too.

Lacan is very cryptic, even mystical sometimes...

Cerberus

I rather think it is structured in various and/or complex ways. There will be some resemblance with language, because language emerged from the mind.

But I rather think language is an extremely simplified abstract of certain specific mental functions that were worth communicating to others.

Joseph Weissman

Well, the idea that the unconscious is structured like a language has to do most likely I would think with the signifier, the symbolic order, etc.

Cerberus

Simplified in that the density of information in language is infinitely smaller than that of thoughts inside the mind.

Joseph Weissman

1:46 AM

(The signifier has primacy over the signified.)

Cerberus

I suppose a distinction between conscious and un-(why not sub-?)conscious requires argumentation and definition.

Joseph Weissman

Also: substitution and displacement are equally fundamental linguistic and psychological operations.

Cerberus

And also physical operations.

I think a huge deal of our thinking originates in conceptual metaphors.

Joseph Weissman

Well, for Lacan it's much tighter, right? Metonymy parallels almost precisely the displacement of desire in the dreamwork

Cerberus

I don't know Lacan well.

Joseph Weissman

1:48 AM

Likewise metaphor is condensation, coalescence of images, substitution of one figure for another

For Lacan, desire is a voracious lack that must be either displaced or substituted; these operations end up generating an unconscious signifying chain that (like the unconscious) leaves legible traces behind

Cerberus

@JosephWeissman Mainly the last...

Displaced?

> Most archaeologists estimate that the earliest settlers arrived in outrigger canoes from southern Borneo in successive waves throughout the period between 350 BCE and 550 CE, making Madagascar one of the last major landmasses on Earth to be settled by humans.

Joseph Weissman

Fascinating.

Cerberus

When Plato wrote his dialogues, no human foot had ever touched Malagasy soil, probably.

I still wonder why people would canoe all the way from Borneo.

Joseph Weissman

Jacques Lacan

Jacques Marie Émile Lacan (; April 13, 1901 – September 9, 1981) was a French psychoanalyst and psychiatrist who made prominent contributions to psychoanalysis and philosophy, and has been called "the most controversial psycho-analyst since Freud". Lacan's post-structuralist theory rejected the belief that reality can be captured in language. Giving yearly seminars in Paris from 1953 to 1981, Lacan influenced France's intellectuals in the 1960s and the 1970s, especially the post-structuralist philosophers. His interdisciplinary work was as a "self-proclaimed Freudian....'It is up to you ...

Because it's there.

There's always disasters (natural or human) to flee.

The desire to leave the territory can become overwhelming for a lot of reasons, really.

Cerberus

But why not flee to, say, Thailand?

The Malay Peninsula?

Burma?

India?

It makes no sense!

Joseph Weissman

2:00 AM

Well, a quick though -- it strikes me that most early exploration works alongside a war machine of some kind -- whether commercial, military or religious...

The point is new lands to conquer, new resources, new people, etc.

Cerberus

There were always reasons...

But travelling is terribly costly.

Joseph Weissman

I mean, societies are always drifting, flowing away.

Cerberus

In terms of energy/survival/efficiency.

But they usually flow at a slow pace, gradually.

Joseph Weissman

It takes an enormous effort to keep them together.

Cerberus

Societies don't normally travel 7000 km at once, least of all by canoe...

They usually spread more gradually, and settle in areas in between as part of the process.

Why move along if you can stay where you are?

Joseph Weissman

2:04 AM

Why stay where you are when you can move along?

Cerberus

Because travel means death.

Joseph Weissman

(When you already want-need new places to move along to...)

Cerberus

Even on European ships, I think 1/3 of the crew died on their way to Indonesia.

And this is on giant ships that had countless ports to buy supplies.

I would think you would only travel 7000 km by canoe if you were desperate, if you had no other choice.

I can imagine this happening in the case of Polynesia.

Joseph Weissman

To live is to be hunted, on the run...

Cerberus

But you can see that they always travel to the closest island first.

Joseph Weissman

2:06 AM

It's definitely a crazy long way, though.

Cerberus

nods

Joseph Weissman

How to find it in an ocean that size. That's also interesting.

Cerberus

If you are on a tiny island, and there is no other land nearer by, it makes a little bit more sense.

Joseph Weissman

Just from a technical perspective.

Cerberus

Yeah.

Research into that area has been conducted for Polynesia.

Joseph Weissman

2:08 AM

I mean, even if I knew where to go before I started, and tried dead reckoning by the stars -- I imagine with that distance I'd stand pretty poor chance of actually making it.

Cerberus

Yeah.

But there are signs you can use.

Joseph Weissman

Interesting.

Cerberus

Such as drifting materials from the land.

Like seed, wood.

And the direction in which the birds fly.

It still seems impossible, but apparently they managed to do it.

Joseph Weissman

I mean, it sounds way more plausible now that you've mentioned they might've been following migrating animals :)

Cerberus

It is also possible that they planned a large expedition to a nearby island but were pushed far off course by a storm, then carried by a current.

@JosephWeissman Hey, I sense some (justified) sarcasm...

Joseph Weissman

2:11 AM

Heh.

The distance is still wildly impressive.

Cerberus

Yeah.

It is like taking off by canoe from Miami, peddling alongside Ireland (without landing—why would you!) and on to the Arctic circle.

Unless they landed on the way to Madagascar.

Which seems more likely to me.

Joseph Weissman

Um, yeah. Why not?

Lacan is interesting, but a lot of hot air sometimes. Even Zizek, who calls Lacan his master, says that Lacan's style is often a bluff, a game. He claims to read Lacan "classically," cutting through the style to the theoretical core.

(I mean, if I could stop off at Madagascar and replenish supplies, take a break, I'd totally do it.)

Cerberus

2:33 AM

Haha, bluff?

To what end?

@JosephWeissman So would I.

I am rereading Wiki articles on Near- and Middle-Eastern civilisations and peoples and languages.

I always feel that I have to know the prehistoric origins and connections of all the major ones.

And the most-mentioned ones.

Totally OCD.

You probably have this Wiki OCD with some subject too...

It's usually either language or history that causes this syndrome for me.

Joseph Weissman

Anything science or math. I'm off for ungodly chunks of time.

Cerberus

Yes I see.

Closer to (one of) your areas of expertise, I guess?

Many mathematical articles are unreadable if you aren't already familiar with certain other theories/concepts underlying them.

Phew, I have closed my last Wiki tab. Unbelievable!

MετάEd

3:27 AM

@Cerberus Following the language history is always fascinating.

What I love is how few words gave rise to the enormous vocabulary we have today.

MετάEd

3:40 AM

Proto-Indo-European Urheimat hypotheses

The Proto-Indo-European Urheimat hypotheses are tentative identifications of the range of the hypothetical Proto-Indo-European language with geographical regions over given times consistent with the glottochronology of the language tree, and of the implied culture with the archaeological cultures located at those places over those times. Identifications are made on the basis of how well, if at all, the projected migration routes and times of migration from the Urheimat, or primary homeland, fit the distribution of Indo-European languages, and how closely the sociological model of the origi...

Mitch

@MετάEd Three is all it takes.

MετάEd

You might only need do and it. :-)

Mitch

THE STRANGER
Thankie. . . Just one thing, Dude.
D'ya have to use s'many cuss words?

The Dude looks at The Stranger as if just now noticing how
out of place the cowpoke is.

DUDE
The fuck are you talking about?

imsdb.com/scripts/Big-Lebowski,-The.html

@MετάEd Or 'nnnngggg'

Then phonological changes create everything else.

MετάEd

4:06 AM

@Mitch Or "ow".

Cerberus

@MετάEd Yeah, well, there were probably a ton of other words that simply didn't survive...

@MετάEd Kurgan, huh?

MετάEd

@Cerberus I don't take a religious stance, if that's what you are asking.

Cerberus

Huh?

MετάEd

@Cerberus I don't favor a particular hypothesis.

Cerberus

Why not?

I believe Kurgan's is most widely adhered to.

MετάEd

4:10 AM

@Cerberus I have not taken the time to study them to the extent necessary to form a rational opinion.

I love how archaeology, linguistics, and genetics are being used together.

No matter how it turns out.

Cerberus

Okay, well, I believe most historical linguists favour Kurgan now.

No doubt based on all the archaeological and genetic evidence available.

TemporaryNickName

8:27 AM

tchrist

8:56 AM

@Cerberus Here is your proof that despite what certain dictionaries imply, Brits of at least some calibre do apply secondary stress to protons just as I would.

@tchrist Sure! Dawkins talks more on biology so I couldn't find one by him yet. Here is a BBC programme by Brain Cox and it sounds like he has kinda stressed it but I am not very sure. (I'm not used to the British Accent). So you should have a look. youtube.com/watch?v=-ZhZYtbPnag He started mentioning proton, neutron and electron at 08:43. — Arch 2 hours ago

@Arch Good find: I like Brian Cox. And you’re right, he definitely sounds like he is stressing the word proton in a way that gives secondary stress on the second syllable. It is not reducing, and it is aspirated. Strikes me as pretty clear confirmation. — tchrist 13 mins ago

Now, can we please stop bickering about how the British are “supposed” to speak and return to why that words gets secondary stress?

tchrist

9:14 AM

3

A: Don't let questions stick to the top of the hot questions list forever

One problem with hot questions seems to be that there is no way for "hotness algorithm" to differentiate genuine popularity from fake one, that is from popularity introduced by the algorithm itself. This is most likely what causes some questions to stick to the top for too long: the algorithm si...

TemporaryNickName

Guys, I have a question regarding to this.

________ all phones, the 1278 model is the most popular product.

a) By

b) Out

c) Near

d) Of

Those are answer selections and the answer for the blank area is d

I thought the answer must be Out of all phones, ..... But do you think d is correct? if so, how do you call this grammar rule?

tchrist

9:43 AM

Good morning, sleepy head.

RegDwighт

Hiyahs.

tchrist

I read a posting on meta saying they were thinking of or planning to do away with flag weight. Not sure why. Maybe too much gaming? Unclear.

I have to wander over to the work pooter now. Too much to do before daybreak.

RegDwighт

Maybe too useless.

tchrist

It does not matter here, of course.

RegDwighт

Yes.

tchrist

9:46 AM

And I wonder whether it actually helps anyone when the flag queues is hundreds long.

RegDwighт

We only have like two flags at a time.

tchrist

*flags?

RegDwighт

And we're a top 10 site.

@tchrist sleepy head.

tchrist

Right.

And we have the birdeater at the top of the MC.

It’s why I noticed the MSO post above. Indirectly.

RegDwighт

First time I see that question.

Happened entirely not on my watch.

tchrist

9:48 AM

Can’t be here always.

RegDwighт

I opted out in favor of finally watching Terminator IV last night.

Well.

tchrist

Deep subject.

RegDwighт

It was better than expected. Story-wise. But also still total crap. Story-wise.

Stuff no make sense.

I wonder what Ebert gave it.

tchrist

Regarding the quality of movies, I am either horribly jaded or else insufficiently programmed by the media machine. I find almost every one of them to be wastes of time and money, that give little pleasure in balance with their annoyances.

RegDwighт

I dunno. I saw a YouTube remix of movies from 1999 the other week, there were tons of great movies that year.

tchrist

9:53 AM

Sometimes I think the more money spent on hype and marketing, the less likely the picture will be viewworthy.

RegDwighт

I also used to go to the cinema twice a week. Now I haven't visited in like two years.

tchrist

It is like they are trying to precover their expected losses.

RegDwighт

And the last couple ones I saw in the cinema was really because of the technical side. Avatar and what have you.

tchrist

I know someone whose mom still goes to the cinema weekly, despite being in her 70s. Mine just turned that, and hasn’t been in years.

RegDwighт

I'd probably watch The Hobbit, too, if they were showing in 68.94 fps.

tchrist

9:54 AM

Get the 2D glasses.

RegDwighт

I have a pair.

tchrist

So do I.

RegDwighт

Mine have 0.0 dioptrien, though.

tchrist

It lets you see the 48fps version without being distracted by the 3D crud.

So you can judge it on its own merits.

RegDwighт

Next thing you know, they'll be charging five bucks extra for the privilege of having your seat face away from the screen.

tchrist

9:56 AM

We used to pay extra to be able to watch things without spamvertising.

Now we cannot do that, because the spamvertisers pay even more to take away that choice.

I feel held captive.

Like in A Clockwork Orange.

RegDwighт

Well what some people do here is just show up half an hour too late. Right in time for the actual movie.

Though I must say for me the stupid commercials have always been kind of part of the experience.

tchrist

Then there are DVDs with the no-fast-forward crap at the beginning. Who the fuck gets to say what I have to watch? That is so disgusting, evil, and wrong that I can almost see why people go postal.

RegDwighт

I mean, cinema is masochism anyway. To pay big bucks for being surrounded by people munching like pigs, interrupted only by stupid commentary or laughter at the most inopportune moments.

tchrist

You know, people of the folkses’ generation used to go to the cinema just to see the shorts at the beginning, kinda like warm-up bands at a pop music event.

I forget what they call those. Not warm-up bands. You know what I mean.

RegDwighт

Vorgruppe.

tchrist

10:00 AM

Sure.

RegDwighт

Opening act.

tchrist

Ah that is it.

"Tommy Show is opening for Rush on Saturday’s concert."

Time for me to make real coffee, I see.

RegDwighт

Have fun.

I'll go check if we have crack cocaine.

user19161

@TemporaryNickName My password is ************.

RegDwighт

Hunter900042!

user19161

10:04 AM

I know that meme.

RegDwighт

What meme?

I was repeating your password to remember it better.

user19161

But it is true. My password is 12 characters long and I use it on everything.

RegDwighт

MariahCarrey.

user19161

My computer login, google, gravatar.

user19161

It is easy to remember for me but impossible to guess for others.

user19161

10:06 AM

And it contains numbers, capitals and smalls so it satisfies all password criteria everywhere.

user19161

One password to rule them all.

RegDwighт

M4riahCarrey.

user19161

I will change it when I have decided on the next one, but all your guesses are wrong!

RegDwighт

Of course you would say that.

user19161

But hey Mariah Carey is a good idea.

RegDwighт

10:08 AM

Just make sure not to misspell her.

user19161

But now you have said it I can't use it for the next one anymore.

user19161

But even if all my accounts are hacked, it is fine. I won't lose anything important.

RegDwighт

10:21 AM

0

Q: Why express like this?

Now I am reading a book written in English. In the book there is a sentence: "Our initial version of Cauchy's theorem begins with the observation that is suffices that f(z)(a function) have a primitive in a region(the book denote with a greek symbol Omega)" in this sentence, I think the author w...

sentence

Indeed, why express like this?

Em1

10:32 AM

@RegDwighт Why did you delete that funny answer on "roll one's eyes"? :( I like that interpretation

RegDwighт

Because answers are not comments, and site is not chat.

Em1

;)

RegDwighт

And as a 1-rep user he hasn't earned his right to goof off.

Matt Эллен

Hello!

RegDwighт

Lionel!

It's not me you're looking for.

Matt Эллен

10:36 AM

You're looking for me?

jinx

RegDwighт

That's not a jinx, that's an anagram. And a crappy one at that.

Matt Эллен

Ω

RegDwighт

Take lessons from R to the O to the B to the usto. El giusto, with gusto.

Matt Эллен

most coffee drinkers prefer Arabica to Robusta

RegDwighт

Most flies prefer shit to everything.

Matt Эллен

10:38 AM

well, there's no accounting for taste

RegDwighт

11:13 AM

Today is like some kind of Late Saturday.

Matt Эллен

maybe there was a pineapple fiesta over the weekend

RegDwighт

►

Cerberus

@tchrist This is totally irrelevant. You are pretending that I said anything about stress. It is the ASPIRATED T that you denied, and now you are creating a huge strawman, as usual. Just admit defeat when its boots are standing on your face.

Matt Эллен

Cerberus

@RegDwighт The genre is not at all hard to define! It's simply a musical animated myth-cum-debate. D'oh.

@MattЭллен Hello.

Matt Эллен

11:25 AM

Hi!

The tick's other battle cry was "Not in the face!"

but I couldn't find a pic of that

Cerberus

@tchrist In short, the t is always aspirated in words like photo and batter in RP, and so proton is not irregular. Your question should therefore be tagged according to those regional variant(s) of English in which it is valid, which includes american-english.

@MattЭллен Hmm what tick?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus the blue guy the the picture.

Cerberus

Ahh.

I'm afraid he and I are as of yet unacquainted.

Matt Эллен

I'm sure you'll get a long just fine.

Cerberus

We'll get a long, huh?

Matt Эллен

11:29 AM