English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

I always see signs such as Men at work or Children at play I was wondering why we use "at" in this way. Is it just a formal way of saying Men Working / Children Playing? Saying "At Lunch" seems sensible, yet even so I would only use this if I were out of the office etc, I wouldnt sa...

kiamlaluno

It's difficult you read uomini al lavoro.

Uomini al lavoro could be understood as "men at the working place."

That is an interesting question.

I mean, it's interesting the question you asked about how we say "children at play" in Italian.

Robusto

@RegDwight — You're so ... static.

kiamlaluno

12:28 PM

I think we would probably say "children in area" or "place where children play."

RegDwight

Hey @Robusto, can I have your thoughts on this:

5

A: Why do we say “Japan earthquake” and not “Japanese earthquake”?

I'm not sure there is necessarily a rule for this type of situation - that is, when to use the name of the country and when to use the adjectival form. I think in many cases it's decided almost unconsciously based on what rolls off the tongue the easiest. The 'n' at the end of 'Japan' flows nicel...

I am very skeptical about this answer, as you can read in my comment.

Robusto

Yes. I can see the problem.

For one thing, the way the main question is phrased is an example of the fallacy of complex question.

The fact is, we don't call it "the Japan earthquake"; we either call it the earthquake in Japane or the Japanese earthquake.

The thing is, like you, I would say "the California earthquake" instead of "the Californian earthquake" ... puzzling.

I would also refer to an earthquake in Chile as "the Chilean earthquake" — God, am I inconsistent!

RegDwight

That's actually quite interesting. Let's have some more examples, if you don't mind. What about other -ia's — India, Russia, Malaysia, Australia, Polynesia, Georgia, Armenia?

JSBangs

i'd use -an with all of those

euphony seems to win there, as the adjectival ending -an avoids the hiatus that would otherwise result from *India earthquake"

Robusto

Indian, Russian, Malaysian, Australian, Polynesian, Gergian, Armenian.

JSBangs

12:40 PM

India tsunami seems less marked... but I think I still prefer Indian tsunami even there

so it's not just euphony

RegDwight

The thing is, both Japan and Japanese end in a consonant.

Cerberus

Greetings.

Robusto

I think it's maybe about countries vs. American states. I cannot think of a case where I would refer to a quake in a state with an "-an" ending

RegDwight

@Robusto I was thinking about that, too. What's with North Carolina vs North Carolinian and all that.

Robusto

The Florida hurricane, the Texas tornado, the Missouri earthquake ...

Cerberus

12:42 PM

Another thing to consider might be that the noun adjective is on the rise: I believe noun adjectives are generally used more than, say, a century before.

RegDwight

@Robusto But not the Bavaria earthquake?

Robusto

Although I think "Alaska/Alaskan" could go either way.

If it was in Canada, it would be Canadian.

Cerberus

Not Texan Tornado?

Robusto

But if it was in Manitoba, I think I would call it "the Manitoba earthquake" ...

@Cerberus — No way. That would be over-familiar.

Cerberus

Hmmm...

JSBangs

12:43 PM

interestingly, there is a species of goose which is properly known as the "Canada goose", but which everyone refers to as the "Canadian goose"

suggesting that whatever's going on here, it's able to override the proper nomenclature

at least for geese. no word yet on earthquakes

Cerberus

Hehe.

Yeah I suspect that several complex factors are at work here.

Robusto

If there were an earthquake in Cote d'Ivoire (Ivory Coast) I would call it the Ivory Coast earthquake, though.

Ivory Coastian? Puh-leeze!

RegDwight

@Robusto Ivorian?

JSBangs

i sure as hell wouldn't call it the Ivorian earthquake. but that's just because Ivorian sounds stoooopid

Cerberus

But would you ever use that adjective at all?

JSBangs

12:47 PM

no. never say Ivorian. listening to NPR back when there was that brouhaha over the president of the Ivory Coast was excruciating because all of the announcers insisted on using that eardrum-piercing word

(i'm so glad that peeving isn't off-topic for chat)

4

Robusto

@RegDwight — No wayian.

Cerberus

No it ain't!

I still feel that the noun adjective sounds more modern in general, the true adjective more literary or something.

JSBangs

that may be the case

kiamlaluno

It could be more modern, but you don't say "Italy food."

Robusto

@JSBangs — If peeving were off-topic for chat, this place would dry up and blow away.

JSBangs

12:51 PM

ah, but that's a different matter. Italy food isn't just located in Italy, but is actually Italian in origin and ethnicity

whereas the Japan earthquake is not of Japanese descent

i think that for food, clothing, language, etc. there is close to 100% preference for the adjective form

Cerberus

True.

Robusto

Here's another fun example: "The Japanese earthquake came close to causing a nuclear event that could have brought about the China syndrome."

China Syndrome

The China Syndrome is a term that describes a fictitious result of a severe nuclear meltdown in which molten reactor core components penetrate their containment vessel and building. However the term is misleading, since molten material from such an event could not melt through the crust of the Earth and reach China. History and usage Nuclear power plants ordered during the late 1960s raised safety questions and created fears that a severe reactor accident could release large quantities of radioactive material into the environment. In the early 1970s, a controversy arose regarding the ...

Cerberus

Yeah a famous myth.

Robusto

But note that I said "Japanese earthquake" but "China syndrome" ...

Cerberus

I do think the fact than Chinese is longer might be a factor.

Noted!

Robusto

12:53 PM

@Cerberus — No, that's not it at all.

Cerberus

But the China Syndrome is already a fixed phrase.

No, why not?

JSBangs

i think there is a hierarchy of factors, some morphological, some semantic, some phonetic.

Cerberus

Agreed.

JSBangs

for places ending in common toponymic suffixes such as -ia, there is a strong preference to always use the adjective -ian

Cerberus

These factors might exist in some tree-like model, or they might be cumulative...

JSBangs

12:54 PM

for states, there is a preference to use the bare state name--even in when this conflicts with the preceding rule

Cerberus

By state you mean country?

JSBangs

for foreign countries, there is a milder preference to use the bare name, except in the -ia case

for state i mean US state, as discussed above

Cerberus

Right.

JSBangs

sorry for my americo-centric perspective :)

Cerberus

Hehe.

(Quick question, which is better: Politico-Philosophical, or Political-Philosophical?)

Politico would be my choice...

Kosmonaut

1:00 PM

Probably if I were writing a paper and wanted to sound smart I would write politicophilosophical.

Cerberus

Really? No hyphen? Interesting.

Kosmonaut

hyphen maybe

I was focused on the morphology.

Cerberus

Hehe.

Kosmonaut

But hyphen would be a style preference.

For example, we have terms like morphosyntactic.

Cerberus

I think socio-economical is standard, isn't it?

Yes, for some reason morphosyntactic looks more "normal" without a hyphen.

Kosmonaut

1:02 PM

Well, there you have two vowels in a row.

Cerberus

True.

But I presume you would not use social-economical?

With or without hyphen.

Kosmonaut

No; socio-economical is established. And I think socio- is itself well-established.

Sociolinguistic

Cerberus

Yes.

Kosmonaut

But using the hyphen is more of an art form in English.

Cerberus

But isn't there a tendency to change the first -al in any al-al compound adjective into -o, if I may phrase it like that?

I know, hyphen use is hard to pin down.

Kosmonaut

1:05 PM

@Cerberus Yes, I think there is a tendency.

Also any al-ic compound adjective.

Cerberus

I am helping a friend with her PhD and we were considering politico-philosophical v. political-philosophical. Both forms exist.

Yeah, perhaps any al-x adjective?

Kosmonaut

Personally, I think politico-philosophical is absolutely PhD-ish :)

Cerberus

Yay!

Then we are agreed.

JSBangs

0

Q: "...and the fire from the stove engulfed him" or "jumped on him" or "covered him" or "devoured him" or what?

Which verb should I use here? He opened the stove and the fire from the stove [engulfed/jumped on/covered/devoured] him. "Help! Help!" - he shouted at once. "I'm on fire!"

word-choice

i vote for move to writers.se

Kosmonaut

Agreed.

kiamlaluno

1:08 PM

I voted it as off-topic.

Kosmonaut

Wow, RegDwight never lets me have any fun.

I couldn't migrate it in time.

Cerberus

Aww.

He can be a meanie.

JSBangs

so did I... can't we get a "belongs on writers.se" sub-option for off-topic posts?

Cerberus

Do we get many of those?

JSBangs

more than anything else

Kosmonaut

1:10 PM

Can people vote to migrate at a certain rep level?

RegDwight

@JSBangs When it gets out of beta, yes.

Cerberus

OK.

Kosmonaut

How is writers.SE doing, getting-out-of-beta-wise?

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut People can pick a site from the "off-topic" list, which can have up to five entries. Ours has just one right now: meta.ELU.

Cerberus

I can't vote to migrate.

Right, meta is there.

RegDwight

1:11 PM

@Kosmonaut Okayish to worrying.

129

Writers – writers.stackexchange.com

Beta Q&A site for authors, editors, reviewers, professional writers, and aspiring writers

Currently in public beta.

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus There isn't such thing like voting to migrate: you can only vote a question as off-topic, and then you could select which site better suits for the question.

Kosmonaut

If writers.SE doesn't make it... where will we send all of this stuff? :)

RegDwight

@JSBangs Previously discussed here:

2

A: Extend the list of SE sites presented when a question is being closed as off-topic.

Writers is still in beta. Migration paths are only added to graduated sites. For example, there was no migration path from StackOverflow to Programmers until the latter went out of beta, even though many, many people wanted to have one right away. See e.g. here and check the top answer by Shog9: ...

@Kosmonaut /dev/null.SE

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus Alternatively, you can flag for moderation attention.

Cerberus

@Kos: Right, that is what I suspected.

JSBangs

1:12 PM

i think that writers will make it... it's been trending upwards since launch

it's just been moving slowly

RegDwight

@JSBangs Thanks to our help!

We have quite a few old questions that could use migration to Writers. Alas, they are too old.

0

Q: Please check the language rules, spelling, and sentence structure; prove my essay

I choose to study geology because I am interested to study about the earth. My father is the inspiration for me to choose this course. He encourages me to get involve in this area because he as geologist has gained valuable experience and know a lot of information about this jobs. At young age, I...

words

JSBangs

so far writers doesn't show any of the signs that have doomed other closed proposals: poor focus, lack of experts, uncontrolled subjectivity

Kosmonaut

The biggest problem is low activity, is that right?

JSBangs

yeah, and that's a problem that takes care of itself with time

at first it was really worrying, with less than 1 Q/day

RegDwight

@JSBangs Except when it doesn't, see Atheism.

JSBangs

1:15 PM

@RegDwight i was never really sure why atheism died

aside from the fact that they pissed God off, of course

RegDwight

@JSBangs I would link to that answer by Robert Cartaino, but it was on meta.Atheism.

Xblast time here, afk!

kiamlaluno

I think that writers.SE can do it. The other site where users can ask those questions is english.SE, but we are migrating questions there, when they better suit there.

Kosmonaut

Atheism died, but it lives on in spirit.

7

Cerberus

To be honest, I just didn't get what people would want to discuss about atheism. They all believed it anyway. I have posted a few answers there but I drifted off too.

@Kos: Starred and vice-thwacked.

kiamlaluno

It's quiet different with drupal.SE, as users who already ask questions on SO keep to ask them there, even if they are questions about Drupal.

JSBangs

1:18 PM

@Cerberus i have a somewhat similar problem with skeptics.se, which doesn't seem to have any core group of "experts" that can contribute to it. so far it mostly seems like a wikified snopes.com

Cerberus

Hmm lemme see...

Yes, I see a similar problem I think.

It's just a bunch of like-minded people huddling together, their shared culture being "no".

Denying something doesn't seem to be the kind of subject that will generate much content. But perhaps I am wrong.

Greetings, Great Mushroom.

JSBangs

gah! must ignore chat and go back to work...

Cerberus

Good luck...

kiamlaluno

Gah! I must ignore work and go back to chat.

;-)

Cerberus

How excruciating!

Robusto

1:24 PM

Work keeps interfering with my fun.

Kosmonaut

GAH

@Matt Ellen: Your question was just deleted as I was inches away from finishing my answer

english.stackexchange.com/questions/18302/…

Cerberus

Can't see it!

Kosmonaut

It was about why idea and identity are pronounced with an [ɑɪ] at the beginning.

Robusto

Also isobar, island, ivory, and any number of others.

Kosmonaut

I was going to explain the transition of the "i" vowel from [i:] to [ɑɪ].

Robusto

1:32 PM

And, for some, Italian. :)

Kosmonaut

Iran and Iraq

For some

Gah. My answer even had a chart.

Cerberus

Aww...

Shall I ask it again?

Kosmonaut

I would have to rewrite it anyway.

Cerberus

Oh you didn't save it...

Why was it deleted anyway?

Duplicate?

Kosmonaut

Someone made a comment that pointed out several other words like it, then the author lost his nerve and deleted it.

Cerberus

1:36 PM

Oh! I see.

Stupet.

Kosmonaut

Oh well.

Cerberus

Do we have questions on the vowels shifts anyway?

Kosmonaut

We have a general one on the Great Vowel Shift.

This answer would have tracked "i" specifically and in more detail.

Cerberus

I believe the i>ai shift is part of the Great one?

Kosmonaut

Yes, it is.

Cerberus

1:40 PM

Or is it i<ai... yes that is it, right?

Kosmonaut

I would have written i: -> ɑɪ :)

Cerberus

Right!

The < and > symbols kinda suck in linguistics because they have some overlap and some contradiction with the mathematical symbols.

And, more importantly, they operate contrary to arrows if you write just >, am I right?

Kosmonaut

The shorthand you are talking about is pretty much used in dictionaries and stuff, and I avoid it because it is confusing.

Cerberus

Good!

I suppose you can't go wrong with -> ?

I still see < 90% of the time, alas.

At least people never(?) write such phonological changes counter-chronologically, so that it basically doesn't matter which symbol they use.

Or do they...

No, they do!

That's it.

That's why it can often be confusing.

Sometimes they first note the form they want to talk about, then add its origin as an afterthought.

Kosmonaut

When space is not an issue, better to just use something more explicit.

kiamlaluno

1:46 PM

@Robusto It is, when you mean "Hai!-talians."

Cerberus

Agreed. And space shouldn't be much of an issue any more with digital texts.

kiamlaluno

2:03 PM

Whoops! I wrote drupal.english.stackexchange.com, instead of meta.drupal.stackexchange.com; I guess I was trying to merge the sites.

Robusto

2:35 PM

@kiamlaluno — I never mean that. Not ever.

kiamlaluno

@Robusto I know you didn't mean that. I was just making a "play on words" with "Ah, Italians!"

F'x

3:17 PM

0

Q: Is the term "Move Over" an official English Idiom? And if so is it only American English?

Is the tern "Move Over" is an official English Idiom known worldwide?, I would like to know: Is it an Official English Idiom (not slang or colloquial)? Is it known outside of the US (e.g. in the UK, Australia, India etc)? Does it have any multiple meanings? Does it have any ambiguousness? How l...

idioms american-english slang

that one is quite funny

MrHen

Yeah... I don't understand the obsession with "official English"

Is that an ESL thing?

JSBangs

it's a reasonable question if you're going for formal writing

MrHen

Then ask, "Can I use 'move over' in formal writing?"

JSBangs

though non-native speakers tend to overestimate how much precision there is in specifying standard vs. non-standard usage

@MrHen yeah, good point. there's no list of "official English idioms" to check

MrHen

@JSBangs I wonder how close "official idiom" is to being an oxymoron...

Kosmonaut

3:24 PM

Even many native speakers think there is an "actual" English out there.

3

MrHen

I guess I haven't looked up the strict definition of the term in a while.

@Kosmonaut They are taught matter-of-factly by their teachers. It makes sense that the teachers are getting their answers from somewhere.

kiamlaluno

(I guess the OP didn't hear the song "Move over.")

Kosmonaut

@MrHen Yes, they get them arbitrarily. Sometimes reflecting usage, sometimes not.

kiamlaluno

@MrHen English is not my first language, but I have never asked about "official" English.

MrHen

@Kosmonaut Learning that is akin to discovering Santa is a myth. "What?! They were just picking stuff arbitrarily?"

@kiamlaluno A better way to word the question: "Are people who learn ESL more likely to ask about an official English?"

kiamlaluno

3:30 PM

I would not even ask about official Italian.

0

Q: Why is this show called Singapore Idol, not Singaporean Idol?

In other cases, a [country] Idol show titles use the demonym: American Idol, Malaysian Idol or Indonesian Idol. Why is this show called Singapore Idol, not Singaporean Idol?