English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

If you cannot accept that perhaps certain things could be improved in your country...and I wasn't even talking about your country: I don't know where they use those measurements, probably in lots of countries.

tchrist

Cooks get by just fine without your silly electronic gizmos.

And always have.

Cerberus

And the Romans got by just fine without helicopters.

ducks

tchrist

Non sequitur.

Cerberus

4:07 AM

Your scientists too are switching to the metric system.

tchrist

That is false.

Our scientists switched generations ago.

So?

Cerberus

So certain new systems can be more efficient than old systems that everybody used to use.

tchrist

Our Catholic priests present the Mass here in English. Doesn’t mean that Papal Bulls aren’t in Latin any longer.

See how that works?

Cerberus

Cups and spoons are great for eyeballing those quantities. For smaller or larger quantities, however, or when greater precision is required, scales win.

tchrist

It’s called “When in Rome. . . .” When you are doing science, you use metric. When you are not doing science, but just doing regular day-to-day life, nobody uses it.

This does not bother us.

Cerberus

4:12 AM

@tchrist Do you want me to say "that doesn't follow" here, or "non sequitur"?

tchrist

And fluid measurement is not eyeballing.

Cerberus

I said it was great for eyeballing.

I didn't say it was eyeballing.

tchrist

If I have 1.0235492 cups instead of 1.000000 cup, it better not fucking matter.

Cerberus

Exactly. When it doesn't matter, the quickest way is to just take a spoon.

tchrist

Real cooking is not an exact science with 6 decimal places of precision.

Cerberus

4:13 AM

If you have to measure it precisely, scales are quicker and more accurate.

tchrist

We have complete spoon sets you know.

They are much more rational.

Cerberus

If you need larger or smaller quantities than either a spoon or a cup, scales win too.

If you don't want any washing up, scales win as well.

tchrist

But we do not have "a spoon".

Cerberus

Still too slow.

Meanwhile, my meringues are getting there.

tchrist

We have ⅛ tsp, ¼ tsp, ⅓ tsp, ½ tsp, 1 tsp. Repeat for tablespoons. As you see, it is a much more rational system.

Cerberus

4:15 AM

Still soft on the inside, though.

tchrist

Because it uses nice rational numbers.

Recipes call for measurements using those measures.

It isn’t just grabbing a mixing spoon and heaving a bunch of crap into a bowl without being careful about what you are doing the way you would make it out to be.

Cerberus

I would hate to have to get butter into a spoon, try to brush off the excess, get it out of the spoon into the bowl, then clean it.

tchrist

Why would you put butter in a measuring spoon?

Cerberus

I know perfectly well how measuring cups and spoons work. As I said, I have worked with them.

tchrist

Our sticks of butter are marked off in tablespoon-size quantities.

It is marked right on the package.

You just cut the square tablespoon on the line.

Cerberus

4:17 AM

We have marks too.

tchrist

So why are you "dirtying" a spoon?

Cerberus

But cutting it off at the right distance and at the right angle is not very easy, so you could easily be 20 % off.

So, yes, for eyeballing, you don't need scales, of course.

tchrist

Is isn’t very easy?

I disbelieve the 20% figure.

Cerberus

It is easy if you don't need precision.

tchrist

You never need your electronic precision. That isn’t cooking. That’s chemistry.

Cerberus

4:19 AM

And I don't use scales when I don't need precision.

tchrist

All your exact measurements are just so much uselessness given that they would not work for me.

I cannot use your measurements at my elevation, you realize.

Cerberus

But then I would just use a regular spoon and pour the milk right out of the bottle.

tchrist

So if you need 6 decimal places of accuracy, you had better get yourself a very expensive pressure cooker.

Cerberus

Well, this conversation isn't getting anywhere.

tchrist

That would be really wasteful.

Cerberus

4:21 AM

Why don't you try a scale sometime.

tchrist

That’s because you are convinced that there is something wrong with us.

Cerberus

Because I have used both.

tchrist

And I won’t put up with it.

Cerberus

And all new recipes use scales.

tchrist

Wrong.

So very very wrong.

Cerberus

4:21 AM

Here.

tchrist

Do I really have to mail you cookbooks now?

That isn’t all now isn’t it?

So you do not mean all.

You mean your recipes do.

Ours use what people know how to use.

Without requiring expensive electronic equipment that no cook has in her house.

Unless she is a drug dealer.

Cerberus

€ 15.

Everybody used simple household equipment, obviously, because that's what was available. Now the move to scales has begun.

Shit, half of my meringues fell off.

They were tossed about the oven.

How could this happen?

You did it!

You waves your magic measuring spoon at them.

How rude.

Noah

4:43 AM

Hi

@Cerberus You waves?

You can make some more.

Cerberus

Hello.

I waves.

I eated the broken meringues.

cornbread ninja

so uh

Noah

No big deal, you are a chef anyway.

cornbread ninja

Want to read my copy?

Cerberus

Indeed!

cornbread ninja

4:46 AM

:D

Noah

Copy of what?

Cerberus

Show it to us!

cornbread ninja

ok

Fine dining for two: $5.99
Seafood meets diner in your own kitchen.

Fresh and woodsy wild salmon burgers from Whole Foods are ready in less than 10 minutes. Luxury has never been so affordable or delicious. Find your treasure in the butcher’s case in vacuum-packs of 2.

Cerberus

Sounds attractive!

Now I'm hungry.

cornbread ninja

They were tasty.

Cerberus

4:51 AM

I can haz salmon burger?

cornbread ninja

Of course. Or, you could treat a friend for $5.99.

ach, bedtime

Cerberus

Yay!

Oh.

Good night!

cornbread ninja

the bed partner is nude!

good night to you.

Cerberus

I'm going in a minute too.

Oh!

Sounds like fun!

Have it!

MετάEd

Eh. Sounds like nude. Fun is context dependent.

Cerberus

4:53 AM

What?

Is nude no fun for you?

MετάEd

It depends.

user19161

Who is nude?

MετάEd

The bed partner.

Cerberus

Cornbread's bed partner.

user19161

TMI!

Cerberus

4:55 AM

It was not about herself...

And it was sort of funny.

user19161

Over and out!

Noah

@WillHunting You were. When you were born.

Basically, nobody is born with their cloths on.

Noah

5:18 AM

@Cerberus Then who was it about?

Cerberus

About her bed partner.

Speaking of which, it's bed time!

Adios!

Noah

Toodle-oo

The same for me.

Bye.

Night.

Cerberus

Bye!

David Wallace

6:09 AM

@tchrist I do NOT have to use the units program. I am quite capable of multiplying and dividing without software.

@Cerberus and the number thou countest to shall be three.

@cornbreadninja Lik your what?

Matt Эллен

11:06 AM

good morning

David Wallace

Oh goodness, so it is. I'd better go to bed then.

Matt Эллен

sleep well!

David Wallace

Good night.

David Wallace

11:26 AM

Or not, as the case may be. You still here, @Matt?

Matt Эллен

hello

s'alright

I'm not sure about these question I've voted to close as GR

David Wallace

That's why it takes five people to close a question.

Matt Эллен

they seem to be strictly GR, but maybe there's something interesting that could be said about the definitions

David Wallace

What you have done only has any effect if four others agree.

Matt Эллен

true

David Wallace

11:31 AM

Besides, isn't it possible to retract your vote if you're really not sure?

Matt Эллен

not close votes. no

unless something's changed recently....

David Wallace

Hmm, I'd call that a bug.

Matt Эллен

it's been discussed a lot on [MSO]

David Wallace

Hah! I almost never go there.

Matt Эллен

hmmm, that should expand

oh well, you get what I mean

David Wallace

11:33 AM

I was staring at that and wondering whether it was supposed to.

Hey, is "sleep like a top" a regionalism?

Matt Эллен

certainly not something I recognise

what sort of top? a spinning top?

David Wallace

No, nor I. But it's well documented in a number of UK English dictionaries.

Matt Эллен

oh!

David Wallace

Someone asked a question about it on another site. I said they had probably misheard "sleep like a log"; but it turns out I was wrong.

This other site doesn't let me delete my posts.

So, for once, I shall have to let MYSELF be wrong on the Internet.

Matt Эллен

OMG

David Wallace

11:36 AM

I know. Unprecedented, right?

Matt Эллен

> A top sleeps when it moves with such velocity, and spins so smoothly, that its motion is imperceptible.

— 1854 A. E. Baker Gloss. Northamptonshire Words II. 245

David Wallace

Right. I think I read that "sleep like a top" dates from 1693.

Matt Эллен

indeed

David Wallace

So, today we've both learnt something.

Matt Эллен

yes, how excellent!

David Wallace

11:39 AM

And for me, the day is only 39 minutes old. If I can go on learning things at the same rate, who knows how smart I will be in 24 hours!

Matt Эллен

such an exponential rate. perhaps you'll be able to outsmart yourself

David Wallace

How do you feel now that NanoWriteMe (or whatever it's called) is all over?

Matt Эллен

Well, I don't think anyone's read my collection of words yet, so I'm enjoying the fact that I've achieved the feat.

David Wallace

Is your collection of words accessible?

Matt Эллен

it's here (pdf)

there is a text version, but it's very slightly different

David Wallace

11:45 AM

I might read that on the train to and from work, for as many days as it takes.

Matt Эллен

Thank you!

David Wallace

I am somewhat in awe, to be honest.

user19161

@MattЭллен I just answered the two questions you commented on. =)

user19161

Over and out!

Matt Эллен

@DavidWallace Well, I don't have a better half, or children, and I could take every Friday off work, so the only real obstacle was finding the words. I recommend it, if you've got time, just to see what it's like

@WillHunting I saw. I up voted the several one.

David Wallace

11:49 AM

I started working on a technical book a little over a year ago now. I kind of stopped six months or so ago, when something distracted me. I have written about 170 pages, but I need to find the motivation to start again. I may be able to take inspiration from the fact that you have managed to write so much, so quickly; even though it's a completely different sort of writing.

Matt Эллен

170 pages! you've probably already surpassed me count then :D

David Wallace

I'm not sure. I don't think word counts are quite accurate for technical stuff, because there's more in it than words.

But for the length of time I've been working on it, it's not really good enough.

And lately, I have had SO MUCH time on my hands, and I can't bring myself to do anything useful with it. I have become sloth incarnate.

Matt Эллен

I know how you feel. That's why I relished NaNoWriMo, because it focused me, and I had a community to do it with.

David Wallace

I got into the habit of completely wasting enormous amounts of my time recently. Now it is time for me to form a new habit, I think.

Matt Эллен

good plan. I am gong to try and stop wasting my time too. I spend so much of it doing nothing

David Wallace

11:56 AM

Do you live alone?

Matt Эллен

yes

David Wallace

Do you find that as demotivating as I do?

Matt Эллен

I'm not sure. I felt quite demotivated when I was living with someone. But I think the demotivation was spawned by loneliness, long before that relationship broke down, or even started

David Wallace

When I was in my 20s, I enjoyed living alone. Not so now.

Matt Эллен

I enjoyed living with people in my 20s. I'm a bit selfish these days, I'm not sure how I'd cope with flatmates

David Wallace

12:03 PM

Flatmates are just awful.

Usually.

I can count the number of good ones I've had on the fingers of one thumb.

Matt Эллен

it was fine at uni. we were all the same and all good friends

finding people to live with now is difficult, because my friends are nowhere near by.

David Wallace

Hmm, no I don't think I want flatmates. That would make everything even worse for me, I think.

Thanks, @Matt, I think I really do need to try to sleep now.

Good night.

Matt Эллен

no problem :)

sleep well!

Matt Эллен

12:28 PM

good day to thee @KitFox how was the weekend?

user19161

12:40 PM

@MattЭллен Good good. You should do so for the other one too. =)

user19161

@MattЭллен How was your weekend?

user19161

Did I just kill chat again?

KitFox

@MattЭллен It was fun, but a lot of driving.

Matt Эллен

1:00 PM

@WillHunting I edited the book, then I relaxed. how was yours?

user19161

@MattЭллен Same. I have been working on my Math account though instead of ELU.

user19161

@KitFox Hmm, driving is not fun.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox Where did you get to?

@WillHunting same as last weekend or same as me?

user19161

@MattЭллен Same as always, not same as you!

Robusto

Holla.

Matt Эллен

1:04 PM

Hello @Robusto

user19161

@Robusto Boo!

Robusto

What up, peoples?

user19161

Happy December everyone!

Matt Эллен

Reg shot down a Nortonn S puppet in the early hours. it's been quiet since then

user19161

Haha Robusto and Barrie just answered the same question!

Robusto

1:07 PM

It's happened before. Why should he feed on all the dumb questions?

Jez

@tchrist Needs a couple of additions. Whore - a fucking woman. Hoar - a silvery fucking coating.

KitFox

@MattЭллен I went to visit my brother and his family.

@MattЭллен You edited your whole book in a weekend?

Matt Эллен

@KitFox yeah. I mean, I took out the typos and fixed some of the wording. I haven'y given it an overhaul

@KitFox nice :)

RegDwighт

1:25 PM

@WillHunting the same question by Nortonn, no less.

Robusto

@RegDwighт Oh, is that a Nortonn sock puppet?

RegDwighт

Was. Now it's just Nortonn.

Robusto

Well, what do you know.

Did you see my question to you about flies, honey, vinegar?

RegDwighт

Well, it had all the hallmarks of a Nortonn question — including the answer by Barrie.

@Robusto oh right.

I was going to research something about it, but now I don't even remember what.

Got distracted.

But in short, yeah, it's not an idiom in German.

Robusto

But would it be understandable as given, normally?

RegDwighт

1:37 PM

And as an answerer (or a commenter) pointed out, you actually catch more flies with vinegar, so perhaps the Germans you were talking too were way too well-educated.

Robusto

You can catch flies with red-wine vinegar, but not white vinegar.

Matt Эллен

You atrakt mor fleiz viz red vine vinegar zan honnie

RegDwighт

@Robusto Alas, you should have specified the vinegar variety, then. Them was Germans. They are very precise.

Robusto

They are literally precise.

Or precisely literal.

RegDwighт

Actually I have no idea where that myth comes from.

All Germans I know are exceptionally unreliable.

They can't even read the watch.

Robusto

1:40 PM

You weren't in banking, I take it.

user19161

@RegDwighт Hahaha, I was about to answer it too but there were two already.

RegDwighт

@Robusto I have a couple former classmates who are.

I also used to be a customer at a dozen German banks at once.

Not exaggerating.

Robusto

Usually nobody visits that many banks except bank robbers.

RegDwighт

I only visited one at a time. Just like bank robbers.

Robusto

You mean with a gun and a ski mask?

RegDwighт

1:42 PM

Except, of course, at the end they robbed me.

Matt Эллен

imagines multiple universes Reg talking to himself in all banks at once

Robusto

I often wonder if banks in Alaska and upper Canada have a problem with customers. You have ten people in the bank and they're all wearing ski masks ...

RegDwighт

"What's robbing a bank compared to founding a bank?" Brecht, Dreigroschenoper

Matt Эллен

That from a man who encourages women to pull children apart

RegDwighт

To be fair, they absolutely have to be encouraged. They won't do it by themselves.

Robusto

1:46 PM

@RegDwighт Unless they're Alexander the Great's mom.

RegDwighт

Yeah. Which is like zero of them.

Last I heard he only had one mother, and this just in: she's dead.

Robusto

You don't say.

RegDwighт

I know, I know. Should have told you to sit.

Robusto

I'm so glad we have someone so knowledgeable in chat.

RegDwighт

That's why they call you the gladiator.

Robusto

1:48 PM

0

Q: Where can I get experts to review a personal statement?

First of all, I don't know if this is the right place to ask this but I took the chance anyway. I'm currently applying for a graduate course and I've been asked to submit a personal statement. Where can my I upload my personal statement for constructive criticisms and grammatical corrections? Tha...

To be terminated with extreme prejudice.

Matt Эллен

careers advice centre

RegDwighт

Not here. So we also can't tell where.

tchrist

2:08 PM

@Cerberus Do you have a reference to scribal abbreviations that includes something that means “-us” but looks rather like a superscript 9, as in Aſſcanius here below:

That is in a printed typeface that tries to preserve the scribal abbreviations.

Robusto

Commute.

tchrist

> As it was thought desirable also to preserve the character of the writing as nearly as letter-type would admit, the abbreviations have been preserved throughout, but they are few in number, and present no particular difficulty¹.

So that weird superscript-9–looking thing is included in the list of abbreviations. Funny he lists it next to the u, since the u seems to be skipped.

And I think the one that adorns the thorn combines to stand in for “this”.

vehitha

Dear Community members,

tchrist

Found it.

So it can be -us, -os, or -s.

Matt Эллен

Asscanious

tchrist

2:22 PM

In Aſſcanius it was -us.

I think the Latin would have -u- not -o-.

Matt Эллен

TIL

Ascanius

: Ascanius is a legendary king of Alba Longa and is the son of the Trojan hero Aeneas. He is a character of Roman mythology, and has a divine lineage, being the son of Aeneas, who is son of Venus and the hero Anchises, a relative of Priam; thus Ascanius has divine ascendents by both parents, being descendant of Jupiter, Juno and Dardanus. He is also legendarily an ancestor of Romulus, Remus and the Gens Julia. Together with his father, he is a major character in the Aeneid, and he is depicted as one of founders of the Roman race. Mythology In Greek and Roman mythology, Ascanius was the...

tchrist

Ahah!

I wonder why Laȝamon doubled the s.

So Google can now scan long-s. However, they cannot scan anything else. This is their scan of the page whose picture I provided above:

Vnder-jetene weren be binges.
pat beo wimon was mid childe.
pa sende  Asscani9 i
be wes lauerd & dux.
after heom jend pat lond i
be cuben dweomerlakes song.
wite he wolde i
purh pa wiber-craftes.
wat being hit were i
go ^ beo wiino hesde on wombe.

But near as I can tell, it should be more like this:

Vnder-ȝetene weren þe þinges.
þat þeo wimon waſ mid childe.
Þa ſende Aſſcaniˢ :
þe wes lauerd & dux.
after heom ȝend þat lond :
þe cuben dweomerlakes ſong.
witē he wolde :
þurh þa wiþer-craftes.
wat þing hit were :
ꝥ þeo wimō heſde on wombe.

So the only thing they now handle is long-s. Everything else is mutilated.

Not really very useful. Certainly useless for searching texts.

For the record, here was the provided translation from ME:

The things were discovered,
that the 'woman [maid] was with child.
Then sent 'Ascanius [he]
' who was lewd and duke ',
over [all] the land,
after 'them who knew songs of magic art [witty and wise persons] ;
'he [for Ascanius] would learn,
through 'the evil (their wise] crafts,
what thing it were
that the woman had in her womb [bare].

I was researching dweomerlakes.

Matt Эллен

I see

tchrist

They have the entire scan for free of Sir Frederick Madden’s translation of Laȝamon’s Brut. But it is the worst OCR you have ever seen.

Where they means Google.

This was related to this answer:

6

A: Where were "should", "shall", and "must" in the 18th Century?

This was a problem with Google's optical character recognition (OCR) mistaking the long s (ſ) as an f. However, Google has since improved their OCR: When we generated the original Ngram Viewer corpora in 2009, our OCR wasn't as good as it is today. This was especially obvious in pre-19th cen...

Hugo has learned that they have corrected the bad long-s scans. And I have learned that they have corrected nothing else.

There were the two OED citations from Laȝamon’s Brut for dweomerlake (given under the demerlayk entry):

 C. 1205 Lay. 270 ― Þa sende Asscanius··After heom ȝend þat lond, Þe cuþen dweomerlakes song.
 C. 1205 Lay. 11326 ― Tuhten to dæðe mid drenche oðer mid dweomerlace oðer mid steles bite.

RegDwighт

2:39 PM

0

Q: Can supposed to be used as Considered to?

I have a doubt regarding expression like these: 1: The new Al Pacino movie is supposed to be a good movie. 2: Asians are not supposed to be good ball players. 3: Whale is supposed to be the smartest planet on earth. So are they both similar or whether supposed to and considered two have diffe...

word-usage

> Whale is supposed to be the smartest planet on earth.

I wonder who would suppose that and why.

Matt Эллен

lol

tchrist

The only modern use is when Éowyn says to the Witch-king: ‘Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion!’

@RegDwighт Sunday is a long day this week.

Matt Эллен

mmmm pasta room

RegDwighт

Sunday is a long week this week.

It started Thursday.

Eternal Thursday. shudders

Exhibit B:

0

Q: Can "and" be omitted in the sentence like this?

I saw the sentence like " They climbed on the log asked it what to do." I think that "and" is omitted in this sentence like " They climed on the log and asked it what to do." I want to know in which case we can omit "and" in the sentence. Please, give me the answer.

grammar

tchrist

The obvious answer is locative.

Matt Эллен

2:47 PM

0

Q: When the phrase "past a room" is used?

we climbed up the steps and walked past a room with a luxurious king-sized bed. I know the meaning of past here is one side of the other But the question is why here the phrase "past a room" is suitable instead of "one side of the other room"? How "Past a room" significantly adds a value to...