English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

12:53 AM

@Mitch What organisation, exactly?

I praesume the army hates his personal interference with their plans and tactics.

Mitch

1:42 AM

@Cerberus whatever weird mixed chain of command he is creating

Nameless

I've read this thread on subject-aux inversion: english.stackexchange.com/questions/341696/… . I do not find the sentence provided by the OP to be unnatural, "Only when the rule can have some meaningful effect it is to be applied." On the contrary, inverting it to is it to be applied is unnatural to me. This is because I find the clause modified by only to be rather lengthy and thus unemphatic like to be inverted.

The comment on the only answer says that subject-aux doesn't happen when only works as a conjunction. Problem is, I've never seen only classified as a conjunction before...

It is to my understanding that, in the OP's sentence, only works as a adverb that modifies the when-clause.

That's all I've got to say :)

tchrist

2:03 AM

@Nameless That has to be: Only when the rule can have some meaningful effect is it to be applied. It just sounds wrong otherwise.

@Nameless Yes, that's right.

Try reducing the when clause and see whether that doesn't make this easier to "hear" as natural.

> 1. Only [then] is it to be applied.
2. Only [then] ?it is to be applied.

Nameless

Alright, thank you.

tchrist

You're welcome. After long enough, you just develop a feeling for when inversion sounds better.

I often try to explain this to people learning Spanish, too. Inversion is quite common there, especially with certain kinds of verbs or clauses. But I never remember any particular "rule" to tell them, just that it sounds more natural with inversion.

And Portuguese has a million triggers for whether to put the clitic pronoun before the verb or after it. (Or even in the middle, sometimes!) If you get it wrong, it just doesn't sound right to a native speaker.

That, or you sound like you're from the "other" side of the Atlantic instead. :)

Nameless

2:44 AM

Don't get it.

tchrist

@Nameless If an elephant sits on your fence, he'll break your fence.

Elephant-proof fences can cost up to $12,000 per kilometer, a tall order for subsistence farmers. The secret to co-existing with elephants, however, isn't necessarily to think big. Rather than using high walls or high voltage to keep elephants away from crops, one of the most buzzworthy ideas relies on an insect about the size of a paper clip.

Nameless

3:00 AM

Oh, I thought there was more to it.

Vikas

@CowperKettle new car registrations dropped 18 percent you mean diesel/petrol cars decreased?

tchrist

3:16 AM

I wonder how long they'll let him get away with ruining Russia.

Nameless

If he gets away with it, I think that Russia may become a new superpower.

Cerberus

How?

Nameless

Russia will not longer depend on the West.

Granting it more freedom.

And thus power

Cerberus

@Nameless Only the inverted version sounds good to me.

Conjunction: this is very informal usage, where it is used for but.

> I called her, only she wasn't there.

This is probably an unnatural example.

But something like that.

Vikas

4:55 AM

> Unfortunately, it is true that – statistically, at least – the USA is far from the safest country in the world. If we take a look at the Global Peace Index of 2019, which measures the peacefulness and general safety of 163 nations across the globe, the United States ranks 128th.

It is very close to India.

I thought USA is far safer than India.

I think different states have different statistics.

And I'm even more surprised to see Russia is among the most least peaceful countries.

Vikas

10:09 AM

🤔

#Worldle #116 5/6 (100%)
🟩⬜⬜⬜⬜➡️
🟩🟩🟩🟩⬜↘️
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟨↙️
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟨↘️
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🎉
https://worldle.teuteuf.fr

Wordle 332 X/6

⬜⬜🟩🟨⬜
⬜⬜🟩⬜🟨
⬜🟩🟩⬜⬜
⬜🟩🟩⬜⬜
⬜🟩🟩⬜⬜
⬜🟩🟩🟩⬜

Too difficult today, only until I saw the right answer.

Faheem Mitha

11:04 AM

@CowperKettle Is that the title of an article?

Vikas

> The quick acceptance of fleeing Ukrainians puts a spotlight on Europe’s “double standard” for refugees, given its rejection of people fleeing violence in Africa, the Middle East and elsewhere, the head of the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies says.

> Turkey accuses Sweden and Finland of sheltering people it says are linked to groups it deems terrorists, namely the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) militant group and followers of Fethullah Gulen, whom Ankara accuses of orchestrating the 2016 coup attempt against President Erdogan and his government.

Is this true?

Or rather, how true is it?

jlliagre

11:22 AM

#Worldle #116 2/6 (100%)
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟨↘️
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🎉
https://worldle.teuteuf.fr

Wordle 332 5/6

⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜🟩🟩⬜
⬜⬜🟩🟩⬜
🟩🟩⬜⬜⬜
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

jlliagre

11:33 AM

Wordle (ES) #131 4/6

⬜🟨⬜⬜🟨
🟨⬜⬜🟨🟨
🟨🟨🟨⬜⬜
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

https://wordle.danielfrg.com/

Faheem Mitha

@CowperKettle Oh. Once upon the time that was also the title of a book.

Mitch

1:07 PM

@CowperKettle define 'understanding' and you'll -start- on your way to an answer.

to save you some time, the answer is 'no'

You might get an AI to respond with 'ha ha' but that's because it recognizes that it is in the form of a joke and that a response that comes often after a joke is some kind of laughter.

You might even get an AI to either figure out the punch line or even come up with good puns. But currently the tech doesn't involve any 'understanding'.

@Vikas (It's very true that Turkey is accusing other countries of not treating the PKK the way Turkey wants the PKK treated (as a terrorist group) and also anybody they say is linked with the PKK.

I'm not sure what the state of labeling is by those outside of Turkey of the PKK and, separately, those associated.

Vikas

@Mitch I mean yes it's true Turkey is accusing. But how true is that accusation? What's Finland/Sweden's perspective on this?

@Mitch Ok

Mitch

I'm fairly certain there is a case to be made that the PKK is legitimately fighting to stop oppression of Kurd (but I don't know their methods...maybe they are harning the public? I don't know)

And Gulen ... argh... can't remember and I fear Wikipedia will be biased in many ways... but my vague memory is that Gulen -is- Kurdish (not exactly a crime right), and I think supports autonomy for Kurds (I'm guessing) but I don't think he and his organization materially supports the PKK.

What I'm saying is that my vague memory is that Turkey's claims are not founded on facts and events that every one knows about (but maybe there is some bank account somewhere that someone wired money to etc etc etc and some PKK member used that money, but the international news doesn't know about it).

@Vikas I think at the time of the coup attempt and then Erdogan's purges of the government system in response, Gulen was already out of the country (by choice or exiled I can't remember). Also it would be unlikely that a coup attempt was mainly by Kurdish supporters in the Turkish government (or was it a military coup?).

Vikas

1:26 PM

@Mitch Maybe.

Mitch

@Vikas wikipedia says that Turkey wants Gulen extradicted from the US but the US isn't doing it.

Fethullah Gülen

Muhammed Fethullah Gülen (born 27 April 1941) is a Turkish Islamic scholar, preacher, and a one-time opinion leader, as de facto leader of the Gülen movement. Gülen is designated an influential neo-Ottomanist, Anatolian panethnicist, Islamic poet, writer, social critic, and activist–dissident developing a Nursian theological perspective that embraces democratic modernity, as a citizen of Turkey (until his denaturalization by the government in 2017) he was a local state imam from 1959 to 1981. Over the years, Gülen became a centrist political figure in Turkey prior to his being there as a fugitive...

Fethullah Gülen

Fethullah Gülen veya doğum ismiyle Fetullah Gülen (d. 27 Nisan 1941; Pasinler), Gülen Hareketi lideri olan Türk vaiz, yazar ve eski imamdır. 2016'da kapatılan Gazeteciler ve Yazarlar Vakfının kurucularından biri ve vakfın onursal başkanıydı. 28 Şubat sürecinde, dönemin Ankara Emniyet Müdürlüğü; Gülen ve örgütlenmesi hakkında bir rapor hazırladı. Rapora göre, Gülen bir örgütün lideriydi ve liderlik ettiği örgütün mensupları Türk emniyet birimlerine sızmaktaydı. Emniyet Genel Müdürlüğü bu raporu aldıktan 3 gün sonra, 21 Mart 1999'da; sağlık problemlerini sebep gösteren Gülen, Amerika Birleşik...

Vikas

Oh well.

I didn't know about 2016 coup attempt.

Mitch

> On July 15, 2016 , it was alleged that he attempted a coup attempt to overthrow the government of the Republic of Turkey against the morning of July 16, 2016, with an order from Pennsylvania to his followers within the Turkish Armed Forces .

That's translated from the Turkish wikipedia

Vikas

Serious allegations.

Mitch

Given all the other stuff in both articles, it seems really unlikely that Gulen would have any ability to orchestrate such a thing.

Sure, it's possible, but it just seems unlikely.

@Vikas I do remember that at the time, that Turkey accused Gulen of being the one who communicated his wishes to the military leaders to start the coup.

But the US and European governments and press didn't seem to believe that.

Ohhhh... this is all about Ukraine and Russia and joining NATO right?

Everyone is holding a little hostage to get what they want.

Vikas

1:42 PM

But does this coup issue has anything to do with Turkey opposing Sweden/Finland from joining NATO?

@Mitch Yes.

Mitch

@Robusto Wait wait wait... that 'undoing' involved the loss of 50 million people.

back to not relaxing

@Vikas I think it is what I said, a bargaining chip, like a hostage or a tit-for-tat, you do this for me and I'll give you what you want.

Or could be...I haven't read the latest nes so I don't know if Turkey is actually proposing 'give us PKK members in your country, and we'll let Sweden and Finland join NATO' (Turkey has a veto for membership I'm guessing in the NATO leadership)

@Robusto oops, 50M for all of WWII, benefit of the doubt Hitler really only responsible for ... 20M(?) in Europe.

So OK I can go back to relaxing.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…