English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

12:01 AM

@MattE.Эллен I haven't seen -any- of the neo-pronouns in anybody's list. They're like a theoretical solution that just ignores how people work.

like, as @tchrist has hinted, I find it unlikely that Spanish speakers will adopt 'latinx' ever. only anglos do it because they don't care how it sounds because it doesn't apply to them.

tchrist

@Mitch The majority of them actually find that term offensive.

Just read that today.

The English word lynx would be unpronounceable in Spanish because their phonotactic constraints forbid it.

> Does a term like “Latinx” alienate some portion of the Hispanic voting public? A recent survey says yes. According to a new national poll of Hispanic voters, only 2 percent chose the term to describe their ethnic background, and 40 percent said it offends them either “a lot” (20 percent), “somewhat” (11 percent) or “a little” (9 percent).

But it just isn't a word you can even SAY in Spanish. It's not possible.

Mitch

@tchrist so Chinese (entirely caseless. yay Chinese!) has a non-gendered pronoun tā which presumably should make every gender happy. But supposedly even with the ungendered word, there's still default gendered presumption to think the referent is predominantly male (depending on context). Reference for this? Some comment I half remember on Language Log for which I have no keywords to find again.

tchrist

"Rhymes with pharynx"

Your what hurts?

Mitch

@tchrist Oh... I thought it was pronounced 'latin eks' in English. The latinxos/as should just give in to anglocentrism and pronounce it that way.

tchrist

¡Pero el inglés no lo hablamos aquí, no lo sabías?

Mitch

12:11 AM

por supuesto

or I should say 'exactamundo'

haha

that doesn't even exist

tchrist

De boca española esa palabra no sale ni nunca ni jamás.

Mitch

like 'no problemo'

tchrist

Fonzorelli.

Mitch

Genau

I -am- surprised that people try to use naturally 'themself'. That just sounds like an engine having trouble starting. But people are saying it so good for them.

but them also

ok I'm starting on a pet peeve rant

Cerberus

This is a non-issue. Let's forget about it.

Mitch

12:17 AM

but then also it really bothers me when people say 'paths' without voicing the '-ths'.

It's like they haven't heard them before and they try and pronounce out the spelling in their head and that's the way it comes out

bath -> baths (/bæðz)
path -> paths (/pæðz)
wreath -> wreaths (/rI:ðz)

I'm sure there's more.

ok, rant over, got that out of my system

if that's all I have to complain about today, things are going pretty good then.

I mean it could be r

looks out window

whew

I mean it could be raining

Which issue is not an issue?
1) there were a bunch just mentioned
2) I've moved on
3) if you call it an issue it's an issue and can't be a non-issue, that is literally the most contradictioningness-in-terms possible.

and some other fourth thing

well

@Cerberus I see I -have- forgotten what we were talking about.

So

I guess

well done on my part?

What's up next?

The Webb telescope is supposed to be launched... is it Dec 22nd?

That's something to look forward to

Cerberus

@Mitch Excellent!

Mitch

@Cerberus all you have to do is wait for me to distract myself and

BAM

Where was I?

something about rain?

webs?

spider webs?

no, that doesn't seem right

OK how about this...is there a reliable news source?

Cerberus

You were talking about parasite waps?

Mitch

@Cerberus you mean like...

Cardi B - WAP feat. Megan Thee Stallion [Official Music Video]

►

Cerberus

I don't see a parasite wasp.

Mitch

12:30 AM

You mentioned something else though

Cerberus

I don't remember mentioning women in a pool, but OK, sure.

Mitch

poetic license?

I think it's a metaphor

Cerberus

They don't look Protestant, though.

Mitch

I don't know why Rosalia is in that video though for a 1/2 second

@Cerberus No, I don't think so either.

Cerberus

So no wasps.

tchrist

12:40 AM

@Mitch breathes, moths, houses, calves, wives

Mitch

@tchrist yeah 'moths' is what I was thinking of. or rather unable to think of.

'houses'... I don't hear it... or rather I think nothing of the difference

tchrist

houses is voiced; house’s is unvoiced.

Mitch

and I guess I've never heard anyone say calfs?

tchrist

Really? I hear woofs all the time.

Mitch

@tchrist well I'm sure there's a rule but it doesn't bother me if peope say it voiced or unvoiced.

tchrist

12:44 AM

Drives me bunkers.

Mitch

@tchrist wife's?

hoofs/hooves sounds fine to me.

I still think it's supposed to be dwarves and rooves

tchrist

Well, everybody SAYS it with a V, they just might lack the force of conviction to write it with one.

Mitch

that's what we need more people with the force of conviction

half the people you wish would have more confidence, the other half should just back off man

hm... my dog brain is telling me that someone would be very happy if I ate some food. And I totally want to make them happy...

BBL

tchrist

@Mitch We're running out of piss.

CowperKettle

2:17 AM

Cerberus

Yeah, we don't have that here!

tchrist

CowperKettle

> I was in Russia listening to a stand-up comedian making fun of Putin.
The jokes weren't that good, but I liked the execution.

@tchrist Nice, totally comprehensible. Thank you, invaders of 1066, for making French more comprehensible to English learners worldwide.

tchrist

Indeed.

CowperKettle

Invasions. Connecting people.

tchrist

2:31 AM

So much for keeping their distances.

Sorry about Ukraine.

CowperKettle

tchrist

For coronavirus tracking purposes only.

CowperKettle

@tchrist Looks like there will be no war. Biden agreed to Nord Stream 2, and Putin will pull back troops until spring.

Putin uses 10 divisions of troops as a phonecall ringer.

Very quaint.

tchrist

Does he ever fail to achieve his goals?

CowperKettle

Yes. He planned to make ordinary Russians as rich as ordinary citizens of Portugal by 2020.

Now the official minimal salary in Ukraine is a bit higher than in Russia, and Russian teachers from the Far East migrate to China, because in Chinese schools they get several times more money per month.

Putin has lanuched an huge development program this year, with trillions to be spent to speed up the economy.

We shall see.

tchrist

2:37 AM

@CowperKettle That's not an especially high mark, you realize. He still missed it substantially; he'd need to raise it by 25% just to match.

Cerberus

2:49 AM

@CowperKettle Hmm he thinks he'll have trillions because of high gas and oil prices?

Who knows how long those will last?

@CowperKettle Oh, that's good to hear, in a way.

Although it is quite uncertain whether Europe will allow Nordstream 2.

In its current form.

Mitch

3:07 AM

@CowperKettle Until spring? I thought the logical invasion timetable was to start in March anyway.

Cerberus

3:59 AM

I don't know.

Are offensives in winter still impracticable?

Xanne

6:07 AM

The ground needs to be frozen to support the tanks. Forthcoming article “Consequences of Global Warming for Tank Invasions,” not yet peer-reviewed.

CowperKettle

6:33 AM

How learning unfolds in the brain: toward an optimization view

If alcohol can damage your short term memory…
…Imagine the damage alcohol can do

CowperKettle

7:52 AM

Languages of India

That time is nearing.. the song Novy God by Steklovata ("Fiberglass" in Russian). I hope this year somebody makes more spoofs.

Стекловата - Новый год (Steklovata - Novy God)

►

Novy God means "New Year"

Стекловата - Новый Год (cover)

►

Oh, this cover I did not notice.

Novi God - All versions (Compilation Nowy God)

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Мексиканский кавер на песню Стекловаты - Новый год

►

LOL

CowperKettle

10:37 AM

I walked my mom to the revaccination station and back. Helped a Chinese man to fill out the form. He poorly knew Russian, and had zero knowledge of English.

There was even a black guy filling out a form.

The Chinese guy's name was Li Sinlu. Or "Shunlu"? Li is a surname, and Sinlu is a first name.

He was smiling constantly and saying spasibo (thank you)

I could recall only the Chinese word nihao but I did not use it.

你好

I don't know how "thank-you" sounds in Chinese.

Ah. It's syeah-syeah nee

Xièxiè nǐ

How to Say Thank You in Mandarin Chinese Including Many Thanks and Thanks So Much | Rosetta Stone®

►

CowperKettle

11:07 AM

Word of the day: bindi (red dot in the forehead of Indian women)

> Never lie to Indian girls. That red dot means they are recording everything.

Matt E. Эллен

12:10 PM

@Mitch I went looking (on twitter) and I found a few instances of neo-pronouns (e.g.). Having a second think, I guess "he/him" makes it clear I'm talking about my pronouns rather than having to write more (e.g. "I go by masculine pronouns" or whatever). Just putting "he" in a profile could more easily be missed. I also saw quite a few "she/they" or "he/they" (and some other varieties), which makes more sense.

I agree that neo-pronouns won't take off. feels like the pronoun bag is full, and the neo-pronouns just won't fit

SmokeDetector

12:33 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Url in title (95): Which is correct, "Your domain google.com" or "Your google.com domain"?‭ by Prithvi‭ on english.SE

CowperKettle

1:04 PM

What if some famous rap musician starts using noun cases in English? Not a whole set of cases, just one or two for starts.

I wonder if that will result in an adoption of cases.

Mitch

1:17 PM

@MattE.Эллен Yes, I bet, for the reasons you say, that it was a slightly conscious design decision to make it clear what was going on, not an attempt to make many permutations possible.

@MattE.Эллен To me they sound like 1950's geewhiz sci-fi, or like a costume party with wild costumes that would just feel weird to wear everyday.

CowperKettle

Mitch

@CowperKettle AAE seems to be a constant source of new vocabulary in standard English, which then gets adopted in GenAmE and BrE and pretty quickly into World English.

CowperKettle

I picture-googled for "1950's geewhiz sci-fi", and fell through into a picture hole.

Mitch

@CowperKettle I feel like if you have more than one case, it is easy enough to add others. But English (despite the grammatical terminology) really has no cases, at least not like Russian/German/Latin. So it would be like the pronouns... no concept of other cases, so no realization that a new case could be a thing.

But!

You surely know of how AAE has a much more complex verb sense than GenAmE.

CowperKettle

For instance, instead of "He was hit by a car" you could add -im to the noun: "He was hit carim".

Mitch

1:28 PM

And that is something that could show up in lyrics and then eventually in the standard

CowperKettle

"The bill was passed Senatim".

(by the Senate)

And gradually build up from there.

Mitch

@CowperKettle Yes, that is a great example of a new case, but also would show that it is not likely to be adopted (I say that as a native speaker hearing it)

CowperKettle

A Yekaterinburg woman broke her arm at the trauma station where she came because she had broken her leg.

The station's guard did not let her friend accompany her into the station, and she was jumping on one leg there, and fell.

Covid measures are tough.

This is a real story ))) Happened on 5 December - e1.ru/text/incidents/2021/12/05/70296209

CowperKettle

1:54 PM

Guess what this is. A covid vaccine factory.

> Medicago uses plants as living factories to grow virus-like particles, which mimic the spike protein that coats the coronavirus.

The Medicago study involved 24,000 adult volunteers who received either the vaccine or a dummy shot and were followed to track COVID-19 infections and complications.

Efficacy 71%.

COVID-19: Canadian manufacturer Medicago says its vaccine shows promise in trials

►

tchrist

2:25 PM

@CowperKettle Hurray now we can vaccinate vegetarians!

Robusto

2:53 PM

@tchrist Republicans paying people not to get vaccinated

tchrist

Yeah, I had read that.

Robusto

Honestly.

tchrist

Just another death cult.

Robusto

Everyone should have a gun and carry it everywhere. But nobody should get vaccinated.

Flats

everyone should know how to use a gun

but you don't need to own one

and everyone should get vaccinated

but you shouldn't be forced to

that's my thought on what a "reasonable" person from that group would think

but we all know that not everyone is reasonable

Mitch

3:01 PM

@CowperKettle things can change but usually not deliberately. for things to catch on it usually needs to be organic, people do it naturally, as a matter of course.

tchrist

@Flats Doesn't everybody already know how? After all, they don't call it a point-and-shoot user interface for nothing, now do they now? :)

Flats

@tchrist But not everyone can use one safely, and that leads to unnecessary incidents

Mitch

@tchrist wait... you have to -pay- in order to call it that kind of interface?

LIke 'Windows' is a trademark you have to pay for?

So for every time you pull the trigger, there's a fee?

Robusto

@tchrist I thought it was point-and-click. No shooting involved.

Mitch

@Robusto Shoot, that's a good point

tchrist

3:07 PM

@Flats Which is why the most important post-primary classes in school remain Hunting Education, Driving Education, Drinking Education, and Sexing Education.

Any two of those can run concurrently, and often do so.

Mitch

I feel like it was only yesterday that I saw an article on the experiment some guy did comparing habitual 'be' and present null-copula in AAE speakers and standard English speakers in like 5 year olds.

Flats

@tchrist to be fair, those are all taught in a sense. firearms safety is required to hunt, drivers education is mandatory to drive a car, and every school that I have ever attended has brought in education about alcohol, drugs and sex so I mean

Mitch

@tchrist The Bureau of ATFS

tchrist

@Mitch Your pinned canisurvey is no longer accepting entrants.

Mitch

I remember drivers ed and sex ed (taught by the soccer coach) but no drugs/alcohol ed. I must be old.

@tchrist unpinned. I thought that would get rid of all the stars but I guess not.

clicked on the right one this time

Flats

3:13 PM

@Mitch lol we had a required course on it in college, and I know for sure it was discussed in out health classes along with sex ed and other topics

Robusto

I went to Catholic school. We weren't taught about sex, except that it was something you should never, ever even think about.

Mitch

in college? I think the only required thing I had in college was swimming and I luckily tested out of that

@Robusto half the old testament is about it

Flats

@Robusto sounds like your parents screwed you over

Mitch

the other half about wars and stuff

Flats

@Mitch Swimming? interesting

Robusto

3:15 PM

@Flats They didn't even go to church. Which did teach me important lessons about hypocrisy.

Mitch

@Flats I mean they want you to be prepared in case your ship gets torpedoed

Flats

@Mitch ah, military. Gotcha

tchrist

@Flats Swimming was required in high school.

Mitch

@Robusto maybe the catholic school had other things going for it that wasn't religion

Flats

@Robusto the best way to turn someone from religion is to force it upon them

Mitch

3:16 PM

like the local public schools aren't as good educationally?

Robusto

@Mitch To be fair, though, the Catholic prep school I went to did have high standards on education. When I got into college I tested out of all the "required" intro courses.

Mitch

jinks

tchrist

But you never had boys swimming class and girls swimming class at the same time.

Mitch

that's not how you spell it, is it.

Flats

nifty, Although I think it really just depends on the student more than the standards. A smart kid will find a way to be smart even if everyone around them is stupid

Robusto

3:17 PM

@Mitch Not in the town I grew up in.

Mitch

I bet the Spanish can't pronounce it -or- spell it.

Flats

@tchrist why not?

tchrist

@Flats Seriously?

Mitch

@Flats It'd be nice if that were true, but I fear that it just means that the one with potential will be encumbered

tchrist

Too many nekkids at once.

Mitch

3:18 PM

@Flats because the water... you know

Flats

@tchrist I think the only thing that was ever split by gender in my schooling was changing in the locker rooms lol

and sports

*competitive sports

tchrist

In the generation before me, swim suits weren't even allowed in swimming classes.

Mitch

@tchrist wha?

Robusto

@tchrist: Does this sound idiomatic to you? No sé cuándo volveré a verte. It literally means what I was trying to write, but I'm wondering if it's what people would actually say.

Mitch

did every one just stand at the edge of the pool not wanting to get their school clothes wet?

tchrist

3:20 PM

@Robusto Seems a little formal.

Robusto

What would you say instead?

tchrist

No sé cuándo nos veremos.

Robusto

So using first-person plural makes it less formal?

tchrist

@Mitch Yes, look it up. Happened at least into the late 50s and probably beyond.

No sé cuándo voy a verte.

Robusto

I was thinking about imperfect future, if that's what it's called.

tchrist

3:24 PM

The inflectional future is always a bit more formal than the to be going to future.

Robusto

OK, thanks.

tchrist

You can add "otra vez" or "de nuevo" or "la próxima vez" or some such.

Robusto

Of course.

tchrist

No sé si nos veamos jamás.

Mitch

THERE IS NO PRESENT TENSE IN ENGLISH

tchrist

3:27 PM

I don't know whether we may ever see each other (again).

@Mitch Un idioma que no lo hablábamos en este momentico.

@Mitch This is present tense, am I right?

Mitch

The form of the present tense in most languages is unmarked. The corresponding unmarked thin in English is called 'the present' but does not code for the present. "He sits" ... it's more like some weird habitual thing. The present progressive "He is sitting" is what people use for the present.

Robusto

@Mitch Why are you always shooting for the starboard?

tchrist

@Mitch Not true.

ama, come, y vive.

Those are marked in the present tense. I can give you half a dozen other Romance versions as well if you wish.

You're being too Teutonic again.

Or are you getting all aorist on me here?

English marks the present tense only in the 3rd person singular unless it's be.

@Mitch Gnomic pronouncements are so tensing they might as well be Delphic. It's coronavirus bad enough?

CowperKettle

4:16 PM

Deadliest single days of World War I

World War I was fought on many fronts around the world from the battlefields of Europe to the far-flung colonies in the Pacific and Africa. While it is most famous for the trench warfare stalemate that existed on Europe's Western Front, in other theatres of combat the fighting was mobile and often involved set-piece battles and cavalry charges. The Eastern Front often took thousands of casualties a day during the major offensive pushes, but it was the West that saw the most concentrated slaughter. It was in the west that the newly industrialized world powers could focus their end products on the...

> Based comes from the slang basehead, a term from the 1980s to describe people addicted to freebasing cocaine, a method which makes the drug smokable.

> The term basehead became synonymous with the crack epidemic that swept the United States at the time. Over time, calling someone based was a way of saying that they were a crack addict, or acting like one, especially in West Coast street slang.

I learned this only today.

> In reaction to people calling him based, Lil B decided to redefine the term. In 2007, his group, The Pack, released their debut album, Based Boys. In a 2010 interview in Complex magazine, Lil B described his new definition of based: “Based means being yourself.

Flats

pretty based to be honest

CowperKettle

> The re-invented based, as a signal of power and swagger, was picked up by the alt-right/white nationalist community online in the 2010s. In 2014, during a controversy over female video-game reviewers known as Gamergate, conservative commentator Christina Hoff Sommers was referred to as Based Mom for pushing back against criticisms that video games and their culture are sexist.

Flats

I don't think that it's fair to call her conservative

she's a libertarian leaning liberal at most

CowperKettle

I was coming across "based" the last year, but was too lazy to read up.

Today I came across "based" in Russian, as базовый. Then I knew I would have to actually read up to understand the meaning.

Flats

that's interesting, I'm surprised that it has spread outside of the US

CowperKettle

4:30 PM

Me too. I caught this specimen 5 minutes ago on Twitter.

Flats

oh if only I knew any Russian

CowperKettle

Never too late to learn Russian

Because Russia is beautiful

😍😍😍

Flats

I'm still committed to Italy, sorry to say

not that I know Italian

CowperKettle

One day after the Biden-Putin talk, we are shelling New York.

New York (Ukraine)

New York or Niu-York (Ukrainian: Нью-Йорк, romanized: Nʹiu-York, Ukrainian pronunciation: [ˈnʲʊ jɔ̈rk]) is an urban settlement in Toretsk urban hromada of Bakhmut Raion of Donetsk Oblast, at 37.9 km NNE from the centre of Donetsk city. The settlement was from 1951 until 2021 named Novhorodske (Ukrainian: Но́вгородське, romanized: Novhorodsʹke).New York is administratively subordinated to Toretsk city, that is located about 10 km north of New York. Population: 9,917 (2021 est.) == History == The settlement first appeared on maps in 1846 under its original name New York and was then situated in the...

Flats

4:46 PM

Right now?

CowperKettle

Today, based on the Press-Service of the Ukrainian Army glavnoe.ua/news/…

There was recently a New York Marathon held there. My Ukrainian friend on Strava sent me a weblink.

Flats

wild

CowperKettle

Марафон, який ніхто не хоче бігти

►

marathonnoonewantstorun.org/en

I was too tired to take part.

Flats

I don't run haha. I'd bike it though

CowperKettle

I've run 1805 km this year )))

I used to bike, a couple of thousand km per year, but for some reason got tired of it.

Flats

4:55 PM

interesting. perhaps you just needed a little break and it'll come back for you in the future ;)

CowperKettle

7:13 PM

Over-policing linked to higher odds of preterm birth

I was born a month early.

Probably due to all the over-policing in Moscow in 1978.

CowperKettle

7:41 PM

Word of the midnight: to spend a penny

> If you'll excuse me, I need to spend a penny.

CowperKettle

8:25 PM

> Congenital disorders of glycosylation are a group of over 130 disorders.

The first two patients were described in 1980.

41 years have passed, and there are 130 disorders. I wonder how many disorders are still undiscovered.

Flats

probably like 4

get back to me at the end of time as we know it to let me know if I was right or not

Mitch

9:12 PM

@tchrist this doesn't apply here but F*** Nuance is a fun read.

@Robusto Why would I capitalize it if I wanted it starred? It's annoyingly loud enough as it is.

Cripes, now I have to capitalize everything to avoid your second-guessing everything.

@tchrist hm... maybe I'm being ambiguous in my use of 'marked' and 'unmarked'. what I mean was the elementary forms 'il s'asseoit' and 'er sitzt' are present tense, but the corresponding form in English 'he sits' is not some simple present but this weird mix of habitual and god knows what else semantics, and no one actually uses it as the present. The appropriate translation of 'er sitzt' is 'he is sitting'. No one ever says he sits, to mean that guy is sitting right now.

@tchrist That doesn't augur well for my colonoscopy.

haha get it? reading my entrails... ha ha ha

But anyway, if you're going to say there is no future tense in English you might as well say there's no present tense either.

This all came about when trying to find good examples of habitual be in AAE for @CowperKettle.

> In that 2005 University of Massachusetts study, groups of black and white children were shown images from Sesame Street. In the crucial picture, a sick Cookie Monster languished in bed without any cookies, while Elmo stood nearby eating a cookie. “Who is eating cookies?” Jackson asked her test subjects, and all of them indicated Elmo. “Who be eating cookies?” Jackson then asked. The white kids replied that it was Elmo, while the black kids pointed to Cookie Monster.

> After all, it is the existential state of Cookie Monster to be eating cookies, while Elmo just happened to be eating a cookie at that moment. Cookie Monster, to those conversant in AAE, be eating cookies, whether he is eating cookies or not. The kids in Jackson’s experiment picked up on the subtle difference when they were as young as 5 or 6.

2

many links out there to similar but this was from Slate

Flats

9:52 PM

@Mitch That is extremely interesting

SmokeDetector

11:40 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in answer, no whitespace in answer (184): A word to describe responses such as "I see" and "Okay"‭ by Radwa Magdy‭ on english.SE

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…