English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

12:09 AM

@Cerberus I disagree with your reading here at many levels. You so seem to want to pick a fight with America that you're clutching at ridiculous accusations of evil deeds.

I also take exception to the idea that contributing 580 million doses to the needy is some sort of reputation scam.

There's no "pretending to be altruistic" going on here. Neither has there been a coverup about vaccinating one's own.

Cerberus

12:36 AM

@tchrist Then I have to disagree with you.

I have seen this pretence.

Cerberus

1:06 AM

> Johnson maakte er eind maart nog een grap over: het Britse vaccinatieprogramma was zo’n succes dankzij „hebberigheid en kapitalisme”, zei hij op een besloten bijeenkomst van Conservatieve parlementariërs ...

Or no pretence.

> President Joe Biden verzorgt de aftrap: op de G7 zal hij bekendmaken 500 miljoen doses van het Pfizer-vaccin te kopen, die in 2021 en 2022 moeten worden verdeeld over 92 armere landen via Covax, het inkoopmechanisme dat vaccins levert aan lage- en middeninkomenslanden.

I'm glad Biden has decided to distribute the 500 million doses through Covax.

tchrist

Cerberus

> I was taking photos in the main hall of the Sulaymaniyah Museum and came across a display case containing a small clay tablet. The description beside it said the tablet was part of the Epic of Gilgamesh and a fragment of tablet V. Immediately I thought it was a ‘replica’ as the description was superficial. It did not say the tablet was genuine, that it was newly discovered or even told about the many new pieces of information it had revealed.

etc.worldhistory.org/exhibitions/…

tchrist

1:21 AM

Okay, yours is older than mine.

Cerberus

> Still, this tablet captured the attention of Professor Al-Rawi when he skimmed the cuneiform inscriptions on it. He immediately intervened and told Mr. Hashim to buy it, “just give him what he wants, I will tell you later on,” Al-Rawi said to Abdullah. The final price was $800.

@tchrist Just a tiny bit in the grand scale of mankind's existence.

tchrist

The end of Bonny Heck, where he waxes eloquent in his (necessarily) Dog Latin.

In the bottom pair of lines there he rhymes Vier ("fear") with Shire!

Cerberus

Is quo' short for quoth or something?

And lost rhymes with coast?

tchrist

Yes. Isn't that interesting!

The laſt Dying Words of
BONNY HECK
A Famous Grey�Hound in the Shire of �ife.


����, alas, quo’ bonny Heck,
   On former days when I reflect!
I was a Dog much in reſpect
For doughty Deed :
But now I muſt hing by the Neck
    Without Rameed.

O ſy, Sirs, for black buming Shame,
Ye’ll bring a Blunder on your Name!
Pray tell me wherein I’m to blame?
    Is’t in Effect.
Becauſe I’m Criple, Auld and Lame?
    Quo’ bony Heck.

What great Feats I have done my Sell
Within Clink of Kilrenny Bell,
When I was Souple, Young and Fell

Yeah, that lost something in the paste's formatting, but you get the idea.

Strange rhymes abound.

William Hamilton (comic poet)

William Hamilton (1665? – 24 May 1751) was a Scottish poet. He wrote comic, mock-tragic poetry such as "The Last Dying Words of Bonny Heck" - a once-champion hare coursing greyhound in the East Neuk of Fife who was about to be hanged, for growing too slow. It is written in anglified Scots, with a sprightly narrative and wry comic touches. == Life == Hamilton was born in Gilbertfield, Cambuslang, Scotland. In the Familiar Epistles he exchanged with Allan Ramsay, he modestly acknowledges the limitations of his own muse. Ramsay singles out Heck as he suggests there is room for all sorts in poetry...

He was Scottish. This explains everything. :)

You can read the original here: digital.nls.uk/broadsides/view/?id=15876&transcript=1

Hing by the neck, not hang by the neck.

How nimbly could I turn the Hare,
Then ſerve my ſelf, that was right fair!
For ſtill it was my conſtant Care
    the Van to lead.
Now, what could ſery Hesk do mair,
    ſyne kill her dead?

Notice he rhymes the verb lead with dead. Those sound different now.

M.A.R.

2:04 AM

@shintuku maybe try different shoes / landscapes. And watch your method of running or walking, and try to correct it if possible.

@CowperKettle jeez man, tell that vagus nerve to chill

Or maybe there's just too much pufferfish in your diet

Cerberus

2:31 AM

@tchrist One wonders which one(s) sounded the same as now, and which one(s) didn't.

CowperKettle

3:26 AM

@M.A.R. I never knew that the vagal nerve decreased heart rate

I heart of vagal nerve stimulation being used for resistant epilepsy

SmokeDetector

4:05 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer (61): A term needed for mixed pharmaceutical compounds ✏️ by Ashwini Sharma on english.SE

CowperKettle

4:38 AM

> 8) details of the source document used as the grounds for the transfer of the medicinal product (date and number);

Is it okay to place the before grounds in such a generic sentence from an official paper?

Or is it better to omit the?

as grounds for really dropped after the great financial crisis of 2008

CowperKettle

5:19 AM

A woman in Kursk burned her 8-year old son for telling her boyfriend about her affairs on the side. She douzed him with petrol and ignited, and failed to put out the flame, so the boy died. progorodnsk.ru/news/view/238900

CowperKettle

6:30 AM

Israel becomes first country ever to ban fur

Rudeness Leads to Anchoring in Medical Diagnoses

Anchoring (cognitive bias)

The anchoring effect is a cognitive bias whereby an individual's decisions are influenced by a particular reference point or 'anchor'. Once the value of the anchor is set, subsequent arguments, estimates, etc. made by an individual may change from what they would have otherwise been without the anchor. For example, an individual may be more likely to purchase a car if it is placed alongside a more expensive model (the anchor). Prices discussed in negotiations that are lower than the anchor may seem reasonable, perhaps even cheap to the buyer, even if said prices are still relatively higher than...

M.A.R.

7:55 AM

@CowperKettle yeah I was making a nerdy joke: it's the nerve that tells you to chill.

Hairi

8:33 AM

Hello folks

How to say that information collected is filtered by date: from 2021-01-01 up until now

My sentence is

"The data is filtered by time from 2021-01-01 up to now"

Is that correct way ?

CowperKettle

8:52 AM

@Hairi Sounds okay, although I'm a Russian

"The data is filtered by time, and includes only the records dating from 2021-01-01 up to now"

(To expatiate a bit, if you feel uncertain)

Looks like we're having the beginning of a (the?) third wave of covid.

Russia's vaccination count is to low to prevent a large wave. Only about 12% have received any shots.

Xanne

@Hairi The data is filtered by time, you say. what time unir, a day, an hour? Is it really filtered, or is it summarized or collated by some time unit. “filtered suggests that some data are removed. Maybe even seasonally adjusted. So I’d want more info on what kind of data I’d be getting. [unit not unir in line one]

CowperKettle

9:19 AM

LOL

Hairi

9:43 AM

@CowperKettle 10x

@Xanne Yes the source contains data for much wider range of time- THe idea is to show that we have selected only recent data. That is from the beginning of the year up to now.

Robusto

12:26 PM

Scientists proclaim a fifth ocean.

Robusto

12:48 PM

@Cerberus: Isn't "egkomion" here mistransliterated from the Greek:

> In Praise of Folly, also translated as The Praise of Folly (Latin: Stultitiae Laus or Moriae Encomium; Greek title: Μωρίας ἐγκώμιον (Morias egkomion); Dutch title: Lof der Zotheid), is an essay written in Latin in 1509 by Desiderius Erasmus of Rotterdam and first printed in June 1511.

"Morias egkomion?"

Matt E. Эллен

yeah

that's gamma

Robusto

gamma lambda ding dong

So what else is nu?

Matt E. Эллен

fun facts about Greek (regular Greek): ν is pronounced ni, μ is pronounced mi, τ is prnounced taf, and β is pronounced vita. (also γ is not technically pronounced gamma, but we don't have the phonemes in English, so gamma will have to do)

You know those scenes in Brooklyn 99 where Boyle is trying to teach Jake how to pronounce Nikolaj? That's my girlfriend trying to get me to pronounce γ correctly.

CowperKettle

stoic.today/#

Robusto

1:04 PM

@MattE.Эллен It's all Greek to me.

Matt E. Эллен

είναι για μένα όλα κινέζικα

CowperKettle

> If on finding yourself with a desire that nothing satisfies, you still do not shrug your shoulders and say ‘That’s life,’ you are a lost soul.

Bot or real philosopher?

Matt E. Эллен

@CowperKettle that feels real. I really identify with it :D

CowperKettle

@MattE.Эллен Written by a GPT-3 bot named Marcus Aurelius

Matt E. Эллен

:-o

could be my therapist

CowperKettle

1:10 PM

> To follow is great, to lead is greater, but to follow the leader is greater still.

Proof that bots are still not understanding their task.

This quote is so blatantly non-stoic-philosopher

> Happiness in practical life is the ability to carry out your will without interference. (BOT)

> На свете счастья нет, но есть покой и воля. (There is no happiness in this life, but only calmness and will. - Russian poet Alexander Pushkin)

"One of the most striking differences between a cat and a lie is that a cat has only nine lives." (BOT)

This one is nice.

CowperKettle

1:25 PM

In 2014, Dudley Lamming was reading a study out of Australia that looked at how mice responded to dozens of controlled diets when one thing caught his attention: The mice fed the least amount of protein were the healthiest

Cerberus

@Robusto In (Ancient) Greek, the ng sound (in e.g. English wing, think, dingo) can only occur before a g/k/ch sound, and it is always written by adding a gamma rather than an n.

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен 聽起來像鳥語

Cerberus

So the sound of dingo would be written diggo in Greek, and link as ligk.

The Greek praefix en- "in" assimilates to eng- before thouse sounds, which is why it is egkomium, pronounced as engkomium.

Mitch

@CowperKettle What do you expect of a bot? The construction of a (modern) bot is to take a whole bunch of writings that already exist (like Meditations, and a whole bunch of other text) and through that onto a pile, and then pick out random pieces of it such that the output is syntactical and matches a lot of the word and collocation frequencies.

That's it.

THere's no understanding -at all-

CowperKettle

Maybe they will gain wisdom gradually

M.A.R.

1:34 PM

@CowperKettle thank you for all the expatiating you do

CowperKettle

)))

Mitch

Even if a new technology is used there will be no understanding

CowperKettle

Then the answer is in using more technology

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch tweet tweet tweet

Robusto

@Cerberus Ah, interesting. TIL. Thank you.

Mitch

1:36 PM

@MattE.Эллен How dare you

Matt E. Эллен

Twitter outrage culture

Cerberus

Anchises

Anchises (; Greek: Ἀγχίσης, translit. Ankhísēs) was a member of the royal family of Troy in Greek and Roman legend. He was said to have been the son of King Capys of Dardania and Themiste, daughter of Ilus, who was son of Tros. He is most famous as the father of Aeneas and for his treatment in Virgil's Aeneid. Anchises' brother was Acoetes, father of the priest Laocoön.He was a mortal lover of the goddess Aphrodite (equivalent to the Roman goddess Venus). She fell in love with Anchises seeing him herding sheep on Mount Ida after Zeus persuaded Eros to shoot her with an arrow to cause it. One version...

Cf. this.

M.A.R.

@Mitch who writes that stuff.

It's like every sentence would take half an hour

Mitch

@CowperKettle I am convinced that human wisdom is a mechanical (er... biochemical) process. But it is so much more complex, so many orders of magnitude more complex, that current methods are not wisdom. It is mostly just humans cherry picking some good ones out of a lot of random near misses.

Cerberus

@Mitch Yeah, that's probably it. People expect far too much from what marketeers like to call "artificial intelligence".

M.A.R.

1:38 PM

No wonder when you look at Eastern Asian history dramas the papers contain only like a dozen letters

Mitch

@M.A.R. Aurelius had a lot of time on his hands

M.A.R.

Like "you gotta find the rest of it yourself man"

Mitch

@Cerberus Also, people are kinda stupid

Cerberus

@Hairi Most correctly, data is plural, so data are.

CowperKettle

Mitch

1:40 PM

@CowperKettle That's sort of a different question...do we really want mechanical 'wisdom'? It's hard enough figuring out among us humans.

Cerberus

@Mitch So we expect too much from people, too?

Mitch

@Cerberus That is the case in Latin and in some medical circles, but most people use data as a mass noun.

@Cerberus yeah

Cerberus

@Robusto Note that Greek mōria is related to English moron.

@Mitch But that is less correct.

When borrowing a noun from another language, as a rule we keep the correct number.

CowperKettle

The Russian word for "marriage" is brak, from brati (to take) + suffix "k" (turning it into a noun)

Cerberus

For example, two Pakistani is really grating.

Just because people associate -i with plural.

It's just not proper.

Mitch

1:43 PM

@M.A.R. Oh. uh missed what it was referring to. 1) In chinese it is just as many syllables as anything in English.2) as to typing characters, there are really good keyboard entry methods and encodings to make it easy and 3) I copy pasted it from Wikipedia.

Cerberus

@CowperKettle In Dutch, brak informally means "hung over".

In addition to "brackish".

CowperKettle

And at about 1700, Peter the Great borrowed a word from the Netherlands that turned also into brak, but this word means "rejected parts" (during production, the parts that have defects are rejected)

Cerberus

Oh, really!

Mitch

@Cerberus It bugs the shit out of me when people misuse criterion and criteria. But data has moved on. No one uses datum in English

Cerberus

Cool.

CowperKettle

1:44 PM

So we have brak = marriage, and brak = defect-ridden parts that are rejected during manufacture

Cerberus

@Mitch One does. But even if one doesn't, the plural is still plural.

CowperKettle

And a saying arose "Nobody would call a good thing brak" (quipping at marriage)

Cerberus

It's just bad style to confuse plurals and singular. It's laziness.

@CowperKettle Wise.

Ah, the noun brak is older Dutch.

Possibly related to gebrek, which is related to English break.

Mitch

@CowperKettle Also 'wisdom' like Aurelius is pretty volatile. How can you judge when it's good or bad? Hard enough for a human.

Matt E. Эллен

2:02 PM

@Cerberus so... the mines of Moria...

Is Tolkien saying dwarves are idiots?

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен I came here to read this.

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен It is not for me to comment!

Mitch

@Cerberus Who else is going to do it?

Cerberus

You?

Mitch

NOU

Matt E. Эллен

2:06 PM

I suppose Tolkien could be saying the dwarves are saying dwarves are idiots. It's a translation, after all

Apparently "Moria" means "the black pit"

Cerberus

2:25 PM

Makes sense.

Mor-dor, the black land.

Gon-dor, the stone land.

Mitch

2:56 PM

Hol-de-dor - the land of running for elevators

CowperKettle

3:28 PM

My girlfriend said she would leave me if I didn’t stop singing songs by the Monkees, I thought she was joking... But then I saw her face

Hairi

3:46 PM

You are correct. https://ludwig.guru/blog/data-is-vs-data-are-an-intriguing-dilemma-with-a-surprising-twist/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwk4yGBhDQARIsACGfAeti77xsdyEj48RFsu161LxnCQ_i1xsaGr57OZoZlEyu7YoZsiMP_OoaAmoLEALw_wcB

Here is an interesting fact https://ibb.co/j5JMSYG

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch Hodor!

@CowperKettle ask a brain to explain itself and it makes its skeleton shrug

Bohemian relativist

4:25 PM

I think people approach you and befriend to satisfy his own needs primarily even though he says he comes to help you. It's impossible for a person to befriend you by helping you persistently without making any of his needs satisfied. His helping you is also to expect some of his needs satisfied in the process. So a person who accosts you on the street or an online course to say he wants to befriend you ad hoc is very dubious.

After encountering this jerk who accosted me on an online course and just went out and talked with me for two weeks, I started to understand there is some kind of people who approach you to say they are to help you is just an pretense. They actually have their needs expecting you to help satisfy.

there is another person who also often messages me pretending to help me. Now I think he is to expect me to satisfy some of his needs.

nobody would be so kind to be completely selfless and only dedicates to others without considering self's needs.

CowperKettle

Chechen woman Khalimat Taramova suffered beatings from family members after coming out as gay. She fled from Chechnya to a Russian region, and reunited there with her partner, a Russian woman. The Chechen police arrived at the refuge flat, kidnapped both women, and carried them off to Chechnya.

Nobody knows where they are now.

This is Putin's Russia.

The police acts as armed thugs.

Bohemian relativist

these people are probably too lonely during the social isolation of the pandemic.

CowperKettle

@Bohemianrelativist All people have their own needs, and seek friendship to satisfy their needs.

Calling them jerk just for trying to solve their own needs through frienship is bad.

THere are no ideal people on the planet. Every single person has several mutations in DNA, for instance.

Evolution works by allowing to survive those who can pass on their genes. Not those who are jerks, or those who are saints.

It's okay to feel lonely and trying to solve the loneliness by having a little frienship.

You cannot expect from random person to just suddenly give his life for you.

Bohemian relativist

4:48 PM

once their needs are somehow fulfilled, they will leave you alone.

like that jerk.

even he has said he will do a lot of things with you but haven't done them.

this is called fortnight stand.

Because I haven't trusted him and recognize his friendship.

M.A.R.

5:25 PM

@CowperKettle And calling the one person out of the many who gets out of their comfort zone and experiments befriending random people a jerk doesn't sound right, unless Bohemian is leaving out a lot of context

CowperKettle

6:07 PM

I love Christo Grozev

SE 200

Looks ugly

Big as life and twice as ugly

And they want to store fuel atop the fuselage. In case of a botched landing, an inferno for passengers.

M.A.R.

6:22 PM

@CowperKettle didn't know Stack Exchange was making aircraft models

CowperKettle

6:38 PM

> A machine-learning system has been trained to place memory blocks in microchip designs. The system beats human experts at the task, and offers the promise of better, more-rapidly produced chip designs than are currently possible.

Mitch

7:54 PM

@CowperKettle That is an excellent use of ML. But just to be a nattering nabob of negativity, there are existing non-ML algorithms that have been doing well for years and years. Also, these ML algorithms are using lots of examples of existing chip designs (designed by humans or machine) and is simply attempting to be as good as those. So the claim of 'beats human experts' is missing a lot of context to make sense.

Cerberus

8:45 PM

@Hairi Good.

Just because most people make a certain mistake, like eating too much, that doesn't make it a good idea.

As my mother always said, when we complained about something other children were allowed to do but not we: if everyone else jumps from a bridge, does that mean you should, too?

Færd

9:01 PM

Typical mom answer.

2

Cerberus

Yeah.

Færd

I used to want to tear my hair out by the roots whenever my parents said things like that.

Cerberus

Haha of course.

But now...

Robusto

9:18 PM

@Cerberus What if the bridge is collapsing and your only hope is to jump?

Cerberus

@Robusto Then the bridge will collapse on top of you.

Better jump up as it collapses, not off it.

Robusto

@Cerberus Not necessarily. You could be jumping to a shelf next to the bridge.

Færd

@Cerberus You're making me bitch about my parents.

Cerberus

@Robusto Unlikely.

Robusto

The bridge collapsing is unlikely as well.

Cerberus

9:20 PM

@Færd What I expected to hear was, now I think they were mostly right...

@Robusto Indeed.

Robusto

But for the sake of the rebuttal to Mom, this is one shaky bridge.

Færd

@Cerberus Yeah got that. But unfortunately that was not the case.

Cerberus

I see Robusto has not outgrown his child-like self yet!

@Færd Hmm why not?

I mean, of course they were wrong about many things.

But not this.

Færd

Well, first of all, nobody's kids have ever jumped off any bridges.

So that argument is useless.

Robusto

@Cerberus You're only young once, but you can be immature always.

Cerberus

9:23 PM

Indeed.

Færd

If other kids are regularly doing something, it's because it's probably not as dangerous as jumpiing off a bridge.

Cerberus

@Færd I'll tell her.

Færd

And second of all, imposing a strictly religious upbringing on your child and depriving him of things he likes (like music) is not a good idea.

Cerberus

Hmm I didn't know your parents were that strict.

Are they still strict?

Færd

A bit less, but they don't hold that much sway with me any longer.

Robusto

9:34 PM

@Færd This is true. My sons both said not raising them in a religion was a huge plus in their upbringing. "Dad, it was huge."

Færd

@Robusto I'm sure it was. Good for all of you.

Cerberus

@Færd That is always good.

Færd

Funnily enough, I just remembered out of nowhere a porn video where a visibly smart PhD student came to perform in front of camera, and she said she'd had a strict Catholic upbringing and therefor felt attracted to whatever she was told was sinful.

Cerberus

Haha.

The forbidden fruit attracts.

Robusto

More often than not a strict Catholic upbringing would make people ashamed of their sexuality, whatever it was.

Færd

9:39 PM

@Cerberus It does.

@Robusto Or repress urges until they erupt later in life in some cases?

Robusto

Perhaps.

Cerberus

I like the phrase "visibly smart", by the way.

Færd

She was. I could provide the link so you could chekc for yourself.

Cerberus

How could you tell from just looking at her?

Robusto

I just thought "visibly smart" meant she was wearing glasses.

Færd

9:42 PM

She was quick with smart retorts and rejoinders.

I guess it was a program where amateur people applied to perform as guests. They were interviewed before, during, and after the act(s). Of course a lot of such interviews are fake. But I could tell this one wasn't. Or at least I think I could.

M.A.R.

Visibly smaht

Robusto

Visibly despicable.

M.A.R.

Will Ferrell looks good when he doesn't look like Will Ferrell.

Cerberus

@Færd Did she communicate those retorts in sign language?

Or notes, perhaps?

Færd

@Cerberus Umm why would she have not been able to speek?

M.A.R.

9:45 PM

I'm visibly smaht myself. Will have to study helminths till 7 a.m. in the morning.

Færd

@M.A.R. For an exam?

Robusto

She was wearing glasses, a mortarboard, and she carried a diploma, artlessly displayed.

M.A.R.

@Færd Of course. I'm not that masochistic

Færd

@Robusto That wouldn't have gotten me off. Trust me.

Robusto

@M.A.R. You don't need to be masochistic. Maybe you just like worms.

M.A.R.

9:48 PM

How do people get up in the morning and say "Oh, time to do an autopsy on someone's bladder because of parasitic infections that have turned it into sandy mush". It's beyond me.

Cerberus

@Færd Since you could visibly perceive here intelligence...

M.A.R.

Like, I sometimes think about the teachers. There were so many classy topics to teach.

Cerberus

OK, OK, I'll stop.

M.A.R.

-4

Q: there is no cheese

there is no cheese in the fridge. how do I figure out who is responsible for ensuring that there is cheese in the fridge? how do you figure out who is responsible for what in a company?

support

Robusto

One man's mead is another man's Persian, I guess.

Færd

9:49 PM

@Cerberus Ah right. That was for exaggeration. And now that I think more, it was because of her body language too.

Cerberus

Yeah I was just teasing.

Færd

That was probably why 'visible' came to my mind.

Robusto

@M.A.R. This is the kind of question that makes me glad I'm retired.

Færd

Anyway...

Cerberus

I'm sure there are plenty of intelligent people in the field of sexual services or performance.

It can be easy money.

Robusto

9:50 PM

@Færd Her body language was classical Greek?

Færd

@Cerberus True.

Or some sort of personal revenge, or revolt.

I do daydream about scandalizing my parents like that some day.

Not seriously yet, of course.

Cerberus

Haha.

Robusto

@Cerberus I don't know how easy it would be to perform sexual services for strangers.

Færd

@Robusto Yeah, some Hellenic features.

Cerberus

If you have no serious mental barrier against it, it's quick money, isn't it?

If I had to choose between working a full week in an office, every week, or working one day in pornography...

Robusto

9:54 PM

Well, with that caveat. It would be a deal breaker for me, though. I'd much rather write code than that.

Cerberus

I would not be inclined to do it myself either.

And I suppose coding can be fun.

But your average office job would kill me.

Nowadays, even before the epidemic, one could usually code at least some days a week from home.

So no need for a week of being stifled in an office.

tchrist

@Cerberus Making the choice between being screwed five days per week versus just one? :)

Cerberus

@tchrist Exactly!

tchrist

It really is amazing what people will submit to for a mere $150k per year or whatever it works out to.

Cerberus

Maybe if for some reason you really need the money.

But most people in offices make nowhere near that much.

tchrist

9:58 PM

A good coder will.

But they have no need to work in an office, either. Not really.

Færd

@tchrist Well, some of them do it for fun, and with taste.

tchrist

@Færd I was talking about coding, not porn.

Færd

Ah okay.

tchrist

I'm pretty sure porners are underpaid.

Færd

@tchrist How much education and preparation is needed for a moderately intelligent person to get there?

tchrist

10:02 PM

@Færd I don't know what it takes for education, just dedication combined with creativity.

Cerberus

@tchrist Exactly.

tchrist

But probably they want you to have some sort of college degree, usually, just to prove that you can manage to work on a long term project and finish it.

Cerberus

@tchrist Why?

tchrist

@Cerberus You hear sad stories.

Cerberus

I'm sure.

It probably depends on how great an audience one reaches.

tchrist

10:04 PM

Rule 34

Rule 34 is an Internet maxim which asserts that Internet pornography exists concerning every conceivable topic. The concept is commonly depicted as fan art of normally non-erotic subjects engaging in sexual behavior. == History == === Origin === Rule 34 originated from a 2003 webcomic, captioned "Rule #34 There is porn of it. No exceptions.", which was drawn by Peter Morley-Souter to depict his shock at seeing Calvin and Hobbes parody porn. The image of Peter Morley's comic strip was soon forgotten but the caption instantly became popular on the Internet. Since then this phrase has been...

Færd

@tchrist Have you got levels of fluency for coders, or something corresponding to that? I'm curious how long a time one would have to devote to get to various levels.

tchrist

@Færd A lifetime. Where you keel over at 26. :)

Færd

An upper-intermediate level could be achieved after around a thousand hours of concentrated learning of a language, I think, for example.

Cerberus

I should think there are no such specific amounts of time.

tchrist

You won't begin to scratch the surface in coding with just a thousand hours of experience under your belt.

And, to some extent, it takes a certain mindset, which is itself a gift not a skill.

But it's less rare than people think. Coding isn't hard, or at least, coding badly is not.

But coding robustly takes care.

Færd

10:09 PM

@Cerberus See this, for example:

Common European Framework of Reference for Languages

The Common European Framework of Reference for Languages: Learning, Teaching, Assessment, abbreviated in English as CEFR or CEF or CEFRL, is a guideline used to describe achievements of learners of foreign languages across Europe and, increasingly, in other countries. The CEFR is also intended to make it easier for educational institutions and employers to evaluate the language qualifications of candidates to education admission or employment. It was put together by the Council of Europe as the main part of the project "Language Learning for European Citizenship" between 1989 and 1996. Its main...

@tchrist Right. It used to be intimidating to me, until I met people who were good at coding but were not intimidatingly gifted themselves.

tchrist

A brand new programmer hired right out of a four-year degree program has a pretty hefty starting salary, upwards of $80k/annum, and they're probably only 21 or 22 years old.

@Færd Yes, there's a knack that you have or you don't.

Cerberus

@Færd Yeah that is a bit arbitrary.

I know people who have spent ten years of speaking Dutch every day here, but whose accent is still pretty bad.

Time spent is an important factor; but there are other factors as well.

Færd

I'm sure it's not just any time spent on a language. They may be referring to specifically defined courses.

@tchrist That for 50 hours a week?

Cerberus

OK but still.

tchrist

@Færd In practice, probably. In theory, 40.

Færd

10:13 PM

I see.

tchrist

We're "overpaid" as programmers, they tell us.

Færd

Nobody's overpaid in a free market, are they.

At least, no hired workers are.

Many are underpaid, of course.

tchrist

All workers are hired, or enslaved.

Have you noticed that they no longer talk about "slaves" in the American antebellum South, only about "enslaved people"?

Færd

10:30 PM

@tchrist Not really. What has occasioned the trend?

tchrist

I think it's a rehabilitation thing.

Focusing on the person.

Færd

Ah, rehabilitating the name of the South?

Or the slaves?

tchrist

No, the slaves.

chicagotribune.com/columns/eric-zorn/…

Færd

Hmm.

tchrist

It's like how we're not supposed to call people illegals anymore, or cripples.

Cerberus

10:34 PM

It's just the treadmill of euphemisms again, then?

Based on a misunderstanding of language and...social psychology.

tchrist

I am uncertain. But it catches your ear.

Cerberus

I ignore treadmills.

tchrist

I've noticed it with increasing frequency on NPR over the past few months. It may be a policy change there.

But it seems like just about anything and anybody has to be renamed to something else ever few times per generation. Otherwise people stop noticing them.

Some of it may be in-group signalling of one or another sort.

> You glossed right over my use of “African Americans” just above, didn’t you?

Because you probably don’t remember or even know of the eye-rolling, protestations and general huffiness that followed the December 1988 news conference at the Hyatt Regency O’Hare at which the Rev. Jesse Jackson announced that his people would now like to be called “African American” instead of “black.”

“We were called ‘colored,’ and we're not that," Jackson said, "and then ‘Negro,’ and we're not that. To be called ‘black’ is just as baseless. To be called ‘African American’ has cultural integrity. It puts us …

Yes, I remember.

But then, even calling the "coloreds" and "negroes" "blacks" was just one more step on the ever-turning treadmill.

Færd

Didn't some African Americans take pride in calling themselves Black in the past?

tchrist

Yes.

Absolutely.

But they never Capitalized it. :)

Færd

10:42 PM

Ah right. I was curious, because of the line that says "To be called ‘black’ is just as baseless.".

tchrist

Maybe it's like how saying "Jewish people" sounds nicer than talking about "the Jews", you know what I mean?

Færd

Yes.

Cerberus

Not really.

I ignore this silly stuff.

tchrist

You aren't still saying ladies who wear sensible shoes, are you?

Cerberus

Jews are Jews and atheists are atheists and women are women.

Who?

tchrist

10:44 PM

That thing your country is famous for!

Cerberus

My general advice to the world: ignore the hype du jour.

tchrist

Grand dams and dykes.

Cerberus

Is that some euphemism for lesbians?

Sounds a lot better than "gay people".

tchrist

Gays of the feminine persuasion.

Lesbians sounds a lot better than gay people, or ladies of sensible shoes?

Mitch

@Cerberus Waiter, there's a fly in my hype du jour

Cerberus

10:48 PM

> ladies of sensible shoes

This is an actual euphemism?

@Mitch Crush it!

It goes well with the urine from the sous-chef.

(You shouldn't have been so rude to the staff.)

tchrist

@Cerberus amazon.com/Sensible-Footwear-Girls-Kate-Charlesworth/dp/…

Mitch

@Cerberus That's a bit strong

tchrist

So yes.

Mitch

That's a new one for me.

tchrist

> “Not very long ago, to say that someone was the sort of woman who ‘prefers to wear sensible shoes’ could imply that she was a lesbian” Even more recently, Kate Charlesworth’s graphic work of the same name was released, to shed technicolour light on the subject from her expert angle.

Kate Charlesworth has worked in cartooning and illustration since the 1970s, much of it for various incarnations of LGBTQ+ press the likes of The Pink Paper, Gay News and AARGH, as well as comics for New Scientist and The Independent. In the last decade, she’s produced non-fiction graphic novels Sally Heathco…

Cerberus

10:54 PM

@Mitch Oh, I'm sure it's well balanced with the other ingredients.

tchrist

@Mitch Really?

Mitch

@Cerberus Kind of tangy

tchrist

Never piss off the sow chef; she might oink back.

Or maybe just shake you loose from her back and spoil your aim.

Mitch

@tchrist Really. I mean it's not an unlikely euphemism but the general concept of 'sensible shoes' I've always associated with being modest rather than 'batting for the other team' (or is it '... the same team'?)

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