English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2011-02-25 (page 1 of 2)

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1:52 AM

My rep score ends in 666 for the moment. You should all be very afraid. What happens when The Number of the Beast meets The Name of the Rose? We can only hope this situation is transitory.

good morning every !!

@Robusto , are you chinease or korean?

@Robusto: I read 676.

There you go; now it's 686. I hope you like the even numbers.

...And now it's 16691. The reign of the Beast was short.

2:09 AM

Yeah ... I kind of liked reigning in Hell ... even for a little while.

@ina — Neither. I'm American. The character 夢　「ゆめ」(yume) that makes up my Gravatar means "dream" in Japanese.

BTW, @Martha, I approved a bunch of your tag-wiki edits.

Does the system notify you when edits of yours are approved?

Danke schön.

It notified me of the first one, because it came with a badge, but I haven't noticed further notifications.

Interesting.

Glad I could get you a badge.

Lordy, it's late again. I need to go home. See you later!

2:27 AM

@Kosmonaut: Thanks for the link to the chat.

Bye Martha!

2:51 AM

ahhan ok ok thanks @ Robusto

0

Q: What does the following poem mean?

There's a certain slant of light, On winter afternoons, That oppresses, like the weight Of cathedral tunes. Heavenly hurt it gives us; We can find no scar, But internal difference Where the meanings are. None may teach it anything, 'Tis the seal, despair,- An imperial affliction Sent us of the ...

@Kosmonaut, @nohat: I don't think this one passes the sniff test.

closed!

I also changed the entry in the FAQ

what used to say "Criticism of English literature" now says "Criticism, discussion, and analysis of English literature"

@nohat: Thanks. And good editing work, too, even though now I've commented to Alex Gorden quoting the original. :)

5 hours later…

8:11 AM

2 days ago, by RegDwight

Well, use the Heller.

@RegDwight: Done

It's a bit weird though, I got used to my auto-generated gravatar

8:25 AM

0

Q: Understanding how to treat the noun "Data"

Well I've never understood how to treat the word data. 1) I know it is uncountable so these sentences should be fine: First: There is so much data to handle that I don't really know where starting from. Second: He had to work on so much data produced by those simulations... 2) I...

word-choice grammar grammatical-number

Obvious dupe isn't it?

8:41 AM

If the question means "do I have to treat data with care?", then it's not a duplicate. ;-)

I'll have to do a re-read

@Eldros: I was joking.

2

Q: Is it correct to say "lesson count" or "lessons count"?

If I mean "number of lessons", which grammatical construction should I go for? I can imagine three of them: Lesson count Lessons count Lessons' count

@kiamlaluno very crafty of you sir

Mmmmmmmmmm! Kraft!

Whoops, you wrote "crafty". I must be hungry.

Is this thing you call Kraft something edible?

8:46 AM

Mmmmmm.... Ketchup.

On the other hand, if I'm not mistaken, Kraft Foods is owned by Unilever.

Who make tires and such.

Kraft Foods Inc. () is the largest confectionery, food, and beverage corporation headquartered in the United States. It markets many brands in more than 155 countries. 11 of its brands annually earn more than $1 billion worldwide: Kraft, Cadbury, Oscar Mayer, Maxwell House, Nabisco, Oreo, Philadelphia Cream Cheese, Jacobs, Milka, LU, and Trident. 40 of its brands are at least 100 years old. The company is headquartered in Northbrook, Illinois, a Chicago suburb. Its European headquarters is in Glattpark, Opfikon, Switzerland, near Zürich; Kraft is an independent public company, it is l...

When I say Kraft, I mean cream cheese. :-)

Yeah, I'm on the Unilever site right now. Found Lipton but not Kraft.

Interesting enough, in German kraft means force.

Yes.

Macht does also mean Force

8:53 AM

That's another force)))

More like political power.

Does that mean I can say "Kraft be with you"?

@kiamlaluno Möge die Macht mit dir sein

@kiamlaluno No. Actually, it's "Die Macht sei mit Dir, Luke!"

@Eldros Or that.

I'm not a Star Wars afficionado.

Well, I have about 30 to 40 Star Wars novel in my collection

Is it sei like 6?

8:56 AM

I only regret I can't devote myself to it as much as I used to

Or maybe I went out of this phase

It's funny; in Italian it can be "tu sei mio amico" or "mio cugino ha sei anni".

@kiamlaluno that's to be in subjunctive form if I am not wrong

@Eldros: Yep.

No, no, wrong, it is imperative

Is "sei" also a German word? :-)

8:58 AM

Ah, I'm not sure

yes

a conjugated one

but it's not pronounced like the italian sei

@RegDwight I though it was a hidden commercial. I always wondered why they used the word "Force" in Star Trek.

the german is more of a "zai"

Well out of the sci-fi context, it would be more accurate to say that Macht means power, as @RegDwight already stated.

That's a tricky question, actually. I tend to think of it as imperative.

I mean, it's not indirect speech or anything.

"Let the Force be with you"?

I would like very much that the German proposition in Area51 could go live

9:02 AM

I am committed.

@kiamlaluno that's right, or more "May the Force be with you"

I am lost.

Whoa, it's at 92 and climbing. Last I checked it was at 40-something.

92

German language

Proposed Q&A site for students having questions about German, expert speakers of German wanting to discuss the finer points of the language and translation questions from any language to German.

Currently in commitment.

@RegDwight I am too, the problem is I don't know to whom or where I could advertise the proposition

At least it is an healthy growth rate

Preposition? Of, on, to...

9:03 AM

I am actually a bit worried it might rob us of some manpower.

@kiamlaluno pr o position

@RegDwight What do you mean?

Umm, wait, I think the German Language proposal is okay, lots of fresh faces there.

"manpower stolen to agriculture".

But I am worried about the Linguistics proposal.

Just look at the top 10 commited people there.

44

Proposed Q&A site for professional linguists working in academia, industry, or the field, students of linguistics at the university level, and others with an interest in linguistic research and theory.

Currently in commitment.

Nohat, Kosmonaut, Stan Rogers, JS Bangs, Robusto, ShreevatsaR...

On the other hand it might take sometimes until it reaches beta status, and who knows what will happen in between.

9:07 AM

Yeah, I'm just saying that the day Linguistics goes live will be a very slow day on ELU.

@Eldros: I was joking. I meant to suggest that "proposition" was not the right word. :-)

You make too sophisticated joke

We'll probably find a healthy equilibrium afterwards — we're all sane people, after all — but the first few days might be weird.

:p

yesterday, by Kosmonaut

I like to tell myself that if you have to explain it, it means it was sophisticated.

9:08 AM

"We'll cross this bridge when we reach it" or whatever the saying is

@Eldros: I make too easy jokes; that is why they are never understood. Plus, I am Italian, which makes things even worse.

Yeah. Gotta get myself some beverage. Brb.

It's better I get ready; my cousin is waiting for me. (It's not a joke; I have really a cousin.)

@kiamlaluno Nessun problema!

Ciao!

Wow… even "nessun". That is really a, like to say, a jewel, a finesse.

9:13 AM

Took the first translation I could find

first good looking translation

@Eldros: You should not reveal your tricks. ;-)

In that case, you chose very well.

When learning a language I try to be honest, as such I learn more

"Nessuno problema" would have been fine, but it would have sounded strange.

The problem is that I am all over the place

@kiamlaluno Why?

¡Ningún problema!

9:20 AM

@RegDwight spanish?

Sure.

The upside-down punctuation is a dead giveaway.

It's quite unique to spanish and it's derivate.

It seems Venetian, to me.

I wonder why they do that

Too lazy to find the link)))

Or not.

Inverted question and exclamation marks

Inverted question and exclamation marks are punctuation marks used to begin interrogative and exclamatory sentences (or clauses), respectively, in written Spanish and sometimes also in languages which have cultural ties with Spanish, such as Galician. They can also be combined in several ways to express the combination of a question and surprise or disbelief. The initial marks are normally mirrored at the end of the sentence or clause by the common marks (?, !) used in most other languages. Inverted marks were originally recommended by the Real Academia Española (Spanish Royal Academy) ...

9:25 AM

Macht nix.

Jetzt schon.

@Eldros It's a matter of pronunciation. The o disrupts all the rhythm. Then, it could be parsed as "nessu no problema" (which doesn't mean anything).

So the Real Academia Española is to blame...

They do it to warn you it's a question or exclamation.

"Some Spanish-language writers, among them Nobel Laureate Pablo Neruda, refuse to use the inverted question mark[citation needed]."

9:26 AM

In Spanish, like Italian, you ask a question using an ascending tone.

You don't say "che ore sono?" using the same tone.

The problem is that, with long questions, you notice at the very last moment it was a question.

Aha! That's interesting.

But then again, Italians don't use the upside-down marks.

In Italian, a question is not so different from an affirmation.

@kiamlaluno How late is it? ?

"Sei tu?"

"Sei tu."

Ain't that a song? By Lionel Richie?

9:29 AM

@RegDwight That is because in Italian you can have problems reading a question, when it's so long that you don't notice the question mark.

My point precisely.

If you add a mark at the beginning, you know it's a question.

Yes, but do Italians do that?

I mean, it's only the Spanish, innit?

No. Italian doesn't have strange characters (except the accented vowels).

Yep. It's only Spanish.

It's better I get ready. See you. :-)

TTYL.

9:33 AM

Ciao

2 days ago, by RegDwight

Tschö mit Ö! Tschüssikowski! Ciao-Kakao!

Still have to get used to your new gravatar.

It will come

I hope

I wouldn't have expected it to have a black background.

As I don't know how to reverse it

Where's the original from?

9:35 AM

Wikipedia

I could work on the background eventually

Could make it white

Hm... it's not exactly hi-res... that's a pity.

(Just remembered Arrivederci ...)

Well I might search a better picture... maybe

Just checking it out in GIMP, it would be much easier to fix if it weren't that small.

I wonder if I have Slovak halier at home...

I have a ton of coins, must check.

So it is about time I do some work.

Oh bitte nicht!

Erinnere mich bloß nicht!

9:44 AM

Ich weiß. Es ist fürchterlich...

Naja. Es muß wohl sein. Viel Spaß.

Ich bleibe doch in Hintergrund. Offentlich wird es nicht zu viel von ein Ablenkung.

@RegDwight Außerdem, alte Rechtschreibung.

Aber immer doch!

1 hour later…

11:09 AM

@kiamlaluno — Sei Gesund!

Oh, look at him, he's Robusto right there!

Who else would I be?

That's a deeply philosophical question. I can't even begin to fathom it.

Damn foreigners, invading my back yard.

Then again, you might be Spartacus.

11:11 AM

That's Sportacus to you.

Wait, what? There are multiple foreigners in your back yard? I'm jealous.

Yeah, the Mexicans beat you to it.

1

Q: Can a posts be edited one times in totals by multiple user?

We came across this error messages while editing an answers: Be advised: this post has been edited 1 time by other users while you were editing. If a posts has been edited one times, should they be "another users" rather than "other users"?

bug error-message plurals

And some Russkis installed a brick walkway there last summer.

Nobody liked the wording of that question but me.

I mean, one upvote? Cummon!

11:12 AM

They also built some revetments because they warned me you might be coming.

I threw you a mercy vote. Happy now.

I am not asking for a vote for myself.

I'm asking for votes for Andrew.

His post is, like, funny and stuff.

No, but I voted on your behalf. That still comes out of your account.

Ah.

Yeah.

Anyhow, what's with that discussion of English literature that are my posts, lately?

Speak English!

... that discussion ... that are ...?

Or at least be more expressive. We're setting the bar pretty high for you these days, @RegDwight.

13

Q: Is it easy to spot an educated non-native speaker on a website like this?

There are native and non-native speakers on this website. I can identify some native speakers (mostly by certain colloquialisms) and some non-native speakers (by small deviations from idiom and the like); but several non-native speakers have fooled me with their proficiency. Then again, my native...

I went out on a limb for you, dude, don't embarrass me.

Them's preciselies wut me talkin bout.

11:18 AM

Oh, and it's "c'mon!" not "cummon". If you ask people to "cum on" you, you won't like the results. Or maybe you will, I don't know.

I'm learning a lot from Anderson Silva.

BTW, the structure of that sentence was supposed to be [discussion of [[X] that are [Y]], rather than [[discussion of X] that are [Y]].

But anyhow, that's precisely my point. This site is not a book club, and I'm not here for being discussed.

@RegDwight — An ex post facto equivocation if ever I heard one.

I never even tried to pretend to be a native speaker, precisely so that I can just write any rubbish without caring about the results.

@Robusto Why? That's what I meant.

<= Isn't buying it.

Talk to the gravatar, me mind ain't listening.

Your problem.

Obviously, I was equating my posts to English literature. It makes no sense for me to equate my posts to discussion of English literature.

That's back to reading comprehension class for you, bro.

11:23 AM

English literature still isn't plural.

But posts are.

My posts are English literature, which is being discussed.

OK, I'm going to take pity on you, poor foreigner. Here's how you should phrase that statement: "Anyhow, what's with that discussion of English literature that my posts have become lately?"

Um, no.

Um, yeah.

I read that as "my posts have become discussion of English literature".

11:25 AM

...

You dropped the article, Russki.

So did you.

I am analyzing your sentence now.

... my posts have become discussion ... => ... my posts have become a discussion ...

Ah, that article. Um, okay, if you insist. I actually take discussion as a collective noun here.

But whatever.

Discussion is decidedly not a collective noun.

Go back to your collective farm with that kind of talk.

BUT WHATEVER. My point is that I read your sentence as "My posts have become a discussion of English literature lately, what's the deal with that?"

But that's not what I meant, like, at all.

11:28 AM

Meh, I used too much energy correcting you. Now I need coffee.

Hahaha.

addicted much

No wonder you're correcting me all wrong!

@Robusto By the way, this thread should have stayed on the main IMO.

I voted to migrate to meta.

11:31 AM

One thing I will say about @RegDwight: He isn't always right, but he's never wrong. Now think about the meaning of that while I go have breakfast.

Guten Appetit

@Robusto I am actually thinking of expressions such as "I became king" right now. You wouldn't say "I became a king".

But yeah, have some foodsies first.

@RegDwight Why? The scope of this question is obvisouly bigger as EL&U

@Eldros "So how easy is it for an educated native speaker to identify non-native speakers here?"

And ain't that subjective and argumentative?

Just look at all the answers.

Some say it's easy, others say it's not. I say, just look at the profiles.

I don't think we have too many people pretending to be native speakers.

I can think of just one, but he blew his cover, like, immediately.

Hmmm, I'm still convinced it does not only concern E&LU. But that is definitely subjective and argumentative, and although interesting should have been at most closed and not migrated.

@RegDwight Who are you talking about?

11:35 AM

@Eldros Let me disagree. A closed question would no longer accept answers. Now that it's on meta, it can thrive forever.

@RegDwight If there is still anything to add to it

Well, let's just agree to disagree.

@Eldros Not pointing fingers right now, as I might be wrong, this is kind of a recollection. I think that that one user I have in mind used to talk of being a native speaker, when he clearly isn't.

@RegDwight Yeah, better not in this case.

@Eldros Nothing wrong with that. It's just that I wasn't the only one to vote to migrate. There were three of us.

obviously

11:39 AM

Two voted subjective and argumentative, if I'm not mistaken.

Actually, I'm not quite sure whether we're in disagreement. I mean, if you think it should have been closed and not migrated — well, it still can get closed on meta.

I mean, do you think there is anything to add?

Anything that would benefit to the subject?

I have no idea. But there are a few answers that look at it from an angle I wouldn't have thought of.

So there might well be more interesting answers ahead I can't think of right now.

Ok, I'm willing to see what it becomes before proposing to close it.

)))

What is those three ) you are constantly posting?

11:45 AM

Them's Russian smilies.

It bugged me since a bit.

We just use closing parentheses.

It's the fastest thing.

I use a weird mix of English, Japanese, and Russian ones. Can't bring myself to try out rchern's.

(:

Yeah. Too weird. Parse error.

Every single time.

So let summarize: :), :-) (english), ^^ (japanese), ))) (russian), (: (@RebeccaChernoff)

amiright?

11:50 AM

Yeah \(^_^)/

Yatta!

This yatta?

"Yatta!" is a 2001 parody song by a fictional Japanese boy band called . The one word in the song title, ', is the past tense of the Japanese verb yaru ("to do") and is also the familiar short form of yarimashita, an exclamation meaning "It's done!", "I did it!", "Ready!" or "All right!" The song was first performed as a sketch on the Japanese sketch comedy show , known as Silly Go Lucky in the United States, where Happa-tai is portrayed by some of Japan's most well-known comedians. The video features its members singing and dancing exuberantly while wearing only underwear with a lar...

Nicht unbedingt

But I know about it yeah

Ah, gotta love those inlined summaries. "A 2001 parody song by a fictional Japanese boy band called." "The one word in the song title, ', is the past tense..."

unfortunately

Yarimashita is definitely too long to write or say

11:53 AM

I liked this one even more:

Feb 7 at 15:17, by RegDwight

The Mariana Trench is the deepest part of the world's oceans, and the lowest elevation of the surface of the Earth's crust. It is currently estimated to be up to deep. It is located in the western Pacific Ocean, to the east of the Mariana Islands. The trench is about long but has a mean width of only . It reaches a maximum-known depth of about at the Vityaz-1 Deep and about at the Challenger Deep, a small slot-shaped valley in its floor, at its southern end. If Mount Everest, the highest mountain on Earth at , were set in the deepest part of the Mariana Trench, there would be of ...

"up to deep"?

"It is currently estimated to be up to deep. The trench is about long but has a mean width of only."

You can't make that shit up.

WTF?

I told you. That's inlining for ya.

That's a weird glitch (sorry, bug).

11:55 AM

I would post it on meta just for the laughs, but it's got [status-bydesign] written all over it.

How is it [status-bydesign] ? Just to get some lulz?

Okay, okay, I'll post a bug report.

If someone else didn't already do it.

I couldn't find anything. So here's mine.

0

Q: Numbers mysteriously stripped from inlined Wikipedia articles in chat

Case in point. For those too lazy to click, the original Wikipedia article reads: The Mariana Trench [...] is currently estimated to be up to 10,971 m (35,994 ft) deep. [...] The trench is about 2,550 kilometres (1,580 mi) long but has a mean width of only 69 kilometres (43 mi). It reaches a...

12:15 PM

Well, I guess now I know where you got your [status-bydesign] feeling...

@RegDwight — You could say "I became a king." Well, not you, since you're a Communist, but one could say that.

Sure, but my point is kind of that I could also say "I became king".

I was thinking of more examples, but now I've forgotten them all.

Yes, but your other construction involving discussion*was wrong, *is wrong, and will be wrong as long as there are people who understand the fine points of style and writing.

Um, I never said it was not wrong.

And there's your lesson in conduplicatio for this morning.

Mail your check or money order to my back yard.

12:26 PM

What I said was wrong was your sentence. Because it wasn't saying what I wanted to say.

I'll admit that it wasn't saying what you wanted to say. But what you wanted to say was wrong.

It's what you should have wanted to say.

Haha. Well, I can totally settle for that.

Why the long discussion, you could have had this so much quicker.

Uh, coffee? Remember?

Went to get, did I?

As I said,

Feb 17 at 21:30, by RegDwight

Next time I'm letting you all write stuff for me too.

Feb 17 at 21:30, by RegDwight

How about posting answers on behalf of me?

Feb 17 at 21:30, by RegDwight

I'll just sit in the data dump, watching the rep trickle in.

Hmm ... I'm something of a whore in this matter: I score for cash or prizes.

Ain't no such thing as a free lunch, Bub. Ya gots ta put in your own work around here.

12:30 PM

Well, I will be bringing you a check to your back yard.

Make sure it's not a Czech. Sometimes it's hard to tell them from actual checks (or cheques).

Thwack.

Ow, you hit me right on the onamatopoeia!

Repetitive much?

Feb 17 at 15:21, by Robusto

Or maybe she's going to stop in the neighborhood and Czech.

Doesn't count. Used in a different context and meaning.

Point Robusto.

Dont mess with me when I'm coffeed up. I will put a hurt on you like you won't believe.

12:34 PM

Empty talk.

Every single time, btw.

Why should I? You've already drained it of meaning and interest.

Feb 22 at 11:15, by Robusto

I can put a hurt on you like you wouldn't believe.

You're jinxing yourself now. How embarrassing.

It stands as an empty vessel, a stripped husk, the shed skin of a formerly dangerous snake — limp in your hands, your mind, your soul. A dead snake, an object of pity. That is you, my good friend. That is you.

Um. Okay.

Stop trying to live up to all my insults.

12:37 PM

Like, uh, a snake... huhuh.

Well, you wrestled that conversation to the ground. I don't think you're worthy of my coffee energy.

I should probably use it on ... uh, work.

What is the difference between decease and disease in pronunciation?

Yeah, I'll be having some boring Friday meetings shortly.

Feb 18 at 14:30, by Robusto

So there are interesting Friday meetings?

@Artic I might be wrong be in disease, the first s is more pronounced like a z.

12:46 PM

@Artic — Decease is pronounced duh-cease. Disease is pronounced diz-eez.

What he said

Hmm, I just triggered a rep recalc and lost 100 points. Weird.

@Robusto You mean that the first vowel pronounced as "U" in decease, don't you?

It's pronounced like a schwa, which I am too lazy to look up how to type.

@Robusto Ok. I'v understood you.

12:53 PM

də-seess

@RegDwight is pouting now. I can feel it.

He's in a meeting

Hey, if @Kosmonaut went ahead and closed this most excellent question:

13

Q: Is Yiddish a creole language? And if not, what is it?

A "creole" language is formed by the merging of two parent languages, usually through an earlier rudimentary mixture of the two. Does this make Yiddish a creole language? Was English itself a creole language in the century or so after the Norman Conquest? My question is really about what consti...

creole language-formation

Then maybe this one should be closed as well

0

Q: classical language

what are classical languages? How they are different from other languages? is English is an example of classical language.

language-evolution

One could argue that the second question is searching for the meaning of "classical language".

One could argue (and did) that the first is searching for the meaning of "creole language". No less a luminary than Joel Spolsky, in fact, did just that.

Then your question shouldn't be closed

1:00 PM

I feel the same way. Which is why I chided @Kosmonaut for abuse of mod power. Fat lot of good it did me, though. I'm almost disappointed in myself for voting for him in the election this time. But, well, I put the community's needs first, always.

@Robusto: vote for reopening

Let's see if the other one gets closed first. If it stays open, I will do just that.

@Robusto already two votes for closing

This is strange. Today I am rep-capped but my daily score is only 190. How can that happen?

including mine, partly because it's close to the limit of the scope, and because it's showing no sign of any research being done by the author

@Robusto whom did you annoy?

1:06 PM

It would be easier to answer the reverse of that.

the contraposition, actually

Whatever.

1:24 PM

@Robusto Noone knows that. Noone.

13

Q: How is it possible to exceed the rep cap without reaching it?

I was browsing my reputation audit and noticed this (which looks like a nice new feature not yet mentioned anywhere) in the footer: rep cap was reached on 16 days rep cap was exceeded on 22 days Now this puzzles me. I couldn't find any definition of "reached" vs "exceeded" on meta, but at leas...

discussion reputation statistics daily-reputation-limit

4

Q: How is it possible to reach the rep cap without exceeding it?

Okay, based only the title, the answer is obvious... allow me to explain. According to Jeff's statements under this question, the definitions of "reaching the rep cap" and "exceeding the rep cap" are as follows: reached: earned 200 or more rep purely from upvotes in one day exceeded: earned 20...

bug reputation daily-reputation-limit reputation-audit

I'm not sure these will help you, but I am pretty sure they won't.

@RegDwight — So I should ask this guy?

Peter Noone (born Peter Blair Denis Bernard Noone on 5 November 1947, at Park Hospital, Davyhulme) is an English singer-songwriter, guitarist, pianist and actor, best known as "Herman" of the successful 1960s rock group Herman's Hermits. Early life The son of an accountant, Noone attended Wellacre Primary School in Flixton, Urmston and Stretford Grammar School near Manchester. He played a number of acting roles on television, including that of Stanley Fairclough in the soap opera Coronation Street. Noone studied voice and drama at St Bede's College, Manchester and Manchester School of Mu...

Yes, that's what I'm hinting at. Thanks for getting it.

No problem. I'm here to help.

That's my line.

Them can't be two people helping here.

OK, agreed. I leave you to it now as I venture forth to brave the commute. Hasta la vista, baby.

1:28 PM

Oh. Okay. Laterz.

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