English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

2:36 AM

It is impossible to consider the tale of woe without referencing The Story of ‘Woe’ from Barðdala and Bjarnadóttir et al.. Vae victis: may reading it delight you. — tchrist ♦ 3 mins ago

CowperKettle

3:22 AM

@Mitch The companies promised to print out 50 000 000 rapid tests a month starting November. Maybe the tests are beginning to affect the incidence? Would be interesting.

CowperKettle

7:06 AM

> solar power stations in space will become a reality in the coming decades. Researchers in China have designed a system called Omega, which they aim to have operational by 2050. This system should be capable of supplying 2GW of power into Earth’s grid at peak performance, which is a huge amount. To produce that much power with solar panels on Earth, you would need more than six million of them.

M.A.R.

@Mitch And it's almost always a corruption of the original words, right? In Dune's case it isn't

Faheem Mitha

7:31 AM

@M.A.R. So, any time now? Looks around.

@CowperKettle You seem to have an inexhaustible supply of terrible puns. What's your source?

M.A.R.

10:30 AM

@FaheemMitha Have people lost hope in any other ways but a violent uprising to fix what's wrong with the world? I don't think so.

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. It depends on who you ask.

M.A.R.

The people that do make up a small portion of the population

I haven't lost hope in peaceful reform either.

Faheem Mitha

Attempted revolutions are actually relatively common.

They typically get crushed.

M.A.R.

Yeah

Faheem Mitha

The successful ones are the ones one hears about.

@M.A.R. Peaceful reform doesn't work if the people with the power are unwilling to cooperate.

M.A.R.

10:34 AM

@FaheemMitha They're willing to cooperate on some grounds and not others, but on the whole, you're probably right.

It will at some point become near impossible for the normal person, a bunch of normal persons, to ignore this realization and move on slugglishly with their lives

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. Obviously it varies somewhat. But authoritarian govts seem to be increasingly the norm nowadays.

M.A.R.

But, right now, it's pretty easy to pretend everything is good and dandy for the sake of stability.

Faheem Mitha

We just had an illustration of this with the Indian Central Govt and the Farm Bills. I don't know if you heard about it. The farmers marched on Delhi. I can't remember that happening before.

M.A.R.

@FaheemMitha Hmm, and I sometimes wonder about the uncertain future the great power in the hands of tech giants bring.

@FaheemMitha But that's India

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. I don't think tech giants are the threat. Govts are the threat.

@M.A.R. Yes, that's India.

M.A.R.

10:36 AM

People are fed up here too. But not in Canada. Not in Europe.

Faheem Mitha

People are often confused about threats. Most of the things are threats aren't really threats.

Govts are usually major threats. Along with things like nuclear arms. And planetary ecosystem related problems, of course.

M.A.R.

@FaheemMitha The point is how much power a few billionaires can have. Talking it over with the governments is the easy part. But now, the likes of Google are pretty easily on the way of becoming dystopian life-controlling megacompanies

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. I suspect there are plenty of fed up people in both places.

@M.A.R. I don't think Google is a real threat. They might assist the people who are the real threat. E.g. people who want to seize control of govts.

M.A.R.

So much as to assume a violent uprising is better for their kids' future than their own self-elected government? Come on.

Faheem Mitha

Ditto for the other "tech giants".

@M.A.R. You didn't specify that. You used the term "fed up".

M.A.R.

10:39 AM

@FaheemMitha Same diff. That's what I'm saying has already happened. Seizing that much power was the hardest part, and Google has.

@FaheemMitha Well we're discussing the ultimate savior prophecy, no?

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. Google doesn't have a miltary and equipment to kill people.

@M.A.R. Sorry, perhaps I misunderstood the context you were referencing.

M.A.R.

The point is that it exists. It can exchange that info with bad governments.

Faheem Mitha

My general point: people should be much, much more frightened of their govts. They're the real threat.

M.A.R.

The doer is besides the point.

@FaheemMitha They probably acknowledged that, but they're not going to let it ruin the dull routine of their lives.

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. Well, it can. It doesn't necessarily mean it will do that. I don't think that in itself is enough to consider it a threat. But certainly that's a matter of opinion. Concentrated power is always a bad thing.

M.A.R.

10:42 AM

Once that dull routine would become impossible, that realization would become much more prominent.

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. I just mean that one should always keep that in mind when govts try and get people hysterical about things like "terrorism".

M.A.R.

@FaheemMitha Uh, Google was already signing contracts to provide the military drones with such information

Faheem Mitha

It certainly seems that social media is a problem. Apparently they have quite a line in misinformation.

@M.A.R. I was not aware of that. Which govts?

And what kind of information? And isn't that prohibited by law?

M.A.R.

There was a strike, and the deal was on hold, but it only takes one distraction to have it signed off behind the scenes I guess. Not unimaginable, that.

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. Sorry, not sure what you are talking about here. Context?

M.A.R.

10:44 AM

theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/07/…

theintercept.com/2019/03/01/google-project-maven-contract

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. Ok, thank you. Looking.

Yes, that does sound bad. I missed this, I think.

M.A.R.

It's pretty easy to justify it with the usual buzzwords. National security yadda yadda

Faheem Mitha

Do these people not realise that this activity is in violation of international law? Or do they not care?

M.A.R.

So I'm saying, it's already here.

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. National security is just code words to justify murdering people. Mostly foreign. And usually brown. In faraway places.

@M.A.R. Yes, I see. Thank you for the information.

M.A.R.

10:48 AM

@FaheemMitha Beats me

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. I assume you are aware that the Google founders were sponsored/supported by the NSA while still at Stanford?

I was pointed to an interesting series of articles by a guest. This was some years ago. Maybe 2017.

M.A.R.

On the social media disinformation thing, I liked this line from Stormfront from The Boys, which I'm paraphrasing: You don't need 50 million supporters, you need 5 million people f*cking pissed off.

@FaheemMitha Mhm

Faheem Mitha

I don't have the links off-hand, but should not be too hard to find.

M.A.R.

I saw a WikiLeaks article talking about it

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. "The Boys", as in the TV series?

@M.A.R. Hmm. Do you have a link?

@M.A.R. 5 million people to do what?

M.A.R.

10:50 AM

@FaheemMitha Yep

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. I saw part of the first season some time ago. Quite dystopian.

M.A.R.

@FaheemMitha Stormfront is a Nazi scientist's racist wife, and it's the perfect analogy for Trumpsters and the like

So she's saying you need a few angry people spreading all the hate, instead of fifty million people that passively like you and what you do.

@FaheemMitha Well Season 2 is less subtle but much better IMO.

Faheem Mitha

To just complete what I was saying about the Indian farm stuff. Modi just publicly said that the farm bills were written to help farmers, but without actually consulting farmers. And the farmers are upset enough to march on Delhi. What does one conclude from that?

@M.A.R. I've not seen any of that. I don't think I completed Season 1 either.

M.A.R.

It's a bit too gory, yeah

Faheem Mitha

Also, hundreds of farmers unions wrote to the states telling the states to support them against the Central Govt, or else.

M.A.R.

10:53 AM

@FaheemMitha I conclude that people can no longer ignore the bigger things that go on around them and move on with their lives, as is the case in Iran.

Faheem Mitha

Bear in mind that there a lot of farmers in India. India is one of the few countries left that is still mostly agrarian.

M.A.R.

A while ago the protests were so widespread that the government could no longer call all of them hooligans and foreign agents.

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. By people, you mean farmers?

M.A.R.

In India's case, I guess

Faheem Mitha

But that wasn't really where I was going with this.

I was just trying to make the point that what the Center is saying makes no sense.

M.A.R.

10:55 AM

It's the point I've been making from the beginning. People feel detached from powerful entities doing things and passing laws, so even when they find out about all the evil stuff that's being done, they'd just do some doomscrolling in their favorite social media page and tsk tsk tsk some at what is and what used to be.

Faheem Mitha

If they really were trying to help the farmers (without consulting them), the farmers wouldn't be up in arms.

@M.A.R. Yes, unfortunately that's most of us.

M.A.R.

Until it gets so bad that head shakes don't feel enough anymore.

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. I don't recall having a problem with that. But I tend to jump around a fair amount. Sometimes a series will capture my interest long enough for me to watch it for awhile.

M.A.R.

You might miss out on some pretty good stuff

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. I've been criticized, often with justice, for being unwilling to actually do anything. But I find I have enough to deal with in my daily life.

@M.A.R. How so?

M.A.R.

10:58 AM

Well, I'm watching The Wire, and it's pretty slow going. Up until the eighth episode of every season, not much happens.

But then it gets pretty awesome

Faheem Mitha

The problem with political activity is that doing it effectively is very time-consuming, and potentially quite dangerous.

M.A.R.

@FaheemMitha That's also me, I guess, when I get a bit older and become a more functional member of the society

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. I can often get through one season. But it depends. I understand what you mean. I think of series that take a while to realise their potential.

M.A.R.

It reminds me of neurons

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. That's most people, probably. Also, many people have a separate problem. Namely, that they don't actually understand much of what is going on around them.

I don't think I have that problem, though I am sure I don't know lots of details.

M.A.R.

11:02 AM

So the way neurons work is by having an action potential ignited that would pass on to the next neuron and the next. What makes a neuron ignite an action potential in the first place is localized changes in voltage. So if a neuron gets from -90 to -50 millivolts, an action potential will be ignited that would propagate.

But, there are cases, when you can increase the localized voltage to -40 or more and not get an action potential, if you do it slowly enough. Our attitude towards politics reminds me of that.

Things not only have to get bad to get people to protest, they have to get bad suddenly and insurmountably

Which reminds me, I need to go study now. Bis bald!

Faheem Mitha

Sorry, dropped out for a few minutes there. Had to reboot.

CowperKettle

11:24 AM

For each single show the Simonyan family, working for Putin, makes 5 000 000 rubles. Paid by the Russian state budget.

Which is the amount a usual Russian citizen earns in 10 years.

They are paid well because they denigrate the USA, the Russian opposition, everything that might endanger Putin.

But to present Obama as a moronic rap musician was so lame. On a USD 60 000 budget you could surely do better.

Faheem Mitha

@CowperKettle They could describe Obama's actual record. Which includes plenty of horrible things.

CowperKettle

The artist representing "Barak Obama" says "I wrote an outstanding book. It is outstanding because I'm the first one in my family who could actually write". This kind of humor, gutter-level.

Faheem Mitha

@CowperKettle That's pretty feeble.

CowperKettle

Yes. They must be pocketing all the money instead of bothering to hire a good joke writer.

Faheem Mitha

I could do a better job. They should hire me.

CowperKettle

11:35 AM

Maybe they think that Putin's regime will not last long, and it's better to grab as much money as they could before it collapses. Or maybe they are just too greedy.

Faheem Mitha

@CowperKettle What proportion of Russians do agrarian/farmer work?

Also, how does Putin compare to Boris Yeltsin?

CowperKettle

@FaheemMitha 24-26% of Russians live in villages rg.ru/2020/01/24/….

Faheem Mitha

@CowperKettle That actually seems quite low. But do they all do farm work?

CowperKettle

I don't know

One has to delve deep in statistics.

Faheem Mitha

@CowperKettle Ok.

And Russia's population is slowly declining? That's good news. But the article makes it sound like bad.

CowperKettle

11:44 AM

@FaheemMitha Yes it is currently 146 mn but it will be 143 mn in 2036

> Under this definition, about 21% of the US population in 2000 was considered rural but more than 95% of the land area was classified as rural. In the 2010 Census, 59.5 million people, 19.3% of the population, was rural while more than 95% of the land area is still classified as rural.

@FaheemMitha Yes, it might be good, because the Earth is overpopulated.

Sorry, I've got to translate something!

BBL

Faheem Mitha

@CowperKettle Exactly. And 140 million seems like plenty people. As long as it's stable.

M.A.R.

1:36 PM

@FaheemMitha won't that mean the population is getting pretty old?

It would be a decrease in future workforce

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. I don't know. That's not necessarily true. If the population stays at roughly the same, then it shouldn't.

M.A.R.

@CowperKettle it feels like a scene from V for Vendetta

Faheem Mitha

In any case, expanding populations are bad, unless they're expanding very slowly.

Speaking as an Indian here, I have rather direct experience of that.

Capitalism likes expanding populations, because it means a larger labor force.

M.A.R.

@FaheemMitha well, barring pandemic times, isn't it often that birth rate drops whenever there's a decrease in population?

Faheem Mitha

But, as has been observed many times by many people over many years, capitalism is fundamentally insane.

M.A.R.

1:39 PM

Of course, authoritarian regimes worry about this because of the number of soldiers they can amass

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. I'm not sure I follow the question. Why do birth rates drop if the population dereases?

M.A.R.

@FaheemMitha probably every system likes bigger workforce though

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. They do? Do they also like a starving and desperate planet?

M.A.R.

That problem has always felt like to the leaders, a distant threat that I shouldn't worry about and the future would have to deal with

Faheem Mitha

Birth rates are a function of what proportion of the population are having children, and how many they are having.

M.A.R.

1:42 PM

@FaheemMitha mortality rates are often stable, no? So a drop in birth rate means old folks are still here while there would be a decrease in the number of teenagers a decade from now on, for better or worse

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. Just to be clear, the conversation (such as it was), was about Russia.

M.A.R.

I'm not saying it's always bad but it looks like a double-edged sword to me, not all good

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. I was assuming that Russian birth rates haven't decreased, and are just about at replacement level. But of course, I don't know.

M.A.R.

The best metric would probably be number of children per family

Faheem Mitha

If everything else is uniform, age distributions should stay about the same.

Though in practice they fluctuate, of course.

M.A.R.

1:44 PM

If people have fewer babies, it's because they're sure the babies will grow up to be functioning adults to support them when they get old

Faheem Mitha

In many European countries and Japan, I know birth rates are actually dropping, so the population is getting older.

Though maybe not very fast.

@M.A.R. If they are living in a properly functioning state, they can assume that the state will take care of them.

I suppose that isn't the case in most places. It certainly isn't true of India.

M.A.R.

So I think there should be a pretty good correlation between babies per family and welfare (in general), better than rate of expansion

Faheem Mitha

In rich countries, they have retirement homes.

@M.A.R. Possibly.

M.A.R.

I wonder what percentage of Iran's population is rural

Urbanization had been a very serious phenomenon here

Faheem Mitha

In any case, the bottom line is that this planet already has too many people. And they have nowhere to go.

@M.A.R. If those Farm "reforms" go through, we're likely to have even more serious problems here.

I was just reading an article which thought that it would gut India's farming industry. Which is barely surviving as it is.

M.A.R.

1:49 PM

@FaheemMitha I agree

> Over 53 percent of Iran's population were living in rural areas some four decades ago, but urbanization has influenced rural demographic trends, decreasing the rural population to 20 million, representing 25 percent of the country's population, Shahla Kazemipour, a demographer and sociologist has said.

@FaheemMitha what are these reforms?

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. That's very unfortunate.

@M.A.R. I already referred to those Farmer Bills. Here's a link.

counterpunch.org/2020/09/18/…

Counterpunch is generally a good place to look for things people aren't telling you.

Though the article quality is often patchy.

As I write this, thousands of farmers are camped outside Delhi, demanding the Central Govt (ie. Modi, Shah and their goons), withdraw the bills.

They specifically said they didn't want the bills "explained" to them. :-)

There are videos on Youtube. It's quite a thing.

M.A.R.

"free-for-all" sigh

Faheem Mitha

Screwing with Indian agriculture is extremely dangerous. Especially if you don't know what you are doing. And Modi has convincingly demonstrated that he doesn't. And doesn't care about the consequences of his actions, either. E.g. demonetization.

M.A.R.

Politicians are despicable.

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. ?

M.A.R.

1:54 PM

@FaheemMitha the wording of this so-called reform. India and Iran at least are plagued by hypocrites who want to adapt US policies for everything.

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. Not all of them. Modi and his creatures are pretty bad. Probably Independent India's worst yet. Though of course they can't compete with the British. Yet, at any rate.

@M.A.R. Quote?

CowperKettle

50 Countries have issued a statement that as members of the international organization for prohibition of chemical weapons, they admit that Alexey Navalny was poisoned by the Novichock, a chemical weapon agent. Russia has still failed to launch a criminal investigation into this, it has been more than 3 months already.

M.A.R.

But of course, because unlike the western countries, the regulatory bodies in these governments are often crippled, all the bad stuff is adapted and all the good stuff is left out

CowperKettle

Faheem Mitha

Typing "farmer protests" into Youtube gives a bunch of stuff. Here is a sample.

Farmer Protests | Cops Deploy Water Cannons as Punjab Farmers Attempt March to Delhi | The Quint

►

CowperKettle

1:57 PM

Of course they won't launch an investigation, because they will discover themselves to be guilty of poisoning. What sane person would do that. Russia is run by a criminal mob.

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. India has no regulatory bodies that matter.

Not that the Western ones are so great either. Consider the US, for example.

M.A.R.

@FaheemMitha People justifying US-like agriculture say this sort of reform allows corporations to roam free, essentially the market becomes "free-for-all", while in reality a few companies monopolize the whole thing and small business are kaput

CowperKettle

@FaheemMitha 10 years ago, I read that the increasing cost of fertilizers drove many farmers in India to commit suicide. This is horrible, a consequence of the Earth's overpopulation and inequal distribution of wealth and resources.

M.A.R.

@FaheemMitha and it irks me that it's always the US they want to imitate!

CowperKettle

The English word for kaput is curtains, and in Russian it's kranty (кранты). Curiously, all three start with the sound k.

Faheem Mitha

1:59 PM

@CowperKettle Farmers in India kill themselves all the time. It's been going on for many years. I don't mean to sound flippant. I agree it's horrible. But there are lots of horrible things going on in India all the time.

@M.A.R. Agreed. That's what the RSS wants, I think.

M.A.R.

@CowperKettle there are plenty of very very rich Indian billionaires, that always stood out for me

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. Yes, there are. And it's getting worse, unsurprisingly.

M.A.R.

Imma take a nap

Faheem Mitha

Anyway, dinner time.

Mitch

2:17 PM

1

Q: Where did "nightingale" get its second N from?

I noticed while searching the etymology of the word nightingale that it did not have the second N. The sources I checked only say intrusive N but don't explain it. Wikitionary: From Middle English nyghtyngale, nightingale, niȝtingale, alteration (with intrusive n) of nyghtgale, nightegale, from ...

Matt E. Эллен

the n dollar store

Mitch

request to vote to reopen

Matt E. Эллен

everything is n dollars

Mitch

It's not a duplicate of the mesenger/scavenger question

@MattE.Эллен even 'n's?

Matt E. Эллен

especially 'n's

@Mitch but the answer on the linked question included the word nightingale

Mitch

2:20 PM

@M.A.R. I'm sure a lot of Tolkien's stuff is intentionally garbled Norse and Gaelic and etc. But I remember seeing that the names of the dwarves in the Hobbit (Oin, Gloin, Bofur, Bombur etc) were lifted directly from some Norse poem.

@MattE.Эллен but it didn't explain the 'n' in nightingale. The explanation/etymology of messenger/scavenger is different from nightingale.

Just because someone poisons the well by -mentioning- the word, doesn't mean it is a duplicate.

Matt E. Эллен

It says that the intrusive n in messenger, passenger and nightingale are from the same place

so, it (rightly or wrongly) is addressing where nightingale gets its n from

the answer in the newer question says the same thing

@Mitch it could be worth making the newer question a duplicate of the even earlier duplicate,

Mitch

-If- one considers these questions the same, then the newer one should be the definitive one, it has the better answer.

@MattE.Эллен Is that what you meant?

tchrist

@Mitch Yes, the Dwarves' names are from the opening salvo of the Elder Edda, the Völuspá. So is Gandalf's, the wand-elf wizard. But I wouldn't be so sure he "garbled Norse and Gaelic and etc" because that notion sounds quite off to me, at least taken for its surface meaning.

Mitch

@tchrist 'modified' then?

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch I agree. I'm not sure the best way to sort out the duping (which should link back to where), but they do basically ask the same thing

Mitch

2:35 PM

'changed to his own liking'

@MattE.Эллен one asks about epenthetic n in the context of nightingale, the other about epenthetic n in messenger. Those are two different phenomena that require two different answers

tchrist

@Mitch The great halls of the dwarrowdelf, the foul dwimmerlaik, the mathom house, even the hobbits' smials and Smaug and Sméagol are either lifted straight from Middle English or converted from Old English. But to go further afield and draw Frodo from Fróði in Beowulf or to find Welsh etymons for the Carrock or the Nazgûl takes rather more work.

Saruman is converted Old English, of course. So is Orthanc.

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch But isn't it the same phenomenon in two different words?

OED says it appears from the same reason

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен No. It can't be messenger is borrowed from French with their patterned sound changes for '-age', a palatal (and possibly already had the -n- before being borrowed), and nightingale is pure english with velar, and no other examples with that pattern.

@MattE.Эллен nightingale -and- messenger?

Matt E. Эллен

yes

tchrist

And oranges for his provender.

Matt E. Эллен

2:44 PM

> Originally a variant of nightgale n. with intrusive n before g (this development typically occurs from Middle English onwards in the unstressed middle syllable of trisyllabic words (frequently adopted words) stressed on the first syllable; in origin the intrusive n is a consonantal glide easing the passage between the preceding unstressed vowel and the following consonant (usually /ɡ/, /dʒ/, or /d/: compare farthingale n., messenger n., popinjay n., celandine n., colander n.)

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен OK. fine.

Defeat accepted.

Matt E. Эллен

:)

tchrist

Don't forget porringer.

Mitch

However this is another strongly worded letter to the editors of OED I'll have to write about their life choices.

Conrado

Defeat can serve as well as victory,

To shake the soul and let the glory out.

Matt E. Эллен

2:46 PM

@tchrist the harbinger of porridge

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен I'm accepting as reasonable counterarguments farthingale and colander

The others can...

well

they can stop looking at me.

@tchrist Wait..so -all- the names are borrowed?

Surely Sindarin and Quechua are mostly cobbled together

sorry

Quenya

tchrist

I mention this because Tolkien was playing with etymologies involving the "intrusive N" of which you speak when he sought a solution to the puzzle of a rhyme for *orange*, a rhyme for *porringer* which had the N.

What is the rhyme to porringer?
What is the rhyme to porringer?
The King he had a daughter fair,
And gave the Prince of Orange her.

2

Mitch

easy to mix those up

Quenya and Quechua that is

tchrist

> There was a merry passenger,
a messenger, a mariner:
he built a gilded gondola
to wander in, and had in her
a load of yellow oranges
and porridge for his provender;
he perfumed her with marjoram
and cardamom and lavender.

Messenger < message, passenger < passage, porringer < porridge.

Mitch

lavender already had the -n- in Norman French

tchrist

2:51 PM

For a fair lavage?

22

A: What’s going on with “drink > drench”? Is it like “passage > passenger”?

The first bunch are indeed "a hidden regularity", just like a fossilized skeleton. The second bunch are a different phenomenon completely that I won't touch on here. The first bunch are all evidence of what Indo-Europeanists call the "Yodated Causative", a -y suffix that formed a causative/inch...

> In late ME. n was phonetically inserted before -ger /-dʒər/ as in some other words, including harbinger, messenger, ostringer, porringer, scavenger, wharfinger, etc.: cf. also popinjay.

You'd wharfinger, you!

Matt E. Эллен

forager didn't get this treatment

tchrist

@Mitch ‘Westu Théoden hál!’ cried Éomer. In Rohan everything was untranslated Old English. That was the point.

Including all their names.

Wes thu hal = Be thou hale, healthy, well.

Mitch

augen geoffnet

CowperKettle

@tchrist Great poem

tchrist

Even Ent is Old English for GIANT.

@CowperKettle The rhyme and meter schemes are brilliant indeed.

CowperKettle

3:00 PM

> Quinquireme of Nineveh from distant Ophir,
Rowing home to haven in sunny Palestine,
With a cargo of ivory,
And apes and peacocks,
Sandalwood, cedarwood, and sweet white wine.

-- = --

> Stately Spanish galleon coming from the Isthmus,
Dipping through the Tropics by the palm-green shores,
With a cargo of diamonds,
Emeralds, amethysts,
Topazes, and cinnamon, and gold moidores.

-- = --

> Dirty British coaster with a salt-caked smoke stack,
Butting through the Channel in the mad March days,
With a cargo of Tyne coal,
Road-rails, pig-lead,
Firewood, iron-ware, and cheap tin trays.

tchrist

Curioso.

@Mitch See here.

Mitch

3:16 PM

> If you have not yet read The Lord of the Rings, chapter references will help you to find the relevant passage.

implying that if you -had- read it, you'd immediately know chapter, verse, and location on the page.

@tchrist So the Rohirrim weren't the twentieth century Saxons or Huns or ... you know the bad guys the Germans, but were almost literally the outre-mer Saxons (but not the substratum Arthurian Brits-Celts)

Faheem Mitha

@Mitch Also, dwarves, not dwarfs, for some reason.

tchrist

@FaheemMitha Because its phonology as much affirms their ancient pedigree as does that of elves and wolves, of mice and men.

Matt E. Эллен

3:32 PM

scarf, scarves. wharf, wharves. and in certain dialects bref and breaves ;)

Faheem Mitha

When I was around 8, I used the plural "dwarves" in an English assignment or test, and was marked down for it, I think. Because at that point I had read "The Hobbit", but didn't realise that "dwarves" wasn't standard.

I don't know whether dwarves is an accepted variant, or just something Tolkien made up.

tchrist

It certainly is now. It's a form that actually precedes Tolkien albeit rarely, but he it was who made it popular, and this through a simple error on his part. He showed what its plural should be today's English with his Dwarrowdelf.

Matt E. Эллен

that's surprising. I thought "dwarves" is the plural, "dwarfs" is the 3rd person singular of "to dwarf"

tchrist

@MattE.Эллен That's how most of us use it now.

Matt E. Эллен

huh

tchrist

3:35 PM

But people used to say elfin not elven, too.

Faheem Mitha

@tchrist Is elven more common now, then?

tchrist

Elven is the elder form, from Old English Ylfe for elves.

@FaheemMitha I should imagine. Then again, now it has become an adjective, whereas Tolkien used it as a noun adjunct.

Matt E. Эллен

maybe they started merging with eels

Faheem Mitha

@tchrist Elven is a noun?

tchrist

@FaheemMitha Not typically today, but there's evidence that Tolkien used it more like he did in Elf-king.

Don't have time to dig it up this morning, for $job beckons. But it's in Tom Shippey's writings where he explains all this. Pretty sure.

Faheem Mitha

3:40 PM

@tchrist Ok.

13

Q: Why is it "dwarves" and not "dwarfs"?

Throughout the Legendarium, Tolkien uses "dwarves" as the plural for "dwarf". However, as this extremely smoothed Google Ngram search shows, "dwarfs" has always been the more popular choice: Etymology Online confirms that "dwarfs" was dramatically more popular pre-Tolkien: Old English plur...

tolkiens-legendarium dwarves

On SE's SF site, for some reason.

Would be a better fit on ELU, IMO.

Matt E. Эллен

Potato. Potatoves. — Major Stackings Sep 19 '15 at 4:19

2

CowperKettle

3:57 PM

Journalist investigators in Russia have uncovered a double accounting scheme for covid deaths, and say that the real number of deaths is double that of the official figure. zona.media/article/2020/11/30/itsk-covid

Blue - true deaths in St. Petersburg, red - official published figures.

So rotten.

Faheem Mitha

4:10 PM

@CowperKettle That's probably true for India too.

Apparently positive tests for antibodies here are off the charts.

M.A.R.

5:10 PM

@Mitch Well I'm saying the garbled versions wouldn't have bothered me as much

Mitch

5:42 PM

@M.A.R. Oh. I get it. If it's spelled the right way, then it's less fiction anymore.

CowperKettle

Top hats look nice.

CowperKettle

6:53 PM

coub.com/view/2lupvb

SmokeDetector

7:05 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at beginning of answer, potentially bad keyword in answer (35): What does "a lesser human being" mean? by Elijah on english.SE

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Repeated url at end of long post, blacklisted user (171): What does "a lesser human being" mean? by Elijah on english.SE

CowperKettle

8:02 PM

> The study involved 69 preschool children with an average age of 5 and 80 adults.
Participants were first shown a photograph of an object (tree, cat, car, slide or person) superimposed on a scene (beach, street, office, mountain or kitchen). The were told to remember either the object or the scene.
They then viewed a series of photos showing more objects and scenes and were told to indicate if they again saw the scene or object that they were told to remember from the first photo.
Adults had little problem attending to either the relevant object or to the scene and remembering when they sa…

M.A.R.

8:46 PM

@CowperKettle Odd!

Robusto

@CowperKettle: I think you may be interested in The Hound of Heaven by Francis Thompson. At first I thought it was Hopkins because of the subject matter and the numinous narration, not to mention the somewhat fawning religiosity, but Hopkins's language generally scintillates whereas the rhymes and scansion here serve merely to polemicize. Anyway, it has has some captivating rhymes and rhythms.

Færd

9:35 PM

So M-W says both drive safe and drive safely are correct because safe here could be a "flat adverb" (like fast).

I'm not sure tho. Do you know of any other examples of safe as a flat adverb?

Maybe safe in Drive safe! should be considered an adjunct adjective describing the subject of the verb (the driver) rather than the verb?

Mitch

@CowperKettle I suppose hopefulness at a vaccine in a few months could lead to lowering of hygiene standards -now-, which would be unfortunate. But the Thanksgiving bump in the US might also be matched by a Divali bump in India but occurring about now (Divali was a couple weeks ago) and a Christmas bump all over Europe in mid January.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Repeating characters in answer (80): What is this famous example of the absurdity of English spelling? ✏️ by hey on english.SE

Mitch

@Færd I don't know the exact definition of 'flat adverb' but if it just means "take an adverb and drop the '-ly' and just use that (when modifying a verb)" then that's real common nowadays.

haha see what I did there? I didn't even mean to.

Robusto

@Færd How about Apple's ad slogan "Think different"?

Mitch

@Robusto yeah, exact.

genaulich?

Johan Larsson

9:42 PM

@Robusto want to repair your device?

Mitch

por supuestomente?

Færd

@Mitch Yeah that's it. But drive safe is not that new, is it?

@Robusto Interesting

Mitch

@Færd not as new as 'think different' which was made super popular in the mid nineties by Apple.

'sleep tight' is ancient (as far as I'm concerned) from your linked article.

Johan Larsson

> Don't want to throw away the device because it needs battery replacement? Think different!

Robusto

But "Think different" itself was a play on a VW ad headline of the 1960s, "Think small."

Færd

9:45 PM

Okay. I'm coming around to this flat adverb phenomenon now. It's not that bizarre or uncommon.

Robusto

In English (AmE, at least), you can say "Think [adjective or noun]" and that will ask you to cast your mind into a mode of thought represented by an object or a concept: "Think England" or "Think blue" or "Think global warming."

Færd

Yeah I was familiar with that.

Robusto

"I met this girl in a bar and she absolutely would not stop talking. Think Robin Williams on speed, only faster and not as funny."

Færd

Still most adverbs cannot be flattened, I think.

These are special cases, as common as they are.

Robusto

"You did good."

Færd

9:50 PM

"No I did it poor"

Robusto

Generally, the more you flatten adverbs the less intelligent or cultivated you sound.

"I slept bad last night."

Færd

It's also a way to sound homely on purpose.

Robusto

And then there is the hypercorrection: "I felt badly that I didn't recognize you at the party." I hate this much more than I do adverb flattening. "Really? Why didn't you feel goodly about it?"

Færd

Haha

Robusto

@Færd Correct. Only I would say homespun instead of homely.

Færd

9:53 PM

Noted. Homely doesn't work like that in AmE? Maybe it does in BrE?

Robusto

Homely can mean homespun but its most obvious connotation is ugly.

Færd

How about homey?

Robusto

That's another thing altogether.

Færd

> Unsophisticated; unpretentious.
‘an idealized vision of traditional peasant life as simple and homey’

Not applicable to people then, perhaps.

> ‘Mary was blessed with a natural and homely disposition.’

Robusto

Yeah, but you have to work to get there, at least in AmE. Here, homey has almost entirely been taken over by reference to someone from your neighborhood, and it's been appropriated from AAVE.

Færd

9:56 PM

> ‘Eisenhower is seen as homely, modest and more at home as a coalition leader than as a field commander.’

@Robusto Noted

Robusto

@Færd Yeah, that could work, but it has a slightly archaic sound. Like you would read it in a book from the 19th century.

Færd

I see.

Mitch

@Robusto But also is much more common nowadays. Anti-intellectualism?

@Robusto That outfit is ug.

"I ran as quick as I could"

ugh...what are some -ly adverbs?

I thought we weren't supposed to use adverbs at all.

Robusto

@Mitch It depends on the company you keep. If you live in a trailer park, I would recommend using it more so as not to stick out like a sore thumb. If you're writing a college paper, don't use it at all.

@Mitch You can get a special license for adverb-flattening. I'll sell you mine for $50.

Mitch

@Robusto Sure. but I think the style is slowly shifting to trailer-park

Robusto

10:07 PM

@Mitch Maybe, but there are still bastions of literacy remaining. You're in one now.

Mitch

Flat adverb

In English grammar, a flat adverb, bare adverb, or simple adverb is an adverb that has the same form as the corresponding adjective, so it usually does not end in -ly, e.g. "drive slow", "drive fast", but sometimes does, e.g. "drive friendly". Flat adverbs were once quite common but have been largely replaced by their -ly counterparts. In the 18th century, grammarians believed flat adverbs to be adjectives, and insisted that adverbs needed to end in -ly. According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, "It's these grammarians we have to thank for ... the sad lack of flat adverbs today". There are...

but I'm not sure I trust wikipedia even though it is saying things in my favor

@Robusto No bastion can hold me.

I wish wikipedia were better.

it has a lot of promise

Robusto

@Mitch 30 years ago you would wish it existed at all.

Mitch

somehow wiktionary is awful

Robusto

Agreed.

Mitch

@Robusto Expedia was sort of it.