@M.A.R. How did they get that way? Wait... please... don't answer.

@Cerberus Electronics same.

@Mitch Oh, don't get me started.

Imagine the number of ovens/microwaves that are thrown out just because a single part is burnt up.

If only spare parts were widely available, I'm sure most would be easy to fix.

@M.A.R. Long underpants?

I didn't know you needed those in Iran.

You live high up or something?

@Cerberus I feel like it was years ago but there used to be a subculture of fix-it guys who would take any broken electronic appliance and fix it, like a TV, radio, washing machine or whatever. Nowadays it costs a couple hundred dollars for a repairman to -look- at a broken oven, and then hundreds more to come back to replace one shorted out burner (more if it is the (electronic) control board that has all the electronic timers and stuff.

Making it better to replace than to fix.

@Mitch Yeah, it is dire.

@M.A.R. "When a Turkish government official is trying to speak in Turkish, most of their phrases are in fact Persian, entire phrases, with only a preposition and a verb in Turkish" -in Turkey-? (we were talking about Azeri which is either in Iran or Azerbaijan, so I'm confused).

I think we have a so-called 'repair café', where you can bring your electronic stuff / appliances to fix it yourself, with help is necessary.

I might do it if I had a car.

@Cerberus I mean each kind of thing has its repair possibility now (for a cracked iPhone screen) or call a ... national company's accredited repair service

...but most are simply unpracticable?

expensive

I think the so-called repair café may be free.

cheaper to take a trip to there get the free fix, than fix it here.

Well, without a car, it's just too much of a hassle.

I suppose I could rent a bakfiets.

But that costs money.

Like €15 for three hours.

+2ºC and rain mixed with snow

It's called rough paper.

@Mitch No no, I mean in East Azerbaijan province, with the Turk ethnicity

@Færd what's "paper"?

Oh you mean the real-life imitation of Kindle

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad ip for hostname in answer, blacklisted username, blacklisted website in answer, potentially bad asn for hostname in answer, potentially bad ns for domain in answer, +1 more (285): "Application for Android" versus "application on Android" by lovejit on english.SE

Belarus Solidarity Foundation. I have transferred a small sum to help the protesters overthrow the illegal criminal Lukashenko.

@Robusto well it's a Russian romance from 1917, so that's at least that bit explained. "Those were the days" is just Paul McCartney's bastardization of it, from 1968.

@RegDwigнt Eso no explica la versión japonesa.

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at beginning of answer, potentially bad ns for domain in answer (34): Are "in accordance with" and "according to" interchangeable? by roger sins on english.SE

People still fix things in India. It's one of the "advantages" of cheap labour.

This includes things like motherboards, sometimes.

I'd have thought that was the case with other poor countries as well.

@M.A.R. OK now things are clearer. So it is the erosion of Turkic vocab in favor of Persian words, held together by Azeri grammar? I wouldn't worry -too- much. I'm pretty sure that Persian already has borrowed lots from Turkish (and Arabic). English is 90% hyperbolic statistics of French and Latin, and there's no lack of linguistic confidence by them.

I've heard so many laments for many European languages that they're being invaded by Anglicismes, Franglish, Denglish, Spanglish, etc etc

I don't know what to do about preserving vocab though.

@FaheemMitha Yes, there seems to be an erosion of do-it-yourself or maintenance culture in the US because it is so much less -trouble- (not just cost) to replace than to fix.

@Mitch I wasn't talking about DIY. I was talking about paying someone to fix stuff. Though in India it's usually not that much. Which is the point.

I thought DIY was a bit thing in North America, actually.

It is the knowledge difficulty created by the design of things, using super hitech things that are just not fixable to anyone except someone with an electrical engineering degree (and even then it takes a lot of perseverance)

@FaheemMitha I'm equating DIY with the opposite of paying someone to fix things. so that I thought we were talking about the same thing (with negatives involved).

@Mitch DIY and paying someone to fix stuff seem like rather different things to me.

@FaheemMitha DIY is a niche thing (publicized like everyone is doing it but really only a smaller and smaller number doing it)

One of them involves learning stuff. The other doesn't.

@Mitch If you say so.

@FaheemMitha I just established that I am using those two terms as opposites

@Mitch Ok.

@FaheemMitha Yeah, but there are limits to that. DIY works for fixing bikes, etc., to a point, but who wants to learn how to do tuckpointing on your own brick house? If a job is worth doing, the saying goes, it's worth doing well. And if it's worth doing well, it's worth hiring someone who's good at doing it. Which a first-timer is not likely to be.

@Robusto Yes, it's hard to be good at stuff one is not a specialist in. And it's not practical to become a specialist in everything.

Exactly.

Though if you are efficient and don't watch TV, it's possible to learn some things.

Youtube is great for learning how to fix things

Things like tiling and woodwork seem to be quite popular.

@FaheemMitha Of course it is. But how long will it take you to get good enough to do a yeoman job on your own house?

Practice on other people's houses first

But in some areas it's simply hard to find people who are good at all.

@Robusto Years.

Investing is a good example of this. Especially in India. Legal stuff and accounting too.

OTOH, finding someone to do good masonry work isn't difficult. Fortunately.

I put in two ceramic floors on my own in two houses during my house-owning lifetime, and they were more-or-less OK jobs, but when I went to sell my last house I hired pros to remodel the kitchen. And when I saw a real ceramic tile expert tackle that job I was humbled. There is such a big difference.

The kitchen remodeling cost me $45,000 but it sold the house before it was even listed. Imagine if I'd kept the floor as it was in my DIY effort. I might still be trying to sell it.

Also there's this: getting down on your knees and laying ceramic tile doesn't get easier as you get older.

Now, I do a lot of my own work on my bikes: replacing chains, minor adjustments, etc., but for really skill-based work I have a bike mechanic. Things like truing wheels, if you don't do them every day, are beyond your skill level. Period. You can do a sort-of OK job, but that is a place where you need to do a really good job.

@Robusto That's impressive.

@Robusto Wow, that's a lot of money. But I guess labor in North America is really expensive.

@FaheemMitha It's not a lot in the Boston area. My son just bought a starter home there for over $600K. Our 4-bedroom colonial in a nicer suburb sold for a good deal more than that four years ago.

@Robusto I believe you.

@Mitch Apparently no one does. The best they come up with is departments aimed at making 'native' neologisms for foreign vocab. And they don't seem to be doing a great job at that.

@Mitch I've often tried to console myself with this, but even if we take what you said into account, I guess the reason languages go extinct is when fewer people like to speak their mother tongue. If that's true, Azeri Turkish is well headed that way. A long way from extinction of course.

Did you know she also recorded a version in Farsi?

Why would I know that?

That's a different question.

And it's a good question, but first things first.

Did she do a lot of other languages, or just Farsi and English?

Oh I think German and French and Italian, like six or seven in total.

OK, that's less weird then.

And frankly I'm fine that she didn't try Japanese.

Singing in Japanese is hardly a DIY project.

Not for Paul McCartney anyway.

So why are we listening to Radiohead?

Because I had a good dream last night.

Those are rare lately, during this strained political climate.

Did you dream of your avatar?

That would have violated certain rules of space/time.

Dreams can do that.

Anyhoo I need to go down to the shops before the lessons start.

CYA on the other side.

Laterz.

@M.A.R. There have been constant movements in English to go back to using more Anglo-Saxon vocab instead of Romance. And that fizzles out immediately on reading any of it. Except maybe Tolkien. who seems to have chosen his germanically rooted alternatives to be palatable/non-archaic.

All the X-nglish versions I mentioned are nothing to worry about, it's just a smattering of vocab. The original isn't really threatened. I'd expect the same of Azeri wrt Persian.

The time to worry is when the kids don't speak Azeri at home or school.

@M.A.R. The French keep trying to remove anglicismes and it hardly ever works. And they have a very strongly followed academy.

@Mitch The chaotic mix it currently is works quite well, I think. Keeps things interesting.

@M.A.R. If there are newspapers and shop signs and radio and nightly news and the prestige language only spoken at school, then there's not going to be a problem. If it is only spoken at home, but by all generations... then it's not a problem. If it is only spoken by the parents but not the kids... it might be a problem, but still can be just fine.

It's be nice if people didn't consistently ignore Greek and Latin roots, though.

In English, that is.

@FaheemMitha What do you mean by ignore? Ignore that they are Latin/Greek? Ignore their original meaning? Something else?

@Mitch English words based on a Greek or Latin root often (usually) base their meaning on that root.

But then people alter the meaning willy-nilly, ignoring the root entirely.

Which is annoying. At least for me.

But I'm told I'm a prescriptivist. Whatever that means.

For example, people endow words with the meaning of excellent, which don't mean that at all. E.g. awesome, fabulous, and terrific.

There are probably others too. Fabulous is particularly irritating.

If I actually knew either Greek or Latin, I'm probably find it much more annoying.

Fortunately or unfortunately, I'm very ill-educated.

So, awesome means (or should mean) awe-inspiring. Fabulous of course means imaginary or possibly mythical. Terrific of course means terrifying.

@FaheemMitha It -is- annoying, but the large majority of English speakers are also not even poor second language Latin or ancient Greek speakers.

I know there are some Latin speakers here. Is there anyone here who knows Ancient Greek?

@FaheemMitha From all your examples it seems more that you are simply being pedantic or a literalist.

I guess there are a lot of Latin speakers (or readers) around, even now. For example, there is a Latin SE.

@Mitch I disagree.

@FaheemMitha I can't speak for @Cerberus's speech ability but he's the one Latin/Greek scholar on chat.

@Mitch I'm aware he knows Latin.

@FaheemMitha to say that 'terrific' should mean 'scary' when everybody uses it as 'really exciting' is being literalist or rather 'using the first entry in OED' which can often be the rarest of intentions.

Probably part of my perspective is that having done maths for many many years, it's affected my thinking. I like things to line up in a tidy way. At least somewhat.

@Mitch It used to mean that, not long ago. E.g. in 19th century novels. The current version is most likely a North American corruption. Plus, it's mostly slang usage, anyway.

Also, I'm historically minded, as people go. Or so I'm told. I don't like just ignoring heritage or history. And this sort of thing does both.

Also, my personal perception is that being respectful (or at least aware) of a language's history and origins, makes for better writing in general. Rather than just abusing the language to mean whatever you feel like making it mean.

@FaheemMitha That's like saying French is a corruption of Latin. Well... yeah... it really is, it is an awful terrible corruption of Latin. But calling it that does not good whatsoever. It's still French and not Latin, and you would be misunderstood if you spoke Latin to a French person.

@Mitch The roots are still recognizable, though. I'm not talking about dialects, I'm talking about divorcing a language from its origins.

@FaheemMitha Sure. But respect and abuse are a bit tendentious. Language change happens.

@Mitch Yes, I know language change happens.

That isn't my point.

But it is an implication of your point.

But I think I already said what my point is, so there is little served by repeating it.

@Mitch I don't see that.

ok

maybe 'implication' is the wrong choice. rather, language change contradicts your point.

You're actually not stating a point, just that you don't like these changes in meanings.

Which is perfectly understandable, especially in a technical (ie mathematical) way of thinking.

Hello.

What do you want to know about Greek?

Why do I have to use auta for ducks, but autes for cats?

Is this Greek?

Auta sounds like neuter plural, but autes would be genitive singular feminine.

nai, auta papia, autes gates (I don't have a Greek keyboard at work)

I thought ducks were feminine. maybe not

now you're just making up stuff

Oh, is this New Greek?

Yes, Greek, not Ancient Greek

Haha, classic

@MattE.Эллен Both are Greek.

Not how I usually eat porridge, but when in Moscow

@Cerberus and Old English is English

We were talking about Ancient Greek, thenceforth known as Greek.

@CowperKettle I hear that's how you get you nutrition faster.

:þ

The meaning of в ассортименте (в асс.) is of different kinds (assortment)

@CowperKettle whew

It's the commonest mistake found in Russian to English menu translations

LOL

@Cerberus anyway, I think Duolingo is trying to confuse me

I've never used it.

I think it's ok, but it does nothing to build my confidence. I think that can only be done face to face

for me

I've used Duolingo for a few things. What I've heard (and kinda agree with) is that Duolingo is really good at getting you to think you're learning a language.

I mean it's a great start but...

yeah. it tells me I've learnt X hundred words or whatever, but I can still barely string a sentence together

@CowperKettle heh, I saw another restaurant menu with the very same Lost in Translation

@Mitch there aren't any street signs in Turkish. Very rarely any shop names in Turkish (they're often rather boring here, just the guy's surname) No organized movements aimed at preserving the language, the kids of my generation were often taught Persian at least alongside Turkish. People still speak Turkish on the streets, I wouldn't be surprised if girls only speak Persian at home.

I'm aware of the movements to anglicize English and baguettize French, but Azeri Turkish is neither French nor English. There are very little active efforts at learning this dialect.

@M.A.R. uh, by "kids are often taught Persian" I mean before school, at home. There are no attempts to teach Turkish at school. Just the official language, Persian

@CowperKettle I'll pass on the ass.

Word of the evening: You can't outrun a Motorola

That's five words.

And sounds like an advertising slogan.

No, it's kind of criminal jargon. I had to google to get it.

@CowperKettle Oh, OK. I guess it means you can't outrun a cop's radio.

Interesting

The generic version ("you can't outrun a cop's radio") I've heard since I was a kid, when muscle cars were in vogue. I never heard the Motorola version till now.

But it makes sense.

The idea is that if a cop pulls you over for speeding (or other infraction), it doesn't matter how fast your car is. So you might as well not try to run.

Does Motorola still make radios? That seems a tad dated to me.

Motorola does indeed make police radios.

So maybe it's more current than I thought.

But for decades now I haven't been around people who are concerned with speeding away from police vehicles. So my argot may need updating.