English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

12:50 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in link text in body, potentially bad ns for domain in body (70): Comma before "yet"? by Just_A_Man on english.SE

Robusto

2:06 AM

@Cerberus: Here's another discussion of irony:

> At its simplest, in verbal irony, [irony] involves a discrepancy between what is said and what is really meant, as in its crude form, sarcasm; for the *figures of speech exploiting this discrepancy, see ANTIPHRASIS, LITOTES, MEIOSIS.

> The more sustained structural irony in literature involves the use of a naïve or deluded hero or *unreliable narrator, whose view of the world differs widely from the true circumstances recognized by the author and readers; literary irony thus flatters its readers’ intelligence at the expense of a character (or fictional narrator).
A similar sense of detached superiority is achieved by dramatic irony, in which the audience knows more about a character’s situation than the character does, foreseeing an outcome contrary to the character’s expectations, and thus ascribing a sharply different…

See, the key for me there is that "the audience knows more about a character's situation than the character does"; this is the crux of Greek tragedies. The audience came into the theater knowing all the myths, all the character's back stories. So the plays themselves didn't require a lot of exposition, or, really, any at all. So they knew without being told what lay in Oedipus's future (or past) without it being said.

And now you see why there is such a thing as "verbal irony," whether you wish to believe it exists as a distinct subclass of irony or not.

The above is taken from: Baldick, Chris. The Oxford Dictionary of Literary Terms (Oxford Quick Reference) (p. 174). OUP Oxford.

tchrist

3:48 AM

@Cerberus Here's something interesting about the children of per defectum (from that translation question I brought up), but this time in Portuguese. I know you can't read it quickly, but maybe Google Translate may help a little (though I haven't checked), and if you want to know anything specific please feel free to ask me directly.

They bring up a couple alternatives that might make more sense to people, including by omission and by pre-definition.

> Este último uso é muito frequente para indicar determinada característica ou acção que está de acordo com uma configuração predefinida, por ausência de acção ou de intervenção de um utilizador ou agente.

Which is what I took it for.

> Apesar de não haver registo na maioria dos dicionários consultados e de haver quem afirme que se trata de um decalque do inglês in default ou by default, não parece haver motivo sólido para condenar esta utilização da locução por defeito, mesmo porque é usada uma locução equivalente noutras línguas românicas como o francês (par défaut), o espanhol (por defecto) ou o catalão (per defecte).

I also don't know that it's actually a calque from English, as they themselves seem slightly dubious of.

@Robusto Can you make out what those are saying? Just curious.

CowperKettle

12:02 PM

multitran.com/…

I'm not sure how to translate the decisions of the Russian Govenment

Decrees? Orders? Resolutions?

I was given a text for proofreading and editing, and there it's "decrees" but I think "resolutions" is better-suited for the Russian word "постановления"

Multitran offers a wild range of options

a discussion of the same issue

This is one of the phrases where each translator is sure of his own option

CowperKettle

12:45 PM

Medical metal instruments or medical metallic instruments - which is better? I think metal instruments is.

Matt E. Эллен

1:08 PM

Metal medical instruments

Robusto

2:16 PM

@tchrist For the most part, yes. But when I come to something like acção I have to look it up. Also o appears to be a false friend—funnily enough, it's the short words that give the most trouble.

CowperKettle

Osteoporosis diagnostics (β-Cross laps, P1NP markers). -- Maybe Investigation for osteoporosis is better?

@MattE.Эллен Thank you!

Matt E. Эллен

you're welcome :)

tchrist

2:36 PM

@Robusto You eventually get used to the sound changes for things like the -ión words written -ão. The singular definite articles all get worn down to single letters, and they then combine promiscuously with many of the shorter prepositions. For me the use of the conjunction mesmo porque for even if or although, as though it were aunque in Spanish, is perhaps the bumpiest bit, since Spanish doesn't use mismo that way these days.

tchrist

2:50 PM

The Western Romance languages form a dialect continuum across which every neighbor understands their own immediate neighbors, but where those separated by greater distances eventually do not. If you walked slowly enough, you might not even notice the changes as you went.

Robusto

@tchrist Yes, mesmo is definitely a false friend there.

tchrist

Well, it's used in a different way there. It's also used in the ways you would recognize.

French uses même si.

For even if.

Or for although or aunque, depending on how you look at it.

Robusto

Yeah, there was another word that struck me as closer to French, but I can't think of it offhand.

tchrist

decalque?

noutras is one of those tricks. It looks like it would mean nuestras but really is a contraction of em + outras.

Robusto

@tchrist Yes.

It's kind of like reading a redacted text where the visible words don't make complete sense and you have to kind of figure out what's missing.

tchrist

3:04 PM

I brought it up because that haver reminded me of your graphic.

"to be there", "there to be"

But also for compound tenses, at least in Portugal. Brazil often uses ter for compound tenses.

Spanish very occasionally does so as well: he entendido is the compound tense, whereas tengo entendido has a slightly different connotation and is analysed differently.

"Tengo entendido que su esposa dejó la reunión el sábado por la mañana" > It's my understanding that...

Rather than a literal "I've understood" as you would have with the actual compound present perfect compound tense He entendido. Plus if the thing you've understood is feminine, you'd have to say Tengo entendida which you never do with haber perfects but do with ser passives. "Pero en verdad, no sé qué me haga, aunque la tengo entendida, porque hasta el día de hoy no sé qué cosa es...."

Robusto

@tchrist Well, it's the difference between a noun and a participle, isn't it?

tchrist

> Madre, yo te tengo entendida; que burlando...

Robusto

Entendido and entendida are not the same thing grammatically, though.

tchrist

@Robusto Well, it's a participle in all those cases. But whether it agrees with something is different. *La hierba fue encendida por un fósforo".

Robusto

Sí.

tchrist

3:18 PM

Adjectival participles agree, like casas desusadas.

Robusto

Well, I have to shower and get dressed for the ride. Interesting to have a look under the hood at Portuguese. Thanks. And see you later.

tchrist

hasta

tchrist

5:01 PM

Meyun, deeze Brit fonex doo sow kanfyooze mee.

What’s the IPA for this ‹R› you've put there? Does it mean ❶ the voiced postalveolar approximant [ɹ̠] like in English, ❷ the voiced uvular fricative [ʁ] like in French, or ❸ the voiced alveolar tap [ɾ] like in Scottish or Italian? Real French of course has ❹ [omɑʒ] — et pas ton ✻[omɑʁʒ], qui n’existe point, tu sais. 😜 — tchrist ♦ 3 mins ago

CowperKettle

> Information on the bringing into effect (termination) of this standard is published in the “National standards" directory. --- which is better - National Standards Directory or National Standards Index? The original Russian says указатель, which is kinda hazy although it does mean "index" in a way

tchrist

I'm of course jocularly pisstaking her(?) Wossy. :)

CowperKettle

tchrist

@CowperKettle It's the funny word order that most jumped out at me. Information on bringing this standard into effect (termination) is published in the National Standards Index would be how I might alter it. Maybe just realizing this standard? Or Index/Directory of National Standards?

You bring X into effect more often than you bring into effect X, which sounds funny.

But either way it's a long way of saying effecting in the sense of realization.

"Making it happen!" :)

CowperKettle

The Standard is a GOST Standard, and it's adopted, like a law, and brought into force, so I'll be wary of making it less close to the pompous original Russian phrase ))

I'm not sure about Index. Aren't indexes mainly present in books? So I think Directory might be nice.

Wow, this so-called Index is published annually in three huge volumes, and contains the texts of amendments in full.

Robusto

9:58 PM

Supreme Court votes unanimously in favor of plain English.

RegDwigнt

10:24 PM

@CowperKettle Все, что нужно знать о ГОСТ

(Кому мало, есть добавка.)

The Google translation of that is beyond fantastic, too.

Gigili

Bier ist ja eigentlich nur flüssiges Brot

RegDwigнt

> Fucking pump. In the USSR, there was the most cocksucker sausage, the most burial houses and the most vomit beer in the world.

This just in: The most advanced AI in the world hopes to match the shittiest human translator just in time for the third coming of Christ.

Gigili

This very chat is the only place on the whole internet that they don't talk about coronavirusoutbreakcovi2019

RegDwigнt

@Gigili around these parts, the saying goes "Sechs Bier sin aa e Mahlzeit. Unn da haschde no nix getrunke."

@Gigili you must have missed @Cerberus talking about nothing else for the last fifteen days straight.

Gigili

Oh Ö, what dialect is that? Bavarian?

RegDwigнt

10:36 PM

Mosel Franconian or whatever it's called.

Well, of course wiki spells it the French way. rolls eyes

Moselle Franconian language

Moselle Franconian (German Moselfränkisch) is a West Central German language, part of the Central Franconian language area, that includes Luxembourgish. They are spoken in the southern Rhineland and along the course of the Moselle, in the Siegerland in the German state of North Rhine-Westphalia, throughout western Rhineland-Palatinate and Saarland, in Luxembourg, in the south of the German-speaking Community of Belgium and in the neighbouring French département of Moselle (in Arrondissement of Boulay-Moselle). The Transylvanian Saxon dialect is spoken in the Transylvania region of Romania, as...

There's also Rhine Franconian. I don't really know the difference and so speak a mix of both.

Rhenish Franconian languages

Rhenish Franconian or Rhine Franconian (German: Rheinfränkisch ) is a dialect chain of West Central German. It comprises the varieties of German spoken across the western regions of the states of Saarland, Rhineland-Palatinate, northwest Baden-Wurttemberg, and Hesse in Germany. It is also spoken in northeast France, in the eastern part of the département of Moselle in the Lorraine region, and in the north-west part of Bas-Rhin in Alsace. To the north, it is bounded by the Sankt Goar line (or das–dat line) which separates it from Moselle Franconian; to the south, it is bounded by the Main line...

Gigili

What's it mean? Sechs Bier ............... Mahlzeit. ..................... Nix getrunke.

RegDwigнt

Six beers also equals a meal. And you haven't even had a drink at that point.

Sechs Bier sind auch eine Mahlzeit, und da hast Du noch nichts getrunken.

Gigili

Neat.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…