English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

1:07 AM

@tchrist The decline of this room began with the invasion of a couple of years ago, possibly led by Catija.

At least she was part of it.

I think she didn't work for SE yet.

tchrist

No, it was the Mos Eisley troublemakers and exiles.

There were others raising trouble here at the same time, and it was difficult to sort out what was going on.

Cerberus

I think it was partly her doing that disowned Rob and me and caused a whole lot of other trouble.

Robusto

@tchrist It wasn't difficult. I was in chat while the whole thing went down. My mistake was trying to protect our chatroom, because I failed to remember the operating principle of life in a bureaucracy: no good deed goes unpunished.

Cerberus

I respect her as a person, but I have always disagreed with her approach with respect to moderation and censorship.

Less is more.

tchrist

Nov 18 '15 at 16:33, by Robusto

Hey, @GraceNote, what's with all the Mos Eisley rejects suddenly showing up in our chat and flagging @RegDwigнt's posts?

Cerberus

1:10 AM

Haha.

tchrist

It turns out that that wasn't who was doing it.

Cerberus

I think Rob kicked Catija from the room, even.

tchrist

I believe the purp publicly admitted it, but perhaps not here.

Cerberus

Which was a bad idea for several reasons.

Meanwhile, I am listening to silly Columbian pop music.

Using funny words such as 'mamacita' and 'solita'.

Robusto

@Cerberus Using the adjectives "silly" and "pop" together in describing music is a redundancy.

Cerberus

1:12 AM

@Robusto Quite so.

Call it a figure of speech.

tchrist

@Cerberus They like their diminutives down there.

Cerberus

@tchrist Yeah, but why call a girl "mamacita"?

And what does the diminutive add to "sola"?

tchrist

Mommy!

Cerberus

Janet Baker - Dido & Aeneas - When I am laid in earth

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@Robusto Watching this instead, then.

@tchrist But why call a girl that?

tchrist

Imagine calling someone a girlie.

Robusto

1:14 AM

@Cerberus Noice.

tchrist

It comes off as "precious" to Spaniards.

Like baby-talk.

"solita" I have trouble giving you a one-word translation for.

It means alone in the feminine singular but friendly or all alone-y.

Cerberus

@tchrist But baby talk usually doesn't use the word 'mommy' for attractive girls?

@Robusto Ja.

tchrist

It's not my culture, and it's not the culture of Spain. Ask them.

Todos los cubanitos hacen lo mismito ahorita.

Cerberus

Ahorita?

tchrist

Isn't that friendly? :)

Ahora < a hora so now.

Cerberus

1:19 AM

@tchrist Friendly, OK. Your other characterisation, is that like an intensifier?

@tchrist Ah, I was thinking, surely it couldn't have anything to do with a hora!

tchrist

Ahorita means right now amongst the ito-sayers. Normally it's ahora mismo in Spain.

Timmy took his doggie to his cute little housie and gave his poochie a snackie.

That's what it sounds like, ok?

Not to them. To the rest of us.

To them, they're being sweet and friendly.

Robusto

6

tchrist

@Cerberus Try saying it as "ow awone".

Poor little thing.

These are affective suffixes.

They indicate affect.

Overmood.

Robusto

But are they effective suffixes? That's the real question.

tchrist

Depends on which personita says it to which otherito.

Cerberus

1:26 AM

@tchrist Well, in fact the diminutive is very common in Dutch.

@tchrist Any kind of affect?

@Robusto Indeed!

tchrist

@Cerberus Several, yes.

Think of the positive diminutives as meaning little or dear.

Cerberus

I suppose English can use words like momma for attractive women as well; but young ones?

Robusto

@Cerberus It depends.

tchrist

Things like -ito, -illo, -ín(o) are all positive diminutives, and which one you use says something about where you grew up.

Robusto

See, someone who is really good at English can say just about anything and carry it off. Others, not so much.

Cerberus

1:30 AM

@tchrist Noted.

Nathalie Stutzmann - Recording Bach aria "Erbarme dich"

►

Is she singing and directing at the same time?

tchrist

But things like -uelo or -zuelo are a bit negative .

Cerberus

She is so good.

tchrist

They're still diminutives though.

Cerberus

OK.

Robusto

@Cerberus That is possible. At least she doesn't have to hold an instrument.

tchrist

1:31 AM

And -ucho isn't bigger or smaller, just worse. It's always pejorative but hardly the worst.

Cerberus

(I knew she could sing and direct, but not simultaneously!)

@tchrist Muchacho?

What does that mean anyway?

tchrist

@Cerberus Listen muchachucho, you need to go talk to your mamma.

Muchacho is not apprehended as a suffixed form.

Robusto

@tchrist So what is the oppositive of a diminutive, like -on in words like huevon?

tchrist

Those are aumentatives.

Cerberus

I think -on or similar makes something bigger in various languages.

@tchrist Not augmentatives?

tchrist

1:34 AM

i'm riled

Really bad ones are -aco and -azo.

-azgo

Robusto

@Cerberus: She is conducting only in the loosest sense. Kinda like the "shoulder conducting" the harpsichordist conductors do in Bach.

Cerberus

@Robusto Ah, OK, yes, I didn't see much of what conductors usually do.

But there is something.

tchrist

books.google.com/…

Cerberus

I didn't know the shoulder thing had anything to do with conducting!

In Dutch, we say een beetje for a bit.

A pretty useless diminutive.

Of which we have many.

Just like German ein bißchen.

Or is it ein bisschen now.

Then again, English has a little bit...

tchrist

There are easily a dozen or a score of affective suffixes in Spanish.

They add shades of meaning.

If you try to think in terms of translations for them, you may fail to apprehend their "feel" to native speakers.

Cerberus

1:39 AM

I think bonita can mean something like pretty?

tchrist

Absolutely.

Cerberus

@tchrist Yes, selbsverständlich.

tchrist

So does lindo.

Cerberus

Also in Portuguese.

Does Portuguese have as many diminutives?

tchrist

That's pretty much true.

Robusto

1:40 AM

Is there a lindita as well?

tchrist

@Robusto Si se es cubanito.

Cerberus

My guess would be that German and Dutch are about equally large with their diminutives.

tchrist

Doubts.

The preferred Portuguese diminutive is -inho, spelled -iño in Galicia.

It's the go-to one, like -ito is for most but not all Spanish speakers.

Robusto

@Cerberus In some cases, the diminutive is no longer productive, as in Mädchen.

It's just the new normal.

Cerberus

There is Mädel, which I think may be from another diminutive?

In Dutch, we have meid and meisje, but I would never use the former.

tchrist

1:43 AM

spanish411.net/Spanish-Diminutives-Augmentatives.asp

Robusto

@Cerberus Probably. I only know that word from the steersman's aria in Wagner's Der Fliegende Holländer.

Cerberus

Hmm I do not rememer that aria.

Robusto

Fritz Wunderlich "The Steersman's Song" *Vinyl Wagner: The Flying Dutchman "Mit Gewitter und Sturm"

►

tchrist

Native Catalan speakers will transfer -ete, -eta to their Spanish.

It means you're from the east littoral.

Just as -ino means you're from the north or west and -illo the south.

And sometimes they get stuck as their own words.

So a camisita is not merely a little shirt: it's always a t-shirt.

Just like zapatillas aren't merely little shoes: they're always what I would call gym shoes or tennis shoes, and others trainers.

Cerberus

@Robusto Listening.

@tchrist Yeah, I think the same phaenomenon occurs in many languages.

tchrist

1:53 AM

> hotel (“hotel”) → hotelucho (“lousy hotel”)

> libro (book) → libraco (worthless/throwaway book)

Palabrotas are swear-words, curse-words, rude ones.

Do Dutch and German have augmentatives and pejoratives like these, or positive diminutives only?

Robusto

@tchrist Does one just know whether to use -ucho or -aco, or are there conventions?

tchrist

@Robusto You use whichever one feels right to you.

-ucho is an ugly little something.

-aco is big nasty something.

Robusto

Hmm.

BTW, this just came up in my YouTube feed:

AMAZING Coloratura sopranos of all times!

►

I wasn't going to listen, but ... I gave in to temptation.

tchrist

A pasota is a person who doesn't give a fuck.

Slacker, kinda. Not a word used in fondness.

Dumbo has orejotas.

> ‎cabrón (“asshole, bastard”) + ‎-azo → ‎cabronazo (“major asshole”)

Cerberus

@tchrist Hmm diminutives are generally neutral. But they can be used in a 'cute' way as in Spanish.

But when you call someone e.g. een presidentje, that is negative, or at best mocking in a friendly way.

tchrist

2:02 AM

> ‎plan (“plan”) + ‎-azo → ‎planazo (“great plan”)
‎gato (“cat”) + ‎-azo → ‎gatazo (“large cat”)
‎cuerpo (“body”) + ‎-azo → ‎cuerpazo (“sexy body”)

> ‎teléfono (“telephone”) + ‎-azo → ‎telefonazo (“a sudden ring of the telephone”)
‎ducha (“shower”) + ‎-azo → ‎duchazo (“a quick shower”)

Many are overloaded.

Cerberus

I don't think we have augmentatives.

@Robusto Is it worth it?

tchrist

Learners are instructed to avoid augmentatives because they have no feel for whether they're pejorative. Also they should avoid -uelo as a diminutive.

Robusto

@Cerberus I'm kinda blown away just now by it.

Cerberus

@Robusto It begins well.

@tchrist I certainly will!

tchrist

But the fixed words that aren't newly derived are usable.

Robusto

2:06 AM

@Cerberus It's like almost all of the greatest coloratura sopranos of the 20th century (except Maria Callas).

tchrist

You can always use pañuelo for example; it's just a handkerchief.

Cerberus

@Robusto Excellent.

tchrist

A muchachuelo isn't too terrible, a little boy.

But it's not nice the way a muchachito is probably somebody you know and like.

Cerberus

@tchrist Naturally.

tchrist

Yeah, those are like Mädchen.

A ladronzuelo is a small-time thief. But a pickpocket is a carterista because he's a cartera (billfold, wallet) professional.

Tontos are fools but tontuelos are dummies.

Cerberus

2:14 AM

@Robusto Now the Königin der Nacht is singing. I was expecting her from the beginning of the video!

Robusto

@Cerberus These are all just marvellous, aren't they?

Cerberus

Quite!

I am thinking of this Argentine singer.

tchrist

Calling someone a puto mariconazo may well draw physical violence.

Cerberus

I think she was trained for opera, but she sang popular music in Nazi Germany.

What is her name again?

I can't find her.

I think she had great coloratura.

Robusto

Are you sure she was Argentine? Not Peruvian?

Cerberus

2:18 AM

Rosita Serrano - La Paloma (1938)

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Voilà!

@Robusto Nein!

Robusto

@Cerberus Nice. I'll listen to that next.

Cerberus

Do you think she is using operatic techniques in this (much looser) pop song?

I'm going back to the coloratura video as well.

Robusto

I'll let you know anon.

It wouldn't surprise me. The '30s did mix operatic technique in pop songs.

Cerberus

Ah!

I see she was Chilean, not Argentine, stupid me.

Robusto

They are a mountain range apart.

Cerberus

2:22 AM

So they are.

I wonder whether @tchrist can understand the Spanish.

tchrist

@Cerberus Only if they aren't fascist.

Cerberus

@tchrist No, I think apolitical.

I generally don't listen to Nazi music.

Robusto

@Cerberus Definitely classically trained.

Cerberus

But the music by artists who should arguably have left Germany at the time can be quite beautiful.

tchrist

It's a dumb joke. Can you understand the French? Not in the Vichy Regime.

Cerberus

2:25 AM

@Robusto OK I thought so.

tchrist

Just a sec.

Cerberus

@tchrist Ah, the people, rather than the language.

tchrist

yes

Cerberus

I didn't think of that, she being Chilean.

(By the way, I wonder why English uses the nominative absolute. What other languages do this?)

Robusto

@Cerberus What are you talking about?

tchrist

2:28 AM

Yes, I can in general understand her.

I have to go deal with creatures for a while.

Cerberus

@Robusto She being Chilean is a nominative absolute.

@tchrist I'm sure that's not easy!

Have fun with the creatures.

I hope they be friendly ones.

Robusto

@Cerberus Hmm, never heard of that. Though I have certainly used it, me being a native speaker of English and all.

Cerberus

Bleh.

Robusto

Bleh?

Cerberus

An accusative absolute can indeed be heard in English as well, but style books generally advise against it!

Robusto

2:31 AM

@Cerberus You think I should have said "I being ..."? I beg to differ.

Not even sure why, it just sounds barbarous.

Cerberus

@Robusto In this case, it should simply have been being.

Robusto

Heh, except that's not how people talk.

Cerberus

The primary complement of the participle being present in the main clause (I).

@Robusto Surely you would not have me congregate with tois pollois!?

Robusto

I wouldn't expect you to, no.

Cerberus

Good!

Robusto

2:37 AM

BTW, for the record, I never read style books. I merely read.

When I find something I particularly like, I make it my own.

Cerberus

Good.

I do that too, on occasion.

But a good style book will give you more reasons to ponder a certain construction.

Robusto

Mar 18 '11 at 17:56, by Robusto

@jgbelacqua — "The young poet mimics; the mature poet plagiarizes." — T. S. Eliot

tchrist

2:55 AM

@Cerberus Encountered something hiding in the shrubbery I couldn't make out but which very much scared the pup, who was cowering and hiding and silent like I've never seen her. Then later we encountered two big ol' coons, and she wasn't the least bit afraid of them. So either her imagination or the neighborhood bobcat or mountain lion lurking along the path waiting for tender prey.

PROTIP: The lion does NOT sleep at night!

bobcat = lynx rufus
mountain lion = puma concolor

Cerberus

Or a snake?

tchrist

Whuh?

In January? At night?

Cerberus

I've no idea.

Too cold?

We are unlikely to get more than one or two freezing days this winter.

tchrist

Ectotherms would perish quickly in an athermal environment.

That's why the weathermen in south Florida were giving "watch out for falling iguanas" warnings last week.

I promise you that Colorado is colder at this latitude and altitude than Florida at theirs.

They can't even move right now. Have you ever seen a fly in winter?

Water doesn't have to change state for winter weather to kill, least of all reptiles and amphibians.

They are deep underground, sleeping.

But you don't see snakes at night here, even in summer, save perhaps a few rare July eves.

Lots of endotherms die of exposure here, including hominids.

Mitch

@Cerberus I think it is considered very rude catcallling now

Cerberus

3:02 AM

I don't know what that is, but it is in a very recent song.

tchrist

bot: explain catcalling

Mitch

here kitty kitty?

Cerberus

Juanes, Sebastián Yatra - Bonita

►

Here is the rubbish I was listening to, with the mamacita.

The text is generally dumb.

KannE

@RegDwigнt I'm pretty good at it...because I believe bullies should be cussed TF out. But if I'm not married to them... Maybe we could play the 50's: Y'all good men go take care of business, and I'll go check on a roast or something...

Mitch

@KannE mmm ... roast

Cerberus

4:15 AM

@tchrist Oh, my, I have realised something.

We say even in Dutch, "for a (short) while", which can be diminished as eventjes!

Dutch is just as crazy as Spanish ahorita.

Terran Swett

5:20 AM

There's a cartoon (in the old sense) featuring "the Ghost of Christmas Future Imperfect Conditional," who tells Scrooge of "what would have been going to happen, if you were not to have been going to change your ways."

Now I see a question containing the example sentence "I should have used to be going to the store."

I wonder what sort of complicated temporal expression would have used to be going to have been created next.

Let's see. There are lots of elements that can theoretically be repeated indefinitely.

I'm going to be going to be going to be...

I used to use to use to use to...

Either of those can also be done with the perfect.

I've been going to have been going to have been going to have been...

I have used to have used to have used to have...

I said "lots of elements" but that's only two.

Here's another one.

I am about to be about to be about to be...

"Timmy, have you started your homework yet?" "No, but I'm just about to have been starting to have used to be going to have been about to be going to have started doing it!"

One could conceivably make a "perfect perfect" construction, although such a construction is really never used.

"I have won a gold medal. In fact, I won it exactly five years ago, which means that I have had won a gold medal for five years."

SmokeDetector

10:24 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad ip for hostname in body, bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, blacklisted website in body, pattern-matching product name in body, +3 more (591): Where to Order Oasis Trim Keto? by user373032 on english.SE

RegDwigнt

2:37 PM

@KannE yeah. Then again, one man's bully is another man's sage.

As Wolf puts it, "if I'm curt with you it's because time is a factor. I think fast, I talk fast and I need you guys to act fast if you wanna get out of this."

@Robusto never a truer image was spoken.

For every lovely note that the audience hears, you have to play a thousand shitty notes that they don't.

And those thousand notes absolutely have to be shitty. For if they aren't, you're doing it wrong.

As Itzhak Perlman put it, "If you're practicing and it doesn't sound horrible, you're not practicing".

(And a thousand is really putting it generously. Any musician will know that the actual number is easily an order of magnitude higher.)

Just finished with the piano lessons for today. Third lesson with a six-year old boy. We played Twinkle Twinkle Little Star and you'd only know that we did from looking at the page and reading what the title said.

Sixteen months from now, he'll be playing Beethoven's Sonatina №37 from memory, with both hands.

Most students take twelve months. Some only take nine. This one I put at sixteen.

skullpatrol

2:53 PM

@RegDwigнt please pin it :-)

RegDwigнt

The parents are amazed even at sixteen. Seems blazing fast to them. But that's a shit ton of shitty notes.

@skullpatrol I did just that.

skullpatrol

thanks pal

RegDwigнt

It's hard to tell because the only difference is the dark outline.

skullpatrol

perhaps reformat it?

RegDwigнt

What, who, me. I can only reformat it locally by pressing Ctrl+Alt+I to go to the dev tools.

No wait, Ctrl+Shift+I it is.

My muscle memory is better than my actual memory.

Too many buttons here.

skullpatrol

2:57 PM

If you want to have this... then you have to have this...

RegDwigнt

Right anyway I must run down to the shops to get more vodka and tomatoes, and return all the empties.

@skullpatrol oh that's a neat idea. I'll check with Rob if he's on board with that.

Justin

4:31 PM

Small question... Is temporal deixis the same as transience of time?

skullpatrol

do you have any context?

Big question^

:-)

Deixis

In linguistics, deixis () refers to words and phrases, such as "me" or "here", that cannot be fully understood without additional contextual information—in this case, the identity of the speaker ("me") and the speaker's location ("here"). Words are deictic if their semantic meaning is fixed but their denoted meaning varies depending on time and/or place. Words or phrases that require contextual information to convey any meaning—for example, English pronouns—are deictic. Deixis is closely related to anaphora, as will be further explained below. Although this article deals primarily with deixis in...

> Temporal deixis (time deixis) concerns itself with the various times involved in and referred to in an utterance.

tchrist

5:48 PM

1

Q: Matrix clause or infinitival clause?

What is the function of “the doctor” in the following sentences? Is it a constituent of the matrix clause or of the infinitival clause? I wanted the doctor to examine my daughter. I persuaded the doctor to examine my daughter. I expected the doctor to examine my daughter. I told the doctor to e...