English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2019-07-19

« first day (3172 days earlier) ← previous day next day → last day (1733 days later) »

1:40 AM

What a very bad day at work taught me about building Stack Overflow’s community

Sara Chipps on July 18, 2019

“Caustic community for new users. There is no excuse for not being kind!” – 6 years coding

“It feels too scary and unaccessible for new developers” – 3 years coding

“People could be less brutal” – 6 years coding

“The attitude is not beginner friendly. Askers are expected to have done a lot of research before asking a question (re: both question format and content), even if they are completely new to the community or topic. Not everyone can understand or even know to look for documentation when they’re completely new to programming.” – 12 years coding experience …

Thanks, Feeds.

1 hour later…

2:54 AM

@Mitch That reminds me of the war of the closes post...

Something that is probably worth noting is that it is very hard for one person to debate point for point against a multiplicity of people who disagree.

2 hours later…

4:41 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with email in body, potentially bad keyword in body (62): How to obtain an Official IELTS/TOEFL proficiency certificate by bestpass on english.SE

2 hours later…

6:48 AM

@Mitch FFS

@Mitch Wait. I thought this was new.

2 hours later…

9:05 AM

@NVZ I have difficulty believing some of those claims, and most especially the ones regarding capitalization. Yes, THIS HAS LONG BEEN CONSIDERED SHOUTING, but that is true regardless of whether a person does or does not otherwise uses traditional capitalization, Q.E.D. Moreover, when you personally ask people why they do not capitalize, they usually just suggest that it is easier for them to write that way.

9:29 AM

@Robusto well his argument isn't exactly that writing like that doesn't make you come across as an imbecile. Rather his argument is that it very much does, but that that is a good thing. For it makes it really easy to tell an imbecile from a non-imbecile. It's useful.

I think what you're saying is very much in line with that.

10:30 AM

@Robusto I suppose you're not familiar with Tom Scott. :)

11:28 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive answer detected, toxic answer detected (160): My baby girl's name is Hoor but there is a problem by sowrov on english.SE

@Mitch Thanks for that good read.

11:49 AM

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ It's not new? I thought it was dated... yesterday? Time goes by so fast these days.

@NVZ Yeah. It was like get out of my head.

But then that's only for some instances. Sometimes people can be real dicks, as opposed to inadvertent ones.

3 hours later…

2:43 PM

> They could say it in the most neutral possible way, but no matter how you approach it, a dozen people pointing out your errors feels terrible.

I agree.

What is more, even a single (experienced) user's criticism, however politely phrased, will still make people feel bad about themselves.

3:01 PM

@Cerberus Perhaps, but constructive criticism is sometimes necessary.

3:35 PM

@Tonepoet Yes.

4:12 PM

@Cerberus yeah, that's her point. And it translates as being personally attacked.

that is, not only does it feel terrible (shame and guilt for being wrong), but also that it something about the other person, that something is wrong with them, that they are being intentionally aggressive and frankly evil.

even when they are just being informative.

(I mean sometimes people really are being jerks)

I think I've said that before

It's why there's the protocol to never say 'no' to the Queen of England. Royalty is very thin skinned.

We're all a squad of apes trailing through the jungle. Or rather a gang of ten year olds making up a game.

OMG. I remember. that one guy. what a dick.

Public Service Announcement: 50 years ago tomorrow, July 20, 1969, at 20:17 UTC, Apollo landed on the moon.

@Mitch Well, one is personally criticised, so that only makes sense.

@Mitch I wouldn't say informative: criticising.

4:41 PM

@Cerberus The whole point is that on rereading the author realized that the others weren't attacking her, or rather the -great- emotional color on their part just wasn't there at all.

@Mitch Yes.

Nevertheless, what those people did was criticising here, not merely informing her.

You seem to be taking the individual words a bit too seriously here. I was using 'inform' to emphasize that what the answerers were saying to her was , what she later realized, was nowhere near as strong as what she first appeared.

Sure.

My point was that even polite criticism is still not always advisable.

Oh. OK. That's new (to this convo). In what way? (I don't disagree, I'm just wondering what you're thinking of specifically)

2 hours later…

6:33 PM

At this stage we also came to a conclustion that we would need an additional study to determine the working range.

"To a conclusion" vs. "to the conclusion"

Both seem okay

But since the conclusion is described, it must be "the", mustn't it?

Must? Probably not

34 secs ago, by CowperKettle

Both seem okay

@Mitch Oh, so it was new!

7:09 PM

@CowperKettle But the usual way to say it is 'the'.

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ It did seem weird that it was new. I would have thought this would have been an SE observation a long long time ago. But yes. the author only published it yesterday and the experience was in the last week, but she'd been at SE for at least a year and had used SE for ~ 10 years.

7:53 PM

@Mitch sometimes?

@Mitch kinda defeats the purpose, doesn't it. They'd be much thicker skinned if they did hear a no occasionally. Or indeed all the time.

Lol @ "Not everyone can understand or even know to look for documentation when they’re completely new to programming.”

That is precisely when you know to look for documentation. What a foolish thing to say.

@Cerberus anyone scared of polite criticism has no business being on the Internet at all. This here place is specifically dedicated to not just criticising you politely, but crushing your heart and shitting on your soul and driving you to suicide. And everyone that's on the Internet knows that for a fact, because that's what they themselves do to others all the time.

You will be criticised the moment you post a single word anywhere at all.

And she knows it full well, as proved by the fact that she sees criticism even where there is none. She's been conditioned to do that. So she's been on the Internet for a while and knows how it works.

Some of the comments on the post were interesting. "[O]n average, humans need about 6 compliments or positive feedback to be able to handle a negative feedback/criticism".

And then a whole bunch of suggestions where people seemed to be unaware that those exact suggestions had first been made ten years ago, and were either dismissed for good reasons, or indeed actually implemented.

People will comment on how to improve something without knowing how it actually works. Also a good lesson from the Internet.

8:39 PM

@RegDwigнt IKR. I don't get senior people. If you're gonna sugar coat everything and treat everyone like kings, then why the hell are you complaining about inept youth

@RegDwigнt Lesson 3: Never admit you're wrong on the internet. Be entitled, feel entitled and talk entitled. Ly.

Remembers the Entitled Lee scenes from Enter the Dragon

*sugarcoat.

9:03 PM

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ license revoked

9:19 PM

@Cerberus This is why the Japanese never criticize or even say "no" to anything. But if you pay attention, they never quite say "yes" either. はい (hai), which gets translated as "yes" frequently, actually means only that they hear what you're saying. It's really an aizuchi (相槌) which is an interjection used to indicate that a person is paying attention.

Anyway, I've been on the SE network for over ten years now and have encountered all kinds of rudeness—even to this day—and I just chalk it off to ordinary Web unpleasantness, which I'd have to be blind not to see. I'm unwilling to make that trade.

What we need on the Internet is an interjection used to indicate that we're not paying attention.

lol

^that?

Close I guess.

:-)

It's really quite amazing that anyone would ask anyone anything on the Internet at this point. Post a question on SE, willing to believe absolutely anything a random stranger replies.

It actually explains quite well why people who've been on a site for a long time start doing janitorial tasks and stop posting questions.

If they have a serious question, they'll know whom to ask directly, and how to get a hold of that person.

9:34 PM

true dat

@RegDwigнt Latin.SE is a much friendlier place, for example.

Not the entire Internet needs to be hostile.

@Robusto Good to know!

Yes, not every bit of a landfill is equally smelly.

But it's still a landfill.

In Africa, there is a place where they say only "not yet", which can be quite confusing to foreigners, who will ask again later, which will irk or confuse the natives.

I say "maybe later" or "I'll put it on my todo list" many times a day.

@RegDwigнt people filling in their extra time

9:38 PM

Wasting their extra time, really. The landfill is all waste.

it doesn't have to be quality time

And so it never is.

Path of least resistance. Conservation of energy.

yup

@Cerberus the thing about Sara's post is that nobody was hostile at all and she wasn't even on the Internet.

That's the scary thing about it.

They say hell is other people. But maybe hell is just all yourself. And everyone else is actually quite chill.

Well in your case we're actually 100% sure that you're hell.

I'm not Hell.

I'm just in Hell.

And do you think you people might be part of that, hmm?

9:44 PM

hell's angel?

Thanks.

:-)

@Cerberus hell if I know.

@RegDwigнt On the other hand, it is never fun, being criticised, and it gets worse when it's strangers who do it.

So criticism should ideally be measured on a gold platter.

Hmm is that the proper expression?

@Cerberus yes and yes, but that's the point of the post. It was not strangers. It was close colleagues she respected and admired.

9:46 PM

Imagine how bad it is when it comes from strangers.

Especially those with authority, like Ashworth.

Well yes. But it's all in you. If you don't want people to tell you that you suck, don't be online.

And again, what I mean by that is they probably won't even tell you that you suck. But you will take it to mean that.

No.

You will post a photo on Instagram and if not everybody instantly upvotes it, you will feel devalued.

It drives people actually insane.

It is better to create a welcoming atmosphaere, if at all possible.

Yes, but if I say "welcome" and you think I mean it in a passive-aggressive way, what then.

I cannot be more welcoming than actually welcoming you.

You have to meet me halfway.

If I post a question on ELU right now, and then see that 100 people viewed it, but only 5 upvoted it, I will say I feel unwelcome.

But that's not a problem with ELU. That's a problem with myself.

9:52 PM

yeah, it's a vicious cycle; i think that's part of what keeps us coming back!

If your coworkers say to you that approach X has downside Y, and they do it in a welcoming way, and they had been nice and friendly to you for a whole year before that, what right in the world do you have to be offended.

Noöne's talking about "offended".

That is a meaningless word from the Middle Ages.

Well whatever word you want to pick. I don't care much for semantics.

You don't care about meaning?

If anything I'm using that word precisely because it's meaningless. It's a vessel.

9:55 PM

I am confused.

You always are.

Welcome to ELU chat!

syntax?

no, thanks.

I've had some earlier today.

Criticism is criticism, and it is only expected that people should feel unwelcome by it.

Sometimes criticism is necessary.

Of course. Especially in a working environment. Where people are actually paid money.

9:56 PM

When it isn't truly necessary, it is best swallowed in the face of new users.

And what Ashworth does is, in my opinion, the opposite.

He just wants to make things better.

I don't know what Ashworth does. I've not been noticing.

But he sours the atmosphaere.

To many new questions, or even answers, he will post something critical.

Like, you haven't done enough research, your approach is wrong, it's off topic, etc.

What I do notice is when I simply close a question with no explanation, nobody ever takes offense. If I close it leaving a welcoming comment, occasionaly people will take offense and call me rude.

No good deed goes unpunished.

Is your comment critical of the question?

Not at all.

Indeed it provides an answer and explains the closure.

9:59 PM

Explaining a closure is by definition critical.

Lol.

Yeah.

You go girl.

Exactly my point.

"I'm closing your question" is criticism, no matter how much honey you line it with.

The question is already closed at that point.

So only do that when it's really necessary.

Any honey on top of that is extra honey.

If you don't like honey, that's not my problem. You can't call me rude for giving you free honey.

10:00 PM

I'm not talking about being rude.

And neither am I. Because I'm not being rude.

I'm talking about people being too quick to criticise others, especially new users, on many SE sites.

Yes I understand.

I am talking about something different.

I'm not, I think.

I should hope you're not talking about something different from what you're talking about.

10:02 PM

I'm trying to save Latin from that fate.

There is no saving Latin.

@RegDwigнt Indeed.

So anyway. I guess the executive summary is this. If you're being nice but getting perceived as rude, or being genuinely helpful but being perceived as unhelpful, then sooner or later you'll come to the conclusion, fuck, why not just cut out the middleman and just be rude and unhelpful at all times.

That way everyone will be on the same page. And you'll save yourself all kinds of extra legwork.

I strongly believe that is what's happening on the Internet.

Why are we executing some Mary?

We're executing not one but the sum of them all.

We'll come to the Sallies and Josephines in due time.

10:05 PM

Oh, you don't like my pronunciation.

Incidentally, the Autohotkey fora are also usually quite welcoming.

Not only do I not like your pronunciation, I expressly criticize it for being unhelpful.

Rude.

NOU

The SWRs on Autohotkey are questions about cheating in games.

But they are just moved to the gaming subforum, and everybody's happy.

@Cerberus That is so fucking pathetic.

That is like seven levels of pathetic cubed.

10:07 PM

I have long advocated Offtopic.SE, where anyone could migrate questions to.

Yeah.

@RegDwigнt Yes. But who cares?

And where nobody would ever answer any question ever.

That doesn't matter.

@Cerberus I don't know. Maybe Autohotkey does. Maybe they want more people to join.

Maybe not.

I do not know.

10:08 PM

We don't care about the gaming questions.

Rude.

They come.

And we're fine with them.

They don't pollute the interesting questions.

And there are enough people who like to answer them.

The interesting questions will dry out eventually.

I think (I never go to that subforum).

The games will never cease.

10:09 PM

They won't dry out!

The forum is probably older than SE.

I see SO was launched in 2008.

Lies. Nothing is older than SE.

I remember reading Autohotkey forum posts from 2001.

Lies. Reading did not exist in 2001.

It was invented by Trump on Twitter.

Perhaps I misremember.

Could be Auto It posts.

That is not a lie for once. Congratulations!

You've reached level two.

If only you had used Autohotkey, you could've reached it faster.

10:13 PM

user image

Look, forum posts from 2004.

Earlier today someone commented on my "Learn Russian in 1 minute" video saying that it was stupid. And they said it in Russian.

And maybe there was an older version of the forum that didn't survive.

It turns out quite a lovely little experiment, that video.

@RegDwigнt That would seem self-contradictory.

I know, right. There is a surprising amount of people that apparently expect to actually be able to learn Russian in 1 minute.

And a surprising amount of those people are Russian.

It is fucking hilarious, is what it is.

The kind of people you meet on the Internet, you wouldn't want to meet them in real life.

10:16 PM

Hmm.

@Cerberus I replied back, in English, "stupid or not, but it seems to work. Your Russian is quite on par with that of a native speaker. Congratulations!"

Go criticise them.

@RegDwigнt Good.

Too much work. You're already here. I'll criticize you.

Did he or she reply?

They did.

But I never read replies on the Internet.

I told you before.

I will say my thing and then never come back.

Learned it on Reddit. The hard way.

But I'm thankful that I did.

10:17 PM

Hmm.

Whenever you come to some site and see a red number next to your inbox, just click it once, then click again, and it will disappear. And then you can proceed with doing whatever you actually wanted to do. With a total peace of mind.

Or you can just not click it.

Like on Facebook.

Yeah.

But that is more difficult for many people.

It is red for a reason.

They want you to click on it.

So I do them the favor. Indeed I do them the favor twice over. And it immediately disappears.

user image

I don't click it.

I don't even know what it means.

Mine was at like 407 at one point.

But occasionally it resets all by itself, or I click somewhere else and it registers wrong.

10:30 PM

Oh, I'm sure I never saw any of the earlier things either.

Whatever. Facebook is full of bugs.

Yes.

I did see this funny post, when I logged in:

user image

My friend is a teacher.

> You know you've chosen the right field if this picture is part of the curriculum in first grade (12 year olds).

I can read Dutch.

I know you do.

Plaatje is Russian for dress.

10:33 PM

How odd.

Actually that's a good question. What's the PIE root.

Flat.

= Русский = === Морфологические и синтаксические свойства === пла́-тье Существительное, неодушевлённое, средний род, 2-е склонение (тип склонения 6*a(2) по классификации А. А. Зализняка). Корень: -платьj-; окончание: -е [Тихонов, 1996]. === Произношение === МФА: ед. ч. [ˈpɫatʲɪ̯ə], мн. ч. [ˈpɫatʲɪ̯ə] === Семантические свойства === ==== Значение ==== женская цельная одежда, носимая поверх белья и, как правило, закрывающая туловище, включая плечи, а также бёдра ◆ Повседневное платье. Модное платье. Открытое платье. ◆ Я поднял глаза: на крыше хаты моей стояла девушка в полосатом п...

| Происходит от др.-русск. платиѥ «одежда»; ср.: укр. пла́ття, белор. пла́цце, др.-польск. рłасiе «лоскут»; стар. собир. существительное от плат.

Well that's not too helpful.

A plaat is a flat and solid objects, as in building materials or whatever.

Plat is flat.

I guess.

10:34 PM

So they're probably all related.

And Dutch vlak is German flach.

Might also be related?

On MuseScore there's that spam bot that will post ads for women's dresses.

Hmm ahh.

Nicely done, with photos and all. Obviously cheap dresses of Chinese make if you look closely.

But that's not the point.

The point is the ads are always in German.

In Google-Translated German.

I have no idea what the fuck is happening.

To evade anti-spam bots?

There's like three people on that site that speak German at all. That includes myself.

10:36 PM

How many heads each?

You might get better results spamming in French or Italian.

Or Russian, for that matter. Lots of Russian users.

The mother company is Russian.

And nobody can detect spam in Russian because all Russian looks like spam.

Hmm.

Or they could use Chinese like conventional, traditional spam.

Last night I actually posted something in German. The very first comment mere minutes later was "WTF language is that".

That is how much success you will get with your Chinese dresses in German.

Hah.

10:57 PM

@Færd What's "you" in Persian?

Or is the word never used?

11:38 PM

So, @Cerberus, it came to me today why you adhere to some language rules and not others. It's simplify because you view language the way an aesthete views the world, enjoying certain parts and ignoring others.

@RegDwigнt I never wore Chinese dresses in Germany. I must have left them all at home, now that I think of it. Probably a happy coincidence.

@Cerberus Google Translate says it's شما

But there's no vocalization with it, so just say "squiggle" and they'll understand what you mean.

« first day (3172 days earlier) ← previous day next day → last day (1733 days later) »

Transcript for

Jul '1919

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…

Not for the faint of heart or those easily triggered by Englis...

phrase-requests pronunciation single-word-requests synonyms

join this room
about this room

00:00

06:00

12:00

18:00

all times are UTC

site design / logo © 2024 Stack Exchange Inc; legal

mobile