Toward the Wiki Society

> Wikipedia shows one version of an adaptable ideal: The people who are affected by decisions ought to be the ones making them.

The democratic power over the rules of the game is what sets apart Wikipedia from the SE model.

> Wikipedians are firmly insistent that the site is not a “democracy,” because it doesn’t defer to “majority rule” and instead uses a consensus process. I don’t agree with them. They’re a democracy, whether they like the term or not. Democracy is commonly misunderstood as mob rule, but it isn’t. Democracy is about participation in power, and Wikipedia’s experiment is the closest thing we have to a complete open-participation model.

> It is a little outpost of communism in the brutal capitalistic world of Silicon Valley: Nobody owns it, everybody is equal, there is no money exchanged, advertising is banned, and people do things because they like doing them, rather than because they have to or because they’re paid for it. These values are completely absent from the other major information channels on the internet. But they’re good values. They should spread. A world run like Wikipedia would be a wonderful world indeed.

That, even to me, sounds like wishful thinking. But I can dream, can't I.

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted username, blacklisted website in answer, link at end of answer (244): Is 'stakehold' (used as a noun) an acceptable word, even though no major dictionary lists it? by andymark on english.SE

@Færd I cannot trust random guys on the internet, no matter how vocal, to know how to run a site as good as Jeff Atwood.

He made some weird decisions. Some stupid decisions, and some decisions you'd disagree with if you come by, but nothing replaces experience with previous now-failed info exchange services and trying to avoid the mistakes they made

In fact, the consensus on meta.SO seems that SO starting getting flooded by crap and hence bitter curators creating the 'unwelcoming' environment as soon as it started deviating from Atwood's core principles on running the site.

@skillpatrol hot water at convenience stores is produced by machine, so it's available almost all times.

i see

only food which is produced by human labors would have time limit

don't you have a refrigerator?

refrigerators can only stock icy food

is that a "yes"?

no, icy food can't effectively resolve hunger.

like 24-hour supermarkets are also everywhere, but they don't sell cooked food, which is the only food which can effectively resolve hunger.

yup, you need it cooked; as you mentioned

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ You missed the point on so many levels I'm at a loss where to start.

First off, while some percentage of the data on Wikipedia may be authored by totally random guys, the governance of the site is far from random. You can read the article again, or take a look at this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia#Governance.

Second, even if somebody else made the perfectest decisions for me and provided me with the bestest opportunities to follow those decisions, I wouldn't consider myself an accomplished human being. Freedom is among the highest values for individuals and societies to strive towards.

It's never absolute or complete. It's hard, or impossible, to rigorously define. It's not black-and-white. It cannot be achieved overnight. It's more like a process; a path, or a compass. Whatever it is, it should figure high in the balancing of things, but unfortunately it's totally absent from your argument. Think of a real-world government modeled on an SE-like example: it would be near dictatorial.

Third, the article is more a polemic against huge tech companies that wield tremendous influence over society at large, than a criticism of a comparatively small platform like SE. SE would definitely rank higher than FB or Google on the democratic scale, but nowhere near Wikipedia in this regard. The underlying governance principles, to the extent that are comparable, are radically different.

SE is a dictatorship

So, yeah, SE was not a focal point, and I just added the comment because I realized I was using an SE chat and wanted to make a (deficient) comparison in passing. I don't believe a successful democratically-governed Q&A site is an impossibility, and I would like to see it happen, but I would leave it to other, more relevant people to hash out. I'm mostly a pastime chat user here.

BTW Wikipedia has its fair share of shortages too, many of which reflections of those in the non-virtual world, "but those problems are for the community itself to work out".

In hindsight, I did come from meta.SE's chat and the same remarks would have implied different things there

@Færd That comparison falls short for online societies

On SO, there's a bunch that have been around, know how the site works, and know certain things will help it and certain things won't by experience

There's a much bigger number of users that have no interest other than to get tomorrow's homework assignment done

They won't care or know what's good for the site, so what I'm saying is they shouldn't have a say in it.

this not a site for "children"

Where did I say experience must be discarded.

Didn't say you did, stop being on the offensive

I'm explaining what I meant earlier, and that it doesn't contradict with chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/50339074#50339074

That's your argument behind "that comparison falls short..".

\o @JohanLarsson

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ I don't get that, but I must get my afternoon sleep. Talk to you later.

TTYAYGSS

o/

\o

MCA

:-)

\o_

I'm a tai chi master

indeed

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ Atwood was rather a bully himself.

He caused one of our most beloved moderators to leave the site, amongst other things, with his unwarranted vitriol.

Well bullying wasn't a core principle. At least not one he talked about

@Cerberus Oh I vaguely remember that

Not that I was there when it happened

Today I rediscovered yogurt goes great with sweet things

Still not sure about sweet yogurt though

Bullys always seem to prosper on the internet

::cough:: t r u m p ::cough::

@skillpatrol You're expecting punitive action on the bullies but I don't recall bullies in real life get much of a punishment most of the time either

Nah, just an observation.

Well he doesn't seem much of a bully to me, except in an argument with someone

He's trying to bully China.

He's a manipulator, different modus operandi

In that sense, every US president in the past 40 years is a bully because they've been pretty much bullying us around

And most of the politicians too, I guess.

When the two biggest economies in the world have a trade war; everybody suffers.

Like Einstein once said, world war 4 will be fought with sticks and stones.

Haha, right.

Well, IMO no greedy asshole is too dumb to realize anymore that the modern way of conquering the world is shaking hands with a Silicon Valley giant, but I've been wrong before.

you do have a point there

so world war 4 could be be fought with telephone line internet connections :-)

Borders are still pretty strong, but borders around ideas are beginning to fade. There's still different languages, separating some ideas like garden walls separating gardens, but the percentage of world population completely ignorant of the opposing opinions is shrinking. Combine that with advisers that foresee the future instead of the front of their nose like the leader they're advising, and the only way to win conflicts seems to be winning minds

There's still some love for good old-fashioned bloodshed though

True that.

@Cerberus Who was that?

there is a mosquito disturbing me in my room again.

animals and humans in this world all need to compete for selves and their concerned ones wellbeing. I am not sure if plants do that.

when I was outside, people smoke everywhere to affect the air quality around me.

when I am indoors, mosquitoes come to itch me.

If I am offered a quantity of labor services, I can have far more time to use in intellectual works.

animals compete for food and space directly while humans also compete for them, but indirectly, by competing for money.

now I have annihilated the mosquito, hoping to get some peace.

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in answer, mostly dots in answer (123): what do you call the person who passes the trophies to the prize giver/presenter? by Amrit on english.SE

"annihilated the mosquito" You probably ARE captain of a Star Wars spaceship @Captain

@Færd Kosmonaut.

Our only linguist moderator.

And it wasn't even a conflict between Atwood and Kosmo; it was just Atwood's horrible behaviour towards the whole site.

Ooo.

I'm sorry for bringing up old sad memories @Cerb

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ Don't worry.

@Cerberus That's regrettable.

hunger trouble

@Færd Quite.

food is never too much

so hot