English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2011-02-04

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12:23 AM

Hola.

I can't believe people are accepting this answer...

2

Q: She left me for another woman, or she left me for a woman?

Assuming a male speaker who is referring to an ex-partner, which of the following is more correct? She left me for another woman She left me for a woman The phrase "She left me for another man" has always made sense to me because the omission of "another" would suggest that she did not have...

meaning sentence-patterns gender

@Andrew Flanagan says "She left me for a woman" actually means "she left me for another man." This is one case where democracy is idiotic.

12:40 AM

@Robusto I think your answer is better, but not quite right. I think there is a reasonable interpretation for a man to say "she left me for another woman"... if she already had women in her past

There is room for discussion on that point, but AF's assertion is simply not true.

i downvoted, why didn't you? ;-)

Look again.

Imagine "she left me for yet another woman"

A serial Lesbian?

Or seriously (and serially) bi.

I upvoted yours, too.

12:47 AM

i'm so confused now

i'm just going to duck out and not participate anymore in that question

Well, thanks for the drive-by. :P

So what did happen to ElendilTheTall?

10 hours later…

10:31 AM

I didn't know that "ice possible" is correct grammar.

It depends on context.

Use it in a sentence.

I can't think of a context where it would work.

Steve Melnikoff

10:49 AM

When used on road signs, the word "is" is implied, i.e.: "Ice [is] possible".

OH, road signs ... sure

Steve Melnikoff

Similar constructions are used in newspaper headlines, e.g. "Rain expected tomorrow".

You see omission of syntax there all the time.

lol, it's early and I'm just getting my first coffee.

I thought you were referring to part of a larger sentence.

I'm not sure what the OP is actually referring to.

But I am sure that on a road sign, I would take "Ice possible" or even just "Ice" over "Please pay attention, as there might be some ice ahead, thank you!" every time.

2

The OP is asking for proper grammar, without to define the context.

10:55 AM

Yeah, that's the thing...

Steve Melnikoff

(BTW, it's nice to meet you all. I haven't used this nifty chat feature before :-) )

Yeah, now that a few people are hanging out here on a regular basis, it's quite some fun.

Maybe I use the word grammar with the wrong meaning, but I think that grammar includes also syntax.

Of course it does.

Sure it does.

But "Train approaching" can be proper grammar.

10:57 AM

Therefore, ice possible is not syntactically correct, general speaking.

I used "omission of syntax" to express that elements were removed from the sentence.

Wrong!

lol

Again, we should ask the OP for clarification.

See?

Capisce?

Omission of syntax is not necessarily wrong.

Omission of syntax? Not necessarily wrong!

Just means you left something out.

That's true, but generally speaking is not necessary correct. :-)

I'm not quite sure that it's syntax that you left out.

The syntax is still there.

11:00 AM

If meaning is clear, you've done your job. "Ice possible" on a bridge sign is easily understood.

I have asked the OP about context.

I'm using it in the sense of *omission of syntactic elements"

Yeah, yeah, I was just nitpicking.

In Italian, we keep to omit the subject in many sentences, but I am not sure that is possible in English.

Same with Spanish, Russian, German, and in fact even English.

11:02 AM

Not true with German.

Though in English and German it's casual and informal.

I can say lascia la moglie per un'altra ([he] leaves his wife for another woman), but I cannot probably do it in English.

I was getting out of a car in Frankfurt on the traffic side, and my friend said Vorsicht!

While in Russian and Spanish it's formal.

Obacht would work, too.

Leb' wohl!

11:04 AM

Yeah, farewell.

See also that in Italian I didn't say donna (woman), but that is what most people would understand.

Driving: Links oder rechts? ... "Nö ...gerade aus."

If I would mean for another cow, I should say cow.

@kiamlaluno: well, not in formal English, but I would guess that I could say "What a jerk! Leaves his wife for another woman!" in casual conversation.

Vorsicht, Eis!

Kein Winterdienst!

Benutzung auf eigene Gefahr!

Or on a hotel sign: Bitte nicht stören

11:08 AM

That is another difference between Italian and English; not writing the subject is accepted also in formal Italian (if there is such thing).

Yep, that's what I'm saying the whole time.

See also my comment here:

5

Q: Why does English need an article before any noun?

In my native language, we can say: I have dog Because I don't want to say a dog (one dog, how many dogs) or the dog (that dog, the listener don't care which dog).

grammar articles grammatical-number

I remember that one. I think I left a comment there as well.

Just noticed it.

Another difference is that in Italian I can write a sentence without to write a personal pronoun/possessive adjective.

It would be like writing user can forget [his/her] own name.

Is the question about the proper grammar too open?

Let's give the OP a chance to clarify.

11:15 AM

Gotta get ready for work. Later.

CU.

I still disagree on defining a word "fairly useless" when four meanings have been reported for it.

Xblast time!

Go blast, go! :-)

I wonder if the same game for iPod would be called iBlast. :-)

12:15 PM

That name is taken.

12:31 PM

I didn't know there was "Fruit Ninja" for Windows Mobile. :-)

Does WP7 stay for "Windows Portable 7"?

I should have watched carefully; it's Windows Phone 7. :-)

12:50 PM

This has just crossed my mind:

0

Q: Should we migrate "How to pronounce X" questions to EL&U?

Are pronunciation questions on-topic on SO? They certainly are on English Language and Usage, which is starting to get questions that have been previously asked on SO. 6 hours ago on EL&U: How to pronounce LINQ? 9½ months ago on SO: How to pronounce LINQ 6 hours ago on EL&U: How to pron...

discussion migration off-topic

That is a good question.

They seem on-topic, to me; I would not like to see too much questions like that, though.

After all, there is a general rule about the pronunciation of such words.

it sounds like an English word, then pronounce it like a word.

I keep to write "pronunciate" instead of "pronounce". :-)

I up voted your question.

1:13 PM

Is it a coincidence, if the user James Wood uses the same icon used by EldelnTheTall?

I can't find a user called "James Wood". Is he unregistered? Do you have the user ID?

Ah. No.

That is an icon for a user for whom there's no account on this site at all.

The question by James Wood got migrated from SU.

He does not have an account here, so he gets that icon.

If he registers here and associates his accounts, he'll get his usual gravatar.

1:55 PM

I thought it was an icon the user chose, not one set by the system. You are indeed right; I saw the EldeinTheTall's icon after he cancelled his account.

2:12 PM

@RegDwight: Thank you for the link in my answer. :-)

Did he say anything to anyone, or did he just disappear?

6

Q: What is the difference between 20$ and $20?

I am seeing both 20$ and $20 usages. (20 is nonessential to this question.) What is the difference between them?

usage spelling units

It seems that who answers is forgetting they are answering on EL&U; English is not the official language of Argentina, not it's the most spoken language.

@Robusto: I was going to ask Kosmonaut or nohat about it, but haven't run into either so far.

$20 is correct. With percentages, you put the mark at the end.

$20 or 20%. Not 20$ or %20.

If you write %20 it becomes a modulo operator. :)

That's right. :-)

2:17 PM

And 20$ is regular expression syntax. :)

@kiamlaluno: I just upticked you.

I wonder why the first question is more voted; if we are speaking of English, then you can just write it in one way.

@Robusto: Thank you. :-)

It's 40 minutes older.

That does make a difference.

I never see it written to the right of the number. @RegDwight, in L2R languages like Hebrew does the currency symbol go to the right or left of the number?

You're asking me things.

...

2:19 PM

No idea whatsoever.

My bad, sorry.

)))

Next time call me nuncle ...

shakespeare.mit.edu/lear/full.html

There's an urban legend of sorts that accountants started writing $20 and not 20$ so that nobody could sneak in another digit.

$20 => $200

Digit properly "snuck in"

2:22 PM

"Learn more than thou trowest."

@Robusto: my point exactly.

You can sneak in stuff either way.

Besides, why would accountants from other countries be so stoopid?

dictionary.babylon.com/trowest

Seems like the only usage is from that play?

German: trauen.

Du traust.

Thou trowest.

Ja, aber hier spricth man englisch, oder?

In erster Linie schreibt man Englisch hier.

You wouldn't want to hear me speaking, my pronunciation is rather rusty.

Sprechen, schreiben ... das ist mir egal.

2:27 PM

In Italy, when you write the amount on a "assegno", you add a # after the amount.

Right now I cannot remember the translation for "assegno".

<A sound of someone ordering three whiskeys>

2

LOL

Thank goodness for english.stackexchange.com. It's an outlet.

It was enough to think a little more: check.

Why thank you kind sir @Ed.

2:29 PM

How do you know @Ed is a "sir"?

I trust his photographing skills.

That's where the smart money goes, but there's still another possibility.

Of course, we should call you @SirRegDwight, right?

Allow me to remove any doubt. I'm a fella.

perhaps not worthy of the honorific, though

I'm just messing with me mate, @SirRegDwight.

Not just that, but also Commander of the Order of the British Empire, pretty please.

2:30 PM

Because he is always messing with me.

I'm never messing with you.

OK, fucking with me ...

Oh.

Eine Premiere!

Do you envy @badp's record or what?

takes two to mess

BTW, it would be schreibt man hier Englisch.

2:32 PM

True that, Ed.

actually, thinking, my daughter does pretty well by herself

Hehe, kids are like that.

@Robusto: not true. That would shift the stress.

gotta work. hoo roo

@RegDwight raises eyebrow

2:34 PM

The sentence would mean, first and foremost, we write English here (as opposed to other languages). What I said meant first and foremost, we write English here (as opposed to speaking).

I've never heard an adverb of place come at the end of a German sentence.

@kiamlaluno wasn't it "cheque"?

@badp: I was referring to your swearing skills.

I'll pull a rchern (or should I say, "an rchern"?) and say,

oy

@Robusto: now you have. Your order would be abso-freaking-lutely correct in general, but not to express what I was expressing.

2:35 PM

@badp: Probably is that, but I am not awake enough to be sure. ;-)

Now that's another premiere @badp.

Ah, OK.

@badp: Thank you.

@kiamlaluno It's only 1536 :)

@bapd: That is actually a British word. I am used to American English. :-)

2:36 PM

Is that @Kosmonaut right here?

@kiamlaluno Oh, okay. I'm used to whatever English people happen to speak on teh intarwebs.

@badp: I know, but I am never awake enough, at this hour. :-)

looks half of the room cringe

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master — that's all."

Yes indeed

2:37 PM

We are wondering what ever happened to ElendilTheTall. Obviously, I'm not asking for details that are none of my business, just looking for a confirmation that it wasn't a bug or a mistake.

Did Alice meet Humpty Dumpty? That is news for me. :-)

What happened? I have been gone.

He disappeared or what?

Geez. You're not informed, either?

Gone the dodo style.

No, I wasn't informed at all.

I guess that the "Deux ex-machina" came down. :-)

2:39 PM

How recently?

yesterday, by RegDwight

I didn't know it was possible that quickly. Normally, you'd have to request that, and it is handled by the mods.

I wasn't there when it happened. I went to bed, he was there. I woke up, he was gone.

If the deus ex machina lost his job, would he be the ex-deus ex machina?

Oh, and JohnFx is gone, too, but at least he left his profile intact.

And explained why he was leaving.

I don't see any record; I really don't know.

Magic, ladies and gentlemen.

2:44 PM

@RegDwight Do I need to ask on English what that means? :P

@Robusto: I would guess so. :-)

That's Siegfried and Roy.

They don't mean anything.

To me (^_^)

He became user3444 on any place where he had posted

Interesting.

How about Siegfried and Sieglinde? Do they mean anything to you?

If an "ex-deus ex machina" finds a job again, would he be a "ex-ex-deus ex machina"?

2:46 PM

I know one Sieglinde personally.

I think you would just say 2X deus ex machina ... like T-shirt sizes.

@kiamlaluno: lol.

But what if that person was also quite large?

XXL 2X deus ex machina?

3XL 2X

With all due respect, @Kosmonaut, that's just horrendous.

Women would refer to that as "plus size".

2:48 PM

6

Q: Euphemisms to replace "fat"

What euphemistic word/phrase could be used to refer to a person who is fat? I have heard "healthy" being used a lot of times in this context.

word-choice words

0

Q: Usage of “How is everyone”.

Hi, When we ask about well-being when we meet other people, is this the correct usage: How is everyone at home? or are there any other ways to address this when talking to a person via email or face-to-face? Thanks.

Now, I didn't say anything about fat.

I said large.

"I'm not saying she's fat, but when she buys a dress it comes with a rain fly."

I am sure it's a duplicate, but I cannot remember which is the original question.

But Robusto said "plus size", which reminded me of the question.

2:49 PM

I can't remember which comedian said that one. I want to say Dave Chappelle ...

Could be.

"I am not saying she is fat, but to turn around her I need a taxy."

Oh. I thought we were going to say jokes about fat people. :-)

This thread is rapidly deteriorating))) How about I ask your opinions on this one instead:

4

Q: Should we migrate "How to pronounce X" questions to EL&U?

Are pronunciation questions on-topic on SO? They certainly are on English Language and Usage, which is starting to get questions that have been previously asked on SO. 6 hours ago on EL&U: How to pronounce LINQ? 9½ months ago on SO: How to pronounce LINQ 6 hours ago on EL&U: How to pron...

discussion migration off-topic

Weird, when someone responds with a single line in here, the username is truncated.

[status-by-design]

2:52 PM

Kosmona, kiamlalun, RegDwigh ...

I was so smart to pick a short name. ;)

My name is not shown truncated to me.

Ubuntu Lucid.

Also, @Robusto, how do we know that your full handle ain't RobustovIvanMikhailovitch?

[Ponders how to give @SirRegDwight an indirect response ...]

Pondering is cheating.

See, that's just it. If you play by the rules you can lose.

Such is life.

2:55 PM

I don't see truncated names.

Hahaha: "kiamlalun: I don't see truncated names."

I had the screen on my laptop. When it narrows down that's the behavior. I've pulled it onto my main screen and now everything is hunky-dory.

I read "kiamlaluno". :-)

It could depend from the screen resolution.

Almost everything is hunky-dor

user image

2:57 PM

I am actually using 1600x900; that could be the reason. :-))

Confirmed. Maximizing the window works for me.

A dragon star just fell from the heavens ...

... floated gently into the avatar block as well.

Yeah, at least Sterndrachen can land, Drachensterne, they just fall.

"His soul swooned slowly as he heard the dragon star falling faintly through the universe and faintly falling, like the descent of their last end, upon all the living and the dead."

@kiamlaluno: Usage note — "It could depend on the screen resolution."

I actually have Dubliners, why don't I remember the quote?

3:03 PM

Look at the very end. Last sentence in the last story.

@Robusto: Thank you. :-)

Will look when at home.

OK, I lied. I substituted "dragon star" for "snow" ...

That reminds me of asking, why in English do you say "Bob is on the phone"? :-)

Worked for me.

Prepositions are like that.

3:04 PM

@kiamlaluno: Because that's how me mum taught me.

You can be in the rain, under the rain, inside the rain, depending on the language.

You can be on fire and under fire at the same time.

30

A: Saw people referring as "I am married with three kids"

If you're talking about you and your spouse, it's not possible to be "married with" anyone; you can only be "married to" someone. Hence there is no ambiguity in saying "married with three kids", as the "with" cannot be associated with "married".

Surely it's better than to be "in the phone", but that is what would seem to who never used the phone before. :-)

Too lazy to repost my comment from there.

@Robusto: now that would really suck.

3:07 PM

I can think of few things worse.

But if you're Jerry Bruckheimer, that gets you big bucks.

Last time I checked, "bad" didn't mean that there can't be anything worse. :P

I am singing in the rain would be I am singing under the rain, in Italian.

@RegDwight: Last time I checked, "I can think of few things worse" didn't mean "there can't be anything worse."

Last time I checked, I was 2 days younger. :-)

(Now I really hope "I checked" doesn't have weird meanings, in English.)

Let's see if I can blast some spammers.

As George Carlin pointed out, people say they get on a plane when they actually mean they get in it. Safer that way.

2

4

Q: Should we migrate "How to pronounce X" questions to EL&U?

Are pronunciation questions on-topic on SO? They certainly are on English Language and Usage, which is starting to get questions that have been previously asked on SO. 6 hours ago on EL&U: How to pronounce LINQ? 9½ months ago on SO: How to pronounce LINQ 6 hours ago on EL&U: How to pron...

discussion migration off-topic

commented

3:16 PM

Hahaha, you pwned me @Robusto, I retreat. I misread "few" as "a few".

That's why we go over these usage notes.

7

Q: "A few" vs. "few"

I have few friends. I have a few friends. I thought "few" means just one, two or even none. "A few" typically means more than two. However it seems to me some people say "few" when they really mean "a few", am I right?

word-choice grammar determiners

3:56 PM

@Robusto: now guess what someone's commenting on the $20 vs 20$ question...

Déjà vu.

Yep, just like déjà vu all over again.

@Robusto: and now I just want to cry, just see what someone commented on my MSO question: "I think EL&U is dominated by US English, whereas there is a far wider user base on SO, which, I think, makes it a better place for questions about the pronunciation of programming terms when it is likely that it will vary a great deal between different flavours of English."

[Sigh]

That actually hurts.

I haven't been insulted that much in quite a while.

I'm sad and infuriated at the same time.

I have to go in a few minutes. Talk you later when I'm at home. Some cheerful poetry is in order.

4:16 PM

Later.

I upticked your comment btw.

Thanks for that. BTW, check out if you would close this:

1

Q: Use of the plural with list, and when item count is 0

I keep asking myself which form is the most correct when listing items on a website: "Article list" or "Articles list"? Also, when nothing was found, do you say: "No items were found" or "No item was found" or more simply "No item(s?) found?

grammatical-number list

CU.

4:40 PM

I don't think EL&U is dominated by US English.

We have regular users representing all the major varieties of English.

5:21 PM

If anything, answers that skew toward an unqualified American interpretation are quickly "corrected" — often in the harshest possible way.

1 hour later…

6:22 PM

Sorry folks, turns out I won't be chatting tonight, my spouse is sick. Catch you all some other time.

2 hours later…

7:56 PM

This is strange: I saw my reputation was 6011, and all in a sudden is went to 5983.

The strange is that the daily reputation didn't change; it was 204 before, and it is 204 now.

How can that happen? I looked at english.stackexchange.com/reputation; could that be the cause?

Uhmmm… I guess that two of my answers have been deselected as chosen.

8:12 PM

Yes, looking at english.stackexchange.com/reputation is probably the reason.

2 hours later…

10:18 PM

@Kosmonaut: Thank you.

11:03 PM

I just received the Strunk & White tag — I find it embarrassing!

Why? Isn't it a silver badge? :-)

It means you edited 100 entries.

@Kosmonaut: Welcome in the group!

Between the users with that badge, two are 10k users, and two not.

If the name of the badge is offensive, that is not something I know. I don't know what strunk means. :-)

Isn't this question too open?

1

Q: Why does American English pluralize certain singular nouns?

I keep hearing "A savings of $10" or such and such a thing is "a ways off". Sounds deeply weird to my British English ear.

american-english

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