English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2012-03-20 (page 3 of 4)

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6:04 PM

C# people, what does this mean? .Select(p => p.GetValue(item, null).ToCsvValue())

I don't understand what that is supposed to be doing.

@KitFox Could I ask you about some of the internet uses of the word "troll?"

Sure.

@KitFox it calls ToCsvValue() on every item in the collection, and returns a new collection consisting of those values

Oh dear.

Thanks @JSB.

@KitFox When you call someone "a troll" it brings up the image of a dwarf living under a bridge, but when you say they are "trolling" you are saying they are "fishing" for a response... correct?

6:11 PM

Yes, specifically fishing for attention, usually negative.

Matt Эллен

not a dwarf! a troll. they're different. fantasy bestiary pout

3

@MattЭллен " bestiary pout?" what does that mean in English, is this not an English Language and Usage room?

@Skullpatrol ELU chat : aka The Incomprehensible Room

Aug 9 '11 at 0:51, by random

This room was placed in timeout for 2 minutes; the topic of this room is "aka The Incomprehensible Room" - conversation should be limited to that topic.

but actually, Matt's statement is perfectly comprehensible, syntactically unremarkable English

6:15 PM

user image

@Skullpatrol it means "pout related to a fantasy bestiary"

user image

Guess who's the troll.

@JSBᾶngs Thank you

And who the dwarf.

@Skullpatrol Perhaps it was less clear because Matt didn't use a hyphen...

Fantasy-bestiary pout.

But it still deserves a star.

Matt Эллен

@Skullpatrol heh, I'm just trollin' ;)

6:19 PM

@MattЭллен THAT is my point the word "troll" is being used in TWO different senses

What's your point?

.

@Skullpatrol What's wrong with that?

"Troll" has two different meanings.

When we say someone is "trolling" in chat we are taking advantage of both meanings.

6:20 PM

etymonline.com/index.php?term=troll

For 500 or so years.

@Robusto nothing

Wow Dutch has treuzelen en trol.

Damn, but people are stupid and ill-informed.

"ugly dwarf or giant" and as KitFox says " specifically fishing for attention, usually negative."

@KitFox What do you mean by "negative attention?"

Most of the people on this site come here from a programming background, and know little or nothing of literature, poetry, song — all the manifestly great uses of the language. And then they say something stupid about it, and other ill-informed people upvote them because it is what they know too.

6:27 PM

@Skullpatrol Trying to cause arguments or insults. Generally disruptive sorts of behavior.

@KitFox So causing an argument or insulting someone are the actions of trolling?

ie the verb usage

Well, an attempt to do so, yes.

@Robusto looks at you

@KitFox Then calling someone a "troll" is calling them an "ugly creature"

@Cerberus ???

6:32 PM

@Skullpatrol Yes. That kind of behavior is pretty ugly, don't you think?

Shouldn't I be able to include a C# file in my project and reference the methods in it from a VB file? Or am I smoking too much crack?

Here's how it works. A troll is typically an ugly, deliberately annoying, often dangerous creature. When you call a person a troll, you're obviously using it as a metaphor. In the case of internet trolls, the "deliberately annoying" property is the core of what carries over from the original sense; but "ugly" and "dangerous" are also present as connotations, a bit farther from the surface.

@KitFox Well.. beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

When you're calling a girl on the street a troll, it is probably "ugly" that makes up the core of the metaphor.

@Robusto nothing

Capisce?

@KitFox you can't do that in the same project, but you can have projects in different languages in the same solution, and they can call each others' methods

Yeah, I read that after I managed to find it.

Then I kicked stuff.

6:38 PM

@Cerberus Thank you for your clear explanation.

user19161

@skull I see you are still thinking about "troll". Don't worry so much about it. I think the guys in the other room don't mean anything bad.

't Was a pleasure.

@WillHunting What guys in what room?

@Skullpatrol By the way, the sense of internet "troll" has evolved a bit into someone who is just teasing people. It can be fairly innocent.

user19161

@KitFox The children were playing in the math room, but sometimes playing crosses the line, you know.

6:40 PM

So was he trolling?

A line or a curve?

user19161

@KitFox The word is not well-defined, so closing as NARQ.

rolls eyes

Were you trolling, @Skull?

closes Jasper

How would he know?

user19161

@KitFox You should not ask him that, he is quite sensitive about it.

6:42 PM

I'm not asking you whether you were labaxing.

@WillHunting If he is sensitive, then maybe he shouldn't use online chat rooms.

True.

And the SE rooms are quite benign.

@Cerberus Most people know if they are being jerks.

user19161

I also find that sometimes various people cross the line a bit in various ways in various rooms, let us all be more careful.

@KitFox Hmm I don't know...

6:43 PM

Crossing the line is one thing, trolling is another. Trolling is deliberate, with intent.

Crossing the line can be done by accident.

@Cerberus Whatever, jackass. phbblt

@KitFox NOU

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus aye, like what I was doing just now

This has to be a dupe.

0

Q: Rules for forming demonyms

Are there specific rules / conventions at play when creating demonyms? Or are they merely formed organically over time - the most popular winning out? There are many suffixes to choose from, but I cannot find concrete guidelines as to which is proper to use in which instance.

morphology demonyms

This is a great definition: "A troll is typically an ugly, deliberately annoying, often dangerous creature. When you call a person a troll, you're obviously using it as a metaphor. In the case of internet trolls, the "deliberately annoying" property is the core of what carries over from the original sense; but "ugly" and "dangerous" are also present as connotations, a bit farther from the surface."

@Robusto Oh yeah.

6:44 PM

@MattЭллен Where, which the pouting? Naaahhh that doesn't count, sorry.

7

Q: Deriving nouns and adjectives from place names

When describing people we often use adjectives based on their place of origin. (I'm asking about people only for simplicity.) 1) She is American. 2) He is English. 3) They are Canadian. You can also describe people as nouns based on their origins: 4) She is an American. 5) He is an Englishma...

nouns adjectives

This one?

@Skullpatrol OK but add to that the "fairly innocent" bit.

user19161

@Skullpatrol To me the word "troll" is not that bad a word. It is certainly not as bad as say "asshole".

user19161

And sometimes you call a friend "asshole" too.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus oh, well, I'll take that as a compliment :)

6:46 PM

@WillHunting True

user19161

@Skullpatrol Everything I say is true, but you may only realize it 9000 years later.

Calling someone a troll means that you think they are intentionally being a jerk.

@MattЭллен See, if only everybody did that.

It must be remembered that trolls feature in many fairy tales in which they wait under bridges to pounce upon unwary travelers. Thus they are viewed as obstacles to commerce and communication.

@Cerberus Where would I add "fairly innocent?"

6:47 PM

@KitFox Not necessarily a jerk: it can be more gentle.

7 mins ago, by Cerberus

@Skullpatrol By the way, the sense of internet "troll" has evolved a bit into someone who is just teasing people. It can be fairly innocent.

user19161

@Cerberus Exactly.

@Cerberus No, it isn't more gentle. "Troll" is not nice and fluffy.

user19161

"Son of a bitch" can be used for both worst enemy and best friend.

@Robusto Hmm I am unaware of this bridge connotation. Perhaps that is an English thing?

Matt Эллен

also there is the use of "troll" as a verb:

3 hours ago, by Robusto

@MattЭллен Stop trolling for used stars.

6:49 PM

You can tease a friend by calling him a "son of a bitch," but you wouldn't mean it if that person were your friend.

Matt Эллен

where it means to behave in an attention seeking manner

@KitFox It can be, as in "I was trolling a little bit", as in Matt's confession above.

Three Billy Goats Gruff

Three Billy Goats Gruff () is a Norwegian fairy tale. The fairy tale was collected by Peter Christen Asbjørnsen and Jørgen Moe in their Norske Folkeeventyr, first published between 1841 and 1844. It has an "eat-me-when-I'm-fatter" plot (Aarne-Thompson type 122E). Plot The story introduces three male goats, sometimes identified in the story as youngster, father and grandfather, but more often described as brothers. There is no grass left for them to eat near to where they live, so they must cross a river to get to a "sæter" (a meadow) or hillside on the other side of a stream in order to e...

@Cerberus That's different. That's the verb form.

user image

6:50 PM

Is that you?

user19161

Also, sometimes enemies can become friends and friends can become enemies over time, to complicate matters further.

@Robusto Excellent!!!

@KitFox Right, well, if you characterise a person as a troll, you ascribe "trolling" to him as some kind of permanent property, which I guess is more serious.

@Cerberus A troll lives under a bridge and has no life.

Hmm I don't know about that.

user19161

6:53 PM

@Skullpatrol Where does "skullpatrol" come from?

Trolling is mainly about teasing, not having no life.

"Morton Kondracke ... once characterized the role Mr. Novak played so enthusiastically as 'the troll under the bridge of American journalism.'" nytimes.com/2009/08/19/business/media/…

This idea has become a trope in America.

It is apparently an American thing, then.

Matt Эллен

this made me laugh (apropos of nothing)

@Cerberus People who "tease: on the internet" have no life.

So, in a sense, we are all trolls

QED

6:55 PM

I don't think many European internet users would have this association, but then what do I know about other countries. The bridge thing doesn't often come up on fora or whatever.

user19161

@Skullpatrol Now you have been infected with QED. QED.

@Skullpatrol Nahh there is the typical high-school kid coming home drunk after a night of partying...

Q is a fictional character who appears in the television series Star Trek: The Next Generation, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine and Star Trek: Voyager, as well as in related products. In all of these programs, he is played by John de Lancie. The name "Q" also applies to all other individuals of the Q Continuum. Q is said to be omnipotent, and is continually evasive regarding his motivations. His home, the Q Continuum, is accessible to the Q and their guests, and the true nature of it is said to be beyond the comprehension of "lesser beings" such as humans so it is only shown to humans in wa...

He has a friend named ED.

Matt Эллен

@Robusto a Sci Fi troll!

@Robusto What you are doing with these links could be considered a form of "trolling."

6:58 PM

@MattЭллен Surely you mean "speculative fiction."

Matt Эллен

@Robusto right, right. sorry :D

@Robusto But I'm not calling you a troll ;-)

@Skullpatrol No. There are no rules in The Incomprehensible Room. People often post lots of random shit, or worse. Sometimes they even do their C# homework in here.

user19161

As long as we are using English, we are on-topic. If we use other languages we are still on topic as we are making a comparative study.

@Cerberus And so not worthy of notice or remark now?

7:00 PM

I think we ALL agree that the concept of "trollness" is negative, yes/no?

@Skullpatrol Notice that none of the trolls raised their hands.

user19161

@Skullpatrol The problem is, positive and negative are not well-defined in life, and I am not bullshitting here.

@Skullpatrol that's racist. don't you know that trolls have been oppressed for centuries?

@Robusto Thank you I did notice that.

@WillHunting And a lot of things are neither positive or negative.

user19161

Let's take farting as an example. Farting can be negative but maybe your partner likes your farting in an affectionate way so it becomes positive.

Matt Эллен

7:03 PM

like neutrons

@Robusto What? I said I was unaware of this connotation. I don't know what you mean now.

@JSBᾶngs No, I did not know that ;)

@Skullpatrol Hmm I wouldn't say that. It can also be funny.

@Cerberus "Funny" in what sense?

It can be fun, interacting with someone who is trolling you a bit.

Benign trolls can be funny.

In my book.

Matt Эллен

7:07 PM

Cerb's book of what is funny. Available at all good bookshops.

Written in Latin.

Trolls are not benign.

If they were benign, they wouldn't be trolls.

For me they can be.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus See, now that would be trolling, especially you couldn't check before hand

Perhaps I have chatted on Kongregate too much.

user19161

7:08 PM

@matt's spelling of program/programme available in all good dictionaries

@MattЭллен Oh, absolutely, it would be tightly wrapped in plastic foil.

Matt Эллен

@WillHunting definitely

@Cerberus Fishing for a response, in my opinion, is more accurate.

More accurate?

For benign trolling.

7:11 PM

I'd rather describe it as teasing and trying to fool someone.

Like a prank.

user image

Firefox goes 3D on ELU!

That’s exactly what it is. Anonymous pranking.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Don't feed the Skulpatroll.

@Robusto Ohh is that the new layout?

FF 11 has a 3D feature.

7:13 PM

@RegDwightѬſ道 Haha I guess I shouldn't. But I like trolls.

Good for checking out z-index, among other things.

How do I activate that?

Matt Эллен

video about trolling

@Robusto that strikes me as the definition of a gratuitous feature

bashes head on wall

RegDwight Ѭſ道

7:14 PM

@MattЭллен That video is not available in my country.

Can you please describe it in your own words?

@MattЭллен Hah. You know, every time I get rickrolled, I actually enjoy it, because I like listening to the song once in a while.

@RegDwightѬſ道 It's rolling, not trolling.

@KitFox See what happens?

@RegDwightѬſ道 Haha you poor GEMA victims.

@JSBᾶngs It gives you an interesting perspective on the markup. Also, it apparently highlights malformed markup.

7:14 PM

@KitFox T is short for Rick.

Perhaps it is time to switch to a VPN permanently.

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 It seems many videos are not available in your country.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@KitFox Rock and Troll?

user19161

Someone called skullpatrol scalloptroll.

Why is it so f-cking difficult to convert a linq query into a comma delimited string?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

7:15 PM

@WillHunting And guess how many Rick Astleys that saved me.

It is funny how each country's MAFIAA represents its Volksart.

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 Unfortunately you cannot watch my favourite version of Flying Without Wings.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@WillHunting Unfortunately for whom?

SABAM: silly. GEMA: gründlich.

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 Thwack.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

7:16 PM

How is that a thwack???

Accusative is not thwackable in this chat.

That may be dative.

Although I suppose für also goes with the accusative.

I would call it dative, because it shows the recipient of an (unspecified) action who is not necessarily the (direct or indirect) object.

@Cerberus Did you notice how fast someone calls someone else "a troll?"

@JonPurdy Hmm it's not that simple. This is the object of a preposition.

@Skullpatrol Oh, yes, absolutely. It is like calling someone a Jew in the European thirties, or a commie in the American fifties.

@Cerberus It could just be prepositional case then.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

7:19 PM

English has no prepositional case.

This is not the Russian room.

@JonPurdy And the case that goes with for is most likely the accusative, since it also has the accusative in German.

There is no prepositional case.

Matt Эллен

@RegDwightѬſ道 over 9000?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Mar 23 '11 at 22:54, by JSBangs

btw, i hold that English has 4 cases

Take it from a linguist.

And I did talk him into accepting a fifth, but prepositional it wasn't.

Yes, four would seem most appropriate.

user19161

I have two cases: a pencil case and a spectacle case.

7:21 PM

But I believe JSB is no professional linguist.

Proto-Indo-European had 7 cases, I believe.

Nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, ablative, instrumental, and locative.

And the semi-case vocative.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

JSBangs might be the most unprofessional linguist in this room if he so chose, but you can't spell unprofessional without professional, so that's good enough for me.

@RegDwightѬſ道 I believe Russian has some kind of instrumental case still?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Sure.

-om -yem.

@RegDwightѬſ道 Faultless, if unintelligible, reasoning.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

That's how I troll.

7:23 PM

I know.

user19161

Trolls troll. Owls owl.

It's funny how winged trolls moderate our precious site.

@Cerberus @KitFox @WillHunting @Matt @Robusto @RegDwight Thank you everybody for your "troll" comments you were all very helpful ;-)

I love the example Wikipedia gives for ornative case: “equipped with a house”. (The only language it cites with such a case is Dumi, a language of Nepal.)

@Skullpatrol Troll!

7:24 PM

TIL I can equip a house.

Matt Эллен

@Skullpatrol you're welcome :)

@Cerberus get a life ;-)

The problem is how to fit it in my inventory.

@JonPurdy Haha, yes, there are some exotic languages out there. But be aware that it was people someone speaking a European language who was trying to fit a European label onto a strange construction: some simpler label may exist that would make it seem much less exotic.

I have encountered religious folk who make the argument that it’s okay to be gay and marry, as long as you marry someone of the opposite sex.

@Cerberus Most likely. Linguistics as a field has a habit of that.

7:26 PM

Yeah exactly.

And as long as they recognize that, it's fine.

Also, “gay and marry” must sound quite pleasant for people who merge marry and merry.

user19161

@JonPurdy I had to reinterpret the sentence upon the last clause.

I have just been invited to my first gay wedding.

3

In December.

@Cerberus Are they going to wear white?

White? Why?

Matt Эллен

7:28 PM

white symbolises virginity

I am expecting either the traditional grey morning coat, or simply dark suits.

Not going to lie, I find weddings boring, and am not into marriages in general. I would say “marriage is passé” but I’m trying not to level to the next kind of pretentious.

@JonPurdy Why boring? Depends on who's coming. They are said to be perfect dating places...

People having their day is great.

Even better than funerals.

user19161

7:29 PM

Funerals and weddings are both boring.

@Cerberus Fair enough. I’ve only ever gone to relatives’ weddings though.

Of course the ceremonies shouldn't take too long, and there should be really funny jokes.

So no dating.

Why not?

There should be 100–200 youngsters there...

Even if I felt comfortable mating with my family members, I haven’t met any that are attractive to me.

7:30 PM

Not too shabby.

Eh why date relatives? Relatives should be only a tiny minority.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus that is bigger than any wedding I've been to

Now there’s an odd kind of sentence. “Even if…I haven’t.”

@MattЭллен Hmm yeah, it depends, of course they can be smaller. But, if there are lots of ceremonies, I would expect a sizable crowd?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus are we talking about multiple weddings at once? I must have missed that.

user19161

@Cerberus 100 minus 200 is minus 100.

7:33 PM

@JonPurdy That's because there is ellipsis, of the first main clause: "even if I felt comfortable mating with family members, [I would not have succeeded, because] I haven't met any that are attractive to me".

user19161

@JonPurdy Also can a gay bond be called mating?

@MattЭллен No I mean like the official pronouncing them man and wife, and the speeches afterwards, and whatever people do at weddings.

@Cerberus Do your sentences seem ungrammatical but don’t be? Chalk it up to ellipsis!

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus oh! well, that might effect the number of people.

@JonPurdy That is really the case, usually, when the sentence makes sense but seems ungrammatical.

7:34 PM

@MattЭллен …into being larger or smaller.

Matt Эллен

@JonPurdy I'm not sure. the more ceremonies then the wedding might be more lavish, and more lavish weddings would have more attendees

but, the more ceremonies, then the more people might slink off

Haha.

Well, they would either not go at all, or stay until the party!

@WillHunting I see no reason why it shouldn’t. Other critters that are said to “mate” for life also have homosexual pairs. So mating in the sense of bonding, not reproductively copulating. And, in fact, bonding may be a better word for it.

Isn't a mate just a consort?

@MattЭллен I was adding on to your sentence because you used effect and there was a way to make it correct. :P

user19161

7:37 PM

I have not watched Brokeback Mountain.

Matt Эллен

@JonPurdy :D I always muddle those two up, thanks

I mean, there is no sense of reproduction in the Grundbedeutung of "mate".

In Dutch, maat just means pal.

user19161

@Cerberus grund... is beyond me.

The "core" sense of a word.

It turns out a mate was originally someone with whom one shared a meal or ate a meal.

Possibly related to mete, as in measure out ~ distribute ~ share.

Which in turn comes from some root meaning "cut off".

Huh. Well, I do eat most of my meals with the girl I’m seeing.

7:42 PM

I mete and dole
Unequal laws unto a savage race,
That hoard, and sleep, and feed, and know not me.

Cooking for multiple people forces me to make something real rather than just heating up something premade.

@JonPurdy See?

@Cerberus You are vindicated.

Yay!

How long have you been seeing her?

Um, maybe a year? We don’t have an official anniversary.

7:50 PM

Hi @Gigili

OK that's pretty long, well done.

'Ello.

@Cerberus You said trolling maybe a form of teasing (hence the long wait).

But I like it ;-)

@Skullpatrol Um I meant Jon has been seeing his girl for a long while...

@Cerberus What do you think of the "Anonymous pranking" interpretation?

7:58 PM

Hello.

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