English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

SmokeDetector

10:47 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: "Pending approval" or "Approval pending" by Chandramohan on english.SE

Matt E. Эллен

11:12 AM

> lam eating to approval my amount

do they think "approval" is the same as "improve"?

Færd

11:51 AM

@Tonepoet Hmm. Thanks.

Yes, that's what's missing from #1: the agent (people). Maybe the reason why people don't find it jarring in "He must be punished by excluding him from the team." is that there's an implicit agent: we, or his teammates. It's more specific than generic people, anyway.

And I think @tchrist 's sentence, "I can most easily be reached in real time by pinging me in the ELU chatroom.", is alright too: the agent is you, which is clearly understood from the context.

And why should you dislike them? They have their use. As for Tom's 'about me' section, most sentences there have I as their subject, which acceptably excuses the inversion of You can reach me to I can be reached so that the text is homogeneous and all sentences are of uniform construction.

@MattE.Эллен They need some gentle reproval.

Robusto

1:35 PM

Interesting article in The Economist, apropos of language gender.

Cerberus

1:52 PM

@Robusto I wonder what arguments the Academy has against la présidente when it's a woman.

I don't see a problem with such titles.

And madame le ministre looks ugly.

Robusto

@Cerberus It's in the text: "La présidente, say some traditionalists going further, is the wife of the president."

Cerberus

But at least the insanity from English has not really affected the French.

@Robusto Yes, but it says that goes even further than the Academy's reasoning.

Robusto

We should not be too surprised to find a bedrock of tradition regarding the French language.

Cerberus

Indeed, and I applaud them for it.

Within reason.

Robusto

Reason is not the term I'd use to describe traditionalism.

Cerberus

1:55 PM

I would!

Robusto

I know!

Cerberus

But I never liked the whole la Maréchale thing.

Robusto

Reason will abandon traditionalism at a moment's notice, breaking your traditionalist heart.

Cerberus

Why should a woman's title depend on that of her husband?

@Robusto Not at all!

It is only reasonable to enjoy the traditions of one's culture.

Although, of course, they should be adjusted if they have serious disadvantages.

Robusto

What about people who embrace the new? Are they then unreasonable?

Cerberus

1:57 PM

It depends.

Matt E. Эллен

but people get so angry when I try and colonise them

Cerberus

Some one cannot reason with...

@MattE.Эллен Have you tried nuclear bombs?

Robusto

@MattE.Эллен Maybe you should try to semicolonise them instead.

Matt E. Эллен

lol

Cerberus

Or that.

It is the middle classes who hate tradition.

The rest of the population usually values traditions more.

And there are plenty of traditions that all classes value highly.

Matt E. Эллен

1:59 PM

I don't hate it, I just think that people who hold on to tradition for tradition's sake are deliberately trying to hold back progress for progress' sake

Robusto

@Cerberus Now now, let's not calumnize the petite-bourgeouisie!

Cerberus

It depends on the case, I would say.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It's also reasonable to discard traditions if there are problems with them.

Robusto

Slavery used to be a tradition. Good riddance, I say.

Cerberus

Especially with regard to aesthetic traditions, it hard to say what's progress and what is mere change.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Certainly.

2 mins ago, by Cerberus

Although, of course, they should be adjusted if they have serious disadvantages.

@Robusto But it's fun!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:00 PM

@Cerberus The French language has serious disadvantages when it comes to gender.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I will probably disagree with you, as you know...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well the article outlined it, basically

Cerberus

I say to anti-traditionalists, pick your battles. Attack traditions that have serious, real problems.

Robusto

:36913048 Hmm, I always hear it pronounced "petty" ...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's the same problems English has with male-default language, only it's worse.

Cerberus

2:02 PM

Or you risk alienating the lower classes.

Matt E. Эллен

I'm past my 3 free article limit... oh, private browsing, of course

Cerberus

Populism has been partly caused by the destruction of traditions that those people hold dear.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I think part of the problem is when people are simply ignorant of the way reality is, and they blindly cling to failing traditions and lash out at people who try to improve them.

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен I use Self-Destructing Cookies (Firefox), which destroys a cookie once the tab has closed (or the session, or never—your choice).

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's very telling that the most xenophobic people tend to be the ones with the least contact with immigrants/foreigners.

Cerberus

2:04 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 At any rate, it makes large numbers of people feel alienated and angry.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That's actually interesting.

Sometimes, yes; at other times, no.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Those people should become better informed.

Robusto

@Cerberus Just because Trump is a faux-populist doesn't mean there is anything inherently wrong with populism, but there is with demagoguery.

Cerberus

For example, our right-wing populist party has lots of support in the south, where few foreigners dwell. But also in the worse neighbourhoods of Amsterdam, where there are plenty of foreigners.

Robusto

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Hmmm. Symptom or cause?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Or the progressives should pick their battles.

@Robusto How would you distinguish between those two terms?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:06 PM

@Robusto It's my understanding that the best way to eliminate xenophobia/racism is for people to get more involved with different people. Familiarity tends to reduce conflict.

Matt E. Эллен

ah, yes, the populism/demagoguery merger.

Robusto

@Cerberus Populism is actually doing things for the people. Demagoguery adds hypocrisy to the mix.

Cerberus

@Robusto I've never heard a satisfactory explanation. It's probably complicated.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus So, progressives should stop fighting racism and xenophobia because ignorant people are ignorant?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, to some degree; but at other times the result is the opposite: people feel threatened by how their neighbourhoods are taken over, and by the young foreigners hanging around squares and stuff.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:07 PM

@Cerberus But that's because they're still not mixing.

Cerberus

@Robusto Hmm that's not the definition I'm used to. The former I would probably call socialism.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

They see "young foreigners" and they avoid them. They don't engage with those kids' parents, they don't expand their social circles, etc.

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus well, perhaps there is overlap

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But kids who grow up in schools with diverse populations don't think anything of it when they see people who don't look like them.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 They should pick issues that are substantial, and that almost everyone agrees on, e.g. how it's much harder to get a job if you have a name that sounds like the Near East.

Robusto

2:09 PM

@Cerberus "Populism is a political doctrine that proposes that the common people are exploited by a privileged elite, and which seeks to resolve this." That is not to say it can't be used cynically and hypocritically, and as a weapon in the elite's arsenal, as Trump does.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus What about how much harder it is to get a job if you have a name that sounds female?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That's not really true: there is lots of contact, at least in the streets, shops, etc. But they find the young foreigners intimidating.

Robusto

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Why do you think I change mine from Robusta?

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен Quite possibly.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, I think that often works to some degree.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus That's not sufficient mixing.

Cerberus

2:11 PM

@Robusto Hmm that's not entirely how I would use it, but I suppose it doesn't matter.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, or if you have a female body.

Robusto

@Cerberus I think how you would describe it aims at the corrupted version, not the Platonic ideal.

Cerberus

That is a real issue, and almost everybody agrees that it's bad.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But it is more mixing than in most places, and yet people are more xenophobic in those neighbourhoods.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Part of the problem why it's harder to find work if you're female is the "male default" bias that is built into society - and that's evident in how the French language treats gender.

Cerberus

So my point is, sometimes more contact results in less xenophobia; but at other times, it's the other way around.

Robusto

BTW, apropos of gender:

Apr 26 '14 at 18:50, by Robusto

Why would the term for vagina be masculine? I mean, if ever there was an argument against linguistic gender, that would be it.

Cerberus

2:13 PM

@Robusto Yes, absolutely. For me it is also "I am the people, I know what the people want".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto Well, ever hear of the "little man in a boat"? Why is it a man?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't agree with that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I know. You're wrong though.

But I won't try to convince you further, not today anyway.

Cerberus

@Robusto Touché, I think.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No, you're wonrg!!!!oneone

Robusto

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Because that's where most men want to be at any given time?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:15 PM

@Robusto Heh. But probably that's not why.

Robusto

But that reminds me of the male chauvinist joke: "A vagina is like a boat. It is better to have the use of one than to have one."

Cerberus

At any rate, even if I were wrong, it would be better to tackle more serious, substantial, uncontroversial issues first. Otherwise you risk alienating many people, amongst which the political centre / the average person.

Matt E. Эллен

lol. alienate the xenophobes :D

Cerberus

And then you will not be taken seriously, and your mission will be marginalised and fail.

@MattE.Эллен No, the centre.

tchrist

@Robusto It's la vagina but el coño just as it is el penis but la polla. Medical terms have the right genders; vulgar ones flip.

Robusto

2:17 PM

Apr 26 '14 at 18:49, by tchrist

@Robusto Well, just le con not la conne, right?

From the same discussion.

tchrist

I cannot answer for the bunnies.

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus 52% of the people who voted, voted brexit. they did so because they're xenophobic for the most part. if we get a tory majority in June that will also be the reason.

Robusto

In any case, language genders are an artifact of a more primitive language.

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен That is possible.

tchrist

Primitive how?

Robusto

2:19 PM

More complicated, I think. That's just a feeling, not even a conjecture.

Vestigial appendages like noun gender and elaborate case systems tend to fall away over the years?

Matt E. Эллен

not within a language, but perhaps when you're conquered (by the romans, then saxons and the vikings, then the normans) perhaps you're forced to simplify things?

tchrist

Complicated is nuanced, the opposite of primitive.

Robusto

I don't think gender is a nuance.

It is entirely unrelated to meaning, at least in the way it is used.

Cerberus

It can be useful.

In English, you have to use it to refer to any thing.

tchrist

You don't think his and her is nuance? What about him and her then?

Cerberus

2:25 PM

In French, you can be more precise, using il or elle.

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus you can use one sometimes

Cerberus

Yes.

But the distinction itself between masculine and feminine nouns adds precision.

Matt E. Эллен

do people ever say "get me all the female ones"?

Cerberus

In modern Dutch, we usually use he for things now, because we have forgotten our genders.

@MattE.Эллен In French, si!

Matt E. Эллен

ok

Cerberus

2:27 PM

Or just get me them and you know they mean the forks, not the plates.

Matt E. Эллен

gender is a leaky metaphor

tchrist

Gender is nuance. Case is nuance. Degree is nuance. Tense is nuance.

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен Don't start about vaginae and penes again.

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus if those are leaky, see a doctor

tchrist

Peninsulas.

Cerberus

2:29 PM

@tchrist However, I do think Rob is right that things like genders tend to disappear to some degree with time, in our language family.

And you could say older is primitive (though not in a bad way).

@MattE.Эллен Check.

Robusto

@tchrist I'm talking about noun gender. It's when you try to give it meaning that it becomes problematic.

tchrist

The Saxons and the Norse had conflicting inflectional paradigms for the same base nouns, and so to talk to each other, theae both had to be discarded.

Robusto

I rest my case.

For the language to evolve, certain appurtenances had to be discarded.

Cerberus

Yes, creoles tend to lose inflexion.

Matt E. Эллен

who're you calling a creole!?

Cerberus

2:32 PM

But are they less primitive?

@MattE.Эллен It wasn't about your skin colour!!

Nothing against green.

tchrist

@Robusto It's just noun classes linguistically. Many many many world languages have various and sundry noun classes.

Matt E. Эллен

no I meant our language :D

Cerberus

That, too.

Robusto

@tchrist I agree. And many don't.

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен whoa whoa whoa. Aren't the normans sort of latter day vikings?

Matt E. Эллен

2:35 PM

@Mitch I don't think so. The Normans don't speak Norse.

Cerberus

They had been civilised.

Before they attacked England.

Mitch

assimilated

Cerberus

Yes.

Mitch

they were more discriminate in their raping and pillaging

tchrist

Yoyo criollo avec un soupçon étrangère.

Robusto

2:36 PM

@Cerberus That is a matter of opinion. Also a matter of degree.

Mitch

The Norsemen didn't speak Norse for very long.

all those croissants and crepes and meringue

Cerberus

@Robusto Naturally. But they weren't like the Vikings any more.

tchrist

Danelaw

Matt E. Эллен

The four Norsemen of the crepocalypse

Mitch

mmm

Robusto

2:38 PM

@Mitch 150 years or so before the Conquest. The Norsemen began to settle into Normandy ~900.

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен My requested last meal before execution?

All you can eat endless buffet

"Nope, not done yet"

Matt E. Эллен

clever

tchrist

Franks. Wieners. Beans. Pastries.

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch careful not to choke on the chicken wings

Mitch

self affirmation

Robusto

2:39 PM

@MattE.Эллен That's why you should eat Buffalo wings instead. /nod

Mitch

I am in control of my destigrarhphghtp...

Matt E. Эллен

:D

@Robusto a hod's as good as a sink to a blind norse

Robusto

@MattE.Эллен Cue Eric Idle ... hod hod sink sink

tchrist

Cod?

Mitch

scrod

Matt E. Эллен

2:43 PM

;)

Mitch

an ugly name

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch so long as someone is. it sounds dangerous

tchrist

englishrecs.stackexchange.com

Mitch

as dangerous as dropping a chain saw into a hay baling machine

not particularly interesting if neither are on.

tchrist

is?

Mitch

2:46 PM

I pronounced it as 'neether', so it's 'are'

Matt E. Эллен

I pronounce it as "niteer", so it's "weave"

Mitch

well, lah dee dah

I bet you wouldn't let butter melt in your mouth

I don't know what that means, but I mean it to sting.

tchrist

Number is nuance.

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch I didn't understand it, iteer, but it hurt like hell

Cerberus

@Mitch Oh, come on, surely that isn't dangerous?

Mitch

2:52 PM

You can play the guitar, just like a ringing a bell?

Cerberus

You just jump onto the machine and pull the chainsaw out

Mitch

You'd certainly have to wash you hands afterwards if you're not careful.

Matt E. Эллен

Beaten By Lava

Cerberus

Can lava wield a stick?

Robusto

@MattE.Эллен No puede limpiar su Lava.

And now I have to get ready for class. Laterz.

Cerberus

3:05 PM

Adios!

Valentin Aslanyan

Hi, quick meta-question: I posted a single-word-request. Am I allowed to edit my question to discuss the various answers and why I accepted one in particular?

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive body detected: Why would anyone say I'm a motherf***** starboy instead of I'm a starboy? What sense does it make? What meaning does it add? by user72227 on english.SE

RegDwigнt

3:32 PM

@Robusto I, uh. Why are we celebrating Hitler's birthday?

More to the point, why are we celebrating it with foreign plastic and dope? Should be German wurst and German volkswagen, mate.

Matt E. Эллен

3:47 PM

@ValentinAslanyan I think putting the discussion in the question would be a distraction from the question. It could be helpful to future people with the same question if you want to leave a comment under the answers

MetaEd

5:20 PM

Matt E. Эллен

:D

Tonepoet

5:51 PM

@MetaEd Oh geeze, you're fully plated in diamond armor too! That's nonrenewable, is it not? =P

MetaEd

@Tonepoet No, just a tie and a flameproof helmet.

Tonepoet

@MetaEd Oh, so those aren't your bulking biceps! It's hard to tell when everything is so... flat. =P Still, I'm not sure if that makes it better or worse. I've never seen another diamond tie before. Surely it must be rare.

MetaEd

It's standard issue.

Mitch

6:25 PM

@MetaEd Harvard Business Review recommends the diamond tie, along with power brunch and a 20/20 vision statement

Tonepoet

6:37 PM

@Mitch @MetaEd Don't forget the birthday suit to go with the tie! >_>

SmokeDetector

7:20 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: Em dash vs semicolon: which is more appropriate in the following examples? by Tina on english.SE

Matt E. Эллен

8:37 PM

@SmokeDetector that's weird. that seems like a reasonable answer. but there is a random link in the middle of it

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен The answer was (auto-)copied from the answer above it.

SmokeDetector

9:13 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive answer detected: Is a vendor also a maintenance worker? by Mark Melo on english.SE

Matt E. Эллен

9:40 PM

@Cerberus I see! devious

SmokeDetector

10:20 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Mostly dots in answer: Difference Between "Plot" and "Storyline" by donuts on english.SE

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…