English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Færd

19:00

Yeah, comparatively Obama may seem like a god or something, but who says you have to compare?

Or that you have to compare in this particular way?

I'm not talking to someone in particular, obviously.

.

M.A.R.

;

Færd

Funny thing happened to me a few days ago. I had a Dutchman reassuring me that Iran is not actually how it is represented in the news.

To which I agree(d).

M.A.R.

@Færd Actually, he was picturing a war in his mind

Tonepoet

@Færd Despite whatever Obamacare may have you thinking, people don't always do things because they're mandated to do so. People have the discretion to do things voluntarily. =P I might also note that the Thanks Obama reddit became relatively sincere near the end of his term. >_>

Færd

But I can't stop grinning at the remembrance of his telling that.

M.A.R.

19:04

Reassuring Fard

Færd

@M.A.R. He worked in a tourism agency or something that arranged trips for European tourists in Iran.

He told me he hadn't encountered any security problems so far.

I wasn't that surprised, but he went on assuring me that Iran is not how the media says it is.

M.A.R.

The worst part is you were supposed to get surprised by that

@Færd Well, a decent portion of people in these chats that found out I live in Iran told me "is there a war over there" or something similar

Færd

@Tonepoet I'm more familiar with those policies of his that have more direct worldwide impact. Maybe Obamacare was the best choice for America's health problems. I don't know about that.

@M.A.R. Yeah, that's the kind of mindset for many people.

M.A.R.

@Færd You usually never know that stuff unless you live among the people

Færd

Well, you can get a taste from afar.

M.A.R.

19:09

And even then, it might not be enough if you're easily affected by mainstream gossips

Færd

Or a whiff.

M.A.R.

Or a taste whiff

Tonepoet

@Færd The only reason I mention it is because The Individual Mandate is a well known and contentious provision that led up to a supreme court case. 5-4 in favor, with the deciding vote being a very controversial reading of congressional tax powers. The other justices wanted to base it on the commerce clause.

Færd

Ah.

@Tonepoet Anyway, I don't think these kinds of people are not the best to be associated with logic et al.

I know I'm making too much of a random picture, so I rest my case here.

.

M.A.R.

;

Færd

19:18

I wonder, how often does an average person run into a mugger in different countries?

Especially in developed ones?

G'night.

Cerberus

@Færd It has never happened to me.

It's quite rare here.

But it happens.

You?

Mitch

@Færd When he was running for president back in 2007-2008. He's a legal scholar (taught at UChicago Law school) which supposedly is the cause for his slow deliberate educated speaking style (like he's weighing every word he's about to say).

Also GWB sounded like an idiot in comparison (to most anybody).

@Færd The US is the same way

Iceland however is exactly how they portray it in the media. Cold.

@M.A.R. There's a case to be made that 'living among the people' will also give you a skewed version of reality.

"Facts all come with points of view"

Talking Heads - Crosseyed And Painless (HQ)

►

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@Cerberus It'd be nice to know that stats. I hear things like 'In China, a young woman can walk around in the middle of the night and won't get bothered' or 'Every tourist I know who's been to Istanbul has been held up'

But those are just anecdotes. and crime records come with many systemic biases starting with reporting bias.

We can't know anything

sobs in hands

I once had my wallet returned to me in the Zurich train station. Which I thought was a hotbed of needle-swapping recidivists. I'm guessing they learned their lesson? I didn't even know I had lost it. I was ashamed and thankful at the same time. Maybe that was their sociopathic game, to shame people in public. That is the primary lesson here, that the Swiss are terrible people altogether.

Færd

19:48

@Cerberus Well, once a motorcyclists snatched some money out of my hand and sped away. Apart from that, I haven't been mugged or robbed in a public place.

Tonepoet

@Færd I think you could do worse than Obama. He's a well-spoken and charismatic. However with that having been said, I think I must agree. Obviously the best, person for the job is this guy:

Færd

But I have anecdotal knowledge of people being held up (at knife-point, mostly). I don't know of any accurate statistics.

@Tonepoet He's far from missing being the best.

@Mitch What point of view does that fact come with?

Tonepoet

@Færd Do you mean Leonard "Spock" Nimoy or Obama?

Færd

The latter.

Tonepoet

Ah, I see.

Mitch

20:00

@Færd Obama is far from missing being the best? Does that mean he's actually close to being the best?

@Færd haha, from experience.

Færd

@Mitch I should've said he's far from just missing being the best.

@Mitch What if in someone else's experience that fact is not true?

Answer: it would contradict itself.

It does, actually.

Cerberus

@Mitch I remember seeing somewhat similar stats for women across the world.

@Færd Good!

But do you walk home in the capital at night?

Mitch

@Færd so there's lots better US presidents? I thought the one thing that he did with respect to Iran would be considered on the positive side (in contrast to all US presidents since ... the 50's?

Cerberus

@M.A.R. There are many uninformed people around the world.

Mitch

@Færd To wrong paraphrase "I is not the case that facts are what is the case"

Cerberus

20:14

@Mitch That may very well be true.

But was there really a good president in the fifties?

Mitch

@M.A.R. people are idiots

oh. jinx with @Cerberus

@Cerberus Eisenhower defined the 50's for the US. w/o being too political, Eisenhower is not known for being a bad president.

Cerberus

But with respect to Iran.

Mohammad Mosaddegh

Mohammad Mosaddegh (Persian: محمد مصدق‎‎; IPA: [mohæmˈmæd(-e) mosædˈdeɣ]; 16 June 1882 – 5 March 1967), was an Iranian politician. He was the head of a democratically elected government, holding office as the Prime Minister of Iran from 1951 until 1953, when his government was overthrown in a coup d'état aided by the United States' Central Intelligence Agency and the United Kingdom's Secret Intelligence Service. An author, administrator, lawyer, and prominent parliamentarian, his administration introduced a range of progressive social and political reforms such as social security and land reforms...

This has been the worst attack on Iran perpetrated by the West since...a very long time ago?

Mitch

US bombed an Iranian Air flight in the 80's?

Cerberus

Its ill effects still define the country's modern problems.

@Mitch That was of little consequence to anyone not on that aeroplane...

Mitch

But do Iranian kids these days care about the 50's?

@Cerberus er... family in Iran? The nation of Iran? I think it'd be pretty upsetting to them.

but 'of consequence'? sure it is way less important than the actual CIA backed overthrow. One of the few instances where the conspiracy theory was true.

Cerberus

20:23

Right, but it's still nothing compared to the result of the CIA operation.

Færd

@Mitch You might find other things if you investigated deeper in that, like whether the deal was partly a front and major banks around the world didn't deal with Iran out of fear of the US even during Obama's presidency.

I'm not an expert in that matter. I don't know how to analyze it.

Cerberus

@Mitch They do, because they're not allowed to show their hair in public, because a new military class has usurped a large part of the economy and society, etc.

Færd

But I guess 'comparatively' he did treat Iran with more respect.

Cerberus

@Færd I think the Republican majority in parliament was to blame for that part?

Færd

Maybees.

Mitch

20:26

@Færd So the general view of Obama in Iran is negative? Or is that your view? (or both) and who would be considered the best US president for Iranians? (or you if different?)

Cerberus

It's like asking which helper-devil of the Big Satan is the best.

Færd

I wasn't talking about the best US president for Iranians. I don't know.

Cerberus

In popular opinion.

Mitch

oh..totally Wormwood.

@Færd Oh OK. Who then was the best for who?

Færd

@Cerberus The Iranian regime represented it as an ultimatum against Iran. The US reported it to be only a mistake, but I'd be skeptical.

@Mitch Who said someone's the best for someone else?

@Mitch Would you expand on that please?

That plain was shot down in the July of 1988, and the Iran-Iraq war was officially ended a couple month later.

Cerberus

20:34

But so what?

Mitch

@Færd Wittgenstein I:"The world is everything that is the case. I.1 The world is the totality of facts, not of things" p. 25I flipped the script because W is a douche.

Færd

Some say Iran could have fared better if the war had continued, but the US threatened it not to continue it.

Because they didn't want the war to have a winner.

It would have had serious consequences for the West.

Mitch

@Cerberus It looked really bad. whatever the intention or lack thereof, the US shot down civilians of a country labeled its enemy at the time.

Cerberus

Yes, but so what?

Færd

I meant that it indeed was a consequential event for Iran. It didn't merely affect those on the plane and no-one else.

Or it was, by some analyses.

Mitch

20:38

@Cerberus again, whatever the intention, that's a it callous. But the historical consequences? I think you're right that it only was one extra bad thing of many.

Færd

Man, it's really late.

@Mitch Can I catch up with that later? Or maybe we could pick up the discussion again from the start later?

Cerberus

@Mitch Right.

@Færd Sure, but still, its effects were nothing compared to those of the coup.

Færd

Hmm.

Mitch

@Færd It was in the news in the US, frankly more than any news about Iraq bombing the crap out of Iranian cities and using chemical weapons. Which was never mentioned at all in the US during the Iraqi/Gulf wars I and II.

@Færd totally.

Cerberus

But...that didn't happen during the Gulf Wars?

Iran wasn't involved?

Færd

20:41

@Cerberus Suppose Iran took over Saddam Hussein's territory. Wouldn't that have been a crisis?

Mitch

@Cerberus I think I can only respond 'hmm' also. the coup was important in fomenting US/West animosity. but I think the Shah himself was the main source there (but then the coup gave him more power).

Færd

I'm not comparing it to the coup, mind.

Cerberus

@Færd I was...

@Mitch Uhhh.

The coup changed daily life for all Iranians drastically in the long term.

It brought the Shah to power, which would probably not have happened otherwise.

Mitch

@Cerberus well, anyway, I brought it up as another event where the US did single-event bad things to Iran.

Cerberus

Which resulted in the Revolution.

Mitch

20:43

@Cerberus I blame Charlemagne

wait... Alexander

nope the turks.

Cerberus

OK but I think my point stands that the worst thing the West did to Iran happened in the fifties...

Mitch

really, all the problems in the middle east and India are the UKs fault and the US is just a proxy.

@Cerberus as far as single events are concerned. one could consider the constant economic blockade that much worse.

and with that I win the argument by leaving.

Cerberus

Perhaps.

Mitch

What? There's no argum

Færd

@Cerberus Get your point. I still can't quite compare the two things: the 50's coup, and the meddling after the Revolution (represented by that little plane).

Cerberus

20:46

@Mitch But the blockade wouldn't have happened without the coup...

Adios!

@Færd Why not?

Færd

Because both were enormously consequential for Iran.

Each more so in its specific ways.

Robusto

21:03

@RegDwigнt: Here's something for you to celebrate today. (In honor of 20 April.)

Hope everyone's celebrating 4/20 in high style. /nod

Wow, this room is about as exciting as an old-style Soviet Politburo meeting. Guess I'll take my high times badinage elsewhere. Laterz ...

SmokeDetector

21:33

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: "There isn't" vs. "there's not" by Alklckk on english.SE

Robusto

22:07

Wow, YouTube can be downright dangerous.

Funniest German Music Song

►

I mean, I've been high before, but never this high. There ought to be content warnings for this kind of thing.

MetaEd

22:36

@Robusto Give. Me. Those. Ten. Seconds. Back.

englishstudent

23:25

@Tonepoet Good point friendo. I suck at parsing sometimes, so at first I thought it was something like "(truck) stop prostitute" or "truck (stop prostitute)" which doesn't make sense of course. Yeah a hyphen will help.

Btw my reading comprehension is quite good, I just get slow sometimes. Human after all. =)

Cerberus

@Færd More examples from the OED, which calls it pleonastic and obsolete:

> †b. With pleonastic negative, or in an implied negative context. Obs. (Cf. scarce adv. 2b.)
c1369 Chaucer Dethe Blaunche 289 Ne [coude] nat scarcely Macrobeus+I trowe arede my dreames even.
c1400 Rom. Rose 5460 Than shulde they seen who freendis ware For of an hundred, certeynly, Nor of a thousand ful scarsly, Ne shal they fynde unnethis oon, Whan povertee is comen upon.
c1570 W. Wager The longer thou livest 177 (Brandl), Not one good man is scarsly among ten.
1795 Fate of Sedley II. 158 Recollection, however, returned before I had scarcely written a line.

englishstudent

23:42

Are both these equally correct: "Until I keep phoning them" and "Until I keep calling them"? Because I wrote the former somewhere a while ago.

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