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12:14 AM
@terdon Albanesisch and Tsakonisch, do they still speak those on the Peloponnese?
What is Albanesisch? Surely not the Albanian language?
 
Not that I know of. And I may well have known since my grandmother's maiden name is Tsakonas (same root).
If they are spoken, it's by some lost village in the mountains but I really doubt they are.
 
I know Tzakonisch is or was a Greek dialect.
OK.
And you know nothing about Albanian or some dialect with a name like Albanesisch?
Tsakonian or Tsaconian (also Tzakonian or Tsakonic, Greek and Tsakonian: τσακώνικα) is a highly divergent modern variety of Greek, spoken in the Tsakonian region of the Peloponnese, Greece. Tsakonian derives from Doric Greek, being its only extant variant. Although it is conventionally treated as a dialect of Greek, some compendia treat it as a separate language. Tsakonian is critically endangered, with only a few hundred, mostly elderly, fluent speakers left. It is mutually unintelligible with Standard Modern Greek. == Etymology == It is named after its speakers, the Tsakonians, which in turn...
Only a few hundred, elderly speakers!
And it's the only living Doric Greek!
Why isn't everyone protecting this?
 
@Cerberus Welcome to Greece. :(
 
1:02 AM
Hrrmm.
 
 
2 hours later…
2:54 AM
@Cerberus So what's going on with your election? Are you guys going to elect a Dutch Trump?
 
A Dutch Trump sounds like...a card game.
 
@Robusto Hello, hello.
Well, we do have a Trump.
 
Trump always goes Dutch.
 
But we only elect parliament.
Any potential leader would need a majority in both houses.
 
Majority rules.
 
2:57 AM
Currently the largest party is projected to get about 17% of the seats.
And our Trump (Wilders) 14%.
And almost all parties have already announced that they will not form a coalition with Wilders.
Whether or not he becomes the largest party doesn't really matter.
So don't believe the hysteria.
 
Deer especially.
 
Only one coalition of 4 parties is project to be possible. All other possible coalitions will require 5 or more parties.
Because the cordon sanitaire is laid around Wilders and his far right, any coalition is bound to be centre-left.
 
@Cerberus I've been in such hysteria since our election I think I now have PTSD.
@tchrist I saw what you did there ...
 
@Robusto Hmm that's not good.
Therapy?
 
@Cerberus Do you know of a good therapist who can remove Trump from office?
 
3:00 AM
 
I hope you understand that Trump is not actually part of the Republican Party. He took them over, and the party hoped to have a harmless idiot to sign their bills.
 
PVV is Wilders "Trump".
 
@Robusto Yes, but you have to add a space to that word.
 
@Robusto I happen to know one who does assassinations on the side.
 
@tchrist They've always plumped for brainless sounding boards, like Reagan and W.
 
3:01 AM
Apollo heals and shoots.
@tchrist Everyone knows.
 
@tchrist Hmm, but the definite article is so specific.
 
It's always easier to get the frog to do your bidding once pithed.
Therapist in Chief will be his own demise.
 
We're just a little bit disappointed at how meek parliament has behaved so far towards Trump, except McCain and perhaps a few others.
 
But this idiot is not harmless, and he's much the greater idiot than any before.
 
But look at how many of Trump's plans are being frustrated.
 
3:03 AM
Some are.
@Robusto I and many of closer friends are in nearly as damaged an emotional condition over this. Nightmares awake and asleep.
 
In two years, the Democrats may win parliament again, mayn't they?
 
@tchrist Yes.
 
@Cerberus I can't imagine us lasting two years. The umbrage rate makes each day like unto a month.
Or scandal rate, if you would.
 
@tchrist And I thought prolonging life would be a good thing.
 
The Republicans have until about summer to realize they have to turn upon him with the full weight of their office, or their seats are lost for a long time.
I say that because of the two-year election cycle.
 
3:07 AM
@tchrist A. They won't, and B. the latter might (frighteningly) not be true.
Trump voters are showing no buyers' remorse so far.
Wait till half of them lose their health care, though ...
 
More than the flapnoodles, yes.
Read: no spine, no dick.
 
I don't know what to make of Gorsuch, I really don't. I've not met the man, but I am not certain he is quite everything the wreckers would wish.
I'm delirious with fatigue toxins. Sorry.
 
It's obviously a rob-from-the-poor, give-to-the-rich ploy. Unquestionably.
But that has always been their goal.
 
3:12 AM
And it's still astounding that they get all the blue-collar workers to consistently vote against their own interests.
 
Constantly. Where's the Cicero quote when we need it?
Dec 25 '12 at 15:32, by tchrist
@RegDwighт “Non est enim consilium in volgo, non ratio, non discrimen, non diligentia, semperque sapientes ea quae populus fecisset ferenda, non semper laudanda dixerunt.” —Gaius Tullius Cicero, Pro Plancio IV.
Merry Christmas!
Lo these many years ago.
Surely that's vulgo.
 
On a more cheerful note, my new Spanish teacher, who is Ecuadorian, pronounces terminal and pre-consonantal n as /ŋ/. I didn't notice that with my other teachers. Is it regional?
 
Hm, maybe not. I dunno.
@Robusto Yes and no. They do that in most of Spain.
Certainly in Madrid they do.
Well, not pre-consonantal exactly.
 
Not always.
I haven't diligently catalogued her usages, but I notice that she does it more than the Argentinean and the Colombian.
 
There is only one nasal archiphoneme, //ɴ//, which manifests differently according to its surroundings. Things like /m/ and /n/ never contrast before a consonant; they merge.
They always pronounced my name /toŋ/
As though there were going to be an /ng/ there.
And that's a somewhat nasalized [õ] at least in Spain.
And the /t/ sounds like a [d] to Americans, but is just dental and unaspirated, not voiced.
Ok, so yes. This is normal. Think of the word pan.
 
3:20 AM
@tchrist I would have thought the shift would happen in reverse. Like sanbon becoming sambon ...
 
They say that with an /ŋ/ at the end.
@Robusto It does: un burro is mandatorily pronounced /um'buro/.
Terminal nasals ALWAYS assimilate. I don't believe this to be regional.
Regressive assimilation, so the upcoming sound colors the one behind it in time.
 
So I would do well to copy my new teacher in this?
 
I think everybody does this, although the pan [paŋ] thing you may not have noticed before, and it depends on the next word, too.
But in Spain it's always /ŋ/ at the end of an utterance.
That's not quite the right symbol but close enough.
 
Yeah, I really didn't notice it before. Not sure if it's because the others weren't doing it or I just didn't hear it.
 
> Los fonemas nasales /m/ y /n/ se neutralizan en posición de final de sílaba, asimilándose a la consonante siguiente. Los alófonos en los que se neutralizan dependerán del punto de articulación de la consonante a la que siguen.
> Ante bilabial el alófono será [m].
Ante labiodental el alófono será [ɱ].
Ante alveolar o pausa final absoluta el alófono será [n].
Ante palatal el alófono será [ɲ].
Ante velar el alófono será [ŋ].
Ante uvular el alófono será [ɴ].
So yes, that's everywhere. The end-of-utterance thing may be more "ng" in Ecuador and Colombia and Spain.
 
3:24 AM
And the funny thing is, I noticed something similar a lot in Japanese, they way a phrase like desu ga gets nasalized into something like des'ŋa.
 
Ok, it's that last one that's the right symbol for the end-of-utterance I was talking about.
> Ante uvular el alófono será [ɴ]
It's further back than the English sound in song even.
 
Ah.
Yeah, I think that's right. Further back ...
Because when I do my American ng it doesn't sound right.
 
The article suggests that this is global to all regions.
Right.
It wouldn't, quite.
 
But it's the go-to phoneme for my brain in that situation.
 
In the word fango or tengo you can do that, although that has a /g/ afterwards too.
 
3:27 AM
@tchrist Volgo is an alternative spelling.
 
Yeah. I think the tongue doesn't touch in the Spanish version, but does in English ng.
 
@Cerberus Metaphony??
@Robusto That's right.
 
Probably not.
 
I wouldn't have thought so; hence the double-interrogations.
 
3:29 AM
It's just that some phonological law in prehistoric Latin affected volgus, but the old form always remained in use as an alternative.
Something like that.
 
I looked up the quote and Google asked "Do you mean vulgo?"
 
It's how alternative spellings often come to be.
 
vulgus and vulgar and all that.
The commoners, the crowd.
 
Vulgo gives about twice as many results as volgo.
Rationes for other forms of the word are somewhat similar.
 
It meant something that they spelled these differently. It meant they said them differently.
Fancy that.
 
3:32 AM
It's funny, but I've recently gone through a metamorphosis similar to the one I went through at five when I learned to read. Back then, it was funny to me that now I couldn't not understand printed text. So now I'm going through something like that in Spanish. It's hard to remember what it was like not being able to understand it.
 
@Robusto See how the following nasal consonant always makes a nasal vowel there?
 
Kind of like Siegfried tasting the fat from the dragon's heart and suddenly being able to understand what the birds were saying.
@tchrist Yes.
 
Nobody ever teaches you actual Spanish phonology unless you're a major, and only them if you are very lucky. Most American instruction is hopeless for learning how to speak without sounding like a dumb gringo.
 
You should hear the dumb gringos in my class.
 
I know my mouth is set right, moves right, and it is really hard to explain to somebody who doesn't get it. They just don't understand they have to change from the loose articulation of Germanic languages to speak Romance.
 
3:35 AM
Some woman from Georgia speaks it in a Southern accent that makes no effort to duplicate the actual sounds or cadence of the language.
 
I've known people like that. Fingernails. Chalkboards.
> Aunque hay tres fonemas nasales en español y dos fonemas laterales, las consonantes laterales y nasales asimilan el lugar de articulación de las consonantes que les siguen incluso a través de límites de palabra.
That sort of crap nobody is ever told, and it is critical.
Don't ask me why it's dative les not accusative there.
Because I don't know why. It just sounds right. I can think of no rule.
 
Seemed natural to me.
 
They use le/les a lot with "usted", and you will be used to that there, too. Or le llaman Pipi or whatever.
 
@Robusto See? Progress! Very good.
 
Oh this link is better: es.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
> En hablas meridionales de España, y también en Galicia, como en el Caribe hispanohablante /N/ se puede pronunciar de forma velar [ŋ] o [ɱ] cuando se halla en sílaba trabada ante cualquier consonante o en final absoluto de palabra; corazón [ko̞ɾa̠ˈsõ̞ŋ].
 
3:40 AM
@Robusto It always surprises me, how much of a difference there is between people's non-native accents.
 
I wonder if that isn't what you're hearing in your Ecuadorian person.
 
How come some people sound like they aren't trying at all? Are they? Or aren't they?
 
@tchrist That very well could be.
 
@Cerberus There's an abstruse neo-Odyssean quote that applies here if I could ever find it.
 
@Cerberus I think they just don't hear a difference. It all gets translated by their brain into the LEGO phonemes they grew up with.
 
3:44 AM
aristeia
No pursuit of excellence.
No discernment, nor volition.
 
Me, I've always been pretty sharp about accents. Which may be why I never had a problem in France, even though I had only the barest smattering of the language. I would at least pronounce it close to the way they did, so they understood what I was trying to say and then forgave me a little.
But the funny thing about accents is, I can duplicate them when I hear them (fairly closely) but each person's accent is different, and it's hard to know what to copy as general usage and what to leave alone as idiolectical.
 
You have to let it drone in your head from many different speakers for "a long" time.
 
Yes. That must be the answer.
 
So it can blend and become unconscious.
 
I need to go and live in a Spanish-speaking country for a time.
 
3:50 AM
I don't know how else to do it, honestly, than compulsory emersion.
 
Ha, did you just coin that term? It fits.
 
It can wear you down though.
I'm licensed to do that.
 
Maybe I'll winter in Costa Rica next time the sun heads south.
 
It's been nice and warm here the past few days.
Not that it was ever very cold, but I'm tired of it.
 
It's been wonderful here. 70s going to 80s next week.
 
3:54 AM
We haven't seen 80s yet, although we have seen mid-70s.
 
I rode in shorts and short-sleeve jersey today.
 
I'm in shorts and a t-shirt today, yes.
 
This is what I really resent about climate change. It's like I can't feel good whenever it's unseasonably warm.
Or at least unequivocally good.
 
The sun's first warmth upon one's face in the pre-spring is never wrong.
 
We get 330 days a year of sunshine here, and I cherish every single one.
 
4:01 AM
I don't know whether it's the altitude or the latitude, but the sun here warms you whenever it strikes you, even in winter.
 
I think the altitude helps a lot.
 
And that didn't happen in Wisconsin.
 
Or in Massachusetts.
Here it's always pretty comfortable if the sun is out.
Cold isn't as cold and hot isn't as hot ... unless you're in the sun in July, and then it can fry you into hash browns in short order.
But if you're in the shade, even 100 degrees isn't really hot.
Whereas in Boston it would be downright murderous.
Anyway, off to bed. Night all.
 
Night
@Robusto Yes, all that. I don't know that people can believe it who only live in a wet place.
 
5:15 AM
@Robusto Quite possibly. It's just so odd!
Good night.
@tchrist The Space Odyssey?
 
6:09 AM
Cya pal.
 
6:39 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Pattern-matching product name in body: Is this construction correct? "Today is [(pro)noun] [gerund]" by Typo on english.SE
 
 
1 hour later…
7:43 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body: look elegant projects radley Umbrellas by radlelgl on english.SE
 
 
3 hours later…
10:33 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: Statement ending in "should" by Amit on english.SE
 
 
2 hours later…
12:28 PM
@Cerberus yep, half Dutch
 
12:51 PM
@Robusto Humidity plays a big role. As does Fahrenheit vs Celsius, of course. :)
 
 
1 hour later…
2:03 PM
@Lawrence Sexagesimal scales applying to humidity not just to temperature is a new one on me, but I like it. We may, however, have to find some correspondingly circular substitute for percentage that avoids the taboo notion of centessence inappropriate impliedly by that term. Pertrisexagint is a tad awkward, but I wonder whether we couldn't misreäppropriate some permeridional term from meri dies given how the Fahrenheit scale used but half the circle.
 
 
1 hour later…
3:30 PM
@tchrist Actually, I was just referring to what makes one feel warm.
What you've described is more appropriate to measures of time and angles, but here's a circular barometer. You might be able to replace the markings with something more to your liking. :)
(My Latin is almost non-existent so I'll bow out of that discussion before I embarrass myself further.)
 
4:13 PM
 
Are you sure Homer uses Ἀθήνη for Athens and not for Athena? I just had a quick (far from comprehensive) look and the only cases of Ἀθήνη I could find referred to the goddess, not the city. I found a few references to the city but all were in the plural. — terdon 6 mins ago
@Cerberus can you confirm that?
Certainly what it looks like to my limited understanding of Ancient Greek.
 
4:56 PM
In my limited understanding of nonsense, what sort of megalomania induced the citizens of Megalopolis to name their city in such a self-aggrandizing manner?
 
5:27 PM
@terdon I don't remember. However, that would be an excellent question on latin.stackexchange.com!
I have managed to lobby hard enough for Ancient Greek to be included.
 
perhaps expand into all the dead languages!
 
and all living languages!
and all invented languages!
and all computer languages!
and all imaginary languages!
 
@MattE.Эллен Who you calling dead??
I'll call you dead and make it so!
 
Know what's dead? My Nexus 5x
I was innocently using it to kill zombies in a game, and poof, dead.
 
5:43 PM
Oh, no!
What happened to it?
My G2 is going strong.
 
He threw it at a zombie.
 
It's a smart phone, not for dumb people.
 
Yeah, it should be thrown at smart people.
 
Are zombies smart?
I only wish I had more RAM. Otherwise my phone is still pretty good.
 
External?
 
5:45 PM
How does that work?
 
I guess I mixed it up with external memory. Never mind.
 
Ah, no, it's working memory.
Not storage.
 
Right.
 
@Cerberus Zombies can be quite smart and intelligent.
 
You speak from experience?
 
5:54 PM
Have you met one in flesh? Or vice versa?
 
Here you go:
> Intelligent zombies are the rare instances where the zombie condition does not completely eradicate all evidence of thought. Some works of fiction depict zombies with personality and intelligence, the only difference being their hunger for flesh.
 
I bet you can find dumb zombies or cute zombies or bisexual zombies or whatever kind you like on the net.
That don't give them any authenticity.
What are real zombies like?
 
It is all fiction obviously.
 
I mean real fictitious ones.
 
If I haven't sleep for more than 30 hours I become a real one sometimes.
Except I don't eat people. Of course.
 
6:04 PM
Very cute.
I have to vote today.
 
That's better. Now I can believe that smart zombies exist.
 
Thanks. :)
 
But what party to vote for?
 
BTW, last night I found out that there are people who identify as vampires.
 
People who declare that they are vampires?
People say stuff. It happens.
 
6:05 PM
@Cerberus I don't know but vote for anyone who treats people equally and is not biased.
You mean in real life right?
 
Yes.
 
Ah cool.
 
That leaves quite a few parties!
 
@Cerberus Yeah. They think they aren't people. They have different kinds too. Some drink blood regularly.
 
6:06 PM
Where's the election?
 
They "think": either they play rather than think, or they are crazy.
In the Netherlands.
For parliament.
I wouldn't vote for religious parties, nor for the far right.
 
Ah. I'm not familiar with any of the candidates.
 
All other parties I wouldn't exclude.
Understandable.
 
@Cerberus So what's your favorite party? I mean if you don't mind writing it here. I understand if you don't to say it out loud.
 
We have the old people's party, the animal party, the liberal socialists, the greens, the liberal conservatives, the more pronounced socialists, the centre-liberals-reformers...
@englishstudent I don't know.
 
6:09 PM
oh
What's the "animal party" for?
 
If the Pirate Party were a respectable party, I'd vote for them.
@englishstudent For animal rights, mostly.
 
I'm too lazy to hit Google now.
 
Don't worry, no need to Google anything.
 
hah I see
 
They have managed to outlaw circus animals.
Which I don't agree with: there should be very strict rules about the living conditions of circus animals, but I don't think they should be banned altogether.
 
6:11 PM
Amersterdam is a nice place. I would move there at a drop of a hat.
 
Yay!
 
It's quite a long way.
 
True.
Also girls are gorgeous there I hear. ;-)
 
Come on. You're from INDIA.
 
6:13 PM
I know. I know. :)
 
@Cerberus That's too sentimental to you? I can understand that.
As if it's unfair to teach them to perform for people no matter what.
 
@Færd Something like that.
As if they were better off in the wild.
 
So the animal party advocates for the fauna, and the green party for the flora. Shouldn't they reconcile and become one?
 
If that is the case, then explain why living in the wild is better for them, and create rules based on that.
@Færd Haha.
Well, they are close in many respects.
 
That's what makes me wonder.
 
6:16 PM
Another issue I have with the animal party is that they are led by at least two evangelical Christians...
Although they never refer to that fact themselves, nor do they evangelise in public, so far as I know.
It's some kind of modern orthodox sect.
 
Ah, so you question their motivation.
 
Well, I think they believe in their programme, I don't think they're trying to mislead people.
But I don't want to see them in power.
 
Hmm.
 
Christians are a minority in the country, but their parties always seem to want to restrict the freedom of others.
 
I wonder if that's a stereotype. Christians is a bit too broad. And you said some of them don't emphasize on the fact that they are religious.
Sometimes people can feel threatened by each other for no good reason.
 
6:24 PM
@Færd Why do you think it's too broad?
All Christian parties (3) want less freedom than the centre parties do.
 
Because there are all kinds of religious people.
 
The moderate Christian party still wants to make cannabis illegal and probably euthanasia too.
 
OK. Christian parties is not the same as Christians.
 
Of course liberal Christians exist.
 
@Cerberus Heh, I read that cannibals.
 
6:25 PM
Never judge an individual by the group you perceive him to be in!
Hah.
No, they're pro-cannibalism, of course.
But Christians are, on average, significantly less liberal than non-religious people.
Which, again, tells you nothing about individual people.
 
Figures.
 
The most orthodox Christian party was recently forced by the constitution to accept female candidates.
 
Oh.
Have they won a major election ever?
 
Never.
They always have around 1 or 2% of the seats.
 
Sometimes I feel like it's the far right that defines the (far) left.
 
6:28 PM
I'm not so sure about smart zombies guys. I mean I hate to sound prejudiced against the undead, but we need a metric by which we can call something a zombie before we can consider if any of them are intelligent. Individual works of fiction are a little fast and loose with the rules, which is fine within certain tolerances since it's the author's prerogative to toy around with alternative histories to make their own criteria, but if you go too far you end up with Sparking Vampire Syndrome.
 
How would you characterize the left in Netherlands?
 
The evangelical party doesn't have that anti-women issue, but they are still against most recent freedoms like legalised cannabis, abortion, euthanasia, gay equality, etc. They are only fairly green and socialist.
 
Against abortion == anti-woman
 
@Færd Well, there is the greenish side, which is the animal party and the greens, who are fairly socialist and very much pro-enivronment. They're also very liberal, except perhaps in that they want to restrict freedom of speech with respect to insulting groups.
The liberal socialists are very much centre in all respects, just a little bit more in favour of taxes and welfare.
The hardcore socialists are a bit less liberal and more about higher taxes and welfare.
The liberal democrats/reformers are very liberal; economically, they're centre.
How would you describe the left in your country?
 
@Tonepoet Interesting. Could you please define "Sparking Vampire Syndrome"? Because I'm just staring at chat now, and don't feel like Googling anything.
 
6:33 PM
@Cerberus Huh? On latin.se? Why?
 
P.S. By liberal I meant mainly socially liberal; economically liberal, a bit less so.
@terdon Because it's about Greek!
 
@Cerberus No, why would you want Greek to be on topic on Latin Language?
129
Greek Language

Proposed Q&A site for linguists, teachers and students of modern and Ancient Greek Languages

Currently in definition.

 
@englishstudent In the Twilight series, the vampires sparkled like diamonds in sunlight rather than being destroyed by it.
 
@KitZ.Fox Oh I see. Thank you.
 
10
Q: What should we do with Greek questions?

Joonas Ilmavirta(The moderator team has drafted this question and two answers together, with help from SE staff.) There was a meta discussion about allowing Greek on the site some time ago, but the conclusion was somewhat unclear. It was a fruitful first discussion, but it would be good to have an actual policy...

Maybe we'll stop accepting Greek once GL goes live.
 
6:35 PM
@englishstudent Worth further note is that many people complain about Twilight for whatever reason. Sparkling vampires have become somewhat of a joke as a result.
 
The writing was good. The story was not so much.
And the last in the series couldn't be a better example of Mary Sue.
 
The heroine miraculously skips over all the bad and difficult parts of being a vampire to save everyone!
Phew.
It was so hard to choose between those two perfect boys too.
 
@KitZ.Fox: Could you lock that question that was recently edited by its author? english.stackexchange.com/questions/311558/…
 
@sumelic Thanks.
I did get notified, I just hadn't gotten to it yet.
 
6:46 PM
@Cerberus Which tells me some of the righteous rightists probably get offended by open criticisms.
Although duh, it's always like that.
@Cerberus Well, I'd have to think about that. much of them are not in the country.
They have emigrated. Although not all of them.
 
@Færd Quite possibly, yes. But the greens also get offended easily.
@Færd Hah, right, that makes sense.
 
Those who gained substantial popular recognition were actually all inclined to the center somehow: religious figures who called for minor/major reforms in the current way of government.
 
Like Rohani and Khatami...
 
That's why I said the right defines the left. I should revise that and say the right that has absolute power determines at what practical fronts the left is going to battle.
 
I understand your analysis.
But you could say that whichever party is in power determines what fronts the opposition will be at.
The right is not in power here.
 
6:51 PM
Power is different from absolute power. You can maintain power without dictating the identity of the opposition, but with absolute power it's different.
That's why some of the opposition get out: they can't remain what they are while in the country.
I don't know much about politics anyway...
 
I know they are prosecuted.
Do you think the Whatsisname Council will appoint a more moderate or liberal Supreme Leader when Khamenei dies?
I read that moderates were supposed to have won a majority in that council?
 
The chance of that happening died with Rafsanjani. Or really diminished.
 
WTF, he died!
Why wasn't that on the news?
Have I forgotten?
Too bad.
 
It was on the news!
 
Maybe not here!
 
6:57 PM
Our news, that is. :P
 
Which is odd.
Hmm I see it was all over the news.
 
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