English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

user227867

12:07 AM

@Tonepoet Ah I see, they told me I had to get some other accessory to transfer files instead.

@JasperLoy The tricky thing about it is that it has a different shape. I think you might need an adapter of some sort, if not only for that reason.

It might be just a cable though.

user227867

Anyway, the price is too expensive for me to afford.

Tonepoet

More importantly, there's only the one port on the whole thing, including for power. Apple's design is completely moronic.

user227867

Interesting fact: The OALD has more words than the Compact OED of Current English and also the Compact OED for Students. 185000, 150000 and 144000 respectively

user227867

This makes me wonder why Oxford even publishes the latter two...

user227867

12:11 AM

Maybe they won't do it again.

user227867

The ODE has 350000 and the Concise OED 240000.

Tonepoet

@JasperLoy The word selection might be different, the definition selection might be different and there might be more emphasis on American phraseology

It might be a good idea to wonder what Oxford defines as a word for the last reason.

user227867

I might end up getting ODE or Concise OED, we will see. But note that both lack full IPA, only has partial IPA

user227867

@Tonepoet Or rather, how they count their entries in each case.

user227867

The OED and SOED and OALD has full IPA. The ODE and Concise OED don't.

user227867

12:14 AM

So if you check the last two, you will see that 'abbey' and 'abbot' and 'aback' for example has no IPA.

Tonepoet

Perhaps it's useful for people reading the transcript, but phonetic transcription something that vaguely disinterests me. I have a vernacular understanding of how to pronounce basic words, and if I want to know how a specific word is pronounced, I think it's faster and easier to listen to a sound recording. There's no need for me to learn a whole new alphabet just for that.

user227867

The full IPA for all languages is massive, but the English subset is very simple and can be learnt in 15 minutes or so...

user227867

One also may not have access to recordings.

user227867

I am going to bed, good night.

Tonepoet

@JasperLoy G'night.

Mitch

2:31 AM

@Tonepoet technology currently allows that but there's no definitive, comprehensive pronunciation set. Forvo is getting there. But philosophically, and in deference to 18thc enlightenment, a written (in letters) text with stipulated sounds for each glyph is much more convenient in so many ways than a recording. A string of a handful of letters (throw in some weird IPA diacritics) can be compared and discussed and corrected and everything else much more determinsitically than a recording.

Writing includes everything that is necessary and removes all unnecessaries (yes, I should follow up with how IPA misses so much about an accent)

tchrist

@Tonepoet Wait, you didn't learn IPA yet? We talked about this days ago!

Tonepoet

Sit me in the corner with a dunce cap @tchrist.

Mitch

@Tonepoet No, I understand what repeating does. I've just never heard anything like what I think that spells at the beginning of a sentence. Canadians stereotypically end sentences with 'eh' meaning 'isn't that so'. Are you emulating Canadians? Do Canadians put it at the front too? Or is it some other vowel sound I've never heard before?

Tonepoet

@Mitch Eh, what's up doc?

Mitch

@Tonepoet it's just the vowels that are the difficulty. also j.

@Tonepoet Oh. Hm. So you talk like a Californian trying to sound like a rabbit trying to sound like they're from some imagined concept of someone from the Bronx?

@Lawrence argh... canonical meaning... of course every word has whole sets of ancillary meanings and idioms that may contradict.

@Lawrence That is not an inconsistent tableau of words, but it doesn't say anything.

@Tonepoet Oh. The other hard part is typing it. but google 'IPA keyboard'. or go to ipa.typeit.org

Tonepoet

2:44 AM

@Mitch @Mitch Hah, you get it somewhat. I'm also influenced by Japanese anime. I'm somewhat surprised though, all of the dictionaries I've been consulting since you've asked use an ā sound. I've rarely heard pronounced like that in person and it just makes me think of The Fonz too much.

Mitch

@Tonepoet yes, it seems so. from wikipedia it seems that the time period is during the worldwide depression not terribly long after wwiii.

@Tonepoet like 'hey' but without the 'h'?

@JasperLoy I can come up with more words than that.

Tonepoet

@Mitch Yeah. When I say it, it's more like Meh without the M.

Mitch

Of course I can't. that sounds crazy. They must be including all sorts of weird things. or things you would expect as different words.

like possessives. or something.

SnoMed (a medical terminology) claims > 400K words.

medicine is complex, but not that complex

they probably using some half assed tokenization of the web. with misspellings and everything.

tchrist

@Tonepoet Like Jasper said, it takes like 15 minutes.

Mitch

@Tonepoet oh. If you listen to Bugs Bunny, you'll hear an entirely different sound. closer to 'æ:', not at all like Fonzie or m-less 'meh'

tchrist

2:50 AM

Wabbit

Tonepoet

@Mitch I have been Mitch.

I don't have his accent though obviously, so there's going to be some variation.

@tchrist The sad thing about Elmer is that if he ever does succeed in his goal of killing da wabbit, he's going to have a tormented soul. It just puts him in a pitiably hopeless position.

Granted, since Elmer will be miserable either way, that's just all the more reason to root for Bugs.

Mitch

æ = front near-low

@Tonepoet I don't remember you ever being me.

Tonepoet

@Mitch People with split personalities only rarely, if ever, remember the actions of their alternative personas. ;-)

tchrist

What's the plural possessive of His Holiness?

Vatican usage in English tends to avoid using the " 's " to show possession. The Vatican employs phrases such as the "HOMILY OF HIS HOLINESS JOHN PAUL II" to show possession. All in all. tchrist's answer is quite correct. — Ken Graham 1 min ago

Some day I shall gain a gold badge is possession!

Tonepoet

@tchrist "Bloodshed" is the plural possessive of His Holiness, because like The Highlander, there can only be one. =P

tchrist

3:03 AM

And then all the daemons shall kneel before me!

But we have His Holiness Pope Emeritus Benny and His Holiness Papa Paco. So we have Their Holiness or Their Holinesses?

Their Holinesses’ samite robes.

Tonepoet

Hmm, well, I'd hesitate to call a retired man by the formal address of an office he no longer holds...

tchrist

That depends on the office.

It is correct to address a retired military officer that way.

And incorrect not to.

Tonepoet

Leaders are different though. Bill's no longer President Clinton.

tchrist

Yes he is.

He's simply no longer the president. But he is still President Clinton by title.

He was the Commander in Chief. He holds that title for life.

Trust me on this one.

I know whereof I speak.

Tonepoet

I've never heard of anybody referring to a U.S. President by a title other than ex-President.

tchrist

3:11 AM

You may be unaware of diplomatic protocols. You may be unhappy with them. But these are the rules.

We're talking about two different things.

His actual title, particularly in the vocative, must be President Clinton.

Yes, he is a former president.

But his title of address remains President Clinton or Mister President for life.

Look it up.

Tonepoet

That sounds vaguely like a title of nobility, which The United States can't technically grant under the constitution. . .

tchrist

Second, don’t capitalize articles before proper nouns.

First, these are the rules, and you can look them up.

Tonepoet

I'm not trying to be unreasonable, but I probably wouldn't call anybody but the current president Mr. President, and probably still not the current one, unless I'm really Marilyn Monroe. >_>

tchrist

President Obama also holds that title for life. It is a title. An honorific. It is related to military honors.

Tonepoet

With most military officers it makes sense because they can often resume their post though.

tchrist

3:19 AM

This isn't a matter of argument.

Lawrence

@Mitch What I meant was that reading and listening are simply two modes of receiving information. The goal of both is the same, though - understanding. It's like going to LA via bus or on the plane. Getting there via a different route doesn't give the place a different name.

tchrist

> CITE-10 USC Sec. 772 01/03/2012 (112-90) TITLE 10 - ARMED FORCES Subtitle A - General Military Law PART II - PERSONNEL CHAPTER 45 - THE UNIFORM  Sec. 772. When wearing by persons not on active duty authorized
(c) A retired officer of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps may bear the title and wear the uniform of his retired grade.
(e) A person not on active duty who served honorably in time of war in the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps may bear the title, and, when authorized by regulations prescribed by the President, wear the uniform, of the highest grade he…

That is the law authorized by Congress in 10 US Code 772 Section (e).

Tonepoet

It'd be better not to bring the law into it unless there's legal precedence to back it up. It's possible that the same could be said of anybody...

Tonepoet

4:03 AM

@tchrist Good faith research in The Forms of Address sections of my Merriam-Webster's New International Dictionaries isn't too fruitful. The Second and Third Editions give you some options, but there's no comprehensive data regarding retirement and they admit to limited info. I thought it was interesting that the Third Edition dropped Mr. President as an option, when the Second Edition dropped it. There was enough blank space next to Sir to do it in the Third, like they had it in the Second.

user227867

4:57 AM

I am Mr President.

Lawrence

5:28 AM

"Mr . T" claimed that his first name was Mister, last name T, middle name 'the period' (calling it the full stop doesn't have the same ring in this context, unfortunately). I suppose someone could try changing their name to Mr President :P . I'm guessing that the reviewers at the relevant agencies wouldn't allow it, though.

I'd like to revise that comment - calling it the "Full Stop" would have a better ring to it in the case of Mr . T.

Tarun

Could someone help me understand the following sentence from Wren and martin "It is a common mistake to use I for me,
when the pronoun is connected by a conjunction (and, or) with some other word in the accusative case."

NVZ

6:24 AM

I need two downvotes on this proposal of mine. It will then be automatically removed:

english.stackexchange.com/tags/expression-requests/synonyms

user227867

6:35 AM

@NVZ Why do you want people to downvote you?

NVZ

6:58 AM

@JasperLoy because I see no other option to withdraw my proposal. Apparently -2 score is all it takes to remove it.

And also, my proposal was made months ago. Now that I've learned more about these tags, I have changed my mind regarding this.

user227867

8:25 AM

@Tonepoet I was reading reviews of dictionaries. Although Collins English Dictionary contains twice as many words as ODE, it has less quotations that show word usage, and the extra vocabulary is mostly obscure or archaic words. So if your focus is today's English, then the ODE seems to be a better choice, and the Concise OED is just a chopped down version of the ODE.

user227867

9:55 AM

Boo!

Helmar

10:59 AM

@NVZ I tried, somehow I am not eligible to vote on that :/

user227867

@NVZ Maybe you can contact a moderator if you want.

user227867

Morning @Kit. Enjoy the rest of your vacation.

Matt E. Эллен

should this be migrated to ELL?

0

Q: Are you asking about vs Did you mean

Ho do you reply to some one if you are confused about their question? Eg: some one mailed me "How are you ensuring that the box is there" I am confused about whether he meant about Box A or Box B. How would I reply asking for clarifying the same?

Helmar

11:19 AM

@MattE.Эллен I'd migrate

Tarun

People from neighbouring districts had converged on the temple to witness the show

or

People from neighbouring districts had converged at the temple to witness the show

Which preposition is correct to use in the above sentence "on" or at"

Matt E. Эллен

I think the usual co-location is "converged on"

Tarun

@MattE.Эллен Yes, Thank You

Helmar

11:37 AM

It is books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=converge+*_ADP&year_start=1800&yea‌r_end=2000

damn

Can I somehow post a link with an asterisk in it?

Mitch

11:53 AM

No. It's a regex thing

Maybe pu []() around it?

like this?

Hm...I guess not

Helmar

12:27 PM

We should get SE to handle gram links specially

38

Q: Which links and sites are handled specially in chat?

There is special linking to some sites in chat. What is the full list of supported and integrated sites? Return to FAQ index

support faq chat hyperlinks onebox

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch you missed the closing parenthesis

Helmar

Ngram

Perfect :)

It automatically replaces the asterisk

DEAD

@Helmar One-boxing, you mean?

Helmar

@DEAD Yeah

Nice little graph in chat

DEAD

I'm not sure it's being linked to often enough to warrant a change, and I'm not even sure what the criteria for being a onebox candidate is.

Helmar

12:40 PM

Fancy Ngram

DEAD

But I think if you ask on meta.ELU, they'll implement it locally.

Helmar

@DEAD Neither do I

I can't access chat via the queries, can I?

hm, doesn't look like it

But the word ngram was used 236 times in chat

Not sure that warrants a request

Actually there is already a meta post

12

Q: Chat-room one-boxing for Google n-grams

The Chat room can one-box lots of things, like wikipedia links and youtube videos, making nice neat messages. In ELU chat it would be very useful to be able to one-box Google ngram links, to show the graph as returned by Google. I'd like to post a link like this: https://books.google.com/ng...

feature-request

Mitch

1:40 PM

@MattE.Эллен Oh.

I blame George Bush

@Lawrence Yes, I understood that. Presenting that information in the form of an analogy doesn't add anything, there's no analogy to be made. Also, it is factually wrong to connect reading or listening to understanding, neither imply understanding. Only listening implies attentiveness. Reading just means your eyes scanned some words on a page (and maybe translated to sounds internally).

Matt E. Эллен

1:56 PM

Reading implies a city in Berkshire

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…