English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2016-08-15 (page 1 of 4)

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12:59 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive answer detected: Phrase for criticism/insults concealed with humor by wochenweise on english.stackexchange.com

1 hour later…

2:28 AM

I've learnt something new. Which just makes @deadrat's use of it even more offensive. There is no comparison between the well-meaning users of this site trying to uphold the consensus site standards and Islamic religious police enforcing Sharia law. You're right that it's not a joke. — curiousdannii 1 min ago

2:45 AM

I feel like adopting the CPVPV, even metaphorically, is beyond acceptable. But it's not directly flaggable. Any thoughts?

3:14 AM

@curiousdannii It could be argued that it violates the "Be nice" guidelines mentioned in this question . Also I vaguely disagree, although the statement is incredibly hyperbolic, there is a slight relationship in that those sorts of Islamic cultures also have a cultural consensus regarding upholding their ethical standards, no matter how disagreeable we may find them.

The idea he's trying to convey, is that we're far too strict and possibly to our own detriment. I was just looking at E.L.L. today and I'm not entirely sure if that website is a success. Well, it's successful but perhaps not to the end we wanted it to be.

I'm more intimidated by the questions being asked there than here.

user227867

Hi. I have a lot of phlegm and stomach acid these days, which makes it hard to record videos.

user227867

I saw deadrat's meta post. So much drama.

user227867

I propose that SE do away with downvotes. What do you think?

user227867

I think it is enough to have upvotes only.

3:29 AM

If we're going to suggest such drastic changes, I say we keep the down-votes and kill the close-votes.

user227867

Since you brought in close votes, I suggest we kill them as well.

We could spend more time answering questions than trying to force them through red tape frivolously.

@Tonepoet Both are terrible ideas and will never happen :)

user227867

I am now beginning to think that SE is filled with a bunch of wannabes who think they are superior to others by viciously downvoting them.

ELU might not be completely successful, but the SE format is in general. Get rid of down and close votes and it will just become Yahoo Answers.

3:31 AM

@JasperLoy You'd like to down-vote down-votes and close-vote close-votes? :)

user227867

The truth is that SE is not much better than Yahoo answers.

user227867

@Lawrence Hehe. By the way, are you a student or a lecturer or a professor? Just curious.

Hmm, what does Quora do?

user227867

Also, I propose that we merge ELU and ELL. Until now I still don't see that much difference. Just bringing these up now and then. I have said these many times over time.

@Tonepoet Nag you to sign up and log in

@JasperLoy Well you've only been a member for four days, so I'd suggest you don't have a very wide experience of the network.

3:34 AM

@curiousdannii That's too true and why I don't have an account, although it's easy to bypass the nag screen.

user227867

@curiousdannii Hehe, actually I have been a member since 2011, but I have deleted over twenty accounts and 50 thousand rep.

user227867

This is not a joke.

Why?

@JasperLoy :) . My formal studies were completed years ago. I've tutored and guest-lectured, but didn't stay in academia long enough to be a professor. I'm still learning, though, and teaching as well, though not in a formal sense in my discipline.

@JasperLoy Ragequit?

user227867

3:37 AM

Well, my deletions are mostly due to my mental instability I think.

user227867

It is well known that I am mentally ill.

@JasperLoy I didn't know that. Sorry to hear it.

user227867

By the way @curiousdannii Is Dannii a real name spelling?

@JasperLoy It's a nickname

user227867

@Lawrence Interestingly, three logicians, Herbert Enderton, George Boolos, and Clifford Spector, all died from cancer.

user227867

3:49 AM

I am going to eat lunch now. You all have a good day.

(Well, even guest-lecturing might be a stretch.)

@JasperLoy Enjoy your lunch.

4:40 AM

Here's an internationally famous writer for you, not knowing the difference between the passive and the progressive: youtu.be/R66eQLLOins?t=364

Not knowing that was standing is in the active and not passive is one thing (which is not that bad, unless you're a famous author), but it's quite another to assert a statement that you are so clueless about so strongly as to to speak on behalf of every expert in that field. I have the misfortune to have read one of his works, and I encountered this arrogant attitude throughout it all.

I cannot even finish watching this one: youtube.com/watch?v=tq6be-CZJ3w&feature=youtu.be&t=364 Dude! talking about a complex thing in a simple yet accurate way is not necessarily simple enough for a layman like yourself to do!

1 hour later…

5:45 AM

From what little I know, I want to say that The Elements of Style was a disaster and I only have secondhand knowledge of the book.

Granted, that implies I have firsthand knowledge of other texts so...

user227867

6:26 AM

@Tonepoet It is widely known that that book is a disaster.

user227867

@Tonepoet Want to read a really good grammar book not too thick? A Student's Introduction To English Grammar by Huddleston and Pullum.

If I read a grammar book it's probably going to be A Modern English Grammar by Noah Webster. Did you know that he virtually came up with the idea for the determiner?

Like, over a century before Leonard Bloomfield even came up with the name.

user227867

I see. Of course, the authoritative grammar today is The Cambridge Grammar Of The English Language by Huddleston and Pullum.

Webster preferred to call them Definitives though. Fascinating stuff. Maybe I've jumped ahead though, since you have to read his opinion on Articles first, as well as his An entry to appreciate it.

user227867

I have thought about it and decided that instead of feeling bitter about the arrogant users of English SE, I shall post more answers to help people who need it.

6:33 AM

That's a positive attitude.

user227867

I would like to recommend another book, Grammatically Correct by Stilman, which is an excellent usage guide covering punctuation and style among other things.

user227867

8:26 AM

Hello @matt! It's a Monday!

Hmm, most of the time, if I need to quote a grammar book for a question I like to quote the Cambridge University Press' English Grammar Today, mostly because it's a printed source you can grab excerpts from Cambridge's website.

user227867

@Tonepoet Isn't that an A-Z?

Apparently so.

user227867

I don't like A-Z's. I like systematic treatises.

user227867

I just had some wine, so my face is very red.

8:32 AM

Hmm, I'm a very systematic person so I don't mind it at all. XP

user227867

I own exactly three books on English: Grammatically Correct, A Student's Introduction To English Grammar, and Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, LOL.

Cool. I want me one of those "LOL" books.

Don't discount online resources.

Yeah, for instance English Language & Usage.

user227867

A bad resource, LOL.

8:37 AM

Nah, that place suxxorz.

I'd never go there.

user227867

Indeed, LOL.

Sepia-tone is the worst color, and what's with that squiggly thing that looks like a split worm?

user227867

I now think that Yahoo answers is better than SE, LOL.

(Seriously though I think I've learned plenty through this place, esp. search terms!)

user227867

LOL

8:43 AM

Well really, no kidding there. I read an answer and wonder what an abstract noun is then I find something like The Oxford and Cambridge Grammar.

user227867

I think that Cambridge is the best university in the world. Unfortunately, I was not able to study there for my mathematics degree.

Actually I don't think I found that because I was looking for Abstract nouns directly. I was trying to research "a doubt"...

I never did post my answer on E.L.L. to that question and I forgot most of the resources.

user227867

I am still looking for the perfect Linux distro, but I think I won't find it, because Windows is the best OS.

Matt E. Эллен

@JasperLoy well spotted

@Tonepoet The ELU logo? That's an ampersand. :P

user227867

8:49 AM

I have used Linux for the past five years, and have no idea why people consider it better than Windows.

Matt E. Эллен

@JasperLoy freedom

user227867

@MattE.Эллен I think it's because of free of charge.

user227867

Even the most bug-free distros like Debian and Ubuntu are FULL of bugs.

user227867

@MattE.Эллен Have you considered a change of career, to something other than programming?

@JasperLoy It doesn't reboot on updates, discarding your open files in the process, when you happen to talk away from the desk. (It's been known to core dump, though :/ .)

8:53 AM

I can't wait to get 2,000 rep. so I can push through minor improvements without peer review. =\

user227867

I can't wait to delete my next SE account, LOL.

zing

Let you FAKE Gods/Admins be Merry making in Your ways..Just Rub each other backs...Dont Forget to Downvote me..It may help you in Gaining IMMORTALITY. good Luck. — Karan Kaw 4 mins ago

Comment of the day

@JasperLoy Which flavour of Linux do you use?

user227867

@Lawrence I usually use Debian or Ubuntu.

user227867

8:55 AM

But I have used all 7 major distros and 7 major desktop environments.

Matt E. Эллен

@JasperLoy frequently, but programming's the only thing I'm good at :D

user227867

@MattE.Эллен I see. I have also frequently considered changing my current occupation of "unemployed", LOL.

Matt E. Эллен

lol

user227867

The 7 major Linux distros are: Debian, Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora, CentOS, openSUSE, Mageia.

user227867

The 7 major desktop environments are: GNOME, Unity, Cinnamon, MATE, KDE, Xfce, LXDE.

user227867

9:01 AM

The 7 major days are: Mon, Tue, Wed, Thu, Fri, Sat, Sun, LOL.

LOL isn't a weekday last I checked.

@JasperLoy Don't you find it (any of the Linux distributions you mentioned) more stable on the whole than Windows?

user227867

I read a story of how a one year old girl was pregnant with her parasite twin foetus, amazing...

user227867

@Lawrence I find Windows very stable, actually. I don't know how people use, or abuse, Windows.

@JasperLoy What do you not like about Linux (especially when compared with Windows)? That wasn't a rhetorical question.

9:07 AM

@Lawrence Compatibility?

With?

user227867

@Lawrence It can be difficult for people to figure out how to print (searching for correct printer driver) or to play videos (searching for correct codecs or player).

@JasperLoy Haha. Yes, been there, done that. I'll grant you that. It's gotten a lot better, though.

@Lawrence Software. I know W.I.N.E. exists but it's a little tricky to use.

user227867

And I think Microsoft Office is WAY better than LibreOffice or OpenOffice, especially when it comes to typing math or drawing pics.

9:10 AM

The last time I used open office it couldn't properly parse the .doc I was trying to open.

@Tonepoet True. VirtualBox can be useful (but I that requires Windows if run that way).

user227867

@Tonepoet And WINE doesn't work properly when it does work, or doesn't work at all for some software.

@Tonepoet I suppose Linux does tend to have that 'not quite finished' feel about it.

user227867

@Lawrence That is because it is free of charge and people don't get paid to make Linux software.

Don't sell 'em short now, they make great stuff... It's just that like the QWERTY keyboard, Microsoft's G.U.I. came first (second, third... well they were the first cheap option anyway.)

9:13 AM

@JasperLoy There are companies that have found ways to monetise Linux - the commercial version of OpenSUSE, and possibly Red Hat, for example.

I used to play The Battle for Wesnoth frequently.

user227867

A lot of people hate Adobe Reader, but it has the best rendering quality in my arrogant opinion.

@Tonepoet However, for stability, I find that Linux beats Windows, hands down.

Of course, it helps to have spent some time using UNIX while at uni.

@JasperLoy Do people hate the application or the company that makes it? I agree that Adobe Reader renders pages well.

@JasperLoy That's not true. Many, many people are paid to develop Linux software. All the programmers working at Canonical or Red Hat, for example.

user227867

@Lawrence They say it is bloated and buggy.

9:18 AM

However, Libre/OpenOffice is not Linux. It's just a piece of software that can run on Linux (and pretty much all other operating systems). Whether or not it is good has no relation to whether or not Linux is.

@JasperLoy Bloated, yes. Buggy? Well, it's not too bad on that count.

@terdon The continual forking can be draining on resources, and certainly dilutes the effort. Mint seems to be on a roll now, though. Time will tell.

Sure, all I'm saying is that actually many people are paid to develop Linux software. And that Linux software should not be confused with Linux itself. I wouldn't blame Microsoft if firefox doesn't work well on Windows, for example.

Matt E. Эллен

I always phone Microsoft whenever the Stack Exchange app stops working on my Android phone

user227867

I should phone Matt when I am sad.

Matt E. Эллен

I respond better to text

9:26 AM

@terdon Yes, the software and the OS should be considered separately. Linux actually takes the layering further than Windows.

Yep

Someday React O.S. will be finished and I'll be free of the D.R.M. menace.

user227867

Why did deadrat compare the election nominees to CPVPV? Maybe he is using hyperbole.

He almost certainly is.

user227867

PV = constant is Boyle's Law, LOL.

user227867

9:29 AM

It is interesting that parable and hyperbole exist in English while parabola and hyperbola exist in mathematics.

@JasperLoy I think his opening (and primary?) complaint was that the people who should run wouldn't nominate themselves. That, and its converse.

user227867

@Lawrence That actually applies to most of the politicians I know.

@JasperLoy It's also interesting that the trailing e is handled differently when pronouncing parable and hyperbole.

What other system is there? How do you know who's willing to volunteer?

user227867

It's also interesting that parabola and hyperbola are stressed on the second syllable but parabolic and hyperbolic the third.

9:35 AM

@Tonepoet I'd actually prefer the system where you can't nominate yourself directly - someone else nominates you, then you accept or decline.

That system is problematic because it's possible nobody will accept though.

user227867

@Lawrence That might be a good question for Meta SE.

user227867

But the most interesting observation now is that Lawrence and Matt and I are all green.

@Tonepoet When it comes to social structures, pretty much all systems are problematic, open to abuse, etc. However, some structures allow the expression of particular philosophies better than others.

Ours has the benefit of better representation though. Maybe the low rep. clods like me want representation too. =P

9:39 AM

Candidate score is taken more seriously than it should've been.

High rep. means high contributions, more or less.

Actually, I hate some of my higher scored answers more than my lower scored ones.

But a candidate with a score of 25 might not be a better choice than one with 20.

Matt E. Эллен

@Tonepoet many of us feel this way about our own answers

I mean conformist? c'mon...

Matt E. Эллен

that's mostly thanks to SWRs

user227867

9:41 AM

High rep means high contributions, and rep means nothing, so high rep means nothing, LOL.

The problem with numbers is they make it seem like it's an accurate representation, while what really matters is engagement in moderation activities and meta.

@JasperLoy SE has already used the concept - e.g.:

11

Q: Accepting Nominations — Who should moderate this site?

Ideally Moderators are elected by the community, but until the community is large enough to hold a proper election, we will be appointing three provisional Moderators to fill those roles. We need your help. Please nominate folks you would like to see become provisional moderators for this site. ...

discussion moderation

@MattE.Эллен Yeah but unlike the rest of you lot, I like S.W.Rs.

Matt E. Эллен

:D

@JasperLoy Just saying "rep means nothing" is misleading.

There must be a way that a contributor like Araucaria be distinguished from a random person like me.

user227867

9:43 AM

@DEAD Misleading answers should be downvoted.

Downvotes @Jasper

Doesn't comment

Matt E. Эллен

It's not that I dislike the SWRs that I answer, it's that the number of votes I get for the answers that I put real effort into is dwarfed by the SWR answers

@Tonepoet Feel free to nominate :) .

user227867

@MattE.Эллен I think as long as we remind ourselves that "rep means nothing", all problems are solved, LOL.

Downvotes @Jasp again

Doesn't comment

9:45 AM

Hmm, I've been disappointed in myself lately. I've been arguing with people about why their questions should be closed. That's unlike me...

Well, I call that helping.

Matt E. Эллен

@JasperLoy rep is meaningful in the beginning, when it encourages one to come back, but yes, once you're over 10K it becomes much of a muchness

user227867

The effort one spends on closing a question can be spent answering it, LOL.

I call bureaucracy. We're not really helping anything it seems like.

user227867

Also the effort one spends on leaving silly comments can be spent answering.

9:46 AM

Don't confuse the candidate score with rep. Rep is only one of various things taken into account when the candidate score is calculated.

@Tonepoet So you say that ELU feels not different at all from, say, Quora or Yahoo answers?

While rep is not a very good indicator of who would make a good mod, candidate score is a much better one.

@Tonepoet You've been open to considering alternative perspectives, though.

Matt E. Эллен

Closing questions helps to keep the site focused and helps to make sure people are asking in the clearest way possible

user227867

@DEAD The difference, I would say, is that SE gives the illusion that it is of higher class.

Matt E. Эллен

9:47 AM

If noöne can understand your question, it's not going to get good answers

@Lawrence Yeah, prejudice, real prejudice, is the devil.

@JasperLoy And that "illusion" works. Or we'd never have TChrist or Sven or Arau etc. contribute.

0

Q: Word or idiom for someone holding (seemingly) contradictory views

I think some good words would be conflicted, or confused. As an example of context, think of someone who believes in freedom of speech, but, at the same time, they would support banning comedians who make jokes about certain issues that person cares about.

single-word-requests idioms

user227867

I can understand copypasting large chunks from certain sources, but I cannot understand it when it is from dictionaries. Dictionaries are everywhere in every form.

@DEAD If Quora ever opens up their doors to the public, I think I'd rather be there and just answer. Yahoo Answers is problematic because their answer space is too cramped to say anything meaningful.

user227867

@Tonepoet It seems you need to create an account to view posts after the first post from google.

9:52 AM

@Tonepoet That's not what I meant. Does ELU not feel any different in content quality than them?

@jasper There's a workaround.

It's hard to say because I scarcely even belong here.

@Tonepoet Isn't quora open? I thought you just need to register

user227867

@DEAD At first I thought SE is better than the others, but now I no longer think so.

@JasperLoy Why? Also, ELU != SE

@terdon It's open in that sense.

9:54 AM

What sense? And how is it closed?

Unregistered viewers are blocked from browsing the website easily.

user227867

In the sense of needing to register to view posts.

user227867

I think I come here mostly to chat these days, LOL.

@jasper Try dragging the U.R.L. from your U.R.L. bar to the tab bar.

@Tonepoet If you ever head over there, drop a note here to say how you found it.

user227867

9:56 AM

@Tonepoet Brillant!

@Tonepoet As for answering, I think that people aren't aggressively down-voting good answers (to bad questions) these days, so if you have well-supported answers that address interesting aspects of English, answer away!

@JasperLoy Proof?

Meh, it's more-so about following policy than anything.

user227867

@DEAD No proof. This is chat. No proof is needed, LOL.

@Tonepoet How so?

9:57 AM

@JasperLoy The real thing might be that you were looking for something too ideal.

I already said I'm a very systematic person earlier in chat, maybe you've missed that.

No community can be.

user227867

@DEAD Maybe, because SE keeps talking about "experts".

It doesn't.

Its fanatics do.

I don't allow myself to break the rules or I try not to do so.

9:59 AM

The only real difference between SE and anywhere else is that it focused mainly on content, not the person who posts it.

Jinx.

user227867

Rules are meant to be broken. Break the rules, and don't break the law.

user227867

@DEAD Maybe you can view other sites that way too.

No, I can't.

Almost all features are built in a way that focus on what you've written, not what you are.

I haven't seen that anywhere else.

user227867

There are user profiles and rep leagues, and these focus on the user, not the answer.

user227867

So I will downvote your comment.

10:02 AM

@JasperLoy How prominent and "showing-off" are they, compared to similar features on other sites?

I can't say I have too much faith in Yahoo Answers myself. This question doesn't even mention paradoxes and that cherrygreensky person wrote a... nah, that's too conceited to even pretend. =P

user227867

Anyone here seen the Harry Potter play?

@Tonepoet The worst thing about Yahoo A, IMHO, is how you can post gibberish and get away with it.

I've seen more than a hundred yahoo answer threads in chemistry that were BS but there was no indication to show that.

user227867

I am thinking there should be a dating and marriage SE. Maybe one is being proposed, I dunno.

Matt E. Эллен

a marriage SE being proposed! lol

10:09 AM

Well, sex.SE didn't work out

I wonder why Rathony isn't running?

I thought he showed an interest.

user227867

@Tonepoet He is suspended.

For doing what?

user227867

@MattE.Эллен LOL

If I'm allowed to know.

user227867

10:11 AM

@Tonepoet Dunno, must have said some bad shit.

That's strange.

user227867

Maybe I should propose "Dating and Marriage" SE, LOL.

@Tonepoet Details of suspensions aren't public, for a good reason.

user227867

@DEAD For obvious reasons, LOL.

Hmm...

10:13 AM

IIRC it couldn't get out of private beta.

user227867

Seriously though, who would be interested in my proposal?

CM's were like "hey, I like what you're doing here, but joke's over"

@JasperLoy If you manage to keep the proposal alive after a day?

user227867

I confess that I have never dated in my life, LOLLOLLOL.

user227867

That is why I need this website.

user227867

I think @Josh61 is going to be ELU No. 1 very soon!

user227867

10:20 AM

I think I have polluted the star wall with my stars.

2

Well you're starring my comments so I can't complain about it. XP

user227867

That shows how highly I think of you. =)

Also...

I find it comedic in a way. =P

user227867

I watched the movie 'Inspector Maigret sets a trap'. Starring Mr Bean.

user227867

It is funny because the movie is totally serious.

user227867

10:24 AM

But I think my favourite Rowan Atkinson movie is 'Mr Bean's holiday'.

user227867

Maybe because the actress is really pretty.

What privileges do moderators get that high rep. users don't? I've read it's very few but I don't recall if any specifics were mentioned.

Ah, nevermind, I can read it for myself.

@Tonepoet A single close vote from a mod can close/reopen a question; mods can dole out suspensions to problematic users; they can see deleted comments; they can see some extra stats (although I think those are now available to >30k rep users as well); they handle flags; they can undelete posts at will; generally change content at will (tags, tag synonyms, a couple of help pages etc)

most people tend to think that mods are given privileges. I did too, before becoming one. Truth is, what we're given is mostly chores.

Matt E. Эллен

10:40 AM

we can also edit other people's chat messages

:P

Ah, so that's what ~~Rathony~~ was on about. XP

I was wondering what was so horrible about our chat system...

Well, Rathony is annoyed at various things. . .

I'm sorry, I meant deadrat. I have the two mixed up as synonymous in my mind for some reason.

Also before today, I never realized that vive is a word that just had sur and re prefixed to it...

Matt E. Эллен

> success to trifles

vive!

10:53 AM

That looks delicious, although I suspect it has coffee in it.

@Tonepoet Blame the frogs.

Matt E. Эллен

@Tonepoet it's a chocolate trifle. it might have coffee in it, but probably not

She's too cute to blame.

=P

Yeah, split second 'cause that'd be silly to leave up here.

in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, 10 secs ago, by SmokeDetector

@DEAD It's Shadow Wizard's fault.

user227867

Did you know that we can see the history of edited chat messages? So don't say things you would regret!

10:56 AM

I don't.

Ice cream vs. pizza

user227867

But only mods can see deleted messages.

And the user that deleted them apparently.

@Tonepoet Yes, that's recorded in the revisions.

user227867

And finally, the SE lords can delete deleted messages so that nobody can see them.

user227867

11:09 AM

I think I have finally mastered how to pronounce the French R = German R = Guttural R.

user227867

Much harder than the Italian R = Spanish R = Rolled R.

user227867

The English R = Chinese R is the easiest R of them all.

user227867

I am going to eat dinner. You all have a good day.

Matt E. Эллен

CU

11:47 AM

@MattE.Эллен Yeah that's always a pain. The answer I put the most effort into on ELU has only ever gathered a single upvote.

Matt E. Эллен

but people can only vote on things they understand, so the easy stuff gets the most votes :)

that's how I reckon it, anyway

@MattE.Эллен Also, the easy stuff on all sites is what usually gets into the HNQ and that's when the votes really start to come in.

Matt E. Эллен

very true

12:12 PM

@MattE.Эллен you might want to push this out of the close queue. Unless you agree that it's close-worthy of course.

Matt E. Эллен

@terdon can I do that? go to the queue and nope it out of there?

@MattE.Эллен No, you just need to mod close it and then reopen.

Matt E. Эллен

@terdon ah

good spot, thanks

@MattE.Эллен HNQ...

Matt E. Эллен

I guess the Samsung marketing team play a lot of Magic: The Gathering

although, even there "untap" really means "free up to use later"

Matt E. Эллен

12:38 PM

user image

@MattE.Эллен I think that's what you get when you leave marketing to pineapples.

Matt E. Эллен

probably

I recently found an absolute gem in a menu in Greece. In Greek, the word γόπα can be either the name of a fish (apparently called a bogue in English) or a cigarette butt. The restaurant in question was offering fried bogues which were wonderfully translated in the English menu to fried butts.

I wonder how many bemused tourists have ordered the dish only to be disappointed.

Matt E. Эллен

:DDD

12:59 PM

Good morning.

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Aug '1615

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…

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