English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Well, if I had to live with the way things are now, if there was one gun, I'd use is, if more than one, are. If I had my druthers, then if there was one cannon is, if more, cannons are.

Again, if I had to live with the current rule, many cannon, if I had my way many cannons.

Cerberus

Okay, but that would point to a plural, not a mass noun.

I'm talking about your example.

Dan Bron

But there are circumstances where cannon is used like battery

The enemy's cannon is imposing, we are taking fire from the enemy's cannon

Cerberus

But if it's still used with a plural verb or many in that case...

Dan Bron

We have destroyed the enemy's cannon

Ronronner

5:08 PM

Do you prefere stackexchange or forum like mybb/phpbb?

Cerberus

Hmm would you really say is there?

Dan Bron

Yes?

Or at least I hear my head saying it and preferring it that way

Cerberus

If you mean their artillery?

Dan Bron

I've never really actually talked about cannon

Yes, like artillery or battery

Cerberus

Nor I.

But it sounds strange to me.

The way you used is there.

Dan Bron

5:09 PM

are in that context would seem weird to me

but whadda I know?

@Ronronner I am unfamiliar with phpbb or any other bb. I prefer SE because it's low-noise.

@Ronronner There are at least two music stacks: for fans and for theory and practice (musicians, mostly). I imagine rap is on topic at both, but the kinds of questions you'd ask about rap would be different on each.

Cerberus

google.nl/…

I can find one example from the 18th century.

That seems to be using it the way you do.

Dan Bron

I'll take a look later. My usage is mostly informed by 18th century nautical fiction

Ronronner

OK thanks

Dan Bron

a lot of O'Brien

Ronronner

@DanBron I prefere SE too

Dan Bron

5:13 PM

uh, O'Brian

Ronronner

Do you think I can study 2 languages in same time?

MετάEd

@tchrist I'd love to see that in translation.

@Cerberus What is?

5:16 PM

@Ronronner I'm the wrong person to ask. I'm monolingual, and barely speak English properly.

@Cerberus Yeah, that's the kind of thing I'm thinking of.

But as I said, I have limited actual experience.

Ronronner

@Cerberus Do you think I can study french language and english language in same time?

Cerberus

@Ronronner Sure, why not?

@DanBron Interesting.

Ronronner

Ok

I'm using Duolingo, Is it good?

Cerberus

To me it looks like an error, someone confusing weird plural with mass noun.

@Ronronner You already asked me that yesterday. I don't know.

Ronronner

Oh true, sorry.

Do you think I can study english/french well without book?

Cerberus

5:19 PM

What does @tchrist think of using cannon as a mass noun? The quotations above are really the only ones I could find. It must be rare. Should it be considered an error?

MετάEd

@Cerberus He think it finez.

Dan Bron

I'll take my lumps if it's an error. But it really does seem to have some kind of accord with artillery or battery in my head.

Ronronner

@Cerberus What is the topic?

Cerberus

Ronronner

??

I don't understand

If Cannon word is right?

Dan Bron

5:23 PM

@Ronronner Don't worry about it. He's investigating whether the word "cannon" can be used as a mass noun, as opposed to simple an irregular count noun (that isn't declined with an s).

or inflected

or conjugate

Ronronner

ok

Dan Bron

or some fancy grammar word for changified

Cerberus

@DanBron That, combined with the fact that cannon has this odd plural, will no doubt be behind it. But is it an odd bit of idiom, or is it best considered an error? With some effort, I'm finding more examples.

Dan Bron

@Cerberus I can't tell you, obviously. I wonder how it's treated in other languages. French was dominant in the period I'm thinking of. How is it done in French?

Ronronner

canon

cannon = canon in french

Cerberus

5:25 PM

Ronronner

In Italian "cannon" is "cannone"

Dan Bron

@Ronronner How is it pluralized. Say "The enemy's cannon (meaning multiple guns) is/are intimidating"

Cerberus

@DanBron I only know that kanon is 100% regular in Dutch. And I think it's been regular at least for centuries.

Dan Bron

Say "the enemy has 14 cannon (guns)"

tchrist

@MετάEd More than one something would be lost.

Ronronner

5:26 PM

@DanBron In english the plural of "cannon" is "guns"

gun*

Dan Bron

I think the reason it makes sense to me that our belligerent forebears could have used cannon as a true mass noun is only a battery of them would be strategically important at the level I'm considering

one would not worry about one or two guns, but the placement and force of the enemy's artillery as a whole

@Ronronner I'm not asking about English, and in English, the plural of cannon is cannon. Seriously.

Some guns are cannon, some guns are not cannon. So guns can't be the plural of cannon.

Ronronner

ah ok

Cerberus

Dan Bron

I want to know how French treats the plural of cannon (not guns)

Ronronner

@DanBron Wait

If you want I take my french dictionary and I search it

Cerberus

5:29 PM

@DanBron Certainly, I can imagine how that would happen, and all the easier because of the irregular plural.

Ronronner

Give me a few minut

minute*

Cerberus

Dan Bron

yeah, this is more like what I'm remembering from my nautical novels

Ronronner

@DanBron armes à feu

tchrist

@Cerberus I’ve certainly come across it before. I would not consider it an error, just a domain-specific usage. It’s a naval or military use, as seen in How Many Cannon Did Washington Have in 1775? for example.

Ronronner

5:31 PM

Or canons

tchrist

Following the ascendancy of the Ming Dynasty, cannon were restricted at first to operations pacifying the southern border, including a resounding victory over a band of war-elephants in the 1380s.

Cerberus

@DanBron Interesting. I cannot find any examples from after ca. 1850.

tchrist

Those aren't mass-noun uses. Those are plural-invariant uses: note plural concord.

Cerberus

@tchrist OK then there is consensus betwixt you and Dan.

Dan Bron

I don't twixt.

Cerberus

5:33 PM

@tchrist No, wait, that's not the mass noun; that's the plural.

The plural is uncontested.

tchrist

@Cerberus Yep.

As an invariant?

Dan Bron

I contest!

Cerberus

We all know it's one cannon, two cannon.

Dan Bron

No wait, I can't test.

tchrist

Do we have a kitten amongst us?

Cerberus

5:34 PM

But the contested bit was e.g. all their cannon was captured.

Singular.

But it refers to several cannon, so it must be a singular mass/uncountable noun here.

tchrist

Well, I wouldn't say it.

Cerberus

All of the examples I have posted are of that usage.

@tchrist I couldn't find any examples after ca. 1850.

caub

@tchrist oh I like tagine, when can I come?

@DanBron des canons...

j'aimerais me faire canonisé

Dan Bron

Ok, so French treats it like a regular plural

MετάEd

@tchrist Still. The Spanish commentary I read on it piques my interest.

caub

5:42 PM

yes fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/canon

MετάEd

@tchrist Do we need one somewhere?

Cerberus

> b) P. méton. Ensemble de canons, artillerie (d'une place, d'une armée). Le canon américain nettement entendu (Green, Journal,1944, p. 146).
− Matériel consistant en canons :
4. Après plusieurs heures de combat, et différentes charges d'infanterie et de cavalerie, il se mit en retraite, nous laissant du canon et des prisonniers. Las Cases, Le Mémorial de Sainte-Hélène,t. 1, 1823, p. 677.

Dan Bron

I can't read that. Can I get a FL;CR?

Cerberus

I think Le canon américain is an ordinary metonym, not a mass noun.

"The American cannon was clearly heard".

Just as you could say, "the American war-horse is well trained".

Dan Bron

what's it a metonym for? the entire engine of war?

oh, like "The tiger is a nocturnal animal"

Cerberus

5:52 PM

No, for all cannon in general.

Yes.

The Russian tank is well equipped.

That usage is common in many languages.

However, the second example does point to a mass noun.

Dan Bron

yeah, I know there's some term for that phenomenon, but it escapes me right now

Cerberus

The description says "material consisting of cannons".

tchrist

@MετάEd Like the queen combs into his silk comber.

Dan Bron

something more specific than metonymy/synedoche

Cerberus

The example "they retreated, leaving us tank and prisoners".

I've replaced canon with tank, because I can't confer the meaning of du canon on you otherwise.

Du is clearly used to indicate a mass noun here.

tchrist

5:56 PM

I should just ask my family down in Cañon City. They should know.

Cerberus

Hah.

Dan Bron

Oh take me down to Canon City where the guns are loud and there's no pity.

tchrist

No, that's where the echoes overlap in fifths.

Dan Bron

And Hofstadter reigns with an iron fist.

Holding a strange loop of power.

tchrist

Quaerendo invenietis.

Dan Bron

6:03 PM

It was either you or Damien Conway who taught me the word quaquaversal and I will never forgive the perpetrator

I still can't make sense of the definition you (or he) gave, and yet I'm enthralled by the word

tchrist

Mayhap it was Damian.

Whom I owe a letter since he returned to Oz a few weeks ago.

@DanBron Better in pictures‌.

Dan Bron

But they don't "Shoot off in every direction towards a common center"

Mitch

Dan Bron

They radiate from a common center, or gravitate towards a common center

What bugged me, and enthralled me, was the juxtaposition of "shoot off from every direction" and "towards a common center". I want it to mean something. It feels zen.

Cerberus

6:27 PM

@Mitch I think that is rather...broad.

Greek and Chinese, very well.

But Hebrew and Latin? Never heard that.

And they forgot abracadabra.

Dan Bron

6:41 PM

What is that chart indicating? What each language uses as its example for "It's all <Weird Foreign Language> to me"?

ktm5124

Does anyone think they'll create an Ancient Greek beta on StackExchange?

Dan Bron

Here's an Ancient Greek Beta on StackExchange: β

Well, thanks for ruining my pun, reality.

ktm5124

Hehe

I mean, it would be nice. Kind of like we're missing half of classical antiquity.

Færd

6:56 PM

Would you say tell me it or tell it to me? Or is there a better option other that tell me about it?

books.google.com/ngrams/…

I guess most of the tell me it results ^ are false positives. I don't know how to exclude them.

ktm5124

What about "tell me"?

I think "tell me about it" has the best rhythm.

(It's iambic.)

Færd

I want to hear "it" itself, not about it.

Without leaving out the second complement (it), if possible.

ktm5124

I think if you're unwilling to say, "tell me about it", then it might be useful to abandon the pronoun "it".

e.g. "Tell me what happened". "Tell me the result". "Tell me the score".

Færd

I admit that tell me about it sounds best to my non-native ear.

@ktm5124 Yes. Thanks.

ktm5124

I think the problem with "tell me it" is that you have two stresses in rapid succession.

I learned that English is a stress-timed language from reading this post: english.stackexchange.com/questions/329151/…

Færd

7:07 PM

Ah, so you say it's a rhythmical problem rather than a grammatical one? Interesting.

ktm5124

I think so. I think expressions gain popularity and usage if they conform rhythmically.

Færd

Makes sense.

ktm5124

"Tell me it" is perfectly grammatical.

Færd

What boggles my mind is that tell it to me is also used by some.

ktm5124

It sounds better than "tell me it".

Færd

7:10 PM

Hmm.

Cerberus

@DanBron So I assume.

Færd

I definitely say "give me it" with no problem whatsoever. It doesn't sound sophisticated by any means, but it is completely natural. — Kosmonaut Jan 19 '11 at 17:14

Funny...I don't say "give me it" (I prefer "give me that" or "give it to me") but I do say "give it here". — Jon Purdy Jan 19 '11 at 17:21

ktm5124

"Give me it" sounds okay, too.

But better, "Give it to me"

You can imagine kids on a schoolyard shouting, "Give it to me!"

Færd

But it has the same rhythm as tell me it.

As does tell me that.

ktm5124

The words "give" and "tell" are different. Unfortunately, I know very little about linguistics.

Færd

7:15 PM

But tell me that sounds perfectly okay, doesn't it?

ktm5124

"Give" has a voiced consonant, so I think you say it longer than "tell"

I might be completely wrong, but I think the word "give", when spoken, has longer duration.

The weird thing about English, is that not all syllables have the same duration.

Færd

Possibly not in fast speech: gimme it vs tell me it.

ktm5124

"Christ" and "Christmas" have the same duration even though one has two syllables.

But I'm kind of talking out of my ass, hehe. I'm just someone who admires linguistics, not a linguist.

Færd

Haha! You gave me nice clues though.

ktm5124

I wonder if there are scansion tools on the internet? Like, you input a sentence and it scans the metrical properties.

Færd

7:19 PM

I know naught about meter, in theory at least.

There may be such online tools.

Mitch

@DanBron Yes.

Forgot the link

The directed graph of stereotypical incomprehensibility

Færd

A program that automatically reads a text should also be able to analyze the stress pattern of the sentence it reads.

ktm5124

I think it might be a little more complicated.

Mitch

@Færd should as in 'I'd expect this probability-wise' or as in 'They should feel bad if it doesn't'

ktm5124

I think there are such programs, but I suspect it's a difficult task.

Mitch

7:24 PM

@Færd Siri and google speak do OK. the Stephen Hawking thing doesn't do as well with intonation

Færd

Still Google isn't perfect.

Mitch

@ktm5124 In some varieties but not all. I would never say it like that, and if I heard it I'd think the speaker were not from North America.

Anonymous

@ktm5124 Typically, an unvoiced coda reduces the length of the preceding vowel.

Anonymous

I'm not aware of a similar effect for onsets. You could download Praat, sign up for LDC and grab some samples from an audio corpus, and measure to see if you can find a consistent effect.

ktm5124

@snailplane Are you saying that "tell" has less length than "give" because the coda in "tell" is unvoiced?

That would make sense to me.

Anonymous

7:28 PM

@ktm5124 The coda in tell is voiced.

ktm5124

Oh?

Anonymous

The only voiced/voiceless contrast there is in onset position: /t/ is voiceless, /g/ is voiced.

ktm5124

Oh, but /ll/ is voiced

Mitch

'Some Like it Hot' - The greatest ending line in movies

►

ktm5124

Obviously /v/ is voiced

I was confused about /ll/ - I thought it was voiceless

Anonymous

7:29 PM

Yes, both /l/ and /v/ are voiced. /l/ is a kind of sound called an approximant, and most languages don't have voiceless approximants.

ktm5124

I see

Mitch

the line is around 1:05

Færd

@Mitch Heh! You went through a lot for that.

Anonymous

Burmese is an example of a language which does have a voiceless version of the /l/ sound. It is written /l̥/ in IPA, with a small circle under the letter to indicate voicelessness.

Mitch

@Færd a minute and thirty seconds of a lot

Youtube is great. people have made clips of the best movie lines.

Færd

7:34 PM

I haven't seen that movie. I hope it hasn't been ruined for me (since I saw the ending).

Although I don't watch movies very often. Especially Hollywood. :)

Anonymous

@ktm5124 The difference between a voiced and a voiceless sound is whether your vocal cords vibrate while you say it.

Anonymous

You can test whether a sound is voiced for yourself.

Anonymous

Place two fingers on top of your voice box.

Anonymous

Say a long, drawn out /v/ sound. Vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv!

Anonymous

You should be able to feel the vibration.

Anonymous

7:37 PM

Now say a long, drawn out /f/ sound. Fffffffffffff!

Anonymous

You shouldn't be able to feel that vibration anymore.

Anonymous

Try going back and forth: /vfvfvf/ Vvvvffffvvvvffffvvvvffff!

Anonymous

You can feel the vibration stop and start.

Færd

You can't do that with /g/.

Anonymous

Well, you can.

Færd

7:39 PM

tries

throat explodes

Anonymous

You can feel the vibration when you say a [g] sound.

Anonymous

The situation with aspiration in English is actually rather complicated.

Anonymous

And I don't have time to talk about it now, but I will tonight after I get back from the dentist.

Færd

Best wishes for your teeth.

@snailplane I think you can sing a tune with repetitive /g/s though. That means it's voiced.

ktm5124

@snailplane When you say put your fingers on your voicebox, is the best way to put your fingers on your adam's apple?

When I looked up voicebox, it seems to go all the way from your adam's apple to your mouth.

Mitch

7:47 PM

@Færd No, it hasn't been ruined for you. Most of the movie though is funny for similar reasons (two guys trying to escape from the mob by dressing up as showgirls, but they're also interested in a couple of the showgirls they're staying with, so lots of comical misunderstandings). A bit dated but still funny.

@Færd tries to stuff throat back in

eww

Færd

@Mitch Oh, good!

@Mitch Too late. I'm dead now.

Mitch

@Færd It's possible to say a voiced velar fricative (continuously like a v but instead of with the teeth and lips, with the back of the throat, where k and g are said.

but that's hard for native English speakers because they don't have that sound natively

@Færd what a mess, will clean up later

Færd

Yes, that's a nice trick. Maybe gamma is pronounced like that in Greek?

Mitch

@ktm5124 just the adam's apple is fine

@Færd exactly (I can't type a gamma)

not easily

ktm5124

@Mitch Thanks

Færd

7:51 PM

What if ktm's a female? (a myth goes that women don't have Adam's apples)

Mitch

it's the same as a Spain Spanish g in the middle of a word like 'magi'

@Færd that's a myth

it just doesn't poke out as much usually

Færd

@Mitch Phew.

Mitch

@Færd do you speak urdu or farsi?

Færd

Farsi.

Mitch

oh, then gamma is a lot like ghain

(but 'ghain' is further back, it is uvular, not velar)

but I can't distinguish them, barely

Færd

7:54 PM

In Farsi ghain (غ) and ghaf (ق) are mostly pronounced the same. In Arabic they have different pronunciations.

ktm5124

@Faerd I'm a man

@Faerd A young man in my twenties

Mitch

oh right, ghaf. and not gaf, which is a voiced velar stop like g

Færd

@Mitch Yes, when I first heard gamma, it was like someone trying to say the Arabic ghain.

Mitch

what are the farsi ghain/ghaf not like the arabic ghain?

Færd

The ghafs are the same.

Mitch

7:57 PM

oh

Færd

Farsi ghain = Arabic ghaf.

Dan Bron

I get the sense this crank is honestly trying to say something, but I really can't work out what:

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/338556/does-sites-comments-restrictions-result-unwittingly-in-a-pioneer-cliques-knowl

Can anyone parse that noise?

ktm5124

Adam's apple

The laryngeal prominence (commonly referred to as Adam's apple), a feature of the human neck, is the lump or protrusion that is formed by the angle of the thyroid cartilage surrounding the larynx. == Structure == The structure of the laryngeal prominence forms a bump under the skin. It is larger in adult men, in whom it is usually clearly visible and palpable. In women, the bump is much less visible and is hardly perceived on the upper edge of the thyroid cartilage. The meeting point of the two portions of the cartilage generally forms an acute angle (of about 90°) in men, while in women it forms...

It explains the etymology.

Dan Bron

@Færd I imagine mixing those two up would constitute a serious gaffe.

ktm5124

There's a strong case that Adam's apple is a mistranslation of the Hebrew term, which could mean "man's bump"

oerkelens

7:58 PM

@DanBron I admire your efforts but it really seems to come out of some faulty generator.

ktm5124

Since Adam is the Hebrew word for "man"

And in late Hebrew, the word for "apple" and "bump" is really similar

Dan Bron

@oerkelens That was honestly one of my initial guesses, before he came back and commented.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…