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Mitch
Mitch
2:04 AM
She's kind of bossy?
 
Shafizadeh
Shafizadeh
@Mitch exactly
 
Færd
Færd
@tchrist Your joke was fine. I just wanted to add a note about something else.
 
tchrist
tchrist
termagant
 
Shafizadeh
Shafizadeh
@Færd Can you speak Persian?
 
Færd
Færd
We'd better not do that here, I guess.
 
Mitch
Mitch
2:07 AM
Maybe he's 'uxorious'
 
Shafizadeh
Shafizadeh
Ah ok ...!
@Mitch not that much but maybe a bit
 
Færd
Færd
@tchrist Heh
 
Mitch
Mitch
If you transcribe into Roman alphabet, we can't use google translate to get an idea of what you are saying
 
Shafizadeh
Shafizadeh
@Mitch are you talking to me?
 
Mitch
Mitch
Yea
And fard
 
Shafizadeh
Shafizadeh
2:09 AM
Ah .. ! Ok I stop writing Persian in here
 
Færd
Færd
I don't know what this discussion is about.
Should I read the entire thing?
 
Mitch
Mitch
@Shafizadeh I think it would be fine as long as it is in the Persian/Arabic alphabet.
Which of course seems weird because then it is hard for nonperson speakers to pronounce
 
Færd
Færd
@Mitch Would it? The rules here are so relaxed.
 
Mitch
Mitch
Yeah, I don't know
 
Shafizadeh
Shafizadeh
@Færd What's your job?
 
Færd
Færd
2:15 AM
Currently, I'm unemployed.
 
Mitch
Mitch
I think it'd be ok but I don't know about others.
 
Shafizadeh
Shafizadeh
@Færd Haw old are you? (I mean "your age?")
 
Færd
Færd
I'm 27.
 
Shafizadeh
Shafizadeh
Are you male or female?
 
Færd
Færd
Hah! Male, bro.
 
Shafizadeh
Shafizadeh
2:18 AM
Good ...!
 
Færd
Færd
@Mitch It would alienate other members to talk in a language they don't understand for long.
 
Mitch
Mitch
Yeah. So an extended conversation would put people off. But here and there is not bad, we tend to be multilingual
 
tchrist
tchrist
@Færd We don't really say "bro" you know.
And he keeps asking that question, but I do not understand why.
 
Mitch
Mitch
We do say 'dude'... dude.
 
tchrist
tchrist
did
 
Færd
Færd
2:23 AM
 
Mitch
Mitch
Do
Under duress
 
tchrist
tchrist
@Færd Nope.
 
Mitch
Mitch
How about 'brah'?
 
Færd
Færd
@tchrist Chick hunting, it may be?
 
Mitch
Mitch
Or 'vieux mec'
 
Færd
Færd
2:26 AM
@tchrist So why do dictionaries have this entry?
 
Mitch
Mitch
Or droog
 
tchrist
tchrist
@Færd I'm not a redneck.
Let alone an adolescent one.
Which is what it sounds like.
 
Mitch
Mitch
Is it redneck? Or surfer dude?
Or stoner?
 
Færd
Færd
Now that's something dictioanries don't tell you.
Good to know.
 
Mitch
Mitch
Dictionaries hardly tell you the tip of the iceberg
 
tchrist
tchrist
2:29 AM
It's a mark of slackerism and low education. Probably of being on drugs.
I'm teasing about some of that.
 
Mitch
Mitch
Bro!
Oh.
 
Færd
Færd
But it was fine in that context.
 
Mitch
Mitch
hides doobie
 
Færd
Færd
I wanted it to sound like See how it feels like to be over-intimate? or something like that.
 
tchrist
tchrist
The overtones and connotations of bro are like fingernails clawing chalkboards.
@Færd Success!
Seriously, you may well have realized that goal.
 
Færd
Færd
2:35 AM
:) I'm afraid I couldn't get that across though.
 
tchrist
tchrist
 
Mitch
Mitch
Or petting a cat the wrong direction
 
Færd
Færd
:D
 
Mitch
Mitch
Chewing on tinfoil
 
Færd
Færd
This conversation is good for making you loose weight.
 
tchrist
tchrist
2:40 AM
Was it fettered?
 
Færd
Færd
Bodily weight. Was what fettered?
 
tchrist
tchrist
You mean lose not loose. :)
 
Færd
Færd
Alas.
Thanks.
 
tchrist
tchrist
@Færd Using bro like that is not quite as bad as walking up to somebody you don't know and calling them nigga or dear, but it shares much in common with those.
Which, I think, you did understand. :)
 
Færd
Færd
How about 'pal'?
 
tchrist
tchrist
2:43 AM
That irritates too. Almost all of those do.
Pal is like friend: you don't use it on those who are, which means it is a lie.
Addressing someone by something other than their name, if it isn't a very polite sir, is always risky.
 
Færd
Færd
But how do you address a close friend informally other than by their name?
 
tchrist
tchrist
Why would you do so?
Family sometimes is excepted.
Terms of affection or endearment.
@Mitch Hey bud, do you use any of these?
 
Færd
Færd
I don't know. Sometimes to sound ironic, which I think pal and bro would work then.
 
tchrist
tchrist
Well, yes.
But sincere terms of affection are rare, and not for all but the very closest of bonds.
This may simply be cultural.
Almost certainly is.
 
Færd
Færd
Yes.
May depend on your gender too, and your friend's.
 
tchrist
tchrist
2:49 AM
Well, I suppose if you're one of those.
 
Færd
Færd
Females have more of those terms here, or use them more often.
 
tchrist
tchrist
I think it is the same here.
But a father may well use them on his sons until the day he dies.
 
Færd
Færd
The joy of which I might never actualize.
 
tchrist
tchrist
Well, that just brought me to tears. I must go.
 
Færd
Færd
Good night. :')
 
 
2 hours later…
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
4:29 AM
[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword in answer, pattern-matching website in answer: Is it conceivable that President Obama might use the word "queue"? by qizieballot on english.stackexchange.com …
[ SmokeDetector ] Manually reported answer: Is it conceivable that President Obama might use the word "queue"? by qizieballot on english.stackexchange.com …
 
 
3 hours later…
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
7:06 AM
[ SmokeDetector ] Manually reported question: How can something be “set in stone”? by oppobo01 on english.stackexchange.com …
 
 
3 hours later…
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
9:44 AM
[ SmokeDetector ] Offensive answer detected: Does "Who knows" need a question mark? by ola on english.stackexchange.com …
 
Noah
Noah
10:43 AM
Hello
It seems that it does not support this
it looks like that it does not support this
it appears that it does not support this
Which one seems most appropriate in a technical manual.
?
 
Færd
Færd
11:02 AM
@Noah As of little value as my guess would be, I'd guess appear is the most formal one, and therefore may suit a formal technical manual best. But mind you, there are more friendly technical manuals too.
If it helps, there are 1754 hits for "it appears that" in the academic subcategory of COCA, 1173 for "it seems that", and 1 for "it looks like that" (178 for "it looks like").
 
Noah
Noah
@Færd
Now I am confused
It's a simple manual that i need to deliver
I am using it looks like
the word that in there seems uncessary. My bad.
 
Anonymous
It's hard to pick the most appropriate way to phrase something without really understanding the context it appears in.
 
Færd
Færd
How do you want your manual to sound? Friendly? Serious?
 
Anonymous
> This appears to be unsupported.
 
Noah
Noah
friendly
 
Færd
Færd
11:13 AM
@snailboat can give you a better answer, but I would go for "it looks like" or "it seems that" then.
 
Anonymous
@Færd Well, I don't think I can really come up with a good answer with the information I've got.
 
Noah
Noah
@snailboat Lets say you are a sales engineer and need to explain a software tool to a software engineer who is trying to do something with your tool that it doesn't support. Now you have to say this thing is not supported but you are not 100% sure so you come up with something like this: It looks like this feature is not supported at the moment. Your best bet is to use bla bla bla
 
Anonymous
I just added one more possible choice to the list :-)
 
Færd
Færd
@snailboat That's a better answer than mine.
 
Anonymous
@Noah It looks like this feature is not supported at the moment seems okay. :-)
 
Jason Marsh
Jason Marsh
11:25 AM
Hi
I have a question about Harvard referencing
Darby, A 2004, 'Furious Butler quits as governor', Sydney Morning Herald, 10 August, viewed 10 November 2009, <http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/08/09/1092022411039.html>
What does "A" stand for before "2004"
 
Jason Marsh
Jason Marsh
11:37 AM
OK
HAHA I was so dumb, it's just first name
hehe I even sent an email to my professor, what an embarrassing moment
 
skill patrol
skill patrol
11:58 AM
Welcome @YoichiOishi :-)
 
Shafizadeh
Shafizadeh
12:10 PM
Is this correct?
What bothers you isn't those lovely sentence. Your aunt is kind of bossy and her husband is uxorious. That's a paradox in the natural relationships. What gives you a creepy feeling is seeing that paradox. Sometimes a person has an abnormal feeling against something. Usually a girl doesn't has any sense of power, but your aunt has. That's a abnormal feeling which makes the rest of normal people sad or even mad. Respect to their feeling and don't care about trivia.
 
skill patrol
skill patrol
it definely sounds non-native to me
 
Shafizadeh
Shafizadeh
Too bad ..!
 
skill patrol
skill patrol
what's it suppose to mean?
 
Anonymous
@Shafizadeh Nope!
 
Shafizadeh
Shafizadeh
@snailboat ok, thx for your attention
 
skill patrol
skill patrol
12:23 PM
sorry if I sounded mean @Shafizadeh
 
Shafizadeh
Shafizadeh
no problem, that's ok :-)
I improve it, now is it correct?
 
skill patrol
skill patrol
but, honestly I can't figure out the meaning :-/
 
Shafizadeh
Shafizadeh
What bothers you isn't those lovely sentences. Your aunt is kind of bossy and her husband is uxorious. That's a paradox in the natural relationships. What gives you a creepy feeling is seeing that paradox. Sometimes a person has an abnormal feeling against something. Usually a girl doesn't have any sense of power, but your aunt has. That's a abnormal feeling which makes the rest of normal people sad or even mad. Respect their feeling and don't care about trivia.
 
Anonymous
You can have a feeling about something, but usually not against something.
 
Anonymous
You probably want but your aunt does.
 
Anonymous
12:26 PM
You need an before abnormal.
 
Shafizadeh
Shafizadeh
ah ok
@snailboat I cannot understand this one
 
Anonymous
What is but your aunt has supposed to mean?
 
Shafizadeh
Shafizadeh
"but your aunt has sense of power"
 
Anonymous
You just wrote doesn't have.
 
Anonymous
That means you're using have as a lexical verb, not an auxiliary.
 
Anonymous
12:29 PM
Then in the second half of the sentence, you write: but your aunt has a sense of power.
 
Anonymous
But that ellipsis isn't possible.
 
Anonymous
If you add the auxiliary do:
 
Anonymous
> but your aunt does have a sense of power
 
Anonymous
Now the ellipsis is grammatical.
 
Shafizadeh
Shafizadeh
Oh I see
thx
 
Anonymous
12:32 PM
Auxiliary verbs allow this kind of ellipsis.
 
Shafizadeh
Shafizadeh
got it :-)
 
skill patrol
skill patrol
Is their relationship the "trivia"? @Shafizadeh
 
Shafizadeh
Shafizadeh
Yeah (a bit)
 
skill patrol
skill patrol
Also "Respect their feelings...
 
Shafizadeh
Shafizadeh
@skillpatrol Ah ok thx
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
12:49 PM
@Noah Since it's "to do something with your tool that it doesn't support", it is unsupported. If you're "not 100% sure", find out. Technical manuals should provide facts, not opinions.
@Shafizadeh Just a note that "Too bad!" sounds like you're dismissing a comment (skill patrol's?), which probably wasn't your intent.
 
Shafizadeh
Shafizadeh
@Lawrence Ah, good point, thx
Is this sentence correct?
So as a person with normal feelings, being offend of some conversions in their relationship would be natural and acceptable.
 
Mitch
Mitch
1:24 PM
@tchrist pal, bud, buddy, friend, amigo, I've never used. They sound to me like you described, like you're trying to affirm something that's not actually the case "What? I'm not your pal!"
 
Anonymous
@Mitch A while back someone on SE called me brother in a comment, which I thought was an attempt to be openly hostile, but they said afterwards they were being friendly.
 
Mitch
Mitch
I do use 'dude' all the time in writing ... Well not when I'm writing to the queen or in my newspaper editor job.
 
Anonymous
(Never mind that assuming someone is male online is annoying . . . )
 
Mitch
Mitch
@snailboat right. It is very ambiguous that way
@snailboat exactly.
Did you see the 'lady and gentlemen' question?
 
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
Should it be:
 
Mitch
Mitch
1:26 PM
Sorta related
 
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
The original author of x is so-and-so
or
 
Anonymous
@Mitch I did not.
 
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
The original author of x was so-and-so
?
 
Anonymous
Well, it was true and it is true, presumably?
 
Anonymous
I don't know. Is the original author still alive?
 
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
1:28 PM
@snailboat Does that make a difference?
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@snailboat If it was a non-native or rural speaker, I'd believe it...
 
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
I'm not sure what the "is"/"was" could be reasonably taken to refer to here.
 
Anonymous
@FaheemMitha Maybe not.
 
Mitch
Mitch
I'm not a school teacher or actually know anything but it seems like it should depend on if the author is alive. Is that right?
 
Anonymous
@Cerberus I am under the impression that this user is a native speaker. I don't know any details.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
1:29 PM
I think it depends on what kind of story you're telling. If you say "was", you're focusing on the event in the past, when he wrote the play.
 
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
@Mitch Dunno. The "was" in place of "late author", so to speak?
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
If you say "is", you're focusing on the timeless fact of authorship.
So normally you'd use "is".
 
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
I think I'm focusing on the fact of authorship.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@snailboat Hmm.
@FaheemMitha Is the sentence part of a sequence in which you tell the reader somewhat chronologically what happened?
 
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
@Cerberus It's actually a SE post. One sec.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
1:31 PM
If no, then I'd say it's best considered timeless.
 
Anonymous
Oh, if you have context to share, that would be great :-)
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
But I think "was" is rarely actually wrong.
 
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
3
Q: Cron vs systemd timers

Faheem MithaIt was recently pointed out to me that an alternative to cron exists, namely systemd timers. However, I know nothing about systemd or systemd timers. I have only used cron. There is a little discussion in the Arch Wiki. However, I'm looking for a detailed comparison between cron and systemd tim...

cron systemd-timer
The relevant sentence is:
> The original author of cron is Ken Thompson, the creator of Unix.
I'm inclined to stay with is, but it's not clear was is incorrect.
 
Anonymous
I think that is and was are both possible.
 
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
I think it may be one of those grammatical nitpicks which gladden the hearts of pedants.
In which number I do occasionally count myself...
@snailboat Yes, me too. Shall we take a vote? :-)
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
1:34 PM
I think is is better, but was is acceptable.
 
Anonymous
I like is too.
 
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
Ok, is it is then. :-)
Thanks, guys.
(Note, I'm using guys in a strictly gender-neutral fashion here.)
 
Anonymous
Sure, I understood it that way.
 
Anonymous
I hear gender-neutral guys all the time :-)
 
Noah
Noah
Is Ken Thompson still living?
 
Anonymous
1:38 PM
Yes.
 
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
With reference to your earlier discussion re: dude and brother. Neither which I normally use.
 
Noah
Noah
Okay, then is is.
 
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
@Noah Yes, he's only 73.
 
Noah
Noah
As long as he is breathing
 
Anonymous
I hope I live to be only 73 someday :-)
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
1:39 PM
@FaheemMitha Oh, puh-lease!
 
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
@snailboat lol
@Cerberus Heh
 
Noah
Noah
@snailboat One day. Just make sure you don't get remarried at that age.
 
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
Well, Noam Chomsky got remarried in his 80s. Dude's an animal.
 
Anonymous
If you don't mind, could you please imagine a question mark appearing over my head?
 
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
@snailboat Why?
 
Anonymous
1:42 PM
Because I'm confused by Noah's message.
 
Anonymous
And you can't see the physical question mark that manifested itself over my head through the internet, so you'll have to use your imagination.
 
Noah
Noah
Is it a big one?
 
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
It should be "the list of advantages is", right? I wrote "are".
Because list is singular.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Yes.
 
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
@snailboat He's hoping you live to be only 73 one day, I think. But he recommends you don't get remarried at that age.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
1:45 PM
Some "collectives" can take plural verbs, also depending on where you live; but normally they can't.
 
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
Though I should not speak for him.
@Cerberus Example?
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
The Cabinet disagree.
 
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
I can't wait for Newspeak to become the norm. It will make things so much easier.
@Cerberus Ah.
Well, dinner time. Laters.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Bye!
@FaheemMitha Blaaaaah!
Adios.
 
Anonymous
@FaheemMitha I understood the words the same way you did. I'm just not sure what the problem with remarrying at 73 is.
 
Anonymous
1:49 PM
Talk to you later, @FaheemMitha!
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
1:59 PM
@Cerberus With "original author", I'd be inclined to go with was because it's stressing the past authorship, not the present status of the same. I can imagine "its original author was X but it has since been revised by Y" - that sounds better than "its original author is X but has ...", even without the "but has ..." part. There may be some objection based on is/was = alive/dead. You can sidestep all that by saying "..., originally authored by Ken Thompson, ...".
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@Lawrence I presume you mean "but it has"?
I understand your argument.
And I think my "sequence of chronological events" more or less matches it.
You're right that the word original is more likely to be used when such a sequence is described.
 
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
2:17 PM
@Lawrence Hmm, "originally authored by" sounds good.
 
Shafizadeh
Shafizadeh
2:28 PM
Is this correct?
That's an abnormal feeling which makes the rest of normal people sad or even mad when that feeling get exprres in public.
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
@Cerberus Good catch :) .
 
Shafizadeh
Shafizadeh
express *
 
Anonymous
I can point out little grammatical problems. Like, I could say you should use gets expressed (or is expressed) rather than get express.
 
Shafizadeh
Shafizadeh
ah .. ok
 
Anonymous
But I think you might benefit from stepping back for a moment and trying to write the whole thing in plainer English.
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
2:34 PM
@Cerberus Yes, it's consistent with your "sequence of chronological events". An individual author doesn't make a sequence, but although @FaheemMitha's quote only specified the "original author", using the word original at least implies subsequent authors or editors.
 
Shafizadeh
Shafizadeh
@snailboat I don't know what do you mean "plainer English". This sentence isn't plainer English?
That's an abnormal feeling which makes the rest of normal people sad or even mad when that feeling is expressed in public.
 
Anonymous
Well, I was thinking of the longer quote you pasted in here earlier.
 
Anonymous
2 hours ago, by Shafizadeh
What bothers you isn't those lovely sentence. Your aunt is kind of bossy and her husband is uxorious. That's a paradox in the natural relationships. What gives you a creepy feeling is seeing that paradox. Sometimes a person has an abnormal feeling against something. Usually a girl doesn't has any sense of power, but your aunt has. That's a abnormal feeling which makes the rest of normal people sad or even mad. Respect to their feeling and don't care about trivia.
 
Shafizadeh
Shafizadeh
So? All of this ^ is wrong?
 
Anonymous
No, no, no . . .
 
Shafizadeh
Shafizadeh
2:37 PM
Actually I want to add that new sentence to what you linked
Here is my full-context ..
 
Anonymous
I mean, there are little grammatical things here and there that need fixing, some of which we already talked about. But I wasn't thinking of "right" versus "wrong" so much as trying to make it read a little easier, make it a little more natural.
 
Shafizadeh
Shafizadeh
What bothers you isn't those lovely sentences. I guess your aunt is kind of bossy and her husband is uxorious. That's a paradox in the natural relationships. What gives you a creepy feeling is seeing that paradox.
Sometimes a person has an abnormal feeling about something. Usually a girl doesn't have any sense of power, but your aunt does. That's an abnormal feeling which makes the rest of normal people sad or even mad when that feeling is expressed in public. So as a person with normal feelings, being offend of some conversions in their relationship would be natural and acceptable.
@snailboat Ah ok... so you are telling my text is correct but not perfect!
 
crl
crl
2:52 PM
what's the difference between a well-dressed man on a bike and a poorly dressed man on a unicycle?
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
With reference to the following post, I'd like to say that "Hello, world!" is a sentence. The main objection is that with no verb or predicate, it doesn't qualify as a sentence. Hello is considered an exclamation. RegDwigнt's comment comes closest, but doesn't actually define sentence. Any thoughts?
(I'm asking how to formally parse "Hello, world!" as a sentence.)
0
Q: Is "Hello, World!" a sentence?

BerndGitI proposed a programming puzzle, where the question is to generate gramatically correct sentence with the shortest program (see: [http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/78138/linguistic-code-golf][1]). One suggested solution was "Hello, World!", this is an standard output at a special langu...

sentence-structure
 
crl
crl
of course it is
a sentence can be one word long
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
@crl Yes, of course. But according to what definition of sentence?
 
crl
crl
ah, damn, no verb, hmm

> A sentence is a group of words that makes complete sense, contains a main verb, and begins with a capital letter. Sentences are used:
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
@crl Exactly :) .
 
crl
crl
2:58 PM
Hoy lo aprendo
guys, don't forget my joke ^
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@Lawrence Then I think we are agreed in principle.
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
"Hello, world!" is of the same construction as, say, "Hey, you!": interjection + noun. I considered ellipsis "(I offer a) hello, World", or hello as sort of a performative verb, but neither is quite satisfying.
@Cerberus No objection :) .
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Yay.
@Lawrence Interjection + noun.
I'm not sure about ellipsis as the historical origin of the construction.
Maybe.
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
@Cerberus Fair enough, going back to edit. Just made the edit window. :)
 
crl
crl
what is the longest grammatically correct sequence of words you could find without a verb? (in English)
 
Anonymous
3:03 PM
@crl An infinitely long noun phrase?
 
Anonymous
Also known as a British newspaper headline.
 
crl
crl
hehe
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
@Cerberus Etymology-wise, it's arguably a verb in that sentence.
 
crl
crl
@crl attire
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
@crl Haha. Good one.
@crl Um, no comprende. "Hello to open?"
@crl Start with "Hello, famous visitor!", then add more adjectives. After that, add "and guest", then insert more adjectives. You can keep greeting as many people as you like this way.
 
crl
crl
3:10 PM
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
@crl Ah. Indeed. Me, too. :)
 
crl
crl
@Lawrence yes, or a description of photo, :)
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
@crl Well, the photo already counts as a thousand words, for an appropriate definition of count. :)
 
crl
crl
or a chat room description. hehe right ^ an image is worth that
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
@crl Actually, they all need some kind of predicate, producing, e.g. "This is (thousand-word description)". Even the "Hello, famous visitor!" sentence has "Hello" perform that function.
 
crl
crl
3:15 PM
Someone should write a book without verbs
 
Anonymous
@Lawrence Hello doesn't predicate on anything.
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
@snailboat Yes, that's the problem. Here's the start of this discussion.
 
Anonymous
Ah.
 
Anonymous
It's a minor sentence.
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
looking up definition of minor sentence
@snailboat This equates minor sentence with sentence fragment. So would you say that it's not formally a sentence?
 
crl
crl
3:21 PM
See. < shortest sentence?
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
@crl How do I access that reference?
 
crl
crl
Go.
(nah, was just looking at the shortest sentence possible)
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
@crl Oh, I see what you mean. It doesn't explain why "See." or "Go." is formally a sentence, though. I think one of the analyses considered "Go." to be a shortened version of a longer command.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@Lawrence Fowler is the best!
It does look like an ancient verb.
 
Anonymous
Go works as a complete sentence (meaning a major sentence, not a minor sentence) because second-person subjects in imperatives can be omitted, and usually are. You go.
 
Anonymous
3:31 PM
@Lawrence I don't think sentence fragment and minor sentence are quite the same thing.
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
@Cerberus In this reference, it looks like an exclamation to me.
@snailboat Yes, you're right. It's an implied noun + the explicit verb.
 
Anonymous
The term sentence fragment suggests that it's part of a larger sentence, but something has been left out, don't you think? Like: "You have two cars?" "No, I have three cars."
 
Anonymous
But a minor sentence is a string that works as a complete utterance but doesn't fit any of the major clause types.
 
crl
crl
"Who did that?" "I did" so technically one char sentence
 
Anonymous
So when you use Welcome! as a one-word performative utterance, is it elliptical? Well, you could try to come up with a way to analyze it that way, or you could just say it's a type of minor sentence.
 
Anonymous
3:34 PM
But there are some complete utterances that can't be explained by ellipsis, no matter how hard you try.
 
Anonymous
> What about you?
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
@snailboat I'd agree, but would like an established reference I can link to when posting an answer. This is another write-up about minor sentences, but it also seems to carry the 'incomplete sentence' idea.
 
Anonymous
Okay, sure.
 
Anonymous
You might look at A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language (Quirk et al. 1985), starting on page 838. The section title is 'Irregular sentences'.
 
Anonymous
In The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (Huddleston & Pullum 2002), the section 'Minor clause types' starts on page 944.
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
3:38 PM
@snailboat Linguistically, why aren't exclamations considered (full) sentences? I understand the standard 'no verb' explanation, but it doesn't seem to match what sentence normally means in common usage. 'Minor sentence' captures the sentiment well.
 
Anonymous
A major sentence has at least one major clause.
 
Anonymous
A major clause has the form of one of the major clause types, which are at least declarative, interrogative, and imperative, and probably exclamative as well.
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
@snailboat Thanks. I don't have these handy, but do they consider minor/irregular sentences to be sentences? (The naming seems to bear that out - they are xyz sentences, so they are sentences. But I suppose English doesn't always pattern-match that way.)
 
Anonymous
Well, you can divide utterances further into minor sentences and non-sentences, if you want.
 
Anonymous
I don't know that there's really a standard view on how to classify sentences that don't fit one of the major clause types, even if just elliptically.
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
3:43 PM
@snailboat Just wondering - are exclamations like "Hello" explicitly excluded from the exclamatory sentence type?
 
Anonymous
@Lawrence Yeah. An exclamative clause looks like this: What a disaster it was!
 
Anonymous
Hello is an interjection.
 
Anonymous
It's a complete utterance on its own, but you might not want to consider it a sentence on its own. Depends on how you want to define sentence, I guess.
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
@snailboat Ok. Thanks for the discussion. My conclusion is that "Hello, world!" is commonly treated as a sentence. It can be considered a minor sentence linguistically. For it to be treated as a formal sentence (noun + predicate definition) would require interjections to be considered as predicates, which they aren't.
@snailboat Yes, that takes us full circle :) .
 
Anonymous
David Crystal's A Dictionary of Linguistics and Phonetics doesn't have a separate entry for minor sentence, but it does talk about them in the entries for sentence and minor.
 
Anonymous
3:49 PM
His definition includes utterances like Yes, Please, and How do you do? as minor sentences.
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
looking it up
 
Anonymous
But Quirk et al. 1985 would classify some utterances like Yes instead as non-sentences.
 
Anonymous
So definitions vary, I believe.
 
Anonymous
(Heck, in Syntactic Phenomena, McCawley uses sentence as a synonym for clause!)
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
@snailboat Thanks! I'd prefer something based more strongly on linguistic theory, but the traditional 'complete thought' definition would do for this :) .
@snailboat I suppose it's hard to pin down something that is used in various ways. Starting with a description and ending up with a definition can lead to instances that fit the description falling outside the formal definition.
 
johnchae
johnchae
4:06 PM
Evening :)
 
Mitch
Mitch
@crl or at least a very short story
Probably has been done
@crl or at least a very short story
There are novels without the letter 'e'
 
Anonymous
@Lawrence I don't know that the sentence is a really important unit linguistically. The clause is a much more natural unit to discuss a lot of the time.
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
@snailboat Fair enough. It's important for the OP in this case, though. I've credited you in my answer to their question. Thanks again!
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@Lawrence But one that was (or is?) originally a verb, right?
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
@Cerberus Yes, I'd agree that "Hello" is an exclamation that was (originally) derived from a verb.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
4:20 PM
OK.
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
@Cerberus Here's the reference to the etymology with the suggested derivation from holla!, meaning "stop, cease" (which are clearly verbs).
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
You had already posted that link!
 
Lawrence
Lawrence
@Cerberus Yes :) . I wanted to quote the "stop, cease" part. Besides, it's simpler to link again than to refer to an earlier part of the chat :) .
Thanks everyone! TTFN
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
TTFN?
 
Anonymous
@Cerberus Ta-ta for now!
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
4:35 PM
Ahh.
 
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