English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

12:01 AM

@anongoodnurse but not at homeopathic doses surely (10 divided 10 times is below atomic size).

@Cerberus jinx

The idea of homeopathy is pseudoscientific, it looks like science and there are analogous scientific processes, but it is not borne out by data (or by thinking!)

OK...it was a long way across the estate to get my slaves to type on the 'trampoline' keyboard (if you were rich like me you'd know about it).

@anongoodnurse Of course Cerb could give a more educated perspective (s/ more/n /), but I'll go the linguistics route... all languages are equally logical and equally a mess in their own way.

except for pidgins, which are a mess on their own.

Latin has, for its morphology alone, nouns having two numbers, three genders, 5 declensions, 5 (or 6) cases. verbs have 3 persons, two numbers, 3 moods, 3 tenses, 2 aspects, um ... uh... oh 4 ...what do they call them, not declensions but -are, -ere, -ire, -ere. And most importantly consistently morphological forms for all variations.

One could call that structure. I call it madness.

Cerberus

@Mitch Conjugations.

@Mitch Then you haven't seen Greek...

Mitch

If you call that madness, look at Russian, it will burn your eyes out, more cases, many more declensions and verb conjugations.

@Cerberus nice. thanks.

And people (if you can call scholars that) say how wonderful this 'structure' is, because it allows you to vary your word order. That is because there is so much that needs to correspond (adjectives to nouns, nouns and verbs together, function in the sentence), that you can mix your words up in any order you want for poetic emphasis. Which is in my book exactly what unstructured means. All mixed up. So Latin is all mixed up. QED. Quod erat demonstrandum.

@Cerberus No I haven't seen Greek. Well I've seen Greek, I just don't know anything about it.

Cerberus

12:18 AM

@Mitch Well, you can mix it up, but that is not done so much outside poetry.

Greek has 3 voices where Latin has 2.

Greek has 4 verbal stems where Latin has 4.

I don't know how many declensions Greek has, but in practice there will be a lot more paradigms to memorise than for Latin.

Greek has 4+ dialects that are in use in Literature versus Latin's 1.5.

MετάEd

Good lord. I'm on the leaderboard at #5 for five hats?

FIVE?

Cerberus

The results is several spelling variants for many, many endings.

Then there is contraction, which is uncommon in Latin, but very common in Greek, at both ends of a word.

And contraction is not compulsory, so you will see contracted and uncontracted forms of the same prefix, suffix, or ending.

MετάEd

@Cerberus Everything not forbidden is compulsory.

Cerberus

Says who?

MετάEd

@Cerberus The ants.

Cerberus

12:22 AM

You can spell poiei or poieei ("he does").

You can spell poiei or poiesai ("you do yourself / you do for yourself / you are done").

In both cases, the contraction is spelled poiei, but it could be the contraction of two different endings.

Greek has many prepositions that mean different things depending on which of 3 cases they govern.

MετάEd

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/consecutive_vowels.png (not worksafe)

Cerberus

In Latin, this is less common, and it's never more than 2 different cases.

Greek has one case fewer than Latin, I'll give you that.

@MετάEd Bleh, why wouldn't you just post that here?

I see no boobies.

MετάEd

I am doing my part to make the room welcoming for first timers.

In this case, by not forcing vulgarity on them (even vulgarity that I like).

Mitch

@Cerberus Russian has 7 (or 8) cases, uncountable conjugation classes, and most everything is an exception anyway. So Russian wins (or loses, depending)

Cerberus

@MετάEd Well, I appreciate the intention, but that seems a bit exaggerated.

Mitch

12:29 AM

@Cerberus like English, but without the endings it's even worse

MετάEd

@Cerberus I will not be drawn into a controversy over it.

Mitch

how about a well-reasoned discussion?

Cerberus

@Mitch Hah! They may win in their number of cases. But do really think Russian morphology has more variation than Greek?

@MετάEd Umm what controversy? Take it easy, it is none of my business what you post and don't post.

MετάEd

@Mitch If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.

@Cerberus Now you want to create controversy over controversy? :D

Mitch

@Cerberus I don't know Russian so I'm just repeating what I've read (re # of forms, and lots of irregulars, much more than other languages)

Cerberus

12:31 AM

@Mitch Never mind, if Ed sees this as controversial, then I want no part of it.

@MετάEd Stop it! Controvert yourself.

Mitch

@MετάEd That's abuse

MετάEd

@Cerberus I prefer "intercourse the penguin" but to each his own.

Cerberus

@Mitch Right, we'd have to ask someone who knows both languages well enough.

tchrist

Mumble mumble riddle and rumble.

MετάEd

@Mitch I'm glad I'm not the only die hard Python fan in the room.

Mitch

12:32 AM

@MετάEd closes eyes, backs out of room

tchrist

@MετάEd \s

MετάEd

@tchrist stoopid burn and maudlin tumblr.

My work here is done.

Mitch

@MετάEd I prefer R. It just has a longer history and well supported libraries. Python may well replace it (because frankly Python was made by someone who has a clue and R made by glomming on features by non computer scientists)

@Cerberus well, one can, without having instruction in the languages, check their and grammatical inventories.

Cerberus

Can one?

tchrist

parse error: core dumped

Cerberus

12:37 AM

I'm not sure how you would go about charting the entire Greek morphology.

Mitch

@MετάEd I'm pretty sure I'm one of the least fanatic, in the logical sense.

@Cerberus One can.

@Cerberus Oh. That bad, eh?

Cerberus

> Some scissors are designed for left-handed use, although most of them sold in stores are not specialized.

Do you agree this sounds odd?

Mitch

@Cerberus expecting parallelism.

'specialized' sounds like it took a weird turn.

Cerberus

@Mitch For example, how do you find out how many irregular verb stems and endings there are?

Mitch

count

Cerberus

12:39 AM

How?

@Mitch I'm not sure what is what I would point at.

Mitch

well, how would a native speaker do it better than a ...

Cerberus

What if you replace them with those?

> Some scissors are designed for left-handed use, although most of those sold in stores are not specialized.

Mitch

That does sound better

Cerberus

Yeah.

I would say them is wrong.

Mitch

well, re greek and russian, you'd need grammars for both with enough detail (that go over all the irregularities) in a single foreign language (like English). That way you wouldn't need to know both equally well, you'd just need two people who know a third language as well as their own (to communicate in the third language.

Of course that language is English.

Cerberus

12:43 AM

Kind of, yeah.

Although the best grammars of Greek will be in German and possibly French.

Kit Z. Fox

@MετάEd Appreciated.

Mitch

@Cerberus oh.

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch Are there really that many sounds for i and y? I can think for four for y and maybe three for i.

Also, I forgot that I needed a better title for this question.

Let me change it now.

Anonymous

I just got my fifth hat! :-)

Kit Z. Fox

12:59 AM

Congrats.

Challenging @MετάEd for position.

Anonymous

Oh, I have five total, but I only have four of them on ELU. I can get the fifth here though :-)

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch I think the title ought to be something more like "Is there a reason the letter 'y' is wye in English, but 'Greek i' in other languages?" or "What is the overlap between 'y' and 'i' for phoenetic representation?" or something. I never could nail that down.

Anonymous

For ‹y›, the Longman Pronunciation Dictionary lists /j/ (as in yet), /ɪ/ (as in crystal), /aɪ/ (as in type), and a weak /i/ (as in happy). The first is specific to ‹y›, and the other three are shared with ‹i›. But ‹y› can also be part of the digraphs ‹ay›, ‹ey›, ‹oy›, or ‹uy›.

Anonymous

Where is the question?

Anonymous

Oh, I found it!

Kit Z. Fox

1:06 AM

@snailboat it's here

Anonymous

Thank you :-)

Kit Z. Fox

But the title really needs to be something else.

Thank you.

I'm having and have had difficulty articulating what I am trying to ask.

But I haven't done a bounty in ages, and I thought this would be a good one. I'm trying to accept answers on all of my questions.

Here is a pertinent comment:

What about Greek-derived words? I'm trying to figure out why this is a Greek i in other languages, but not English. — Kit Z. Fox ♦ 15 mins ago

I guess that's what sim's answer is missing that I'm trying to understand. Do other languages use some other letter for yod or something?

And what does this mean? "in Greek words, representing υ, as in hymn"? I can't read that letter.

Oh. When I paste it here, I see that it is upsilon.

Lawrence

@Cerberus Yes, it sounds odd, but "of those" would refer more strongly to the left-handed scissors than the initial "some scissors".

user174558

2:01 AM

@kit Are you sleeping yet?

Kit Z. Fox

2:18 AM

@JasperLoy Yes.

Mitch

3:18 AM

@KitZ.Fox Like 'synchronous'? (where the y is like the short i)

Oxinabox

6:20 AM

Can anyone provide a citation towards the best number of words to have in a sentence?
I've seen 14 thrown around but never with a citation.

One place commenting on the fact that the citation can't be found onlinegrammar.com.au/how-many-words-are-too-many-in-a-sentence

Apparently: “Readers’ Degree of Understanding,” American Press Institute.
But I can't seem to locate that

Veo

6:39 AM

Guys, is it permissible to omit 'the' in poetry?

Oxinabox

Depends on the poetry form? E.g. it is expected in (westernised) haiku.

Veo

As in here:

Anointed by dandelion
Enchanted by the scarlet sun
The twilight zephyr

Oxinabox

It is pleasing to read, thus it is permissible? Poetry is meant to be art. Is it permissible to not paint the sky? Sure.

Veo

Haha, oh well.
Should I add 'the' before 'dandelion'? Or remove 'the' before 'scarlet sun'?

Oxinabox

I don't think there is a real correct answer. But I am no poet.

Veo

6:48 AM

:)

Hugo

7:56 AM

There's no such thing as "the best number of words to have in a sentence".

You can omit "the" in poetry, depends entirely on what you're after

the thes in that example are fine

"Anointed by dandelion" vs "Anointed by the dandelion", depends on your intent. I like the sound of the former, it sounds like being anointed by dandelions in general, or perhaps some dandelion extract, or a dandelion crown. Who knows? Ambiguity can be useful in poems.

"Anointed by the dandelion" suggests a single dandelion plant or stem being wafted over someone's head

there's no right answer

Matt E. Эллен

10:32 AM

@Mitch looks like I'm not needed then ... :-/

but seriously, ignoring that tripe, Martha's answer is good

Also, as under the weather as I am, I'll put off writing something for a bit, so that it's coherent

user174558

Hello @MattE.Эллен, I won't put on any hats.

Hugo

vote to re-open? english.stackexchange.com/q/293950/9001

Matt E. Эллен

10:51 AM

@JasperLoy i am eating my only hat

Anonymous

Hee

Anonymous

I'm on my eighth hat network-wide. I just got Speedy Delivery for that noren post! :-)

Matt E. Эллен

nice :D

user174558

@snailboat Are you a programmer? Just wondering what you do.

Anonymous

I'm just a snailboat.

user174558

10:54 AM

I see, very secretive.

user174558

I am a lunatic, as you probably already know.

Matt E. Эллен

not a very profitable career

Anonymous

I have a snail named Luna! :-)

user174558

When I tell people I am a lunatic, they think I am joking. Little do they know I am deadly serious.

user174558

I just watched Hostel, such a stupid movie. Don't watch it!

Anonymous

10:56 AM

I haven't heard of that movie.

user174558

It's about people who pay money to torture others. People get kidnapped and then killed slowly.

Anonymous

I wouldn't want to watch that sort of thing.

Matt E. Эллен

nor me

user174558

There is also Hostel 2 and Hostel 3.

user174558

Oh, I watched The Beach, the one with Leo Di Caprio, pretty good.

user174558

11:09 AM

I am going to eat dinner, bye.

Matt E. Эллен

cu

Mitch

2:04 PM

@MattE.Эллен I read the whole thing and then got to the author and I thought it was a funny way to respell your name.

@MattE.Эллен depends on the job market

Hugo

2:27 PM

> I can't get a word in edgewise ... things go by so fast

Kit Z. Fox

OK, we have a theory about the Onion Knight secret hat. We think it is awarded when a question has no votes or activity before it has 99 views.

Oh. I hope you don't mind hat discussion?

Hugo

not I. what's the onion link?

Kit Z. Fox

It's a secret hat. Onion Knight is a class that is weak at the start then gains strength and becomes superpowerful at level 90-99.

Shafizadeh

"so that" means "for this purpose" ?

Kit Z. Fox

So there's that one theory. Another is that it receives more votes after a certain number of views than it does before.

@Shafizadeh Maybe. What's the whole sentence?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:32 PM

@KitZ.Fox Isn't the onion knight a character from game of thrones?

Kit Z. Fox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Seems to be a red herring. It's a class in Final Fantasy as well.

Shafizadeh

@KitZ.Fox "Values are handled internally so that they're essentially always passed by reference of some kind or another. "

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Hm. In GoT he was a smuggler who smuggled onions in to the besieged lord, then the lord cut off his fingertips on one hand and raised him up to knighthood.

Kit Z. Fox

@Shafizadeh Yes, that makes sense.

Shafizadeh

ok tnx

Kit Z. Fox

2:35 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I can't think how that would relate to the questions that have it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

downvotes then upvotes?

some kind of redemption?

Kit Z. Fox

No, looked at that. Two of them had no downvotes.

Looked at privileges earned as well, it wasn't that.

Although -- I don't think anyone looked at earned privileges for the answerers of the post...

Mitch

@Hugo also reading the context takes forever. by the time I have something relevant to say, people have moved on to iPohnes vs Andorid

@KitZ.Fox That's perverse.

Hugo

lookin' for +5 on these for a liftin' hat!
http://english.stackexchange.com/a/293981/9001
http://english.stackexchange.com/a/294044/9001
http://english.stackexchange.com/a/293972/9001
http://english.stackexchange.com/a/293966/9001

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox Onion night? Red herring? Le nez! This is a secret underground sleeper-cell for the gastronomical invasion by Baltic cuisine?

Also, Game of Thrones? Nobody watches that show.

@Hugo +1 by one person. Wait...are we supposed to read them first?

Kit Z. Fox

2:41 PM

@Hugo Serial voting reversal script!

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox 4 of them won't trigger... will it?

Hugo

of course, only +1 if you think it's a good answer :)

I wonder if I can delete an old answer of my own and repost it, for the DIY hat