English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Congratulations.

Anonymous

Thank you again!

Anonymous

Hey, winterbash2015.stackexchange.com shows up in Japanese for me :-)

Anonymous

They localized the Japanese version of Stack Overflow, but there's no option to use the Japanese interface on Japanese.SE. I guess Winter Bash chooses based on Accept-Language.

12:13 AM

I suppose I should congratulate you again!

Anonymous

I feel so very congratulated today!

I feel so very thanked today!

Anonymous

Yay!

Anonymous

Wow, there's a hat for posting ten times with the mobile app.

Anonymous

There's one hat I'm not getting.

12:19 AM

Luckily, you have only one head.

Anonymous

12:35 AM

I'm probably going to wear most of my hats on my shell :-)

1:17 AM

Hat Dash has started already? I thought it was tomorrow.

Anonymous

I think that's a time zone thing. It started on the 14th at midnight UTC.

Anonymous

But I live in California, where it's still the 13th. So I live in the past, and hats live in the future!

Anonymous

It's all kind of timey-wimey.

Yay, hats!

@snailboat I think it is a good question (5 upvotes, 1 from me). Reading my comment again, it does seem unnecessarily combattive. Let's see if we can tweak it to get upvotable answers?

Anonymous

1:27 AM

Oh, no worries. I didn't take it as combative. I was thinking myself that I'm not sure how it should be answered.

@snailboat You're basically looking for the geographical (or dialect) range of those who purse their lips when they say sh or zh?

Anonymous

Sure, except I don't know if it varies geographically or if it's just inconsistent.

right.

I've asked questions like that before. That kind of information is out there.

Anonymous

I only have one textbook on English phonetics, A Course in Phonetics, 6th ed.

1:30 AM

The particular phenomenon...I just have a hard time imagining it.

Anonymous

Well, only one useful textbook on English phonetics.

(I've never seen/heard it before)

I don't know how it would change the sound either.

the quotes from those books make it sound like they're talking about it under all contexts (initial medial final)

and basically all standard english

Anonymous

There is a description I can type up in The Sounds of the World's Languages (Ladefoged & Maddieson 1996)

do you have any idea how labialization sounds different from without it?

But I don't feel like I do it (like Greg Lee's comment as an answer)

@Mitch It makes it a shushier sound.

Shore vs. sure to New Englanders, I think.

That's very technical of me.

user174558

1:36 AM

Hi @KitZ.Fox!

Hi @Jasper.

Anonymous

> The more posterior sibilant in English, symbolized ʃ in the IPA tradition, has been variously described. Jones (1956), Abercrombie (1967), Ladefoged (1993), and Prator and Robinett (1985) call it a palato-alveolar fricative. Bronstein (1960) describes the tongue position in much the same way as Jones, but uses the term alveolo-palatal.

@KitZ.Fox ha! like that thing where you do that thing?

Anonymous

> Most of the authors note that the constriction in ʃ is wider as well as being further back than in s. Both Jones and Bronstein say that most people make this sound with the top of the tongue up, but that some speakers have the tip of the tongue down behind the lower front teeth.

Anonymous

> Borden and Harris (1980) somewhat eccentrically describe English ʃ as palatal. Hockett (1958) describes it as a lamino-alveolar or lamino-domal surface spirant, involving "a close approximation of a whole area, from side to side and from back to front."

Anonymous

1:37 AM

> English ʃ is similar to s in that for both sounds the teeth are close together, making them strident fricatives. There are several differences between them: the constriction is further back and wider for ʃ; the part of the tongue immediately behind the constriction for ʃ is raised (or domed), as opposed to being hollowed for s; and ʃ has added lip rounding or protrusion.

Anonymous

> It should be noted that the secondary articulation of lip rounding is a feature of ʃ in some languages, such as English and French, but it is not found in many other languages, such as Russian.

Anonymous

(p.148)

@Mitch Yes. Exactly. It's shushier. My littlest does it. I do not.

hm...maybe I'm doing it now.

augh I've just become aware of my tongue!

Anonymous

@Mitch I can answer this if you give me some time.

1:39 AM

mleah. mleah.

Anonymous

It's extremely difficult to observe your own articulatory phonetics.

Anonymous

Reason being, when you're paying attention, you may not do the same thing you normally do.

Anonymous

The best thing to do is to film the lips of someone who doesn't know what you're looking for.

@snailboat I don't think it changes the sound for me, but maybe I do do the secondary articulation.

Anonymous

I think the difference in sound must be subtle.

1:40 AM

@snailboat That seems to really bother the people I do that to.

"Hey, can you say the word that rhymes with the stuff you pick out of your nose and means something sweet?"

Anonymous

@Mitch Well, you get their consent first :-) I did exactly that, but I can't share the video files.

"Um can you do that again but wait for me to film you?"

"Ow, you don't have to slap me"

Anonymous

It's easier to control your own articulatory phonetics, though. Easier than observing.

@snailboat I thought at first it was anticipatory articulation of the vowels.

Anonymous

@Mitch But then why would it happen in coda position, as it apparently does for some speakers?

user174558

1:42 AM

@snailboat Have you read Eats, Shoots And Leaves?

Anonymous

@JasperLoy No, that sort of book doesn't fit my particular interests very well.

@snailboat Like how it's easier to control your own thoughts, but not those of others. Actually controlling your own isn't that easy either.

Anonymous

@Mitch Well, it takes some training :-)

@snailboat It's very short though.

@snailboat I really enjoyed reading books on meditation when I was younger. But trying to do it really bored me.

Just like 'The Two Towers'

Anonymous

@Mitch I meditate! :-)

user174558

1:44 AM

@Mitch You mean the book or the movie?

user174558

Mental patients need medication, mediation and meditation.

@JasperLoy Both, but for very different reasons

@snailboat So before my little munchkin came down to tell me he didn't feel good, I was going to say "retroflexion".

Which is how we were taught four Chinese sounds.

Anonymous

Also, I like the word 瞑想 (Japanese: /meisoʜ/, Mandarin: míngxiǎng). Even more when you write 瞑 as 冥 :-)

user174558

OMG, for doing almost nothing I earned a hat.

user174558

1:48 AM

18 more days to 2016.

@JasperLoy You earned a hat!?

Woo!

Anonymous

Yay!

user174558

You mean you people have not? I thought you would have over 9000 already!

I have just one.

So far. wiggles eyebrows

Anonymous

I have two hats.

Anonymous

1:51 AM

I managed to put my current hat in a place that works on multiple profile images :-)

Aw! I didn't notice it until I embiggened you.

Anonymous

@Mitch Rounding the lips lowers all formants for most vowels. (Ladefoged & Maddieson 1996 p.358)

Anonymous

Labialization is often accompanied by tongue back raising, but I believe it is not in English.

Anonymous

This is what L&M call "simple labialization":

Anonymous

> Simple labialization, not accompanied by any raising of the back of the tongue, is most often found as an "enhancing" feature (Stevens, Keyser and Kawasaki 1986) which supplements a primary contrast of another kind. The example of liprounding in the ʃ segments of English and French (Abry, Boë, Gentil, Descout, and Graillot 1979) is well known; a degree of rounding of the lips seems to serve to distinguish the sibilant pair s–ʃ by further lowering the center of gravity of the spectrum of ʃ.

Anonymous

1:59 AM

(p.358 again)

sry AFK because of cake

@snailboat OK, I accept that it exists but is so counterintuitive that I will forget it and need to be reminded of it tomorrow.

But I propose that it makes no perceptual difference. Despite all the authority that you give to support it.

@snailboat Really? What kind? And what does it do for you?

Anonymous

@Mitch That's not necessarily wrong. You might not perceive any difference, even if the physical quality differs.

Anonymous

There's three basic parts to phonetics: articulatory phonetics (how you make the sounds), acoustic phonetics (the physical properties of the sounds that are created), and auditory phonetics (how you perceive the sounds).

I do not recognize language change until the barbarians are at the gate. Literally. All that screaming will change your phonology right away.

Anonymous

Obviously, all three are related, but just because there's an articulatory and acoustic difference doesn't mean that there's an auditory difference.

2:07 AM

and writing tends to mix them all up

@JasperLoy so what do you think of those two, the book and the movie?

Anonymous

@Mitch I do mindfulness meditation. I focus on breathing and clear my mind, sitting in a way that makes it difficult to fall asleep (sleep is not the goal) but with my eyes nearly closed.

Anonymous

I'm not sure if this makes sense exactly, but it puts me into a mental state where I feel more like I've slept well.

'difficult to fall asleep' sounds like 'slightly uncomfortable'

so emptying your mind is the goal (for mindfulness)?

Anonymous

If I absorb a continuous stream of information all day, I start to burn out on it a bit, and meditating gets my brain back into the state where it's working the way I want it to. Or, y'know, a little closer to that state. :-) It feels like giving my brain a break.

for how long? 20 minutes?

Anonymous

2:11 AM

@Mitch Yeah, just focus on your breathing, try to clear your mind. It's harder than it sounds!

Anonymous

I don't do it for any particular amount of time, but 15 to 30 minutes is good.

Anonymous

You can probably get instruction at a local temple if you're interested.

Anonymous

One of my friends taught me.

temple? Is there... you know... stuff that comes along with it?

Anonymous

You don't have to be religious.

Anonymous

2:13 AM

I'm not.

Anonymous

My best friend is Thai and recommended I learn at a Thai temple :-)

reading wikipedia about mindfulness

just read quite a bit more than just mindfulness

realizes failed at being mindful

but now I know how they know that the milky way galaxy has two arms and we're in one of them and where

2:31 AM

I like trying to be mindful. I suck at it, but it's still interesting.

I think the effort has helped me considerably with my mental health.

Anonymous

I do a lot of breathing exercises. I have lots of anxiety.

I like the idea of it. But the actual doing it...

I've heard that there are meditation techniques that allow one to 'deal' with tinnitus. It doesn't get rid of the tinnitus but it somehow leads you to not be bothered by it.

@snailboat Me too. I used to.

@Mitch Yeah, like listening on the other side of it, so you don't hear it anymore. It's still there, but you ignore it.

3:33 AM

If meditation were taught academically, what faculty would it be in? Religion? Clinical Psychology? Cognitive Psychology? or would it be practical like Kinesiology?

Anonymous

winterbash2015.stackexchange.com/leaderboard/…

Anonymous

Oh wait, it's vote ten times in the app? I can do that :-)

Anonymous

Wait, that would mean installing the app again . . .

Anonymous

Oh, why not.

Too zonked for hatting.

SO past my bedtime.

3:44 AM

Once again, watching "Once in a lifetime" or "It happened one night" or what is that name of that movie... "It's a Wonderful Life"!

And it's a really great movie... all these little details that all intertwine... Zuzu's petals... "Look at me I'm giving away wings!" ... except one clunker

George is running around town and discovering how him not being around totally changes everything...tragedy after tragedy because of hi not existing... and it crescendoes in terribleness until the final terrible horrific blow...

Mary, his wife to be, without him, becomes... shudder_... it's painful to even say it.

@KitZ.Fox She turns out to be instead... a librarian. A spinster librarian... in glasses

shocking!

Anonymous

... if you don't know the word "gravid" you're basically not a functional English speaker. How "simple" do words have to be to know them? Surely "pregnant" is far too technical and medical to be "known"? Good grief. — Joe Blow 11 hours ago

Anonymous

Wow.

Anonymous

It's not even in the top 50,000 most common words.

Anonymous

You must have to learn an awful lot of words to become functional as an English speaker :-)

3:59 AM

Oops.. one more clunker "I'm saving this for my divorce...if I ever get married" 'haha it's funny because I'm the only black person here and you know how black people are'.

@snailboat that guy! always has a 'tude.

user174558

@Mitch Movie is OK, not read book.

@JasperLoy You have to read the whole trilogy. and frankly also the Hobbit, to have any idea.

Anonymous

@JasperLoy If you're interested, I suggest reading The Hobbit first.

The Two Towers (the book, or the two volumes making up the second book), for me, is just slow, the mid game of a chess game where pieces are all moving around on the chess board for what reason I don't get.

user174558

I have watched most of the 6 movies in Hobbit/LOTR.

4:03 AM

The movie... I couldn't tell the difference between it and the other two, lot's have shields and swards banging.

@JasperLoy well, you got the story good enough then.

user174558

I found a new site with lots of movies to watch, yay!

Oh?

user174558

Well, I am not very good at finding these sites, so when I find one, it is good news.

what is the site?

user174558

Hmm, I had better not write it here, or the site might be gone tomorrow!

4:05 AM

oh.

user174558

It's Mon here. That means Christmas is next Fri. Time flies.

?? Oh, the Friday after this coming one?

in 13 days?

user174558

11 days.

user174558

This is what the internet does to your arithmetic, lol.

Oh. math

I didn't realize what date it is.

user174558

4:13 AM

@Mitch Have you done any coding theory or cryptography? I think I should read up more on these topics.

@JasperLoy very elementary stuff. I remember coding theory by hamming to be very accessible. I found Sphere Packing Groups and Lattices, a classic, to be ... either too technical or not technical enough or something. hardly anything about cryptography except what I've picked up recreationally (like I have vague ideas about RSA and multipyling primes and somethety something one-time pad something, but that's about it).

9:54 AM

Anyone interested in Literature?

:-)

@skillpatrol Hmm, there was a Literature site. It got shut down.

I think I actually asked a couple of questions there.

@FaheemMitha yes, this is the latest proposal.

10:08 AM

@skillpatrol I posted on the Frying Pan. I'll also post to a couple of other rooms.

Thanx pal :-)

Ok, posted to 4 rooms, the ones I'm in. Apart from this one, obviously.

10:34 AM

@FaheemMitha I starred your post in the biosphere.

Jez

hat-wearing...

not reflected in chat avatars

10:51 AM

@skillpatrol Thank you.

np pal :-)

Kevin Bridges - Bus Stop Joke

@Cerberus Can you understand this?

►

11:19 AM

I would give the guy the money :-/

And then go to the cops.

Jez

12:05 PM

where my hat go????

Damkerng T.

12:20 PM

@Jez I see your hat. :-)

12:40 PM

I can't believe we don't have the "Every! Body! Gets! A hat!" hat yet.

That's what happens when Reg leaves.

@tchrist Yes.

Can you?

Scotch gets hard when it's spoken faster.

But I missed nary a word there.

It's interesting that the sound of hi should turn almost into hoi, which is commonly used in Dutch (among other forms).

1:13 PM

'Hi'? He's saying 'Hey!' Or 'Oi!'

hoi polloi. I'm pretty sure.

Jez

1:32 PM

@DamkerngT. curious, i dont (in chat)

1:47 PM

HATS!

HATS!

How to short a message saying "Customers must queue when all seats are occupied. Making reservation, i.e., making an appointment followed by leaving the queue and coming back later, is not possible." so the notice board becomes simpler?

"We don't take reservations. Please queue if all seats are taken."

@Hugo Thank you very much.

you're welcome

2:13 PM

@Mitch hello my friend hello

Is it correct and understandable to make a notice "All seats are for non-smoking until 19:00" in a restourant?

All seating is non-smoking until after 19:00.

Or No Smoking until after 19:00.

yes, I prefer "No smoking until after 19:00"

Is "No smoking until 19:00" without "after" clear enough?

mmm...yes.

2:18 PM

yes

Thanks. Another question.

Is "We need about 20 minutes to serve. Is it okay for you to wait?" understandable for the customers?

2:42 PM

Yes. Where I live, it would be common to have the host simply say "It will be about 20 minutes until we can seat you."

@YasashiiEirian I think the "to serve" is wrong here. Who is being served in that 20 minutes?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Customers.

serve requires an object.

@YasashiiEirian yes but which customers?

We need about 20 minutes to serve your orders.

If I said "I need 20 minutes to help you" then that means I need, from you, 20 minutes of your time, to help you (with something)

@YasashiiEirian So this is something that would make sense after the customer is seated and before the food arrives.

The customer is being served by the waiter, but the food hasn't been served (= placed on the table).

2:49 PM

Oh. It's 20 minutes until my order is ready.

But even then, it'd be more idiomatic to say "Your food will be ready in 20 minutes" or "It will take 20 minutes to prepare the sweet potato fries" or whatever.

Yes.

How about "It takes about 20 minutes to make the sweet potato fries."? Because "prepare" seems to mean just "preparing the ingredients". :-)

Yes, you could say that.

@YasashiiEirian make, prepare, either is fine.

2:53 PM

Thanks all!

prepare: make (something) ready for use

when you prepare food, you make it ready to eat.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 forget that. I'm going to Taco Bell.

@Mitch That's your god-given right. Stand up to authority! Don't let those SJWs complain that taco bell is cultural appropriation! Vote Trump in 2016!

I like Taco Hell aka Taco Smell aka that place I get cravings for sometimes.

Especially now that it is paired with KFC.

So @Mitch, ready to Meta again?

@Cerberus Mostly, but I have to be paying attention. Their really are a lot of vowel shifts.

@KitZ.Fox It's only 8am here. Don't make me hungry for what they won't give me.

3:10 PM

I am so cold.

I was thinking of trying to compose a question about spelling shifts, but I can't even think about work right now, much less something interesting.

@KitZ.Fox Arem you in the 40s?

Temperature, not age. :)

No, 30s to both.

I have 27. But they threaten us with unfreezing.

It's been quite warm here, but not today, and my toe warmer decided to stop working.

Lazy cat.

My brain is completely filled with $job right now. No room for hathink.

Too much context-switch latency.

Mental.

3:29 PM

not even time to claim the "ask, answer, or vote on December 14th" hat?

Pretty sure he's already got that.

sadly my best candidate for a gold badge answer is the handegg question from last year's hat dash

Which one?

85

A: What’s a “handegg”?

It's a football reference. The hat is a football helmet The football is egg-shaped and held in your hands A touchdown is worth 7 points (including the obligatory point-after-touchdown) Urban Dictionary Wiktionary

I have a potential silver here: english.stackexchange.com/questions/10458/when-is-y-a-vowel

Yeah, can't help you on those. Maybe someone else can.

3:42 PM

You call that a handegg?

That reminds me that I was wondering if there is a reason we don't teach w as a vowel.

Since it is as much one as y.

So 25 votes gets a silver? Is that right? Like if I had one more on this answer?

sorry used all my votes today. should have reserved some for do-goodery!

yes 25 gets the Good Question/Answer silver

I don't think I am anywhere near a gold badge.

this is but one vote off a silver hat: english.stackexchange.com/a/65812/9001 worth it for wordcount if nothing else?

Man alive, @Hugo, I think you're the reason I've even heard of the "excessive word count" flag.

You really ought to be writing blog articles for EL&U.

3:56 PM

didn't even know there was such a flag!

I'm happy to donate excessive words from answers to blogs

just put them all in a bag, shake, them, and poof! out comes a blog post.

@MattE.Эллен Found a volunteer for your blog army.

Matt's blog chatroom's size has increased!

It is now 2.

last year someone had an sede query for finding near-badge posts

tchrist, maybe? I remember helping with some SQL.

4:04 PM

@KitZ.Fox yes but in a couple hours (I'm in the road at the moment). Unless someone else wants to try their hand at it.

thank you for the silver, kind hatgivers!

Answers close to the silver Necromancer badge
http://data.stackexchange.com/english/query/155853/answers-close-to-the-necromancer-badge

I used up my daily votes on those

I want a hat ;-;

@DeltaEscher just vote anywhere today and you get one

Forever?

Hatttttttttttttt

@Hugo Modified so that it doesn't take a userid: data.stackexchange.com/english/query/408591/…

4:12 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh, I had just.... never mind.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Thanks let's star that for future [c]hatroom reference!

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You could put the user on it, so that we don't double up.

(wanna update the query description too?)

I'm doing a cool project for school

I'm making an entire world similar to Earth and I get to simulate developing nations.

Silver and Gold, Silver and Gold, everyone wishes for Silver and Gold

3

4:17 PM

People need to pay attention though! Because that's old data, so it doesn't automagically update when you vote.

is hat

how is equip hat

do you need help?

Yes

I have fallen and require assistance

Open your hat menu.

Select the hat you want.

In the popup, select Wear Hat.

Does that help?

Where is the hat menu

4:22 PM

The snowflake on the top bar.

What top bar

I'm not pulling your leg

I'm utterly confused

The black bar at the top of the screen on the main page, where it has the link to your profile.

on the site, next to the notifications, there's a snowflake

Announcing Winter Bash 2015

Here, maybe this will help:

Pops on December 14, 2015

Another calendar year is ending, which can mean only one thing. It's time once again for the event that brings joy to all (with a slight helping of dismay for our friends in the southern hemisphere1): Winter Bash!

Thank you

4:24 PM

Some secret hats: 007, Archimedes, Hairboat's Revenge

How do I get those

I must have more hats

@KitZ.Fox Any idea how you got Hairboat's Revenge?

@Hugo I have Hairboat's Revenge. I'm wearing it right now.

@Hugo Yes.

How do I get Archimedes>

That sounds cool

You get Archimedes by guessing how to get a secret hat.

4:26 PM

is confus

Despite knowing that, I have never gotten a hat for guessing a secret hat, even though there is one every year.

hmm, maybe you get Hairboat's Revenge by commenting on one of abby hairboat's posts or replying to one of her comments. Do I get Archimedes?

lemme try

Updated Silver+Gold query: data.stackexchange.com/english/query/408589/…

No, I don't think so. You got Hairboat last year by commenting on one of her posts, meaning that she was flooded with comments last year. So she is getting her revenge this year.

Maybe you can only get one if SHE comments to you

4:27 PM

hmm, maybe commenting on another mod's posts then, the one who dreamt up that first one

That would seem like a reasonable guess.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Awesome. Now can you put whether it is an answer or a question? Because I am trying to maximize my votes. ;-)