English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

6:25 PM

> elæo-, comb. form of Gr. ἕλαιο-ν oil (properly olive-oil), used in technical, chiefly chemical, words, as elæocerate /ˌɛliːəʊˈsɪəreɪt/ cf. cerate, same as cerate. elæomargaric (acid) /ˌɛliːəʊmɑ˞ːˈgærɪk/, a. cf. margaric, an acid found in the oil extracted from the seeds of some species of Elæococca. elæometer /ɛliːˈɒmɪtə(r)/; also elaio- see meter, ‘an instrument for determining the specific weight of oils, and so their purity’ (Syd. Soc. Lex.).
elæopten(e /ɛliːˈɒptiːn/, also ela-; Gr. πτην-ός winged, volatile: cf. Fr. éléoptène, the liquid part of a volatile oil, as distinguished from th…

@MattE.Эллен Which you already said.

terdon

@tchrist Far from it. I love the stuff. And I think it would be elaiophbia or something.

Yes, eleophobic is oil-repelling.

> "Oleophobic" (from the Latin oleum "oil", Greek ελαιοφοβικό eleophobico from έλαιο eleo "oil" and φόβος phobos "fear") refers to the physical property of a molecule that is repelled from oil.

That's the Latin version.

There are various "eleophobic coatings" people sell.

This is like how the Spanish word for oil is olive-oil.

> Features:
iOS 7
9.7-inch Retina display
Fingerprint resistant eleophobic coating
5 MP iSight camera with autofocus and FaceTime HD cameras
A7 chip with 64-bit architecture and M7 motion coprocessor
Up to 10 hours of surfing the web

Anonymous

Hello. Would it is ok it use A highschool-level textbook instead of A high school-level textbook, when referring to textbooks in relation to high school?

Anonymous

It seems high school is correct, but not highschool which is strange also, since similar-meaning word like textbook is correct, but not text book

That's just a quirk of the vocabulary. "highschool" just isn't a correct word.

high school-level is correct, though you will also sometimes see high-school-level (though I'm pretty sure that's incorrect grammar)

Anonymous

6:40 PM

I guess I'll have to use that.

Anonymous

But yeah, it's quirky. Because textbook to a text book is just the same phrase as a highschool is to a high school and they are written different.

When in Roman. . . .

@tchrist are these subtracting "school" from "high" ?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No, it's their tokenization.

books.google.com/ngrams/…

ah. they are.

6:48 PM

What do you mean?

Not subtraction.

Anonymous

Just curious, is there an International/World body/organization that oversees or regulates the usage of the English language and make amendments to quirky errors like this?

@samayo What errors?

And no, we have no English mafiosi to remove your kneecaps.

Anonymous

@tchrist Not errors, but more like contradictions as in the example of textbook vs high school

if I search for [high-school] to force-disable subtraction, I get zero results

It is not possible. Language does not work that way.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Your subtraction theory makes sense graphically.

Thing is, you know that “high-school” occurs.

Anonymous

6:51 PM

@tchrist Well, you are obviously missing out on 2015

So something is hosed.

although I can't get the [] brackets to work on other examples. All I know is that ngrams hates hyphens.

@tchrist I checked ngrams for "high school-level" vs "high school level" but the latter returns a lot cases where "level" was being used as a noun, so I discounted it :\

@samayo You cannot pass laws or regulations about how people write or speak.

e.g. "this is a high school-level textbook" vs. "this textbook is used at the high school level"

6:53 PM

high school, high-school, (high - school)

@tchrist I conclude that this query is properly formed.

I wish ngrams didn't overload hyphens with minuses

Anonymous

@tchrist I disagree with it because there should be amendments made to any contradiction or inconsistent aspects any language, since it hinders communication.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I hassled FF on this whole matter once. Any idea how to make it tell us what we want?

@samayo Huh?

That doesn't work. We don't murder people for saying or writing whatever they please.

And it is evil to consider it.

@tchrist I think you did it right. But if in doubt, do [high - school] to force ngram's weird tokenization without subtraction, or (high - school) to subtract school from high.

@samayo who would be the people in authority to make such changes and how would they enforce it?

Anonymous

Well, the primary use of languages is for communicating, and I am just saying that if certain words create problems in this scenario, then they should be amended.

6:57 PM

@samayo How the hell do you "amend" a word?

Anonymous

@MikeEdenfield the same people that are creating new words every year

@samayo the entire English-speaking population of the planet are the ones creating new words

someone just makes up a word, and other people either like it and use it, or don't and it withers away and dies

Anybody can do anything they please: it's their language after all. So it has always been and so it shall always be.

Anonymous

@MikeEdenfield but there are authoritative figures (so to speak) like the Oxford Dictionary.

@samayo There's no natural language that doesn't have ambiguities, contradictions, and inconsistencies. It's pretty much impossible.

6:58 PM

I believe some countries try a little harder than that to regulate their language, but I'm not clear how well it works.

It doesn't.

@samayo those dictionaries only document the language that is in use. They don't make up words, they find words that are already being used and write them down. Often years after they enter the language.

Only evil empires levy penalties for language they don't like.

It's fiendishly difficult to make a computer language express a wide variety of concepts in a consistent manner without any confusion or ambiguity, let alone a general-purpose language.

Anonymous

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I know that! But why not correct it? What is there to loose, if it is in fact interfering with your daily life.

7:00 PM

Human languages are not buggy constructs that can be "fixed". This isn't FORTRAN.

@samayo It isn't, in fact, interfering.

And consider how hard it is to get people to update their computer's compiler to the latest version so that everyone is "speaking" the same variant of C++ or Javascript. It literally cannot be done. Now try that with 7B human speakers.

And for "high school level" just add hyphens until there's no more ambiguity. That's what hyphens do. "high-school-level".

There is, in fact, already a language feature for written language that solves the "problem".

in speaking, without punctuation, you'll have to rely on intonation.

Or rewording.

Or context.

And as for language authorities dictating usage, that only works to a limited degree. If the people like what you're dictating, they'll go along with it. If they don't like it, they'll rebel.

Anonymous

Not necessarily authoritative to the point of dictating everyone, but a leading figure wouldn't be that bad.

People follow whom they will.

Think of how many L1 + L2 speakers of English there are.

Yes, having a spelling authority works reasonably well.

Find something you like, then go thou and do likewise.

7:08 PM

Not when people really dislike their rules, but otherwise they are a nice standard to adhere to when in doubt.

Anonymous

If I was in a position of power for instance, I would either make highschool, textbook or high-school, text-book the proper way to use similar words. The purpose being that in the future, when people need to write similar phrases which they could only pronounce, then they can use similar conventions to at least narrow down any potential errors.

Microsoft is not your God.

@Cerberus I'm shocked you admit anyone's authority in what you are permitted to utter.

That is not what a spelling authority does.

Except in theory for the government's own official communication.

At least not in countries that I know.

@samayo words evolve that way naturally. adjectives and nouns or noun phrases are coined as needed, and eventually they may become reanalyzed as single words (possibly spelled with a hyphen or a space). But it's a slow process.

7:10 PM

What they do in Québec is a little different...

@Cerberus It's the Man trying to keep a dog down!

or three dogs

?

whatever floats your boat

Don't let those stiff-necked bureaucrats tell you what to write!

A spelling authority is like ISO standards.

English has no spelling authority.

7:11 PM

ugh, I hate ISO standards, except the useful ones.

I think you are assuming people are obliged to follow the authority's rules. They're not.

Anonymous

^

@Cerberus No, I'm mocking you for supporting spelling authorities yet constantly complaining whenever people try to otherwise police your language ;)

Well, spelling authorities aren't policing people, eh.

I have previously signalled that I will duly authorize you to use my meagre rules, with a different color for each head.

7:13 PM

Inconsistency!

I shall have mockery outlawed!

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Why?

Nor is the ISO policing people.

@Cerberus Internet rule #57. Any position you take must be taken to the extreme or else you are a hypocrite.

Robusto

next to of course god america i
love you land of the pilgrims' and so forth oh
say can you see by the dawn's early my
country 'tis of centuries come and go
and are no more what of it we should worry
in every language even deafanddumb
thy sons acclaim your glorious name by gorry
by jingo by gee by gosh by gum
why talk of beauty what could be more beaut-
iful than these heroic happy dead
who rushed like lions to the roaring slaughter
they did not stop to think they died instead
then shall the voice of liberty be mute?

Cute sonnet, yeah? e. e. cummings, of course.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So you're the Internet Authority now?

@Cerberus No, just informing you of the rules.

7:15 PM

@samayo Who lays down the law for what words you are allowed to use where you live?

You must be Hitler, then, informing me of my obligations to serve the Übermenschen.

Anyway, here is a pic of Greek ships anchored off of Troy, while the Horse is led into the gates

Godwon.

I kinda like this mensch question, so I hesitate to ask, but why isn't it closed for being an opinion based poll?

7:16 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That's nice.

Anonymous

@tchrist I have no knowledge of that. But I assume the Ministry of Education does have a say in that are.

Anonymous

Also, ~~laws~~ standards.

@samayo Your language is only spoken in one little country?

Can you imagine Scotland obeying the U.S. government, or vice versa?

65 countries have English as an official language.

35 countries have made English their sole official language.

Who gets to decide what the others shall do?

@tchrist Again, lots of assumptions. Why don't you study the actual thing instead?

Anonymous

@tchrist pretty much. But there is nothing to obey in authoritative context, but rather set standard.

7:20 PM

The Dutch language authority is a collaboration of people in Holland, Belgium, and Suriname.

Anonymous

Or to paraphrase, take a look at the Plug & socket types world standards

@Cerberus lol. "Romans and Barbarians"

It's nice, huh?

Especially considering that there were no Romans during the Trojan War.

it's one of the despised clone brands

It was my purpose to shock you.

7:22 PM

@Cerberus huh?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 How do you feel about a Lego authority? Should clones be illegal? Or just officially despised?

@samayo ~7 million in one place is one thing — that's like one city. But there are just too many countries and too many people ever to try that in English. I'm sure a city could have its own standard. Many do. :)

@Cerberus There is a Lego authority, but they don't have the power to make clones illegal, which is good as it helps keep them competitive, but the clones are despised anyway.

This is why there are style guides.

But they are just that. Guides.

@Mazura It's not necessarily opinion-based. It is asking if people will understand a phrase.

7:25 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Right, so that is similar to our spelling society. They don't make anything illegal, but other things are despised if the rules of the authority make sense to the people.

Anonymous

Well, in light of this discussion, this may be a very interesting topic.

@Cerberus Face it. The only authority in how you spell words is how you expect your audience to react.

@tchrist It is very similar to a style guide, except that it is an internationally agreed upon guide, formed by representatives from different places, and sanctioned by participating government for official government communications.

@samayo No offence, but your English is excellent, and I would not expect you need a guiding authority here.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Not sure what that means.

Anonymous

7:29 PM

@tchrist Thank you. :)

@Cerberus You spell words so that other people can read them. You use conventional spelling if you want the spelling to avoid attention, unconventional spelling otherwise. It's all based on what the reader is expecting. It doesn't matter how much you may feel, as I do, that words like "one" and "once" should start with "w"... you don't spell them that way because people will think you can't spell... or you spell them that way on purpose, to make a point.

If everyone spells a word a certain way, you go along with it unless you want to risk being seen as clueless, or if you want to make a specific point.

Yes, but so what?

So it doesn't really matter what "authorities" there are.

it just matters what most people do.

A spelling authority fits into your system.

What if most people do what the authority tells them to do, if it has enough authority to convince them?

Then the Man has had his way with you.

MετάEd

7:35 PM

I for one welcome our new orthography overlords.

Hey Eddie!

What man? Maybe the authority is led by a woman.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Minority-hating racist.

@Cerberus who? The Man? Yes, his racism is well-documented.

7:50 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Asking Do [you think] people will understand asks for opinions. Do people understand is a poll. What's y'all's thoughts on this, from both sides of the water? is an opinion-poll/discussion. No?

@Mazura The question could be reworded, maybe. But evidence can be brought to bear on whether people understand things. Looking at usage data, for example.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Agreed, it should basically be asking for Ngrams, but those are stupid IMO. Also, I don't see much evidence going on anyway; just peoples takes on it.

8:06 PM

@Mazura Which question?

Act like a mensch

Yeah, that's not a good one.

And ngrams are not going to buy you anything much.

It would have been better if it had two answers (one for BE and one for AE), supplied by the OP: OK people meta-vote away; if you're American, please vote on this one... I.e., a poll.

You'd need one of those sampling maps.

It really doesn't work for our format to try to generate the data needed.

Now that would be data. Maybe I'm just irked that there's like six BE answers that say the same thing: nope.

8:12 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No, yours, you racist!

Comment chain is too long.

I have just pointed two compatriots of yours or of Tom's to some bars.

They wanted to know what it was like to live here.

@tchrist So is the list of answers.

I know.

There are no close votes.

17 answers, 1 deleted.

Mitch

Calling someone racist is racist. Racist against racismists.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

8:17 PM

I can't tell who won the ELLection.

@Mitch I admit it.

@tchrist Was the deleted answer a heavily DVed American one? ;p

@Mazura It was a self-answer.

Mitch

Why can't you say? Sworn to secrecy?

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 I'm being told Maulik, J.R. and WendiKidd won.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

8:20 PM

Thanks for the ellipsis.

@Mitch I said.

@MikeEdenfield Half-surprised.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 for all the gory details: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/23964966#23964966

Mitch

8:47 PM

I thought I'd let everyone know that I'm unconsciously more often than not making the mistake of typing 'a nother' for 'another'.

That is all.

9:00 PM

That's OK. Every time I try to type season, it comes out seaon: 'a' is too close to 's'; both right next to 'e'. You should try to read my handwriting. I bet I'd have jammed the typewriter typing this.

I recently decided to call a new feature of our software "withdrawals", meaning it's now part of table names, class names, property names, file names, stored proc names, view names, etc.

Then I realized I can't spell withdrawal right to save my life

Write an Autohotkey script that auto-corrects it for you?

I have it correct e.g. don;t into don't.

And many other common typos.

9:18 PM

What do you call SE users that post trite garbage to be first and then profusely edit it into coherency? IMO, FGitW doesn't mean they come back to edit it.

Am I the only one who enjoys having un-edited highly up-voted answers?

@Mazura The future is unbounded.

9:56 PM

data.stackexchange.com/english/query/361503/…

10:15 PM

@Mazura Is there some reason you have not yet closevoted it? :)

Me, I have a good excuse.

Because I upvoted it lol

glares

I began this inquiry with, "I hesitate to ask, because I like this question"

@tchrist I don't think I've violated my personal criteria for voting, but I find it odd that others haven't brought this up. Might I ask why you've refrained?

@Mazura I only get 2 closevotes per hour. How long do you think those last me?

30 seconds. Got ya ;p

10:29 PM

If that.

10:40 PM

Hi all

I've got a brief question

Which of the following is correct: "into an (in general non-associative) division algebra" or "into a (in general non-associative) division algebra"

The difference is "an" vs. "a"

But the complication due to the parentheses has me confused. Any help?

What's the next sound?

Just read it as though there were no parens.

Ah, okay.

Then I'm all set.

The rule is based on sounds, not writing.

Therefore punctuation cannot matter.

@tchrist I thought one might argue that the parenthesized segment could/should be omitted when reading

No.

10:43 PM

@tchrist Okay. Thanks for the help.

It’s a sandhi rule.

You could put the parens after, you know.

@tchrist What do you mean?

Insert the parentheses "by hand" after the document is already finished?

> into a division algebra — in general, a non-associative one.

Or put it between division and algebra.

Because asides are often after-the-fact.

@tchrist That's definitely not an option (it's a matter of mathematical terminology).

But I see what you're saying.

isn't that missing an of? division of algebra

10:46 PM

Well, you want a non-associative division algebra. Usually.

@Mazura No, it's a division algebra

What’s a division algebra? :)

^^

@tchrist The reals, complex numbers, quaternions and octonions.

Those are the only four division algebras.

Rings.

10:47 PM

Sorry, those are the only normed division algebras, I think.

@tchrist They are also rings, yes.

I say one of the instead of 'a' or 'an', but I've no idea what we're talking about.

@Mazura Actually, my sentence is about $\mathbb{K}-linear$ algebras, not division algebras.

@tchrist You should add that this is by no means obvious: it's just an established convention.

I didn't want to bother you guys with the LaTeX :P

@Cerberus It’s obvious to me!

It’s not a footnote. It has to be pronounced read-through.

10:50 PM

It is also obvious to you that your name is Tom.

@tchrist That's a dangerous way of thinking.

But it is not obvious in general.

An apple a¹ day kept the boojums away.

An apple an (even every other) day does a pretty good job, too.

1. even every other

@tchrist To me, it's quite counterintuitive.

I intuitively look for the word after the parentheses first.

Really? Then how could it scan?

I read left to right, and do not care to backtrack.

All I can tell you is what makes sense to me, what sounds right to me as a native speaker.

10:54 PM

@tchrist I guess reading textbooks on mathematics induces certain peculiar reading habits ;)

2

I need an (eight-times) bigger truck.

Read it aloud.

Yeah, it sounds wrong to me.

But "a eight" is what you cannot say.

"An eight" is mandatory.

I know; I'm not saying you're wrong.

I need a bigger — an eight-times bigger — truck to haul all this crud away.

10:56 PM

@tchrist I'd much prefer that

Recitation brings enlightment.

@Danu Me, too. That’s why I was trying to get you to move some parts.