English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Jez

12:01 AM

hmm. "the reason is because..."

is that strictly grammatical? I'd probably have said "the reason is [that]..."

tchrist

12:31 AM

Of course it is grammatical.

That, I suspect, may not be the point.

> I sat down at the table, closed my eyes, and took my first deep breath in what seemed like a year or so. The old woman looked at me and didn’t ask any questions, wherefore I gave her no answers. I really wished you were here, Kiera, because I felt the need to confess and to have some help sorting out what had just happened.

Publication date?

Go ahead, guess.

(This is from something of an epistolary novel, should that matter.)

Cerberus

@tchrist Hmm there isn't much to judge it by.

Wherefore is of course old fashioned, but not unheard of even in modern prose.

My guess would be 1850–1950.

tchrist

Thank you.

1996.

Cerberus

Ah.

tchrist

I have people saying to ignore it because it no longer exists or is ever used.

Cerberus

Haha.

The Lawlers of your circles.

Many wise men fall for the trap of declaring that x is not used.

tchrist

12:41 AM

These are clearly drunkards down by the railroad tracks, not connoisseurs of littérature.

Cerberus

Heh.

I like the two t's.

tchrist

And it is not me and mine, but ELU’s meagre Greatest Common Factor who cheer on the ignorant ever deeper into the pits of darkness.

1

A: Therefore vs. wherefore

Quick rule of thumb: Wherefore connects to the past; therefore to the future. Wherefore therefore means “why” or “which is why”. It is the same as the pairs where/there, whence/thence, whither/thither: they oppose each other. For example: Unlike programming languages, in which the way tha...

See the other answers an especially the comments.

Cerberus

@tchrist That is a very nice Platonic metaphor.

tchrist

Metaphor. That’s like something in books, not something people actually say? Best forget it.

Cerberus

Tsk, tsk.

A comparison that might help the Appretice: therefore/wherefore is like he/who. I like John; he has helped me on many occasions. I like John, who has helped me on many occasions. Technically, who and wherefore (can) introduce relative clauses and not independent clauses (hence the comma), while he and therefore are the opposite (hence the semicolon). The semicolon in Tolkien is an exception. — Cerberus 1 min ago

tchrist

12:55 AM

There seems to be some strange voting going on in that question. The post-literates would have their way with us, it appears.

I guess somebody likes their comic books.

French only has pour, I believe, in constructs like pourquoi.

Spanish and Portuguese have two ways of asking: por que asking from what cause in the past and para que asking to what purpose in the future.

"I did it for Julia" uses por because it is for her sake, it is because of her in the past. "I did it for winning" uses para because it is for the future.

Sapir–Whorfish as that sounds, it makes me think of coming from the past and going to the future as different things.

Cerberus

Interesting.

tchrist

The OP’s Silmarillion quotes are actually from the Ainulindalë and the Valaquenta, not from the Quenta Silmarillion proper. Those were intentionally written in a very Old Testament style, especially the first one, which is like Genesis. But even the second is very Pentateuch-like — if Snorri Sturluson had written it instead of Moses. :)

Cerberus

1:12 AM

Ahh.

Who is that?

tchrist

That’s now two questions I’ve rescued from the close-bin.

Snorri?

pouts

Eddas?

Snorri Sturluson

Snorri Sturluson (1179 – 23 September 1241) was an Icelandic historian, poet, and politician. He was elected twice as a lawspeaker at the Icelandic parliament, the Althing. He was the author of the Prose Edda or Younger Edda, which consists of Gylfaginning ("the fooling of Gylfi"), a narrative of Norse mythology, the Skáldskaparmál, a book of poetic language, and the Háttatal, a list of verse forms. He was also the author of the Heimskringla, a history of the Norwegian kings that begins with legendary material in Ynglinga saga and moves through to early medieval Scandinavian history. For stylistic...

For a long time, some people thought he just made it all up, that there was no original oral-tradition Poetic/Elder Edda.

Then centuries later, we found copies.

It’s where all the dwarf-names come from.

Cerberus

Ah, I didn't know that. Nice name.

tchrist

> 10. Then was Môtsognir created greatest of all the dwarfs, and Durin second; there in man's likeness they created many dwarfs from earth, as Durin said.

11. Nýi and Nidi, Nordri and Sudri, Austri and Vestri, Althiôf, Dvalin Nâr and Nâin, Niping, Dain, Bivör, Bavör, Bömbur, Nori, An and Anar, Ai, Miodvitnir,

12. Veig and Gandâlf, Vindâlf, Thrain, Thekk and Thorin, Thrôr, Vitr, and Litr, Nûr and Nýrâd, Regin and Râdsvid. Now of the dwarfs I have rightly told.

13. Fili, Kili, Fundin, Nali, Hepti, Vili, Hanar, Svior, Billing, Bruni, Bild, Bûri, Frâr, Hornbori, Fræg and Lôni, Aurvang, Iari,…

That’s one translation.

It doesn’t translate the "pieces", like North, South, East, West. Oakenshield. Many others.

Or Wand-elf and Wind-elf.

> Most of the names presumably had some definite significance, as Northri, Suthri, Austri, and Vestri ("North," "South", "East," and "West"), [fp. 7] Althjof ("Mighty Thief'), Mjothvitnir ("Mead-Wolf"), Gandalf ("Magic Elf'), Vindalf ("Wind Elf'), Rathwith ("Swift in Counsel"), Eikinskjaldi ("Oak Shield"), etc., but in many cases the interpretations are sheer guesswork.

From here.

> The lists of the dwarves names in The Book of Edda Called Voluspa represent a list of contentious elements of light (good) and darkness (evil) – eg. the first dwarf Dravpnir (ringdropper), Dvalinn (spiritual patience), Lofar (praise) – the list also includes the names Durinn and Gandalf – and represent drunkenness (lusts and longings) vs intelligence (Jotunheim – pride) vs Elohim (divine ideas) – surrounded by ‘Serpent lures’

You would like the original mss. They have all kinds of the things you are used to and the rest of us are not.

Here, but translating into modern text representations is a pain when you don’t have enough scribal abbreviations encoded.

See what I mean? Doesn’t really do the mss justice.

Plus this is what happens when people don’t have dictionaries. :)

I found a side-by-side translation with Latin of all silly things!

books.google.com/…

Cerberus

1:40 AM

@tchrist That is the Edda, really?

tchrist

Yes.

Cerberus

Funny.

tchrist

Sigh, I can read the Latin better than the Norse. I feel a traitor to my name.

Cerberus

Of course.

Just as I can read a French translation of, say, Tacitus more easily than the original.

It is sad.

tchrist

Hah, sandr is arena.

-r is the nominative singular suffix.

Well, one of them.

Cerberus

1:45 AM

From sand, no doubt.

Arena meaning sand.

tchrist

That was my point. :(

Cerberus

@tchrist Does another one happen to be -s?

@tchrist I thought so.

tchrist

I don’t think so. Sometimes -n.

Cerberus

Odd.

tchrist

Tell that to the Icelendings.

Or whatever their gentilic should happen to be.

@Cerberus In particular, it is the Dvergatal from the Völuspá, the first poem of the Poetic Edda. Snorri used it nearly verbatim. Dverga is dwarves, which would now be dwarrow if things had gone as they should have. Tal is of course tally or count or reckoning.

That’s why Tolkien called Moria the great halls of the Dwarrowdelf.

tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Völuspá;

Cerberus

1:50 AM

Dwerg(en) in Dutch.

tchrist

Still not translating the names, but they pretty much all mean something.

Cerberus

@tchrist Or tale?

tchrist

I think those are the same, actually.

Cerberus

They are.

But the precise meaning of the title may be restricted to one sense/development or the other.

tchrist

Let me recount for you the accounting, as I count off each dwarf.

Cerberus

1:51 AM

Now, that is the Latin root...

Which does indeed show a similar array of meanings.

Cf. Latin lego "to collect, to collect words, to read", and Greek legô "to collect, to collect words, to speak".

Collect being from Latin lego, of course.

tchrist

Comptes de fées, Cuentos de hadas.

Cerberus

I bet letter is also related.

tchrist

Were counts the king’s tax collectors?

Cerberus

Nope.

tchrist

You ask for reckonings all the time, and the waiter tells you his taudry tale.

Cerberus

1:55 AM

They accompanied him.

tchrist

Ah.

Cerberus

From comes, "companion".

Which is probably from "fellow-eater, table companion".

tchrist

com - panion

Breadwither.

Cerberus

Ah, I was wrong: comes is from con- and eo "go".

tchrist

Gowither.

Cerberus

1:56 AM

@tchrist That is very well possible!

Or from pagus.

tchrist

> Etymology: a. OFr. compaignon, -pagnon = Pr. compagnó, Ital. compagnone :– late L. compāniōn-em, acc. of compānio, whence Ital. compagno, Pr. nom. companh, OFr. nom. compain, -paing, -painz. The late L. word is a deriv. of com- together + pān-is bread (the formation as in L. centūrio, libellio, etc.); perh., as Diez thinks, after the pattern of Goth. gahlaiba, OHG. galeipo mess-mate, similarly f. hlaib, leip, bread. The pl. conpāniōnes, and sb. of state conpānium ‘company’ (cf. L. contubernium, convīvium, etc.), occur in the Salic Law lxiii. §1. in a MS. of c 800; in Romanic conpagn (voc.…

Cerberus

Right!

And lord and lady are from that Germanic word meaning "bread".

tchrist

The staff of life.

Cerberus

Staff?

By the way, I think there was another word related to eating together...

Perhaps it was comrade, from com-prandium?

Or is that from camera?

Ah, yes, it is from soldiers who shared a camera.

tchrist

> Bread is called the "staff of life" because it is a very basic food that supports life.

Cerberus

2:03 AM

Odd.

tchrist

languagehat.com/staff-of-life

Massively parallel translations of the one verse, 10 IIRC.

Mitch

2:29 AM

copain

oh you mean in english

what does compadre mean?

[comrade (n.) Look up comrade at Dictionary.com
1590s, "one who shares the same room," from Middle French camarade (16c.), from Spanish camarada "chamber mate," originally "chamberful," from Latin camera (see camera). In Spanish, a collective noun referring to one's company. In 17c., sometimes jocularly misspelled comrogue. Related: Comradely; comradeship.](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=comrade)

Cerberus

2:42 AM

@Mitch No doubt the same word!

@Mitch From "father", as you no doubt know...

Mitch

3:37 AM

@Cerberus Oh yeah. looked it up. it actually means 'companion' in English from Spanish meaning godfather.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

I'm terribly excited to have ordered this: wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/sampler-kit/…

Whee!

skullpatrol

6:40 AM

Are you ready for some footBAAAAALL!? @cornbreadninja麵包忍者

Matt Эллен

9:12 AM

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 pretty!

Anonymous

9:30 AM

@tchrist I can't figure out why your answer has two downvotes.

Jez

11:23 AM

Hey guys

I implore you, if you have any kind of interest in health, please commit to the Health proposal:

92

Health

Proposed Q&A site for medical specialists, students, dietitians and anyone with health-related questions

Currently in commitment.

I'd really like to see this one get off the ground. We could get a really nice knowledgebase going with good factual answers to all sorts of health issues

particularly useful, as doctors frequently fail to tell you the whole truth if they're more interested in selling you a particular drug, or reducing their costs

user116848

11:47 AM

@skullpatrol Nice gravatar.

skullpatrol

Thanks pal :D
yours is cool too

very peaceful...

user116848

Yes it is :-)

skullpatrol

in my opinion, inner peace is an important aspect of life

user116848

Yes, definitely. Inner peace takes all the worries away.

user116848

But it is somewhat difficult to achieve.

skullpatrol

12:02 PM

indeed, my friend

Jez

12:49 PM

yay

i was getting hammered with SSH login failures, from some botnet

switched to a nonstandard SSH port and now, i get like one or two blocks a day from port scanning :-) take that hackers

Matt Эллен

yeah! lazy crackers deserve to lose.

Jez

they all deserve to lose. bastards

Matt Эллен

true

Jez

port knocking is the coolest, though

although hard to do, it would make it virtually impossible for their botnets to manage to even try to login

Matt Эллен

sort of a secret handshake before you make a secret handshake?

skullpatrol

12:58 PM

or perhaps a secret password combined with a secret handshake and a secret facial expression :D

Jez

1:15 PM

@MattЭллен a secret handshake except you don't know whether the other person is even paying attention to your handshake

Matt Эллен

@Jez ah. like all of my secret handshakes ;)

skullpatrol

Secret handshake

A secret handshake is a distinct form of handshake or greeting which conveys membership in or loyalty to a club, clique or subculture. The typical secret handshake involves placing one's fingers or thumbs in a particular position, one that will be recognized by fellow members while seeming to be a normal handshake to non-members. This is most frequently associated in the popular consciousness with college fraternities, fraternal orders and secret societies. A secret handshake can also be a useful form of familiar interaction between friends, colleagues, and family members. As a form of cryptography...

What will they write about next :/

Jez

we really need more people committed to the health stackexchange

don't any of you want to try?

skullpatrol

there is already a fitness stack exchange ...

Jez

not the same.

skullpatrol

1:20 PM

true

Matt Эллен

strangers on the internet telling me how to cure ailments? I dunno, doesn't sound like the best plan. "Just use this homeopathic admixture", "I have been blessed by the christ. Come to my house and I will touch you (and cure your sickness)"

Jez

yeah, i think i could separate the wheat from the chaff.

Matt Эллен

it's not us I'm worried about :)

Jez

besides, that kind of answer (where one can't give trusted medical sources) might be unacceptable.

what i would like is some other opinions about fixing one or two medical issues to compare with what my doctor said.

im not convinced he's being entirely honest

i think he's trying to save money

skullpatrol

go to a different specialist

Jez

1:24 PM

i'm in the UK. we don't really have that option.

Matt Эллен

yes we do.

Jez

we have 1 GP, and it's a postcode lottery - it has to be a GP near you. you can't just pick any one.

Matt Эллен

you can get refered to other doctors

skullpatrol

where there is a will there is a way

Jez

IF your GP refers you.

Matt Эллен

1:25 PM

sure

Jez

but mine's rather dismissive

skullpatrol

give him cash

Matt Эллен

but you can actually make an appointment with one of the other doctors at your practicce without asking your GP

just ask at reception

Jez

i suspect that surgery will all be roughly the same; "don't suggest any expensive procedures"

you know what a stickler for "efficiency" the NHS is now

skullpatrol

go to a different country

Jez

1:27 PM

hardly an option

Matt Эллен

anyway, this has got rather off the point of why we should sign up to health.se.

Jez

well it might be useful for you too

Matt Эллен

I'd have to have questions or answers.

Jez

you might come up with some

that health proposal has been around for years. it deserves a chance

Matt Эллен

maybe. but I'd ask a trusted source before I'd ask programmers

Jez

1:29 PM

they're not all programmers

and you might not be satisfied with that trusted source's response

skullpatrol

ask medica

Jez

medica? a trade fair?

Andrew Leach

No, medica the user here.

Jez

@medica test

not seeing that user

Andrew Leach

medica, United States

33.2k 8 59 113

Jez

1:34 PM

what's thons qualifications?

Andrew Leach

Wut?

Matt Эллен

she (was?) an ER nurse, I think

she's a doc

mmm

That has an M.D.

1:35 PM

and her husband is too

tchrist

MMDD

Jez

the health site will hopefully have a good group of doctors and nurses from different backgrounds who will be able to provide a wider range of insight than one person

skullpatrol

you gotta get the ball rolling some how

Jez

also, you'll probably be able to ask questions anonymously on the Health site. everywhere else on here is public

Matt Эллен

oh, OK. my mistake. she's a doctor

tchrist

1:37 PM

@snailboat Probably because I don’t take the position that words used in literature should be ignored.

Jez

shame. medica isn't on area 51

maybe she can be persuaded to commit to Health

skullpatrol

Matt Эллен

the bigger the ensuing avalanche?

skullpatrol

absolutely^

KitFox

2:09 PM

Good morning.

Matt Эллен

Hello

skullpatrol

Hi

Jez

wow, havent seen kit for a while

talking of foxes... youtu.be/h8758UW_RjM?t=1m40s

Anastasiya-Romanova 秀

4:57 PM

Hello Mr. @terdon. Are you busy now? If not, may I ask you something about English?

terdon

Sure, try me.

Anastasiya-Romanova 秀

@terdon Is this sentence grammatically correct? "I would greatly appreciate it if you kindly vote my nomination"

What would be the proper way to express that sentence as a request at the very beginning statement?

terdon

No, you need a for at least. How about something like this:

I would greatly appreciate it if you would support my nomination"

Or

I would greatly appreciate it if you would vote for me.

You don't really vote for nominations, you vote for people.

Also, greatly appreciate is already polite enough, you don't need to add kindly.

It might depend on context though. What is this for @Anastasiya-Romanova秀?

Anastasiya-Romanova 秀

So is 'support' in this sentence: "I would greatly appreciate it if you would support my nomination" means I am asking them to vote for me?

@terdon I'm running for a moderator in Math SE election

So I need some proper English statements for my nomination

terdon

@Anastasiya-Romanova秀 I saw your nomination. Here's an edited version. I tried to keep your tone but have corrected most of the obvious grammatical issues. I also made some non-grammatical changes but (obviously) feel free to ignore them:

> I have been around here since 9 months ago, I have learned and know how the system here works. Although my contribution on Math SE is very small compared to the prominent users here, considering my age and the little time I've been here, I think it is not negligible. I have enough experience because I have participated in many similar sites like Math SE (you may refer to my profile page for the details).

> I have learned so much from this site and I think it is about time for me to give back. While Mr. Martin Sleziak has said that I can still contribute to the growth of this community, i…

Anastasiya-Romanova 秀

5:13 PM

@terdon Oh thank you very much. I will use this in my nomination.

terdon

You're welcome.

Anastasiya-Romanova 秀

Is my English very bad?

terdon

@Anastasiya-Romanova秀 Not at all!

It's quite good actually, just not 100% native.

Which is normal of course.

Anastasiya-Romanova 秀

@terdon Thank you, if you grade my English ability from 0-10, what would be my grade?

terdon

I have no idea. :)

I would have to hear/read a lot more to have an opinion. I also don't really know how I would grade anyone's English on a scale like that.

Anastasiya-Romanova 秀

5:21 PM

Ah, OK. I'll chat here more often to improve my English.

@terdon Are you native speaker?

If I may know

terdon

@Anastasiya-Romanova秀 Yes, I am.

Anastasiya-Romanova 秀

@terdon You're very lucky you were born as a native so you don't have to learn English so hard like I do right now

terdon

@Anastasiya-Romanova秀 Ha! Don't worry, I've learned other languages the hard way, just like everyone else :)

But yes, being born a native English speaker is very useful today.

Anastasiya-Romanova 秀

@terdon I don't understand, why must we use English to communicate each other globally? I've never understood why English can be an international language.

terdon

5:41 PM

@Anastasiya-Romanova秀 Many different reasons:

1) Economic/Cultural dominance of the USA in the Western world.

2) The simplicity of English. It is a language with no gender, almost no tenses, very little change when conjugating verbs (I go, you go, he goes, we go, you go, they go).

It is an extremely easy language to speak badly. It is a very hard language to speak well but the 1st level (where is the train station? Can I have a beer?) is very simple.

There has always been a common language. It has always been necessary. At different times, this has been Greek, Latin, French, German and now English.

In Europe anyway. Obviously, different languages were dominant in other parts of the world.

18

Q: Why did English become a universal language and when?

As we all know, English is the universal communication medium. Now we know how powerful it is to convey our thoughts. When did it become a common language? Why did they opt for this language?

history

Anastasiya-Romanova 秀

But English does have tenses and tenses in English makes me headache when I learn it at school

Thanks for the link, I'll read it

terdon

76

Q: How many tenses are there in English?

Do we have 16 tenses in English? With future present past future in the past in these forms simple continuous perfect perfect continuous Can we manipulate these together to create English tenses? For example, "present perfect" or "future perfect continuous"?

verbs tenses modal-verbs mood aspect

Anastasiya-Romanova 秀

6:04 PM

OK Mr. @terdon, I have to leave this chat room right now. Thank you very much for your help. I really really appreciate it. Bye & Cya... :)

I won't leave this room until you reply my chat :)

Mitch

What? Harry Potter dies? sigh goddamn you. — Mitch 21 secs ago

Andrew Leach

Yes. That question could be rewritten as a general case rather than specifics.

Mitch

@AndrewLeach What? Holy crap... other people die?

stops reading all fiction

Wait...what happens in real life?

Andrew Leach

You'll need to stop reading non-fiction, too.

Mitch

Also, reality.

Andrew Leach

6:14 PM

Ah. People don't resurrect themselves.

Except when they do.

Mitch

Neat trick if you can swing it.

I'll let others try it out first.

@Anastasiya-Romanova秀 What's your native language, Russian? You grew up with that but I've heard tenses in Russian are way more complicated...worse than Latin. Maybe not the tenses themselves but the forms (all the different endings).

Anastasiya-Romanova 秀

Mr. @Mitch I'm sorry, it's classified but it's not Russian

Mitch

6:38 PM

@Anastasiya-Romanova秀 I was going from your name. Yes, if you speak Mandarin or some other East Asian language, all the tenses and forms that you have to remember in the European languages will be a pain. Actually, English is a lot easier than those other languages (like French or Russian).

Anastasiya-Romanova 秀

@Mitch Ya, you turn out to be correct that English is somewhat easier than other languages

terdon

6:55 PM

@Anastasiya-Romanova秀 Oh sorry, I hadn't seen your message. You're very welcome.

Anastasiya-Romanova 秀

OK then, bye bye... :)