English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

6:02 PM

Fine, fine. And I knew it anyway so I'm happy. If it makes you feel any better, it was my first thought upon reading the question as well. So, you may be unoriginal but at least you are in good company :P

Robusto

@terdon How can I be unoriginal if I used the term first? It doesn't count just to think of something. You have to put it into practice somehow. No country I know of awards patents for unspoken thoughts.

Well, maybe North Korea. If the thoughts are Dear Leader's.

terdon

@Robusto Tsk, how very small minded of you. Obviously, I got the inspiration so the inspiron particle was grounded through me. You never would have thought of it alone.

Robusto

Hmm . . . consults notes about inspiron particles

I didn't study those particles in my AP Physics class. So you may be right, I can't say.

BTW, I'll add that knackered is such a terrific term I wish America would adopt it wholesale. — Robusto 18 secs ago

Matt Эллен

@Robusto yes

a knackers yard is where old horses go

Ice Boy

and scotland yard is where scots go? :D

Mitch

6:18 PM

@Robusto dammit

patent for patenting thoughts not even considered

terdon

And wonderful jokes to be made about its being related to knickers.

I wonder if it is actually.

Robusto

I doubt it. Knickers is probably from knickerbockers.

Mitch

@terdon dead animal parts and underwear? Very awkward jokes.

terdon

@Robusto It is indeed. And that, in turn is from a Scandinavian last name apparently.

Robusto

And it is: "short, loose-fitting undergarment," now usually for women but not originally so, 1866, shortening of knickerbockers (1859), said to be so called for their resemblance to the trousers of old-time Dutchmen in Cruikshank's illustrations for Washington Irving's "History of New York" Etymonline.com

terdon

6:21 PM

> knacker (v.) Look up knacker at Dictionary.com

> usually in past tense, knackered, "to kill, castrate" (1855), but most often used in weakened sense of "to tire out" (1883); apparently from knacker (n.) "worn-out or useless horse," 1812, of unknown origin; possibly from a dialectal survival of a Scandinavian word represented by Old Norse hnakkur "saddle," hnakki "back of the neck," and thus possibly related to neck (n.).

To kill, castrate!?

Robusto

I think I'd rather be dead than castrated. But others may feel differently.

Mitch

I'd rather be tired than dead.

Knacker

A knacker is a person in the trade of rendering animals that have died on farms or are unfit for human consumption, such as horses that can no longer work. This leads to the slang expression "knackered" meaning very tired, or "ready for the knacker's yard", where old horses are slaughtered and the by-products are sent for rendering. A knacker's yard or knackery is different from a slaughterhouse, where animals are slaughtered for human consumption. In most countries Knackery premises are regulated by law. A horse carcass, rendered, had many uses. In the U.S., the meat could end up in the food at...

Robusto

I'm already tired.

terdon

I'd most certainly rather be castrated than dead. Rather not be either of course, but one can't always choose.

Jasper Loy

I rather not be born at all than be born in the sick place I am now.

Mitch

6:23 PM

@Robusto Step 1: Completed.

Robusto

That's why we go over this stuff.

Mitch

So you know the plan.

Robusto

Shhh. Loose links slip shits.

Mitch

@JasperLoy You really need to see the 'meaning of life' in full. Youtube it.

@Robusto Uh oh runs off to clean up

Jasper Loy

@Mitch Will it help me?

Mitch

6:26 PM

I don't know, but it's funny. and people die and stuff.

terdon

@Mitch Only if they were stupid enough to eat the Salmon Mousse!

Mitch

yesterday, by Mitch

"but I didn't have the mousse"

Ice Boy

@Mitch nice try at trolling ;-)

Mitch

@IceBoy :D

Are you UKian?

Ice Boy

I am archian

Mitch

6:29 PM

nice.

I don't know what that is but nice anyway.

terdon

@Mitch :)

Ice Boy

I have a PhD in trollology.

Mitch

Anyway, I applied for a job in the UK (I'm USian) and was surprised at one question on the form. In the US we're very used to the 'race' question: Are you 1) Asian/Pacific Islander 2)Hispanic 3) Black 4) Black and Hispanic (I'm not sure if that's really a question) 5) White (is there a 6) other? I don't know.

terdon

@IceBoy You mean this guy?

Mitch

All to make sure that people are discriminated against for other reasons.

So on the UK application I was surprised with the question: Do you have one or more parents who are 1) Irish 2) Welsh 3) Scots ( 4- Other? Manx? No qn about South Asian or Carribean or Australian).

terdon

6:35 PM

@Mitch Um, I think everyone has one or more parents who are "Other".

They didn't ask for "English"? Good thing Jez is not here.

Mitch

@terdon I know. Parents are so weird.

@terdon Maybe they asked for that, I can't remember.

terdon

I'm guessing that's a special form for their overseas employees. Perhaps to know whether you'd find it easy to get a visa.

Mitch

But I was shocked because... well... all those ethnicities here are pretty much indistinguishable, also, unless you just arrived last year, totally mixed in.

@terdon I had a feeling it was the usual application.

terdon

@Mitch Um, no, not quite. Not in the UK anyway.

Mitch

@terdon Well, that's what I learned. In the US, saying you're Irish is about as meaningful as saying you like a certain brand of toothpaste.

(I know I know, it depends on which brand)

Ice Boy

6:46 PM

This is like reverse-engineering :D

The art of reversing someone's attempt to troll you. Similar to reverse-psychology, only trolling.

terdon

Woah! I haven't actually seen the video, just going by the description.

Ice Boy

this is starting to sound like a sub-cult

terdon

Ugh, that video is horrible. Sorry all.

Robusto

You should be.

Ice Boy

remove please

Robusto

7:00 PM

@terdon Want me to flush it?

to the trash

@Robusto Done

Sweet.

thank you :-)

Wow, Princess Diana ranks above Darwin, Shakespeare, and Newton (!) in the BBC's 100 Greatest Britons list!

I wonder what branch of mathematics Diana created, or what scientific discovery she made, or what her plays were like. We may never know.

terdon

7:14 PM

@Robusto Please tell me they compiled that by popular vote. Please.

Phew.

> The programme was based on a television poll conducted to determine whom the United Kingdom public considered the greatest British people in history.

OK, based on the opinions of television viewers. That makes sense.

Robusto

Yeah. Most of them probably never even heard of Newton.

tchrist

Nor of Patrikius.

Robusto

I would put @MattЭллен far above Diana on that list. Which either shows you in what high esteem I hold him or what low esteem I hold her. You be the judge.

Matt Эллен

awww, thanks!

terdon

What makes her great anyway? Did she actually achieve anything other than being an affable enough person who died young?

Robusto

7:16 PM

@MattЭллен She was cuter than you, though. But only just.

Matt Эллен

charity work, I think

@Robusto yeah, I'll give her that

Robusto

No awards for cuteness, though.

tchrist

Great? What is great? Delusions of grandeur, visions of splendour. . . .

Robusto

If I were making the list it would have #1: Newton, #2: Shakespeare, #3: Darwin. All the rest are #4 or lower.

terdon

I might switch 2 with 3 but yeah, with you on that one.

Depends on if you measure by their effect on the Anglo-Saxon world or the world at large.

Robusto

7:20 PM

I think Shakespeare had an effect on the world at large. He was sui generis, in fact.

terdon

Umm, one of the people on the list was Boudicca. That takes the definition of British to a whole new level.

Robusto

Still is.

terdon

@Robusto Of course he did, but less so than Darwin I'd say.

Robusto

Meh, you have to give a nod to the liberal arts crowd.

Can't make everything about science.

terdon

@Robusto Indeed, but by their very nature, scientific and philosophical breakthroughs end up affecting more people than literary genius.

Robusto

7:22 PM

You would have to do a scientific study to prove your contention.

Ice Boy

@tchrist Patricius ~~Patrikius~~

terdon

They have the potential to change how we see the world and our place in it. Shakespeare was a wordsmith, a great and noble calling, but one that has less effect on the world at large.

Robusto

@terdon I have to disagree. Calling Shakespeare a "wordsmith" is somewhat like calling Newton a "math geek." It denigrates the man's stature.

terdon

@Robusto Oh, my bad. It is very high praise in my lexicon. Call him a poet, a literary genius, whatever you like.

Ice Boy

On his death bed, he said his greatest accomplishment was to die a virgin

Robusto

7:25 PM

That's easier for some than others.

terdon

It's just that literature can change our world only when it is used to provide novel ideas. Shakespeare never did that, I think. Hence, his effect on the world would be less than that of the great philosophers.

Jasper Loy

@IceBoy Is he gay?

Ice Boy

no

terdon

@JasperLoy Well, he's dead, so probably not that jolly anymore.

Robusto

@terdon Billions more people know of Shakespeare than do of, say, Hegel or Kirkegaard.

Ice Boy

7:26 PM

@JasperLoy celibate

Jasper Loy

@IceBoy I am still a virgin, after 33 years.

terdon

@Robusto Of course, but who has changed the world more by their existence?

@IceBoy I find that hard to believe:

> At 18, he married the 26-year-old Anne Hathaway, who was pregnant. Susanna, the first of their three children, was born six months later on 26 May 1583.

Robusto

@terdon I would put my money on Shakespeare.

Never underestimate the effect of language upon the human spirit.

Ice Boy

@JasperLoy perhaps you too may choose celibacy

terdon

@Robusto Really? I don't mean personally. For example, John Fowles or Steinbeck have affected me more than Hegel but I don't think the world would have been a very different place if neither had lived or written.

Jasper Loy

7:28 PM

@Robusto I put my money in the bank.

terdon

@Robusto I would never! Still, aren't you being kind of Anglo-centric?

Robusto

Some are born celibate, some acquire celibacy, and some have celibacy thrust upon them.

@terdon This was a list of Britons, remember?

terdon

@Robusto OK, scratch that point then.

Wait, no, that does not mean that we judge their influence as influence on Britons only.

So the point still stands. His huge effect on the English language is still less than the effect Darwin had on the entire world.

Robusto

4 mins ago, by Robusto

@terdon Billions more people know of Shakespeare than do of, say, Hegel or Kirkegaard.

I stand by my assertion.

terdon

@Robusto We were talking about Darwin.

Also, billions more people know of Shakira, damned if I'll take that as a measure of her importance.

Robusto

7:31 PM

I think we are discussing semantics, and what fame means, when we should be talking about what we can agree on in common.

Ice Boy

Newton never married. The French writer and philosopher Voltaire, who was in London at the time of Newton's funeral, said that he "was never sensible to any passion, was not subject to the common frailties of mankind, nor had any commerce with women—

terdon

@Robusto Ah, not fame at all! The list was of important people, which I interpret as those whose footprint on the world has been the greatest.

Ice Boy

—a circumstance which was assured me by the physician and surgeon who attended him in his last moments".[83] The widespread belief that he died a virgin has been commented on by writers such as mathematician Charles Hutton,[84] economist John Maynard Keynes,[85] and physicist Carl Sagan.[86]

terdon

@IceBoy I thought you meant Shakespeare.

Robusto

@terdon Well, more people have heard of Shakespeare than probably any other Briton.

Ice Boy

7:33 PM

@terdon oh, sorry

terdon

That I doubt. I'm pretty sure that Darwin, though depressingly perhaps not Newton, is more famous.

Robusto

@terdon books.google.com/ngrams/…

terdon

@Robusto Well, yes, again, you're searching an English corpus.

Robusto

terdon

The question is which one is more famous/has been more influential world wide.

Jasper Loy

7:36 PM

I would say Einstein is possibly the most famous.

Ice Boy

why are we restricted to the UK?

Robusto

Shakespeare wins in German, French, Spanish, and Italian, too. Newton wins in Russian.

terdon

@Robusto And Darwin is below Shakespeare in all the ones I tested. Damn.

I still think you're wrong, I'm just running out of evidence.

Robusto

Hehe. ^_^

terdon

Grrr

Ice Boy

7:43 PM

books.google.com/ngrams/…

Matt Эллен

@JasperLoy You could edit your meta question to ask about mod inactivity in general, rather than focussing on Sim (i.e. remove all reference to a particular person) and it would probably be a good question.

Jasper Loy

@MattЭллен I see. I was just lacking some drama.

terdon

Is God the most frequent word in the NGram corpus? None of the obvious contenders I tried come close.

Ice Boy

yeah, me too :(

terdon

Brilliant, yes loses but no wins!

books.google.com/ngrams/…

Matt Эллен

7:49 PM

@terdon books.google.com/ngrams/…

terdon

That's quite interesting actually, you can see the recent increase of religious belief I've been hearing about. Water was above God until very recently.

@MattЭллен Yes, I was avoiding prepositions.

Matt Эллен

@terdon books.google.com/ngrams/…

terdon

@MattЭллен Damn. OK, OK, I still think that's cheating. Find me a noun :)

Ice Boy

books.google.com/ngrams/…

terdon

@IceBoy A rainbow!

Ice Boy

7:54 PM

:D

Matt Эллен

@terdon I think you're cheating! "no is the most popular word (except for prepositions, oh and modal verbs, oh and...)"

terdon

s/word/noun/

But yes, indeed, my bad.

Matt Эллен

:D

Ice Boy

i am surprised how high "of" is

1 min ago, by Ice Boy

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=no%2Cthe%2Ca%2Cof%2Cat%2Cis%2C+to%‌2C+be&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B‌%2Cno%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cthe%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Ca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cof%3B%2Cc0%3‌B.t1%3B%2Cat%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cis%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cto%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cbe%3B‌%2Cc0

terdon

@IceBoy Probably misspellings of fuck off.

Ice Boy

7:58 PM

pehaps

Matt Эллен

'height' is more popular than 'yes'

as is head

terdon

@MattЭллен Well, that I can understand.

rimshot

Matt Эллен

no_NOUN is way less popular than head_NOUN

@terdon harhar :D

terdon

@MattЭллен What does that do? Does it look for cases where no is a noun or ones where it is followed by one?

Matt Эллен

@terdon is a noun. there is no space between no and _NOUN

also, follow by one would be no _NOUN_

terdon

8:02 PM

Ah, right. Cool.

When is no a noun? I won't take no as an answer?

Matt Эллен

I imagine no _NOUN_ would be far more popular than head _NOUN_

@terdon sounds about right. ODO has "He was unable to change his yes to a no"

Ice Boy

"The" is so dominant?

Matt Эллен

yes

not sure if it's the most popular, certainly in the top ten!

Ice Boy

I thought "OK" was suppose to be up there?

I guess that is in speech

Matt Эллен

@IceBoy it's almost as popular as yes

Ice Boy

8:05 PM

hmm..

terdon

books.google.com/ngrams/…

Ice Boy

books.google.com/ngrams/…

terdon

Yeah, I was playing with the word order

That one is interesting though. Note how the question didn't even appear in print in the 19th century.

Ice Boy

and disappeared five times

Stack Exchange

8:28 PM

Limerick Machine: There were a couple on a date Who had an unfortunate fate Their lives had been cursed To be at th…

posted on October 28, 2014 by sgdi

There were a couple on a date Who had an unfortunate fate Their lives had been cursed To be at their worst Whenever they found the right mate

Cerberus

9:11 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Sooo why did people vote for him?

Jasper Loy

I am very sad now. It seems that the current Maria will not work out after all.

Cerberus

Aww.

But there are plenty of Mariae in the sea. You will catch another one!

Jasper Loy

@Cerberus I hope so. Thanks. =)

Mitch

@Cerberus Scaled, filleted, and roasted. The fins are nice and crunchy.

Jasper Loy

9:28 PM

@Mitch I thought you would say something to console me.

Cerberus

@JasperLoy I know it!

But, again, I don't think you should be looking on SE.

Go get a smart phone and install Tinder.

Jasper Loy

LOL.

Cerberus

It's fun! Everybody's doing it!

Jasper Loy

I remember I was also very sad a few years ago with regard to another Maria.

Cerberus

From SE?

Jasper Loy

9:34 PM

Yes.

Cerberus

OK that one.

Heed my advice!

Jasper Loy

You are the expert. After all, you found Mario!

Cerberus

I am far from an expert.

But perhaps I have a little bit more experience.

Mitch

@JasperLoy For a woman, the way to a man's heart is through his stomach.

Jasper Loy

Sometimes, I feel that I may never get well.

I hope I can get well in about a year's time.

Cerberus

9:40 PM

You are already better than six months ago!

Jasper Loy

Thanks. You are nice. Too bad I am not gay.

Cerberus

Part of my advice is: do not focus on what is unattainable.

Jasper Loy

@Cerberus What are you referring to now, Maria or Mental?

Cerberus

Mental?

Jasper Loy

I mean, my mental illness.

Cerberus

9:46 PM

No, that is fine.

Do not flirt with or yearn for people that are out of your reach.

Mitch

I just looked up "desire is the cause of all suffering"... and this came up:

Four Noble Truths

The Four Noble Truths (Sanskrit: catvāri āryasatyāni; Pali: cattāri ariyasaccāni) are one of the forms in the Nikayas to express what are considered in Buddhism to be the fundamental truths of the recognition of craving and its cessation, and the way which leads to the cessation of this craving. They are called: The truth of dukkha The truth of the arising or origin of dukkha The truth of the cessation of dukkha The truth of the path leading to the cessation of dukkha They have a symbolic and a propositional function in the Suttas, representing both the enlightenment experience of the Buddha, and...

Jasper Loy

@Mitch This is the pillar of all Buddhism.

Mitch

...and it doesn't mention that sentence at all.

Goddam it I want my money back.

Jasper Loy

@Mitch Suffering is the cause of all desire.

Mitch

It seems to be a paraphrase of #2.

@JasperLoy I know right!

I mean a little desire isn't so bad, right?

Jasper Loy