English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2014-10-27 (page 1 of 2)

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12:11 AM

Please approve my edit here english.stackexchange.com/questions/204610/…

Now I only need 115 points to reach 2000. Maybe I can do it by Oct.

Only 90 points left now, very exciting...

12:57 AM

I am a little bored, so I will now raise a meta post to create some drama.

0

Q: What happened to our moderator simchona?

What happened to our moderator simchona? According to her profile, she has not logged in since 11 May 2014. I hope she is fine. Is there a rule that moderators lose their status after 6 months of inactivity? If so, someone had better inform her as 6 months is almost up!

discussion moderators

This chat is dead.

3 hours later…

3:42 AM

@tchrist Yes, that is of course delusional!

How hard is it to come up with an example like "the ball is red"?

4:15 AM

@SrJoven I do not suggest feeding the troll, but the justification of why his Niobe question falls under the “proofreading” rubric is given in some detail midway through this answer: it’s but a boolean question of the “Is this right?” ilk about one isolated piece of text whose answer will be of no lasting use or relevance to future visitors to the site. Of course, @Mitch gave the real answer here.

It was 80 again today. Last night I had to sleep with the ceiling fan on to cool the room down, and I’ll have to do the same tonight, which is why I am up again so late: can’t sleep in a warm room. They say cooler weather is coming though, and it might drop below 40 late tomorrow night for a bit.

Wow, strange weather.

It's 12 degrees here.

user116848

You guys are lucky.

user116848

It is 26 degrees here (Celsius)

4:30 AM

@Arrowfar I just said that, basically. I’m using round numbers when I say 80.

@Cerberus Yes, record-setting.

user image

And yesterday was warmer than today.

user image

I don’t know what happened to the data from 2–4 weeks ago, sorry.

@Arrowfar In the morning? That is hot...

@tchrist I am looking at Weather Spark now.

At your historical temperatures and mine.

Yours are more extreme.

user116848

@Cerberus Yep. It is morning here :-) And hot.

San Francisco's do indeed look more moderate.

@Arrowfar But you're used to it! Right?

Part of me thinks the graph on the left should also go not from 10 to 90 but rather from 0 to 100 like the one on the right. But then we would have to need that extra 20 degrees on the edges, and I’d just as soon not if I had my druthers.

user116848

@Cerberus Yeah, we are :)

4:38 AM

Good.

@Cerberus You have the sea, which moderates you. I have altitude, whose dryness causes more extreme day–night swings because there is no humidity to provide thermal latency.

Notice the blue dew-point graph is miles away from the orange temperature one.

Uhuh.

How close those are, or how far, is a fair way to judge comfort.

But it seems San Francisco doesn't get much warmer in summer than here, and yet it stays much warmer in winter. That is good.

Planning on moving?

It is cold in San Francisco in the summer.

But just cross to Berkeley a few miles away and it is fine. Go further inland and it is too hot. The microclimate effect is profound.

4:43 AM

@tchrist Not really! It is about the same as here, if I count the number of days above 30.

@tchrist Hmm it doesn't have a weather station in Berkeley.

It has the aeroport of Oakland, which is too hot.

And Concors is far too hot.

@Cerberus That’s not why it’s cold. It has cold mornings, cold nights, and windy days.

Well, I don't mind those.

You also cannot understand that 85 is just fine in 20% or lower humidity, and that 95 is remarkably not-unpleasant at 5% or lower humidity.

I don't like temperatures over 26, and I don't like temperatures under 0 at any time. The time of day doesn't matter.

You have to let your body breathe.

4:48 AM

I have been to dry places, like Crete.

No, you don’t like the effect they have on your body.

It was still torture for me.

There is nothing wrong with them if the air is dry.

And I was wearing shorts and all that.

Then there is nothing wrong with torture, for you...

What was the humidity?

4:49 AM

Crete is very dry.

Low humidity.

I’ll take a number.

A pair of them, preferably.

Otherwise, no further comment is possible.

Your idea of low humidity is compared to living below sea level right next to the sea. That says nothing.

This very strongly suggests that you are seriously exaggerating.

That is as humid as pea soup. It is literally 10x the humidity figures I’m talking about. You have no idea.

Of course at 50–60% humidity you would be uncomfortable at 84 degrees. I would be uncomfortable at 74 degrees at that sort of drippiness.

Oakland is a bit warmer than Berkeley. The Bay Area microclimates are quite complex and localized.

I am looking at the data from the summer of 2001, and it says around 50%.

You’re right: that is torture.

It is alien to me.

I hate it.

When we had >70 degrees these past few days, let alone >80, we always had humidities in the teens.

Florence seems to be around 40% in the afternoon in summer.

You. Just. Can. Not. Imagine.

Those are all unpleasant.

4:56 AM

But what matters far more is the sun.

Not really.

Humidity is all the matters.

When I was in Volterra, in Tuscany, it was 43 degrees in the shade.

In the sun, it was 68 degrees.

What do you call the "subjective temperature", the way it "feels"? Weather forecasts have those temperatures here.

I should say the sun adds maybe 8 degrees?

How much does a difference in humidity between 20 and 80 per cent add, would you say?

I suppose the altitude does in a way, since the radiant head of the sun actually is much greater at greater altitudes. At my elevation, you don’t need a jacket in the sun until it drops below perhaps 65. At 10 kf, it becomes 60, and at 14kf, more like 55.

Wind detracts from it.

@Cerberus How far is it between heaven and hell?

5:00 AM

@tchrist Here, you wouldn't need a jacket at even lower temperatures if the sun is medium-high in the sky. Say, 15 degrees. And you're sitting on a terrace, not even moving about.

In general, the sun counts for +10 to +20 degrees here depending how high you are.

@tchrist That is similar to my suggestion.

By wintertime, people will ditch their jackets at 50.

On on mid-day.

But they move around.

It is very common to see people wearing shorts here and sweaters or jackets at the same time.

But honest, the difference between 10% and 50% humidity is virtually impossible to express in mere numbers of heat index.

5:02 AM

But why?

It should be possible?

Oh, they give numbers.

Well, what numbers do they give?

Our heat index is always lower than our air temperature.

Yours is always higher.

So the difference is one of sign.

Low humidity subtracts from the heat index, high humidity like 40–50% adds to it significantly.

I am talking about when it matters, so on a hot day, say 30 degrees, in the afternoon.

Yes, and there is nothing whatsoever unpleasant about 86 degrees when you have a humidity that is under 20, maybe under 10, because it drags down the apparent temperature to much less than that.

You do not feel hot.

5:04 AM

I need numbers!

Because your body is finally working right again.

No, you need experience.

Sorry.

Not sure I would want to experience your cold winters...

I remember it being -21 once here.

That was Fahrenheit.

-17 by the time I had to bike to school, which is about 12km.

No, I meant here temperature.

Here is the Rule: If the sun is on you, you will not be cold. If the sun is not on you, you will not be warm. The season is immaterial at this altitude.

Because the rule holds in winter as well.

5:07 AM

I'd prefer temperatures to stay above freezing by several degrees.

Or summer.

Remember the sun counts for +15.

There is cold and cold.

And it was still dark when I left for school.

It can be 30 degrees but the sun on you makes it feel like 45.

Dark is cold. Of course.

Or around dawn.

There are like 3 days in July when this is not true.

Dawn is the coldest time of the day, or the first half hour.

5:08 AM

But at +10, biking to school in the dark was perfectly fine, not cold at all.

Honest, until you have experienced this, you simply cannot compare it with anything that you have, because the conditions are too different. Living at 5-10 kf makes a huge difference in how the sun behaves; so does living at what you would consider arid humidities, not "low". You think 50% is low. It isn’t. It’s icky.

Keep the humidity below 20%, keep above a mile in altitude, and keep the sun on your face. All will be well.

I can take any combination of temperatures 70-100 and combine those with a humidity percentage that when added together will not exceed 100, and you will always be comfortable. T+H < 100 == ok.

That is how it works here.

It may not work that way other places, particularly low ones.

So 70 and 30, 80 and 20, 90 and 10, 100 and 0. All good.

Because, you see, they don’t feel as different as you would think. Your body reacts more similarly than you imagine.

This is outside.

Nobody is talking about being trapped inside a box with dead air smothering you.

I took a longish walk today. Didn’t bring water. Stupid. By the time I got back home, my pee was too dark yellow.

And I was dizzy.

The price of low humidity and sun is that it sucks the water out of you WITHOUT YOU NOTICING.

It was a nice day so I went further than planned/normal.

I was about a quart low.

Maybe a bit more.

But you cannot ever assimilate more than a quart an hour of input, even though in very extreme conditions, you can easily exceed that in output.

That's why you have to keep nursing it afterwards.

You can’t just drink as much as you lost all at once and have it stick.

If you ever did bike racing, you must know this.

Horses, water, think.

@tchrist But I am trapped in a box most of the day.

I wish you could have this experience. I explained it at length to a different European who also lived at the sea, much warmer than you, and he never believed a word I told him. Then he came here. And was amazed that it had all been true. You really do have to experience it to believe it.

@Cerberus That’s what AC is for.

Or central heating.

Had I AC, I would care less.

I refuse to engage the AC when it nearly winter. Ridiculous.

5:21 AM

Some trains and some other buildings I enter have AC, but my house and my workplace do not. Nor do the trams.

But I stay up too late because of this.

In the last few days. It’s all over now. The front will sweep through tonight and we’ll lose 30–40 degrees all at once.

So whenever I say anything about temperatures, imagine my sitting in a greenhouse.

I only like greenhouses in the depths of midwinter.

Yeah.

I can’t imagine sitting. I can imagine you though.

5:23 AM

So I cannot bear high temperatures.

Sitting is not difficult.

Oh, I can imagine you sitting just fine.

It’s your sitting which is inaccessible to me.

Good.

Umm...

Some kind of pun?

"imagine my sitting" > "imagine me sitting"

Those mean the same.

> incubation (of birds)

Nobody but nobody ever says "imagine my verbing" for "imagine me verbing".

One is unnatural.

Imagine me singing at the opera.

Imagine me walking up stairs.

Imagine me teasing you incessantly.

5:25 AM

google.com/…

You only use that on others, and never accept it used against you.

Therefore, neither do I.

I know how people actually talk, you see.

And "imagine my verbing" is just dead.

Unless it is something like "imagine my piping when it is 30 below zero: it’s sure to burst".

But not a verb.

People just don’t talk that way any longer.

@tchrist But probably superior.

I think it is because of that particular verb: imagine.

One imagines a person.

There are other cases where it can easily go either way.

In a way, you could treat it as a verb of perception, which does not take a possessive.

This is not one of them, at least not today how people normally speak.

5:28 AM

No offence, but that is not my concern.

I heard him singing in the shower. I saw him swinging from the rope.

Imagine is the same.

Perception is key.

I just know how it works.

But you were going to bed and I need to get some work done before giving sleep another try.

I smelled him sneaking up behind me.

Good night then.

5:30 AM

I slept for 2 hours, from 2.30 to 4.30.

It wouldn’t even make sense to use possessive adjectives in any of those cases.

Sneaking doesn’t smell.

Yes, but those are clear verbs of perception.

Bye.

Imagine is not.

I imagine you think not.

5:31 AM

Now that is with a full clause.

An omitted that.

I can also imagine you sitting there thinking about it.

shrugs

No possessive determiners required nor permitted.

Change of focus.

Imagine the night sky spreading out to the horizon at 360 degrees around you.

You cannot say ~~I imagine him sit there~~.

Which is possible with true verbs of perception.

An a.c.i.

“I think I imagined him sit next to me that night” is a bit stressful.

For imagined that he sat.

5:34 AM

(Which, oddly, is generally not possible in Latin: you would use an accusative cum participio with verbs of perception.)

Again, think of the night-sky example.

It is the same as with people.

@tchrist That sounds borderline wrong to me...

You cannot possibly pretend that you imagine the night sky’s spreading out: that is nonsense.

@Cerberus That was the stressful part. :)

As if someone were trying to bend imagine into the shape of a true verb of perception.

Once you have reconciled with imagining the night sky spreading out to the horizon, all else will be clear.

5:36 AM

> Video eum in atrio sedentem.

Speak English.

> Concipio eum in atrio sedere.

Not English. Therefore, immaterial and all kinds of wicked formal-logic violations that you should be fined for.

Imagine the night.

Imagine the night blanketing you with darkness.

No ’s allowed.

As I said, it is different in Latin.

This is how imagine works.

5:38 AM

Even though there, too, verbs of perception are special in the structure of the argument they take.

Imagining me dreaming and imagining my dreams are quite different. Although I would accept either at this point.

fades

Adieu.

4 hours later…

Matt Эллен

9:14 AM

gaaaaaaad merniiiiin

hiiiii :D

9:30 AM

Hi, 'tapestry' of something means that it resembles a tapestry -- a handwoven fabric with pictorial designs -- in its complex pictorial designs

This means that, If I say "a tapestry of identity-based encryption practical frameworks compared" it means that the treatise is going to talk about some really complex topic?

basically yes, the "practical frame works" are going to be compared

a tapestry of identity-based encryption whose practical frameworks are going to be compared

9:46 AM

Thank you @IceBoy

thanks for asking :-)

2 hours later…

Matt Эллен

12:09 PM

I see LePressentiment has a new user name

Upvote Law Area 51 Proposal

1.1k 2 13

meaning-in-context legal etymology differences verbs meaning grammar

12:50 PM

-1

A: "Ten and several minutes": Any more natural expression?

Actually, there are at least three idiomatic expressions that do the trick: "ten minutes and change": (idiomatic) and some quantity, but less than the increment to the next round number "ten minutes and then some": (idiomatic, colloquial) used to confirm preceding utterance, while impl...

Random downvoter strikes again.

Except that I now know for a fact who it is.

Still unsure if I should call him out on it publicly, or just suspend, or both.

Matt Эллен

a public flogging... it has its advantages

Actually looking through their voting history, it appears it's not personal. They just downvote everyone. Must be the same random downvoter @tchrist and Mari-Lou and other people have been complaining about.

Which of course could be seen as more reasons for suspension, not less.

I'm taking the rest to the mod room I guess.

1:05 PM

I’m always wrong about these things.

But it still feels personal.

1

Q: Disoriented vs. Disorientated

In the U.S., we seemingly prefer the former to the latter. However, I was sitting with my friends when one of them stated that he was "disorientated" while we were playing a video game. My theory, at the time, was that he made the language connection between a "youtube game commentator" and "dis...

31

Q: "Oriented" vs. "orientated"

What are the origins of the word orientated? As far as I know, the correct spelling is oriented and orientated is not an alternative spelling but an error that is in common use. Is it for example more commonly used in a certain country or by a certain people? Is there a reason for people choosi...

etymology american-english differences british-english

-2

Q: regarding “Oriented” vs. “orientated”

I couldn't help but add an additional frame of reference. Though I personally find the utterance of "orientated" to be a failed attempt at the proper word "oriented", the collective commentary is indeed food for though. Commonality of the use of this incorrect word seems to be the explanation (...

0

Q: Is orientate a word? Does it matter where you are when using it?

Is orientate a word and if so how is it different than orient? I found this definition of it says "Generally considered an error in American English." does this mean it is not wrong for British English? I'm not sure if there's a right or wrong answer to this, but is it incorrect to use British E...

word-usage cultural-phrases

Looks like we need a dedicatiated tag.

People will always keep asking the same questions over and over and over again.

Nothing new under the sun, which still lacks 9 minutes ere it cracks my eastern horizon.

0

Q: "Orienting" or "orientating"?

Possible Duplicate: Oriented vs. Orientated Both orienting and orientating seem to be in common use. Is there any difference in meaning or usage? Is orientating just a common misspelling?

verbs differences suffixes

It was already a dupe when Kosmo was still around. That's how much a dupe it is.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1:37 PM

So it's election day in Toronto. Hopefully at the end of the day the citizens of this town won't have given the world something further to laugh about.

Hope was the last great evil released to the world by Pandora.

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 good luck!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist Indeed. Still, it's better than crack-smoking-bullying-racism-homophobia. That's the evil we're stuck with now.

Forgot buffoonery.

crack-smoking-bullying-racist-homophobic-buffoonery

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 well, unlike in the Ukraine, Darth Vader didn't try to run or vote, so you're already quite mediocre and boring.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwigнt woohoo! That's the Canada I love.

1:43 PM

Darth Vader denied vote in Ukraine elections

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

After all, how can we maintain our smug sense of superiority if one of our own is making an ass of himself on the world stage?

Simple. You just let your neighbors in the south do the job.

No matter how much you make ass, they make more ass, so you're totally cool in comparison.

Matt Эллен

@RegDwigнt equal rights for cyborgs!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwigнt That usually works, but as Rob Ford has shown, isn't a foolproof strategy.

@MattЭллен that's the Catch-22. In order to enforce equal rights, you must first get in, and that's only possible when the equal rights are already in place, in which case there's no reason for you to get in to enforce them.

At least Americans get to pretend to be Canadians. But what do you pretend to be as a Russian? A polar bear?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1:49 PM

I don't think I could successfully pass as one of those.

@tchrist I'm convinced, now re: feeding the troll.

Matt Эллен

@RegDwigнt this is where captialism is useful: if you can bribe enough politicians you can get better than equal rights for your chosen minority

2:18 PM

@RegDwigнt But this is the problem inherent in the voting system. If Darth Vader was eligible to win, he should have an equal chance. Put his name in a hat with all the other eligible people and if his name is pulled, he wins.

0

A: two times three

This is actually possible to answer, by looking at how we use both "times two" ("times three", "times four" etc.) as a standalone phrase to multiply whatever comes before it, and "two times" ("three times", "four times" etc.) as a standalone phrase to multiply whatever comes after it. Here are ...

3:23 PM

I need 30 more points to reach 2000.

Matt Эллен

so you're 99% of the way there!

Anonymous

What will you do to celebrate?

I don't know, lol.

I'm 89% of the way to 10k on SO, and I think I'll celebrate by casting all my delete votes on bad questions :P

OK I just deleted an answer, so that's 30.

3:25 PM

@Undo Ha, that's exactly how I celebrated the fact that I can now close vote questions on SO :D

:D

@matt What do you think of this answer? english.stackexchange.com/questions/204787/…

@Undo nobody has that much time. Or delete votes. Or time.

Well, you start off with only five

A drop in the ocean.

3:29 PM

Note that I said cast all my delete votes, not delete vote all the bad questions ;)

That would be impossible

@snailboat I will celebrate by not posting any more, lol.

Matt Эллен

@JasperLoy seems correct

@MattЭллен You know what to do, lol.

Matt Эллен

my vote ratio for this moth is 17 / -45

so I need to down vote 6 more things to make the ratio 1:3

That is too much math for my moth.

I just click on things.

Anonymous

3:33 PM

A moth visited me recently.

I have not talked to Maria for almost a week. She must be very busy...

Whatever I do, some ratio is always there, so might as well not care what it is.

Well, better to have some hope than none.

Anonymous

user image

Matt Эллен

the ratio is now 2:5

Anonymous

3:34 PM

I didn't ask it how much math it was comfortable with, though

Um. You seem to have spilled some keys over your table.

Matt Эллен

@snailboat I get those ones, I think.

This looks more like a roach.

The moths I get visits from are the size of Mothula.

Anonymous

It isn't!

Anonymous

I saw it from multiple angles.

3:35 PM

I'm just saying it's puny.

Anonymous

Are roaches puny?

Anonymous

I thought they were big.

Depends on the roach but that's beside the point, Mothula is bigger no matter what.

Today, I was thinking about life in the Muslim countries. No this, no that, seems pathetic.

Anonymous

I like moths.

Anonymous

3:36 PM

Sometimes when a moth finds its way into my house, I name it Mothra

If Germany is heaven compared to where I am, then where I am is heaven compared to the Muslim countries.

@snailboat Which is the same as Mothula, of course.

0

Q: Plural of "first child"

If multiple people each have a first child, are those children collectively referred to as "first children" or "first childs". The former seems more consistent with the usual plural of child, but the latter also seems plausible, since a given person only has a single first child.

grammatical-number

What's the deal with those questions.

8

Q: What is the plural of 'only child'?

I suppose it would be 'only children' but that does not sound quite right. For example, a schoolteacher might say, "in my class there are seven only children".

grammatical-number

Anonymous

This can't be a coincidence!

32

A: Prove the product of two odd primes + 1 is never prime?

If $p$ and $q$ are primes larger than $2$, then $pq+1$ is even.

One line gets me over 30 votes, lol.

3:39 PM

Matt Эллен

120

A: When is it okay to ship a product with a known bug?

It has to always be OK, because there is no such thing as bugless software.

@JasperLoy one liners are the most popular

@MattЭллен and of course not a single person on that page could see a flaw with that argument.

Today while thinking about this world I saw so many problems with it that I felt I should rule the world again.

Murder is always OK.

I shall do 10 more edits to get 20 more points and then retire, lol.

Matt Эллен

3:44 PM

@RegDwigнt my personality wins through

@MattЭллен it has to be OK if it always does that.

Anonymous

@JasperLoy You'll be able to live off the interest

The rates are infinitesimal these days.

@JasperLoy FFS, how is that even an answer?

The question says "prove that 2+2 = 4", and the answer says "2+2 = 4" and that is all.

May 4 '12 at 11:17, by RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

Proof by repeated assertion.

What if the first children you have are twins? And what if they're both bald but for one hair each and you take them to get a haircut? What do you ask the barber? — Mitch 1 min ago

Anonymous

@RegDwigнt What I say three times is true. (What I say three times is true. What I say three times is true.)

Matt Эллен

3:52 PM

@Mitch lol.

@snailboat What if it's not true?

Matt Эллен

Then it won't be said three times

@MattЭллен oh oh... and they each have some ... (searching for a mass noun) ... some water.

"Can you cut the hairs of the firstborn childs's, the ones with waters?"

@JasperLoy That's the way it is everywhere. Laws, man, they're keeping me down.

@RegDwigнt OK, I edited it a bit to add some detail, lol. Anyway, the math community does not like people to give answers that are too complete, as they believe the asker should be guided towards the solution.

@JasperLoy that doesn't explain why such questions always have half a dozen answers. One hint is not enough?

3:59 PM

@SrJoven Yep, it’s completely classic. I recommend community ostracism over moderator action, at least at this point.

Starve him to death.

@RegDwigнt Welcome to Math SE!

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