English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2014-08-21 (page 1 of 4)

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cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

1:02 AM

@RegDwigнt Visa BUXX?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1:16 AM

@tchrist I was going to chime in on credit-card use but I see @RegDwigнt already made my point for me. As long as I don't carry a balance (and why would I?) I can use my card for free, plus there are tons of side-benefits, like cash back.

Most places here don't give discounts for cash. Of course, any place that does, I'd use cash, if it were available.

But since the cost of the credit-card transactions is (unfairly, I admit) distributed to all customers, I may as well use the card.

The solution is to allow vendors to refuse cards with high fees, and to allow vendors to post cash-discounted prices. Both practices are forbidden by the CC companies.

But using a CC for all purchases is very convenient. And it literally makes me money. I get free money for having that convenience.

1:42 AM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I pay €15 a year for my credit card, but that is all.

I have never been in debt on it, so that may be different.

However, debit cards, which are standard here, are better: they're free, and you won't incur debt.

@RegDwigнt As a student, I got a credit card based on nothing.

I can use it to spend €2500 a month, no questions asked. I rarely use it, but anyway.

2:00 AM

Hi all. Trying to remember a phrase, I think it was from an NPR story, that was a fairly clear indicator of a certain age cutoff. It was something like, if you were younger than 30/40/50, you'd say the phrase "something something of", but if you were older you'd say "something something by". Any ideas?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus We have debit cards here too. The difference is that you can't use them to buy stuff online (well, maybe you can now? but you didn't used to be able to).

@boflynn you're looking for the "something something"?

Interact is a good option, in my opinion.

I can't remember the specifics, the of vs. by might be wrong to.

But I thought it was just the difference of a preposition or a small word that indicated a change in generations.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@boflynn wow. That could be anything!

@skullpatrol Interac? yeah, that's what I mean by debit cards. Are you Canadian?

Yea, I've tried a bunch of horrible google searches but my phrases for it are so vague.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:03 AM

I wish I could help you, but I think we need more information to go on.

What is an NPR story?

My guess is that it was on the "A Way with Words" radio program, waywordradio.org

Searching through their archives now.

Ah ha!

It was "on accident" vs. "by accident"

Link please.

I'll try to find something more substantial, but here's a forum post on it: waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/on-accident-vs-by-accident

Thanks :-)

2:10 AM

That was the piece that reminded me of the phrase, now I'm off to find a better source.

If you don't mind me asking, how would you phrase it and how old are you?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@boflynn "on accident" is how my children say it, because (I imagine) they haven't learned the rule yet, and they are instead generalizing "on purpose"-> "on accident"

33 here, while it was hard to think about how I'd naturally say it, I went with on accident

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@boflynn I'm 36 (geez! already!) and I, and every grown up I know, says "by accident". Also I'm in Canada, if that matters.

I was talking with my mother, when I was trying to explain it to her without saying the phrase, I said "the opposite of on purpose", she switched to "by accident"

Ah, US Florida here.

Now the problem is that I'm overthinking it. Will have to convince the wife to trick me into saying it in a month or so when my guard is down.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

According to ngrams, almost nobody ever writes "on accident"

It just sounds wrong to me.

2:14 AM

Yea, the more I say it the more is sounds wrong, but when I first hit that page I thought "oh yea, the phrase was 'on accident'"

Hrm.

People tend to remember things that sound strange.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The corpus of contemporary American English agrees that nobody uses "on accident"

But hey. preposition choice is somewhat arbitrary. Maybe you're just cutting-edge, linguistically.

Ha, I think I prefer that.

Cheers all

Later

Sing and rejoice!

11

A: What great writers have used coordinating conjunctions at the start of sentences?

Examples from Tolkien’s Legendarium For my own demonstrative examples, I’ve chosen just one “great writer”, so that some measure of frequency of this phenomenon within a single writer’s works can be cleaned. These are all from the twentieth century. Across The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and Th...

I am supremely pissed that a certain someone downvotes like every new posting of mine when the sun comes up in the Indies. But at least the rest of the world thinks he’s a jerk, too.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Young people of small letters do so.

Or little letters.

Or few letters.

BRB

2:26 AM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Right, I can buy almost anything in Holland online with a debit card, and most things elsewhere through Paypal, but occasionally I need a credit card there.

I used to use it in restaurants that didn't accept debit cards, but nowadays there is 0 chance of that happening: it's either debit card or no card at all.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus yeah paypal, where accepted, makes not using a credit-card easier now. But it's a relatively recent thing. I got my first credit-card at 18 specifically so I could order stuff through mail.

Doesn't the system reverse serial down voting on you @tchrist?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, I got my credit card when was around 18 too, also just for buying things in e.g. Canada! Shipping from Canada was relatively cheap, so I bought a lot of books from Canada through ABE Books.

I'm not sure I bought stuff in Holland online in those days.

Would you believe I actually had books shipped here from Australia? It was cheaper than America, let alone <shivers> Europe...

It took maybe 1.5 months by sea from our antipodes.

That's free enterprise for ya :-)

@tchrist Do you say usuary? I say usury. But Wikipaedia also recognises your spelling...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:32 AM

20 mins ago, by Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@boflynn "on accident" is how my children say it, because (I imagine) they haven't learned the rule yet, and they are instead generalizing "on purpose"-> "on accident"

I agree.

On accident sounds like...contamination. Analogy.

@Cerberus does Wikipedia recognize your spelling of Wikipedia?

Wikipedia (/ˌwɪkɨˈpiːdiə/ or /ˌwɪkiˈpiːdiə/ WIK-i-PEE-dee-ə) is a free-access, free content Internet encyclopedia, supported and hosted by the non-profit Wikimedia Foundation. Almost anyone who can access the site can edit almost any of its articles. Wikipedia is the sixth most popular website and constitutes the Internet's largest and most popular general reference work. As of 2014, it has 18 billion page views and nearly 500 million unique visitors each month. Jimmy Wales and Larry Sanger launched Wikipedia on January 15, 2001. Sanger coined its name, a portmanteau of wiki (from the Hawaiian...

Yes.

Is that Latin?

Wikipaedia

No, it is just like encyclopaedia.

2:44 AM

Then don't you think it should be offered as an alternative spelling upfront @Cerberus?

How do you mean offered?

Parenthetically

Along with the difference in pronunciation

Oh, there.

Yes, it ought to be.

@Cerberus Are you the most active chat user on the network?

chat.stackexchange.com/users?tab=active&sort=activity

He certainly is the nicest.

2:53 AM

@GnomeSlice Naturally! I win!

@Cerberus Usury I don’t, but I don’t want to offend the Usurers.

@skullpatrol Haha you are too kind, I am far from the nicest. I have arguments with people...

No you don’t!

@tchrist Hmm now I am confused.

@tchrist I do!!

You're wrong!

You bicker.

2:55 AM

@Cerberus I appear to come in second.

But you have like double mine.

That's impressive.

You quarrel and quibble.

What do you do?

You cross swords and lock horns.

But you do not argue.

That would be beneath you.

@skullpatrol I'm pretty nice.

For that is the domain not of Cerberus but of Tartarus.

2:57 AM

Yes @gnome btw thanks for the tunes

=]

@GnomeSlice Wow! You have progressed fast.

@Cerberus I've been around for uh... three years?

I, on the other hand, am a born fighter :(

I had a six month ban and I still have the most messages in The Bridge by far.

2:59 AM

@tchrist What is the difference?

@GnomeSlice Still, a while ago you were nowhere near 2nd place.

@Cerberus I’m sorry, but complaints is down the hall to your left, and inquiries down the hall to your right.

Haha, have you been checking?

@tchrist That was just a question.

@GnomeSlice No, but still.

I smelt an enquiry.

No you didn't

3:00 AM

You claim I do not argue, but I do cross words.

Swords

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@GnomeSlice You appear to come in 5th, when I look at the board

Cerb, badp, Reg, Kit, GnomeSlice

Oh, it was on the wrong tab.

Yep.

Three people from ELU in the top 4

that's crazy

@skullpatrol Puzzling, isn’t it?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Where’s that from?

user image

3:04 AM

What is that URL?

@GnomeSlice EL&U about language. We simply practice what we preach.

chat.stackexchange.com/users?tab=all&sort=activity

Actually, it’s because all the top users here are polyglots, so we have more words that most people.

That, too.

Although Kit does not often speak non-English.

I'm on mobile @tchrist so I don't know what "it" you are referring to in "puzzling isn't it?"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist chat.stackexchange.com/users

3:07 AM

@skullpatrol "Swords".

@skullpatrol He was doing cross word puzzles.

icic

😏

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:48 AM

phew! finished sorting the lego. for now.

now if only I had 50% more boxes to put it in.

3:59 AM

Impressive.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I have 22 large boxes and 24 small boxes and one huge tub and 4 other boxes and about 20 unopened sets and nowhere to put it all #firstworldlegoproblems

Poor, poor you.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I know

No need to do stupid Twitter thingies, you know. Ever.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Do you know I am seriously contemplating renovations to my house to help solve my problem?

4:02 AM

@Cerberus It was a taipeau.

Hilarious.

@tchrist Qu'est-ce que c'est?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus on twitter it isn't stupid. It's a feature of the system, and in fact required behaviour for certain things to happen.

It is very stupid, Twitter.

Only used by other people btw., just so you know.

I was going for usurious at one point, and fumbled it up into usuary. I say usury.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus twitter is twitter. whatevs. Some people use it to good effect.

4:03 AM

And poor affect.

Politicians use Twitter.

And journalists.

Hardly anybody else.

Hm.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I should appear there too if I did not delete my hundred previous accounts.

@Cerberus The celebrated, perhaps.

@Cerberus One of my Marias use Twitter.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:05 AM

@Cerberus ? millions of people use twitter.

@tchrist Like whom?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Old people. Unhip people.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

For example, John Scalzi, the author, uses twitter, and his recent analytics show that most of his communication with fans is now on twitter rather than his blog.

I use neither Facebook nor Twitter. I am too cool.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus old people don't know what twitter is.

Twitter is used by old people who do so because they think young people use it. They are wrong.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 All politicians use it. All newspapers quote from it.

user116848

4:07 AM

Me too. I don't use fb or twitter. :D

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus So? politicians are using it because young people are on it.

user116848

Howdy

1 min ago, by Cerberus

Twitter is used by old people who do so because they think young people use it. They are wrong.

user116848

facebook is for girls I suppose. But it's just my perception :)

user116848

Everything likey likey

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:08 AM

@Cerberus I submit that you know less about twitter than I do.

@Arrowfar Haha kind of true.

user116848

hah :D

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Submission denied. Try again next month.

I am drinking some coffee. It is a beautiful Thu afternoon here.

Is Thu a Singaporese holiday?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:09 AM

@JasperLoy Thursday? what nonsense is that ! oh wait, it's thursday here too

@Cerberus No, lol.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

when I was in university we called it "Rhursday" because our schedule was labelled MTWRF

Huh?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You should be sleeping.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

M for Monday, T for Tuesday, W for Wednesday, R for Rhursday, F for Friday

4:10 AM

??

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasperLoy enh. maybe soon.

You can't have two days labeled "T"

Is it because R is the first letter in Thursday that Tuesday does not have?

No, there is H.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It's the pigeonhole principle. You are compressing the day names into one letter each. You can't have two pigeons in the same hole, so they had to pick a different hole for Thursday.

By why not H?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:12 AM

Why H?

Because it comes before R?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

H makes no sense whatsoever.

The next sound is "R" in Thursday.

@Arrowfar I thought that was tumblr’s job.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'm sure they didn't look at what letters Tuesday and Thursday had in common.

Who would do that?

4:13 AM

Do you like arguing with drunkards?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Only an insane person

Cross words?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Instead, they picked the consonant alphabetically closest to T, excluding S because that'd be confusing.

Uhh.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I dunno. Can they argue?

4:14 AM

Ridiculous.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Always.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway, the wherefores and whyhows and whatnots aren't important.

What matters is that the Powers That Be chose R

so Rhursday it is.

The next sound is R

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

If they had chosen any other letter we wouldn't have called it Rhursday

user116848

May be because R is pronounced visibly here

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

They could have chosen Z and we'd have challed it Zhursday

4:15 AM

ThuRsday

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'm 99% sure it's not because of the sound

This is a question to be asked on the main site, lol.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

QRSTUVWXYZ <- no day starts with a vowel, so U is out, S is out because Sat Sun, so R. why not R.

I'm 100% sure it is. @mr.shiny

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Also R and T are siblings on the keyboard

4:17 AM

ThuRsday

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Tell you what, @skull. You go to U of T and ask them. I'll wait.

I will ask here :-)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

actually it seems multiple universities use the same MTWRF shorthand.

@mr.shiny don't take me seriously pal

user116848

Oh, C'mon guys why are we debating this :-)

4:20 AM

It is an interesting question.

user116848

Stupid alphabets.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@skullpatrol I don't, not too much. But now I'm curious about how long MTWRF has been around, when it started, who started it

@Arrowfar Letters of the alphabet.

Me too

Again, pretty silly.

We have dinsdag and donderdag, but I have never seen such a stupid abbreviation.

If needed, we do di and do.

4:22 AM

Abbreviations are stupid.

Or just d and d.

Yeah, often they are.

Like you said Hday is acceptable

MTWHF

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It's perfectly logical when you're printing, eg, a course calendar and you need to be brief. CS101 MWF2100 TR1700

I have no idea what that means and why you would need that.

Or X and then you can use it as a variable :D

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:26 AM

@Cerberus CS101 is the course code. MWF2100 means monday, wednesday, friday at 9pm, TR1700 means tuesday, thursday at 5pm.

It appears to be a standard format in universities in the US and Canada, at least.

Like Malcolm X

What is wrong with a slightly longer description?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It's too long.

course calendars are already huge.

do a google search on MWRTF and look at the results. They're all university class times.

Full of rules that nobody follows.

Abbreviations often function like jargon: a tradition everybody knows is very useful, except that you often don't really need it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:29 AM

Of course, now that course calendars are probably digitized, abbreviations aren't as important.

MTWXF

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@skullpatrol yes, they could have used X. But they used R.

They should have picked Th instead.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus That uses more letters.

Why use two letters when you can use one?

Because it is only 2% longer and 100% clearer?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:30 AM

It's not at all any clearer.

Everyone knows what the R means.

I bet new students do not.

Nor foreign students.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I instantly knew what it meant when I saw my timetable.

it was pretty obvious.

I could always abbreviate OED as such.

Or PG.

Then they need to learn.

Or OE.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:31 AM

Context matters, man

Sure.

But it's still weird.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Here is the context. You are given a document. You know that it contains days of the week and times of day.

All the days of the week are abbreviated M, W, T, F.

Oh, and there's one called R

WTF is R?

process of elimination explains it for you

My conclusion would be that I was wrong, it can't be the days of the week.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But it has to be. It's a timetable.

Nobody would ever insert a random letter.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:33 AM

yeah, then it musn't be random, right?

Nothing ever has to be something in a bureaucratic institution.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It must correspond to ONE of the days

gee, which one could it be?

Could it be Monday? Wednesday? Friday?

No, it must be the abbreviations of the buildings. Or the departments.

A good student would learn.

Or just some internal code that nobody would understand.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:34 AM

No, that is clearly indicated in a different cryptic abbreviation.

(each building has a two letter building code and each room has a number)

squints

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So the Mechanical Engineering building is MC and room 101 is MC101

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No, those two-letter codes are the weekdays.

Just with some random metters.

The ones that refuse to accept R means Thursday are in the wrong place :D

MC is Monday Course, as opposed to, e.g., TuT "Tuesday Tutorial".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:35 AM

@Cerberus Look. If you saw my first year timetable you'd immediately understand it. I promise. Or else you probably aren't smart enough to be in university.

growls

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's just not that hard.

You don't have to be very smart to attend university.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

You're just being difficult.

Do you enjoy arguing with a drunkard?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:36 AM

@Cerberus I dunno. Am I doing it?

Yes. Why?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

drunkard: a person who is habitually drunk

> a person who is drunk

That is the only time you argue

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus no. That's just "a drunk"

4:37 AM

No, he argues all the times. Like me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

a drunkard is always drunk

No he doesn't

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You're still doing it.

Yes he does

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@skullpatrol You have no idea. Or else you're just being contrary. In which case it'll be five quid to continue.

4:38 AM

Sry :(

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I'm not doing it, because you're not habitually drunk, even if you're drunk right now.

Am I not?

What is a habit?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

A monastic robe?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus A drunkard is essentially never not drunk.

4:39 AM

Nah.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

You are frequently not drunk.

I deny everything.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The fact that you are sometimes drunk doesn't make you a drunkard.

Therefore I'm NOT arguing with a drunkard.

Therefore I deny any knowledge about whether or not I enjoy such a thing.

I refuse to acknowledge this strict definition.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Also what if I'm drunk?

would that change things?

4:40 AM

No, then you'd still be doing it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I have been drinking. Drambuie, on the rocks.

Arguing as a drunkard?

Can't say I'm surprised.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, I only had one.

Let's just call it a drunken argument, then.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

This calls for some fisticuffs.

brandishes fists

4:41 AM

I do not have fists.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

oh. awkward.

Quite.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

brandishes rolled-up newspaper

This calls for some tail-wagging.

Oh. Awkward.

Dawn is upon me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

wonders where he got a newspaper

4:42 AM

shakes non-fist

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Dan?

Who's Dan?

He's big and bright.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It was better before you changed it

And lacking a w.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, you can't have nice things.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

yeah it's late and I have a meeting to.... day. later today.

4:43 AM

Ouch.

How early?

What time is it now?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I have nice things. They're plastic and sorted into boxes.

@Cerberus almost 1am. The meeting is at 10.

But you need more of them!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus yeah, more nice things!

Hmm then you still have time to get a decent night's sleep.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

yeah especially since the kids are away, so I can sleep in.

4:44 AM

Yay!

@Cerberus Complaints complaints. Now you want a quarrel. Can you even wind that crossbow?

Damn it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

again, better before you fixed it

@tchrist I am not Odysseus, and we have no such futuristic contraptions.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

wind that cross boy! Dan is upon you!

Well, it was an acciddent.

Ok, then a cross boy is all you get.

4:46 AM

winds cross boy

heh

We all know who the cross boy is.

By the way, does wind mean something obscene?

@Cerberus The seahorse?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus it should

Do we have a seahorse here?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh, you people...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:47 AM

Do you mean: river horse?

Estuarial perhaps.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, Siri.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Stop it, Altavista.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

guys. I was trying to be Google. sulks

I guess it wasn't a good impression

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

yeah I don't look like that though

4:54 AM

Give it a few more years.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I would have to grow my hair

You could.

You have twenty years.

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