English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

12:03 AM

Good job.

Johan Larsson

The forest fire is a potential issue, could smell the smoke this morning.

It was slightly ~foggy

Cerberus

There is a forest fire?

Johan Larsson

yeah

Cerberus

And they're still trying to kill it?

Johan Larsson

svd.se/nyheter/inrikes/…

Cerberus

12:07 AM

A possible evacuation...

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus Think it is more or less impossible given how dry it is, have not rained in a month.

Robusto

Know what I hate? Coders who start open braces on a separate line:

Johan Larsson

I do that!

Not scoping like an Egyptian

Robusto

if (bool === true)
{
    goFuckYerself();
}

Cerberus

Hmm why?

@JohanLarsson That is very long!

Robusto

12:09 AM

I am compulsive about semicolon insertion, and I just couldn't see the error here:

if (bool === true);
{
    goFuckYerself();
}

Johan Larsson

According to sources the fire ~jumped~ over a 1700m wide lake yesterday.

Robusto

@JohanLarsson 1700 miles? That's a lot.

Johan Larsson

@Robusto That is a tricky one, been bitten by it a couple of times.

Robusto

@JohanLarsson Fuck 'em and everybody looks like 'em.

Johan Larsson

bracing style does not prevent it though?

Robusto

12:12 AM

Even Google, even Douglas Fucking Crockford, thinks braces go on the same line, not a new one.

@JohanLarsson Sure it does.

if (bool === true); {
    goFuckYerself();
}

The error is now obvious.

if (bool === true) {;
    goFuckYerself();
}

Nobody would look at the above and think all is right with the world.

Johan Larsson

second one is not an issue right? (dunno much js)

George Pompidou

@Robusto اسی طرح

you have semicolons in weird places.

Robusto

@GeorgePompidou You ain't gonna go all religious on me now, is ye?

@GeorgePompidou Exactly. Thank you.

George Pompidou

apparently people in node.js don't put semicolons at the end of every line anymore.

I didn't know this was possible so I tried it at work today, and nothing happened.

Robusto

It's not strictly required in JavaScript. But it's good practice.

George Pompidou

12:17 AM

I'm new to all js, so I had no idea of any of this.

Robusto

I believe it's required if you use the declaration use strict;

Johan Larsson

I think I can learn to love significant whitespace

George Pompidou

my boss said he doesn't put semicolons in declarations like var something = function() { blah; blah; }

Johan Larsson

removes the issue altogether

Robusto

Whitespace is fine if there's a reason for it. Not if there isn't.

@GeorgePompidou Then he's an idiot, and you may tell him for me. But use @JohanLarsson's name.

George Pompidou

12:18 AM

I don't see the difference. calling a method and declaring something are both single things.

they should be treated equally as far as semicolons after are concerned.

he cited the "google js style guide" as his source.

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson That's...incredible!

Sparks big enough to light a forest fire can be blown that far through the air?

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus It was windy.

Robusto

var something = function() { blah; blah; }
(function foo(){
  //statements
})

See? In this case the something function tries to execute with the function foo argument.

Cerberus

Even so!

George Pompidou

maybe I have it backwards? who knows. I like semicolons. they make lots of sense.

Johan Larsson

12:20 AM

Both semicolons and braces are noise imo

But I'm used to them.

Robusto

@JohanLarsson Let's not say things we can't take back.

Cerberus

Haha.

Robusto

It's been proven to the contrary. Some things can't be withdrawn.

Some bells cannot be unrung.

George Pompidou

> Einmal dem Fehlläuten der Nachtglocke gefolgt – es ist niemals gutzumachen.

like the Nachtglocke.

Robusto

@GeorgePompidou Night bells? What are those?

George Pompidou

12:23 AM

a night call?

a call at night

Johan Larsson

5 mins ago, by Johan Larsson

I think I can learn to love significant whitespace

Robusto

Now you're just trying to bait me.

Johan Larsson

indentation = scope

George Pompidou

meh.

Johan Larsson

Python does it right? F# does it.

George Pompidou

12:24 AM

I don't think indentation is reliable.

Robusto

@GeorgePompidou I would say it's the night bells' false alarm, or something like that.

George Pompidou

@Robusto yep.

problem I've always had with python is "inconsistent use of tabs and spaces"

because some idiots use 4 spaces, some 6 spaces

and I use tabs

Robusto

@GeorgePompidou Genau.

George Pompidou

and who knows, you say that's not a problem

but some day

some idiot will use the character  as his indentation

!!!!! runs

Cerberus

What is that!!

A kind of abomination? I can't see it.

Robusto

12:26 AM

59

Q: Is Python a snake or a programming language? If the latter, why is it choking my dog?

We've been getting a rash of questions asking, essentially, what a programmer should name methods or properties. One such was a request for a word that meant both "add" and "remove" because the programmer wanted to have a method that could add or remove an element. Does this really fall under E...

Remember this old chestnut?

George Pompidou

@Cerberus s3.amazonaws.com/capote/…

Robusto

First time I ever got FumbleFingers' knickers in a royal twist.

George Pompidou

ugh, what's going on with s3

Cerberus

> AccessDeniedAccess Denied092C3A5884C4A8DCe5n3KvqVhyq1hqSaWh115Cm8cOZANFy6rr8XKtMu/Brhfaf2OGj1+6rgzh‌g8RIPE

George Pompidou

yeah, one sec.

Robusto

12:27 AM

@Cerberus Denied!!!

@GeorgePompidou You're confusing Oranges with Apples.

Cerberus

I know!!

@GeorgePompidou Haha gross! I do not need a font that can read that.

Robusto

Kinda proud of that one.

You should all bow down to my excellent pun.

Thank you.

George Pompidou

I like it too, but you kind of need context

Robusto

Almost everything does.

George Pompidou

nope. not these nuts.

Robusto

12:30 AM

No playing with your nuts in chat.

Johan Larsson

I have written very little Python so don't have an opinion about the language.

Hear good things about it though

George Pompidou

it's great!

Robusto

To understand recursion, first you must understand recursion.

Johan Larsson

I feel so old and dumb when trying to learn new languages.

prolly due to old & dumb :D

George Pompidou

148

Q: What are the drawbacks of Python?

Python seems all the rage these days, and not undeservingly - for it is truly a language with which one almost enjoys being given a new problem to solve. But, as a wise man once said (calling him a wise man only because I've no idea as to who actually said it; not sure whether he was that wise at...

programming-languages python

this is well said.

I just don't like Python much. not for any particular reason, since I'm by no means a pro programmer

also I haven't really seen any practical application of it anywhere.

maybe I have but I cannot remember.

Johan Larsson

12:38 AM

> While I don't mind the lack of ability to catch semantic errors upfront as a tradeoff for the dynamism that Python offers, I wish there were a way to catch syntactic errors and silly things like mistyping variable names without having to actually run the code.

^ would be 1 on my list

George Pompidou

that seems like something a text editor could do easily.

javascript is the worst at syntactic errors. the only syntax error it gives is syntax error. unless I'm missing something, I have to run my code and then rip my hair out to catch a parentheses mismatch.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@GeorgePompidou There are compilers you can use

George Pompidou

that will tell me on which line my parentheses is missing?

or a general ballpark. honestly, even which file would be great.

Cerberus

1:06 AM

Autohotkey does that.

If a parenthesis is missing, it will say something like, "invalid parameters for command blahblah on line 18767".

Or something like that.

Mitch

1:51 AM

AHK is Turing complete.

Cerberus

2:06 AM

Haha I don't know about that.

Mitch

!!wiki turing complete

"Did you read the question, or did you just decide you would write out the only things you know about the words?"

Turing completeness

In computability theory, a system of data-manipulation rules (such as a computer's instruction set, a programming language, or a cellular automaton) is said to be Turing complete or computationally universal if it can be used to simulate any single-taped Turing machine. The concept is named after Alan Turing. A classic example is lambda calculus. A closely related concept is that of Turing equivalence – two computers P and Q are called Turing equivalent if P can simulate Q and Q can simulate P. Thus, a Turing-complete system is one that can simulate a Turing machine; and, given the Church–Turing...

which means that AHK can do 'anything', at leat anything that other programming languages can.

Except I don't really know if AHK is TC. I was saying that for fun.

Also, we've had this conversation before.

@Cerberus upon searching, no, we haven't had this conversation before.

But 1) we should have and 2) we've had all the parts of the conversation just in different places.

Jasper Loy

2:30 AM

@Cerberus Are you still awake?

Mitch

@JasperLoy Dude, I just answered a math question on ELU! Why don't you try?

1

Q: "exact soluble model" or "exact solvable model", "analytic" or "analytical" solutions

In physical science and math, we encounter some models that can be analytically solved. This means that the properties of models are fully understood and determined by the analytical solutions. In the literature, we will refer those models as: exact soluble model or exact solvable mode...

adjectives terminology usage mathematics science

What is 'terminal side'? You have to know the meanings of English words, not just symbols, to understand math.

Cerberus

@Mitch As always! Especially the article the we have in many places.

@JasperLoy Yes, you?

Jasper Loy

@Cerberus I just woke up.

Cerberus

I see.

It is morning for you.

Jasper Loy

I used the email associated to an old deleted account to log in this time, so the system gave me 100 association even before I should get it, but on only one of two sites, lol.

Cerberus

2:48 AM

Yay!

If you just stopped logging into your account whenever you felt like leaving, wouldn't that be more efficient than deleting your account every time?

George Pompidou

3:53 AM

is that TC? yeah that's TC.

are you TC?

I'm TC, man.

Jasper Loy

4:21 AM

I think I should think of some questions to post on Eng.

0

Q: Using "and" twice for four items

What is the best way to say that a book treats single variable differential calculus, single variable integral calculus, multivariable differential calculus and multivariable integral calculus? I can think of This book treats single and multivariable differential and integral calculus but...

conjunctions

Cerberus

> Google Struggling To Deal With Right To Be Forgotten Requests -- Will Now Delete Wikipedia Page From Search Results

European Court of Justice, sometimes you suck. Balls. And not in a good way.

Jasper Loy

4:55 AM

@Cerberus Better than criminalising gay sex.

Cerberus

Yes.

But still bad.

Jasper Loy

That is one of the laws here I hate, to answer your question a few weeks ago.

Cerberus

I agree.

I just read about the surveillance apparatus in S., actually.

Jasper Loy

I can no longer stand it here. I will try to leave once I am well.

Cerberus

And how it is 100x as invasive and ubiquitous as in the West.

Still, despite all that, S. is a safe and rich city.

Most of the world is far worse.

Jasper Loy

4:59 AM

There is nothing nontrivially good about this place.

I always tell my mum that I am born into the wrong family and also the wrong country.

It is grammatical and makes sense. It not ambiguous. However, if we like to improve readability/ clarity, it may rephrased appropriately. (Rephrasing/ proof-reading/ writing advice -- off topic on ELU.) — Kris 54 secs ago

Downvote probably from him as well.

There is certainly something wrong with him.

Cerberus

Born into the wrong family, that's not very nice towards your mother.

Jasper Loy

She understands what I mean.

Cerberus

Safety and good public healthcare and such are hardly trivial.

OK.

Jasper Loy

I think you are lucky to be in N.

@Cerberus OK you give S much credit.

Cerberus

Well, I'd rather be here, but you could have been in a far worse place.

Jasper Loy

5:11 AM

Yes, you are right. However, I am still very unhappy. You can say that I am not easily contented.

Cerberus

Yes.

Was just trying to cheer you up a tiny bit.

Jasper Loy

5:22 AM

I still think Kris is Thursagen lol.

I think I will go to bed.

Cerberus

Haha.

Good night!

Or, night...morning!

Johan Larsson

5:44 AM

yeah morning

Matt Эллен

7:37 AM

g'mornin'

RegDwigнt

8:31 AM

T'p'f the same t'ya.

Robusto

Fucking fire alarms.

Why do they have to notify you at 85 decibels at four in the fucking morning that the batteries are getting low?

Jasper Loy

Well, try to go back to sleep.

Robusto

What genius figured that one out? They should be shot.

@JasperLoy So I can get up in an hour? Please don't offer me any more advice.

RegDwigнt

See, that's why I don't have fire alarms. That way I can sleep through at all times. Not only when some stupid batteries are low, but in fact even when there's a fire.

Jasper Loy

I have a fire extinguisher.

Matt Эллен

9:38 AM

yay! my first answer in ages gets a nonsensical comment (and I assume downvote) from Kris. my work here is complete.

> Context: By "How was yesterday?", I mean a trivial and a non-specific question.

by context you mean no context?

RegDwigнt

Wait, Jasper is asking funny stuff now?

We need a dedicated tag for all the and-and questions.

Then we can close them all as dupes and delete the tag.

Matt Эллен

woo!

Andrew Leach

@MattЭллен Can I quote you on that?

RegDwigнt

and-and

There.

Matt Эллен

@AndrewLeach if you like :D

Andrew Leach

9:49 AM

Matt says...

Anonymous

Proper in what context? It's like asking what is proper: "a star" or "the star"? Both are demonstrative articles, but vary according to how specific is the article in question: — BiVOC 39 secs ago

Anonymous

My 2 cents.

Robusto

@MattЭллен Gave you a little Kris antidote.

Anti-venin, as it were.

RegDwigнt

I went a step further.

@Kris: so you are saying "lilac car" is ungrammatical — RegDwigнt ♦ 42 secs ago

Had to work on that one. Turns out there are lots of maroon and purple cars around.

barlop

is this question appropriate here..

a vegetable from whati 've googled, is an edible plant

then is an orange a vegetable?

Matt Эллен

10:00 AM

@Robusto thanks!

barlop

fine it has seeds so it's a fruit but is it a vegetable too?

i've seen a thing on a website that says an apple is a fruit and a vegetable.

RegDwigнt

@barlop that is a nonsensical definition, as every plant at all is edible. Including nuclear plants.

In fact it goes on to say "the non-biological definition of a vegetable is largely based on culinary and cultural tradition" in the very next sentence.

barlop

wikipedia does yes..

but what definition is the non-biological

it gives two definitions.. legal and culinary

so then is it saying that the biological definition is edible plant

and then your objection applies - that every plant is edible

RegDwigнt

I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within the shorthand description "vegetable"; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the orange involved in this case is not that.

Matt Эллен

I disagree that eatable is edible

RegDwigнt

10:04 AM

@MattЭллен I disagree that you disagree.

Matt Эллен

a nuclear plant is not fit to be eaten

barlop

Vegetable (culinary): any edible part of a plant with a savory flavor.

RegDwigнt

Michel Lotito

Michel Lotito (June 15, 1950 - June 25, 2007) was a French entertainer, born in Grenoble, famous for deliberately consuming indigestible objects. He came to be known as Monsieur Mangetout ("Mister Eats All"). His performances involved the consumption of metal, glass, rubber and other materials. He disassembled, cut-up, and consumed bicycles, shopping carts, televisions, a Cessna 150, and other items. The Cessna 150 took roughly two years to be "eaten", from 1978 to 1980. He began eating unusual material as a teenager around 16 years of age and performed publicly from 1966. Lotito claimed not to...

barlop

what is a nuclear plant? a building

we're talking about plants as in the natural things

not nuclear power stations!

Matt Эллен

@RegDwigнt because he did it doesn't mean it was a fit to be eaten. arsenic can be eaten, it is not fit to be eaten

barlop

10:06 AM

@MattЭллен ok so you define edible as fit to be eaten, and eatable as anything?

Matt Эллен

yes. if you can find a way to get it into your digestive system, through your mouth, then it is eatable.

barlop

well.. what do you think of the definition of vegetable as edible plant?

RegDwigнt

@MattЭллен so all you're saying is just because barlop says a norange is a vegetable doesn't make it a vegetable.

Matt Эллен

@barlop that makes sense.

RegDwigнt

You do know that simply saying "Reg is right" would have been shorter?

barlop

10:08 AM

I am just saying that an orange fits the definition given by wikipedia

Matt Эллен

of course, but then the chat would just be filled with you saying things and people writing "Reg is right"

RegDwigнt

@MattЭллен and that would be bad how?

Matt Эллен

@barlop yes, edible fruits are vegetables.

barlop

wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_an_apple_a_fruit_or_a_vegetable <-- and that link says an apple is a fruit and a vegetable

@MattЭллен So would you consider an orange, and a banana to be vegetables?

Matt Эллен

logically speaking

RegDwigнt

10:09 AM

Yeah good luck with that.

barlop

in terms of what people mean by vegetables, they are not vegetables

RegDwigнt

Just go to the first best grocery store and tell them about your logic.

barlop

vegetables in terms of what people mean.. Are I suppose edible plants that aren't fruits

Matt Эллен

@barlop it depends. if I had to split a pile in to fruits and vegetables based on what I thought most other people would think of as fruits and vegetables, I would put an orange and a banana into the fruit pile

barlop

Obviously

RegDwigнt

10:10 AM

You might wish to tell them that a tomato is a fruit, while you're at it. And that potatoes and carrots are neither fruits nor vegetables. Or that an apple is any fruit at all.

And that forty means "a lot".

I will pay to attend.

barlop

Look. What I am saying is.. and I don't know if you agree..

A fruit has seeds

Matt Эллен

@barlop sounds about right

@barlop I agree

barlop

And in terms of what people mean. A Vegetable is an edible plant that is not a fruit

RegDwigнt

Wut.

Cucumbers. Aubergines.

Matt Эллен

but the meanings are fuzzy and that is fine

@RegDwigнt fruity fruit

RegDwigнt

10:13 AM

@MattЭллен precisely right. Now tell that to the 7 billion people who call them vegetables.

I didn't go with Justice Potter Stewart for no reason, you know.

Every word means whatever we make it mean. If we decide that "cat" means "vegetable", then that's what it does. Even if "vegetable" has no meaning to begin with.

Matt Эллен

@RegDwigнt I don't need to. it's fine to call them vegetables

RegDwigнt

@MattЭллен then don't you fruity fruit me you silly nanny.

Matt Эллен

I call them fruit though

RegDwigнt

I call you fruit.

Imagine Terri were a toaster.

Matt Эллен

I call you to account

RegDwigнt

10:21 AM

15 hours ago, by Cerberus

Latin ac means "and, just as".

Who is "just as count"?

A baron?

I simply cannot attend until this question is resolved!

Matt Эллен

the signal is very noisy, so I can't tell

RegDwigнt

Drats.

0

A: Why can 'kick back' mean 'get relaxed'?

I think this is problematic - if you referenced Don mcleans early 70s hit what he actually said was (in American pie) 'we both kicked off our shoes' not kick-backed our shoes!