English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

I certainly acknowledge and respect that some people have very strong cultural and ethnic connections based on their race, but it's not something I personally experience.

simchona

@JSBangs I didn't say it was an easy choice

Or something easy to change, but it can be done.

JSBangs

but you cannot change the one you were originally raised with, and in practice very few people do

in fact, i'd argue that changing ethnicity is only really possibly in cosmopolitan, highly mixed situations such as the US and similar areas

simchona

@JSBangs but you can change which you identify with. In practice, maybe people don't. But in theory, ethnicity is fluid.

user19161

@JSBangs That sounds the case with Islam in an Islamic country.

user19161

Some people actually got into trouble for declaring they are not Muslim in some countries.

user19161

7:06 PM

It's pretty scary.

JSBangs

@Martha tell me if i'm right: a person raised ethnically Hungarian in Hungary could never identify themselves as German or vice versa. that's certainly how it is in Romania w/ Romanians, Germans, Hungarians, etc.

simchona

@JSBangs It's not how you're accepted. It's how you feel you are.

JSBangs

even if you wanted to and managed to completely get the proper accent, you'd only get away with it if you changed your name and moved some place where no one knows you

simchona

@JSBangs I never said other people need to accept it.

user19161

BTW fx and robusto look like mahjong tiles, even the colours match.

JSBangs

7:07 PM

@simchona it's completely meaningless to insist that you "are" X, if no one treats you as an X

simchona

A biracial or multiracial person, in particular

user19161

@JSBangs sounds like prescriptivism vs descriptivism.

simchona

@JSBangs Yes, external factors can influence you. But in the end, if you feel X then you can identify as X

FallenAngelEyes

@simchona That's how I tend to look at it. My boyfriend's mother's parents are Dutch, but they moved to Canada and lived there for a while. She was born there, so she has Canadian citizenship, and they lived there for the first 16 years of her life before coming back to the Netherlands. She's now lived here for over 35+ years and feels that she is both Canadian and Dutch.

Grace Note

@JasperLoy F'x does use one, as it were

Martha

7:08 PM

@JSBangs You mean if said person moved to Germany? I know of a few pathological cases of Hungarians in the US who refuse to identify themselves as anything other than American, but like I said, those are... outliers. (They also tend to be the people with the thickest accents.)

user19161

We even have a racial harmony day here. But sometimes this kind of thing makes one even more aware of differences rather than lessen them, whatever that means.

JSBangs

ethnicity is a social construct. but precisely because it is a social construct, there's no "true ethnicity" that can be separated from your social situation. so again, if you're identified by everyone around you as ethnicity X, then your insistence on being something else has no meaning. for all practical purposes, you are X

in the case of multi-racial or multi-ethnic people, it's polite to treat them as they wish to identify themselves

simchona

@JSBangs Internal vs. external. You feel X, you are X.

JSBangs

but of course that's an instance of social environment being flexible about that kind of thing, so in this scenario your self-identification does matter

user19161

@JSBangs same for multi-sexual. :)

JSBangs

7:10 PM

@simchona baloney. your inner feelings have nothing to do with it, for most people in most parts of the world

simchona

@JSBangs It has everything to do with it.

Bogdan Lataianu

Good point JSBangs

simchona

I don't dispute that external factors can influence you. But in the end, you can choose to identify as something, whether or not other people agree.

user19161

@BogdanLataianu Hello Bogdan!

JSBangs

@simchona we disagree about what's the "real" reality. i think that the social reality is more real than what you feel deep down in your heart.

Bogdan Lataianu

7:11 PM

Hello Jasper Loy

simchona

@JSBangs Perhaps. I don't think we're entirely at odds, just that we feel one thing is more important than another

user19161

@JSBangs What is real? Ask on Philosophy SE!

simchona

I'll say that my views are based on college courses which are part of my degree, so I tend to take the more Sociological/theoretical view

JSBangs

@simon so your inner disposition is only meaningful if your social environment respects that disposition. and most people in the world are not in an environment where changing your ethnic identity is possible or encouraged.

Grace Note

I think this is complex as to figure what we mean by ethnicity, though

Martha

7:13 PM

Sorry, @simchona, I'm with @JSBangs on this one: your ethnicity is determined by your upbringing. If you had a mixed/ambiguous upbringing, then and only then can you switch your "allegiance".

JSBangs

@simchona i'm also taking the sociological view

simchona

@Martha What about an adopted child, like @Fallen?

Grace Note

I mean, my father is born from first-generation German immigrant marrying a latter-gen German immigrant, and he happens to be fully German, but he is pretty much an American.

simchona

I'm not saying that White man can wake up and go, "Hey, I'd like to identify as Asian today!" and be ethnically Asian

user19161

But what determines us an individual is not just upbringing but also how we react to the world, so there are external and internal factors involved.

Grace Note

7:14 PM

Is his ethnicity German or American?

simchona

@JasperLoy Yes.

JSBangs

@simchona well, at least there's that :)

user19161

Ultimately the person is a sum-total of many things, hence the concept of non-self.

simchona

@JSBangs I really think we mostly agree.

FallenAngelEyes

@simchona I wish I knew the answer to that question! I've struggled since I was a child trying to figure out how I felt in regards to ethnic identification

simchona

7:15 PM

Just you take a more external factor approach, and I take a more internal factor approach. I think the two together make up ethnicity.

FallenAngelEyes

Am I "allowed" to identify as Korean even though I'm not culturally Korean at all?

Or only American?

user19161

@FallenAngelEyes Just feel whatever you like!

simchona

@FallenAngelEyes You're allowed to identify as whatever you like. People may assume more that you're Asian, however

FallenAngelEyes

How important is race in how I feel culturally?

JSBangs

@simchona on general principles, i reject the conceit that the most truest reality is the inner orientation or disposition. the external reality, the social web, and the material reality take priority. in some places (like cosmopolitan modern cities), people can change their identity because the social environment respects it. but that's the exception, not the rule

user19161

7:16 PM

@FallenAngelEyes Allowed yes. Recognised no.

Martha

@simchona You mean a racially-Asian person raised by non-Asian parents? I think that would qualify as a "mixed/ambiguous upbringing". Such a child could decide to self-identify as Asian ethnicity as an adult, but the degree of success will depend on (1) how much said child learns about the Asian culture he wishes to adopt, and (2) how far away he lives from people who grew up in that culture.

JSBangs

@simchona i think so, too, actually

FallenAngelEyes

@simchona But Koreans tend not to view me as such because of my American upbringing

simchona

@Martha OK, I see what you mean now.

FallenAngelEyes

And Americans view me as Asian because of how I look

So it's a complicated thing

JSBangs

7:17 PM

@Fallen i sympathize with your situation

simchona

@FallenAngelEyes Unfortunately this is where reality and theory combine.

Grace Note

Hrm, for an entirely unrelated reason, this discussion has taken an unsettling turn on me.

user19161

@GraceNote Why?

simchona

JSBangs' point, unsettling though it is, is that external matters more

@JSBangs People can try to fight that, though. However, I do agree with the majority of what you've said.

FallenAngelEyes

I remember sitting down in a class in university next to someone who looked racially Asian. They were apparently Korean and asked if I was Korean too. I said I was, but I was adopted and grew up in America, and like... the disappointment was visible on their face.

Grace Note

7:18 PM

@JasperLoy I'm content to whatever number of people can figure it out from contextual clues.

Michael Myers

Some guy at the bus station asked me if I was American Indian. “Yes I am sir. My name is ‘One Who Is Chinese.’”

Tweeted by jzy on April 16, 2011 at 3:22 AM

Grace Note

@MichaelMyers Oh Jin...

user19161

@FallenAngelEyes Maybe it's not disappointment but sth else?

simchona

@FallenAngelEyes That has to do with what JSBangs said, I would think.

Asians, as far as I can tell, feel that Asians born and raised in Asia are more "real"

user19161

@MichaelMyers Sounds complicated!

simchona

7:20 PM

Japan is an example

Mana

@FallenAngelEyes Weird. My room mate is Korean and he didn't have problems like that even though he was born and raised in Canada

FallenAngelEyes

@JasperLoy Well, perhaps disinterest? She didn't have any real interest in talking to me after that.

simchona

@FallenAngelEyes Where were you at school?

FallenAngelEyes

Perhaps the notion of lack of shared cultural experience/upbringing as a bond

user19161

@FallenAngelEyes It's OK, just talk to the rest!

FallenAngelEyes

7:20 PM

@simchona Syracuse University

located in central upstate NY

JSBangs

good discussion, but i have to head out for the day

Martha

@FallenAngelEyes Could've just been a language issue. She was hoping to find someone she could finally speak with "normally", so when she learned you don't speak Korean, she was disappointed.

simchona

@FallenAngelEyes I think she might have thought you were "less" Korean than she was

JSBangs

catch up with y'all tomorrow

simchona

Bye @JSB

FallenAngelEyes

7:21 PM

@simchona This is often the feeling I get from people who were born and raised there, rather than just born there.

simchona

@FallenAngelEyes I feel out of place with Japanese people who were born and raised there, and I was raised in a biracial household

It partially has to do with, I think, how people of that country view race and ethnicity

Grace Note

@simchona I have a feeling an earlier line mentions you as Japanese but I missed it, isn't there?

simchona

@GraceNote Yup.

user19161

@simchona So Jew refers to religion, race, ethnicity all at once?

Grace Note

Ooh, @Fallen, do you have X-Ray eyes?

FallenAngelEyes

7:23 PM

@simchona Yeah, I think so

Jez

►

simchona

@JasperLoy Sketchy on the race/ethnicity (since that was part of the Holocaust)

user19161

@GraceNote Just fallen eyes.

Martha

@simchona But was it a bilingual household? That's the only reason I can feel at home in Hungary: if I didn't speak the language, the cultural familiarity wouldn't matter one whit.

FallenAngelEyes

@GraceNote Uuuuuh. No?

Grace Note

7:24 PM

@FallenAngelEyes Hum. I see

simchona

@Martha No, English only. Fourth generation Japanese in America. I was raised with Japanese traditions, however

user19161

@Jez I hope that was not you. Ouch!

FallenAngelEyes

Argh, what the crap google talk, why are you saying it costs .01/minute to call my sister?! I thought calls to the US were free.

Grace Note

Y'know those food packages where you have to fill it with water up to a certain line in order to cook?

simchona

@FallenAngelEyes Skype

user19161

7:25 PM

@FallenAngelEyes Only in the US.

FallenAngelEyes

@GraceNote Cup o'noodles!

simchona

I love Cup Noodle

Grace Note

The ones at the Korean store I go to, they feature the line on the outside, and the containers are fully opaque.

FallenAngelEyes

@JasperLoy Well I can use it to call my parents for free from here

Grace Note

None of my Korean friends have taught me the secret of how they get it right.

FallenAngelEyes

7:25 PM

@GraceNote ...bwuh

user19161

@FallenAngelEyes I like Nissin, but I prefer the plain ones where you dump into water to cook.

Grace Note

They all know about this, though, and say they just get by. My expectation is that secretly, they have X-Ray Vision to some degree.

Martha

@GraceNote I'm sure this makes sense in some universe somewhere...

simchona

@GraceNote Really honed spatial awareness.

FallenAngelEyes

@GraceNote Hahaha, that's awesome

And gtalk is now saying it's .01/min to call parents too. Argh.

Mana

7:27 PM

argh

user19161

Nissin > Maggi > Myojo for my noodle preference!

simchona

@FallenAngelEyes That isn't THAT much.

user19161

@Mana maaaaaaaaaaan!

FallenAngelEyes

@simchona But it's more than free!

simchona

@FallenAngelEyes You can't Skype them?

Martha

7:28 PM

@GraceNote (You know that the real, albeit boring, answer is "it doesn't really matter exactly how much water you put in. Just fill it almost to the top and call it good." :)

FallenAngelEyes

I don't know if she has it. Gonna email her now. grumblemutter

simchona

@FallenAngelEyes Google Vid Chat works too

user19161

@Martha You can eat it raw too, not bad!

simchona

@JasperLoy They used to say you'd get tapeworms or something if you ate it raw

FallenAngelEyes

@simchona I'm calling her cellphone directly though

simchona

7:29 PM

Well, that's what they told us kids anyway

@FallenAngelEyes Hmm...

user19161

@simchona Oh I just mean the noodles, I think that should be OK.

Grace Note

Heh

Martha

@FallenAngelEyes That's probably why they want to charge you: only the computer-to-computer stuff tends to be free.

FallenAngelEyes

@Martha But I call my parents on their land line phone without charge and have called other people's cells without charge. :/ I think they maybe just changed their policy or something... I dunno.

Ugh, it's her birthday and I wanted to talk to her. This is so frustrating.

simchona

@FallenAngelEyes It was probably free for a while to get people to use it

FallenAngelEyes

7:31 PM

@simchona They claimed it was going to remain free through 2011 :(

simchona

@FallenAngelEyes If you have proof of that, call and complain

user19161

Do you guys use friendster. Today I went there and realised you can't search for people anymore until you sign up. :(

simchona

@JasperLoy Friendster went under a few months back, I think

user19161

@simchona Even then nothing might happen.

FallenAngelEyes

@JasperLoy They're changing the site into a social gaming site

At least that's what I received in an email

user19161

7:32 PM

@simchona It used to be the in thing, now everyone has switched to FB.

simchona

@JasperLoy Remember Myspace?

FallenAngelEyes

I signed up for it way back but never used it. I'm not a big social networking person.

user19161

@FallenAngelEyes Aww, now I can't spy on people there!

Bogdan Lataianu

though it looked better than FB,

user19161

@BogdanLataianu Cuter I would say. More colourful.

Bogdan Lataianu

7:35 PM

yes, this is what I mean

user19161

@BogdanLataianu How is your Eng now? Is it getting better with EL&U?

Bogdan Lataianu

@Jasper Loy my English is good, but I want to pronounce it better. EL&U is just a small piece of my master plan so to say

simchona

@BogdanLataianu I think Skype can actually help with that, if you're not using it already

Bogdan Lataianu

@simchona how?

simchona

@BogdanLataianu For a while, there was a way to call people in other countries in order to practice a certain language. So, you can get conversational practice with someone who can help you.

Try here too

0

Q: Multiple MLA inline citation question

I'm familiar with the basic rules on inline citation, however, recently I've stumbled onto this problem numerous times so I thought I would ask. When using MLA style inline citations, is it legal to use multiple citations in one sentence? For example: This is a sentence clause based on one ...

Voted to migrate

Bogdan Lataianu

7:51 PM

I would rather need a speech therapist but they are expensive. So I learn by myself. For example, I managed to make some words alveolar, not dental. It's cool.

simchona

@BogdanLataianu So you need to slowly learn how to make the right sounds, rather than practice speech?

Bogdan Lataianu

It's more important to make the right sounds first, it's accent reduction what I want.

Practicing speech, yes that is important too, but not a priority

simchona

Oh, I see. It might still help for you to get some conversation in there, so you can hear how native speakers pronounce things. That way you get an internal sense of how words sound.

But I see what you mean now, I misunderstood

Bogdan Lataianu

what do you study @simchona?

simchona

Economics and computer science

Grace Note

8:00 PM

Woo Computer Science!

Bogdan Lataianu

so why EL&U?

simchona

I used to be a linguistics major. I like the form and structure of language

@GraceNote Are you currently in college too?

Grace Note

@simchona Graduated already

simchona

Darn.

Grace Note

My position as youngest, once again, is challenged

simchona

8:03 PM

@GraceNote Waiwai is still in high school.

Grace Note

@simchona Don't make it worse!

simchona

@GraceNote Well, you're no longer youngest Asian female. Waiwai is youngest reputable Asian.

Grace Note

Wargh

simchona

0

Q: Multiple MLA inline citation question

I'm familiar with the basic rules on inline citation, however, recently I've stumbled onto this problem numerous times so I thought I would ask. When using MLA style inline citations, is it legal to use multiple citations in one sentence? For example: This is a sentence clause based on one ...

citation mla

Will you help me by flagging this to migrate?

FallenAngelEyes

Oh, MLA. Flashbacks to high school.

simchona

8:07 PM

I told him to move it. He's going to get it answered here. It's so off-topic it hurts.

Martha

@simchona In fact, he's gotten and accepted an answer from, who else, 3i. :/

user19161

@Martha He even said 'I will accept answer in 6 min'.

user19161

@GraceNote I think genesis is the youngest, 15 year old from Czech.

Bogdan Lataianu

@jasper I replied to you but you left

user19161

@BogdanLataianu I know, I know everything here, don't worry. :)

Bogdan Lataianu

8:20 PM

how do you pronounce the consonants? with alveolar ridge, right?

when English natives try to learn Romanian, you can hear that accent, they don't use the teeth

Robusto

So ... now there's proof that people who use IE are just a little slower than everyone else: bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14370878

bmike

@Robusto Awesome - I can see the marketing material now - Pick IE, chosen by 4 out of 5 fill_in_the_blank !

Martha

@Robusto That's hilarious. :)

user19161

@BogdanLataianu Well, I can only pronounce stuff but I don't know the technical details.

user19161

@Robusto Well IE does seem to be slower than FF in any case.

Bogdan Lataianu

8:27 PM

@Jasper when you pronounce "t", or "d" does your tongue touch the front teeth?

badp

Man, what was he thinking? "Jeanes"? I can totally see what's going on right now.

user19161

@BogdanLataianu Yes, sort of.

Robusto

It's been the bane of my existence for years.

Oh look, it's a sock puppet! Right in our very room!

Thursagan

@Robusto Hi , I'm kinda new to chat say what

user19161

@BogdanLataianu Well, a bit behind the front teeth really.

Thursagan

8:29 PM

is going on?\

bmike

(what was that circle with a (2) and all sorts of flag and risky things)

user19161

@Thursagan Would you lie to tell us if you are Thursagen in disguise? :)

Thursagan

I

am

bmike

Is the software protecting my eyes from what it deems filth?

Thursagan

not

a\

Thursagen

disguise\

Michael Myers

8:31 PM

Space bar is a little to the left and down.

Bogdan Lataianu

@Jasper behind the teeth is not the same as touching the teeth. That is using the alveolar ridge. Thanks

Thursagan

Thanks\

@bmike No it isn't

bmike

@Thursagan Thanks - i'm new to how this chat interface works

user19161

@BogdanLataianu I see. Good!

Thursagan

@JasperLoy I am not Thursagen but I inda know him

sorry kinda

bmike

8:32 PM

I was confused why (or whether) I was being asked to flag something

user19161

@Thursagan Are you his brother or sister?

Martha

@bmike Hmm? Is it a blue circle, and is it on the top right corner of your avatar (the one that appears to the left of the input box at the bottom)?

Thursagan

Oh that

is nothing

@JasperLoy not telling can

bmike

@Martha Yes - but it was red with a 2

in the same spot as the blue circle is usually placed

Martha

@Thursagan, could you please not use the Enter key as a substitute for the Space bar?

user19161

8:34 PM

@Thursagan Space bar is a little to the left and down of enter as @michael said.

Thursagan

you not see that i am hiding my identity by using a picture of my bear

user19161

@Thursagan Well, I have X-ray eyes. I can see through that bear.

Martha

@bmike That's usually flags, possibly (probably?) from an entirely different room.

FallenAngelEyes

@JasperLoy So you're Korean!

Thursagan

@JasperLoy Thank you I am pretty used to the keyboard.

user19161

8:35 PM

Oh this is exciting. I hope Thursagen comes here as well to clear the air.

Thursagan

@Martha Sorry

user19161

@FallenAngelEyes No! I didn't read carefully just now but I know you people mentioned X-raye!

Thursagan

@JasperLoy Can you really?

bmike

@Martha OK - it had several sexual anatomy terms - i wasn't offended (it takes a lot to get this sailor to blush) but it flashed away before I could finish reading the limerick. I'd bet it came from another room and got quashed there based on the wording.

user19161

@Thursagan You'll be surprised. I know everything in this room, as mentioned.

Thursagan

8:37 PM

@JasperLoy Really?

user19161

More than you may think.

Martha

Also, @Thursagan, check out the "help" link at the bottom right. It has lots of useful stuff about how this chat works, including how to edit your posts.

Robusto

Message for @Dori or @GraceNote or @TPTB: When do we get ELU swag? I'm getting close to the point where I will need to do laundry soon.

Thursagan

@JasperLoy Oh wow (sarcastic)

Grace Note

@Robusto I don't know.

Thursagan

8:38 PM

@Martha Thanks heaps.\

Dori

@Robusto I was wondering that myself as I'm waiting on apple.se swag.

Thursagan

@Robusto Why aren

Martha

@bmike Yeah, sounds like a flag. In my experience, they're shown to some random person with sufficient rep who has never visited the room in question. (Don't know if this is the intended behavior.)

Thursagan

@Robusto Why aren

Sorry guys I'm typing in the dark that's why

Martha

@Thursagan The up arrow is your friend.

bmike

8:39 PM

Oh sweet.

Thursagan

@Robusto WHy aren't you joining the chat

bmike

That would make most excellent sense.

user19161

@Robusto When was the last time you did laundry? A year?

Thursagan

@Martha Thanks.

bmike

It needed flagging. I'll pay more attention next time it hits me. Appreciate the info

user19161

8:40 PM

@Thursagan You need to see the light then.

Thursagan

@JasperLoy Was not that a bit over the line"\

Martha

@Robusto Snort! :D

Thursagan

@JasperLoy Why?

user19161

@Thursagan Because you cannot type in the dark!

Thursagan

@JasperLoy I'm perfectly fine in the dark

RegDwight

8:41 PM

Jun 20 at 15:00, by RegDwight

Wait, what? You are clothed?

Robusto

@JasperLoy — A month, a year, ten years ... eventually you either have to do laundry or else buy new clothes. It's a law of nature or something.

Thursagan

!!!!@RegDwight AHEM this is kinda weird who are you addressing?

@Robusto RIGHTO you got it.

user19161

@Thursagan You sure you not Thursagen? Pinocchio's nose grew longer when he told a lie.

Grace Note

@Thursagan He was addressing @Robusto

Martha

@Thursagan See the subtitle of this room? We take it seriously. :þ

Thursagan

8:43 PM

@JasperLoy is my nose any longer

Michael Myers

@Thursagan Click on the arrow in the upper left corner of his post.

user19161

@Thursagan It has become quite round and fat. Left arrow refers back, right arrow to reply.

Thursagan

@MichaelMyers thanks guys

Cerberus

@Robusto: Are you Thursagan?

Thursagan

@JasperLoy SOmeone has joined our groug

@Cerberus DO NOT insult me.

Cerberus

8:45 PM

It was not meant as an insult.

user19161

@Cerberus I'm getting confused! Who is Thursagan?

Martha

@Thursagan If you think being mistaken for Robusto is an insult, you haven't been around long enough.

Thursagan

looks like mana is here

@Martha actually I know him quite well but what does reputation matter?

Mana

Hey.

Robusto

@Cerberus — I dunno. I'll ask my therapist at our next session.

Thursagan

8:47 PM

@JasperLoy Thursagan is me

@Mana HI

Mana

How's it going?

user19161

@Thursagan You don't know him. He is a cigar, and a dream, and some other things.

Thursagan

@Robusto UM do you change?

Sorry might have been a bit rude

@JasperLoy I for once believe you because I know

@Mana It is going fine have fun

I'm real busy

Martha

@Thursagan So, enlighten us: why did you choose a username that is almost identical to the current name of another user? (Especially a user with such a, uh, history?)

user19161

@Thursagan Since you have been in this room for a minute, I have traced you to your street address already.

Thursagan

8:49 PM

JasperLoy watch out for him he is dangerous

Cerberus

@JasperLoy I don't know, I was asking.

@Thursagan Oh, how do you know him, if you are not he?

user19161

@Thursagan I have met many dangerous people before, don't worry.

Thursagan

@Martha No Thursagen meant to have my name but I took it.