English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

user19161

6:02 PM

@FallenAngelEyes Same, mine is off half the time. At least this one gives me the alarm clock while off, the previous one had to be left on for the alarm clock to work properly.

user19161

@MattEllen 'never mind'. Improve your spelling before taking over the heavens.

Rhodri

Right. It's 7pm, my videos fail to work in interestingly different ways, it looks like rain and I'm on a bike. I'll be off now, then. CU

user19161

@Rhodri Tell us later, maybe we can help with the video problem.

Matt Ellen

@JasperLoy my spelling is fine, my fingers are just lazy :p

@Rhodri CU!

user19161

It's quite hard to get all videos to play on linux. You need to try different players and different codecs for different computers.

user19161

6:08 PM

Somehow the software must match the hardware too.

user19161

And I have not figured out how to print on linux either, but in this case the printer is an exotic one.

Matt Ellen

@JasperLoy what have you got? Is it a 3D printer?

user19161

@MattEllen NEC PE220. I found this page which says it should work OOTB but it doesn't on Ubuntu. Maybe there's something obvious I'm missing here.

user19161

vyvy.org/main/node/146

user19161

It's actually an old printer that my mum got from her workplace.

user19161

6:12 PM

I wouldn't get such a big and expensive one for home use.

Matt Ellen

vimeo.com/25401444

user19161

So to summarise: the two main problems with linux for those considering switching are videos and printing!

Matt Ellen

sorry I can't stay and diagnose. I have band practie.

nightoh!

JSBangs

@JasperLoy this is well-known

user19161

@JSBangs You use linux too. Which distro are you a fan of?

JSBangs

6:17 PM

ubuntu/debian

but i'm very promiscuous. i have a pc desktop, a ubuntu laptop, and a mac laptop

and speaking of promiscuity, i see that @Kit has entered the room

user19161

Good! The advantages of Debian-based systems is the apt-get purge, apt-get autoremove, w32codecs which works with gnome-mplayer for playing wmv3/wmv9 videos, and mscorefonts-installer for easy installation of windows fonts.

JSBangs

i remember back when i first tried to get debian running, i had to beat myself bloody trying to get sound to work

i spent HOURS reading alsa documentation

Kit

@JSBangs I am not promiscuous.

JSBangs

and never did get the damn thing working

user19161

The removal of dependencies when you remove a piece of software is so basic, yet many distros still don't have this sorted out.

JSBangs

6:19 PM

@Kit peripatetic, then?

Kit

@JSBangs I've rather settled down now.

JSBangs

i was teasing in any case

user19161

@JSBangs The trick for many things which we forget is sometimes we just need to restart the computer. And in Debian Squeeze at least the restart doesn't off the computer in the usual way, so I do a shutdown and then on once and the sound worked again.

JSBangs

@JasperLoy that was definitely not the problem with my sound. i was missing drivers, and the drivers theoretically existed, but could not be found in a form usable with my kernel version, etc.

it was a rabbit hole

it's gotten much better in the ~9yrs since then

Kit

I had trouble with wireless drivers on my Ubuntu box as well.

JSBangs

6:22 PM

the only trouble i have now is with resume from sleep

user19161

I never put it to sleep. Always shutdown completely.

user19161

And Debian Squeeze removed nonfree firmware making wireless laptops even harder to install it on.

JSBangs

@JasperLoy half of the point of a laptop is that you don't have to reboot every time. ideally, i just open the lid and it's ready to go

user19161

And till now they still have no damned live CD, only a 1.1 GB live DVD.

JSBangs

@JasperLoy really? what a PITA

this rather reduces my opinion of them

i very much like apt, but Ubuntu has a superior ecosystem

and a less ideological, more pragmatic approach to packaging, etc.

user19161

6:25 PM

@JSBangs Of course Ubuntu uses apt too. But 11.04 is a disappointment. I think Unity shell is crazy. At least 11.10 will have gnome shell from the repositories.

user19161

Currently I use Fedora 15 with gnome shell. IMAO gnome panel (to be deprecated) > gnome shell > unity shell.

JSBangs

i like ubuntu because it uses apt. i've been using 11.04 without any trouble, but i'm slightly wary of 11.10

user19161

I would be less wary of 11.10. It is well-known that 11.04 is not polished, too many bugs.

JSBangs

i'm wary of everything new. most new things are inferior to the already-existing things

and i prefer to let others do the experimentation and discover for me which new things are actually worth caring about

user19161

And I don't think there is a need for mint. Mint is just ubuntu plus a few extra tools here and there which I think may make things worse in some cases.

JSBangs

6:28 PM

... in this case meaning that i won't install 11.10 until probably the beginning of '12, and only if i've heard good things about it

@JasperLoy i'm only familiar with mint as an online finance tool

user19161

@JSBangs Let others do the shit, eh? :) Well, sometimes I test out things and report bugs to the creators so that they can fix it.

JSBangs

@JasperLoy i've been known to do the same, but only in the very narrow range of things that i care very deeply about

^ and this does not include open source OS's

user19161

Also sometimes a bug report or feature request may not be looked into, so there's some inertia there in reporting.

JSBangs

i uninstall about half of the stuff that comes in a stock Ubuntu distro anyway. i have a very small set of programs that i'm interested in using on my laptop

user19161

If all distros combined into one and start actively promoting, then windows will be over in a decade. But that is not likely to happen in the real world. There is a project called reactOS that aims to be windows executables compatible, but it may not come to fruition in my lifetime.

JSBangs

6:33 PM

@JasperLoy windows would not be over in a decade. the installed user base is way too old and way too entrenched. linux users constantly underestimate the importance of this

user19161

@JSBangs I have given up on uninstalling stuff, just leave it there if not short of disk space. Sometimes you remove one thing and you need to remove useful stuff unknowingly too, then you are screwed with that dependency hell.

JSBangs

to wit: my grandmother just moved off of Windows 98 last year when the hardware she was running finally died. no force in the universe would get her to switch to a Mac, much less linux

user19161

Windows 98 wtf???

JSBangs

@JasperLoy srsly

but Win7 is a fine OS with her, and she can still play all of the MahJong games that she installed

user19161

Actually I almost never touched a computer until I went to uni. And most of the computers I got are free since my mum used to work in this computer company. I used to hate computers really.

Grace Note

6:35 PM

@JSBangs Haha, a fine choice of game if I do say so myself.

Martha

My laptop's screen just died this weekend. Sniff.

user19161

@JSBangs I thought only Chinese (by race) plays mahjong.

JSBangs

@JasperLoy and how do you know i'm not chinese?

or that my grandmother isn't?

Grace Note

@JasperLoy I'm not Chinese and I play Mah Jong. Furthermore, there's many different styles of Mah Jong, one of the more popular being Japanese

user19161

@JSBangs True, in fact now I think you are! But I've given up guessing on people here, it's too complicated!

JSBangs

6:37 PM

no one in my family is chinese :). but it's a popular game here nonetheless

Grace Note

My father (German) plays Mah Jong as well, so there you go.

user19161

@GraceNote Well, you are sort of half-Chinese!

Grace Note

@JasperLoy Except I'm not, and no hard feelings but I hope you understand that I'll consider it an intentional insult if you try and assert that kind of essence again.

user19161

I hate mahjong and all card games. In fact I don't play any games at all now. Games are boring!

Martha

The only thing the computer solitaire game called Mah Jong has in common with the four-person cutthroat game played by Chinese grandmothers is the tiles.

JSBangs

6:39 PM

@JasperLoy i don't understand. why exactly did you assert that Grace note was half-chinese?

Grace Note

@Martha This is why you don't play the Solitaire versions.

@JSBangs I'm half Taiwanese.

user19161

@GraceNote Assert? No I didn't assert anything. I thought you said your mum is Taiwanese?

JSBangs

@JasperLoy we play tons of card games in my family. whist, hearts, and cribbage being the most popular ones

Martha

@JasperLoy Chinese <> Taiwanese.

JSBangs

@GraceNote now i'm twice confused. being half taiwanese, do you really object to being called "chinese" ?

user19161

6:40 PM

@Martha You mean the race, or the nationality?

Grace Note

@JSBangs Yes, I do.

Kit

Given that Taiwan is the real China, and all?

Martha

@JasperLoy The latter, naturally.

JSBangs

@GraceNote but it's called the Republic of China

Grace Note

@JSBangs It's also called Formosa at times as well.

user19161

6:41 PM

@Martha I was talking about race you see, so all the more puzzled with Grace's comment.

JSBangs

i hope i'm not being rude. i'm seriously perplexed

Grace Note

You're not being rude, you're just confused

I don't think Jasper is being rude right now, either.

JSBangs

is this a common sentiment? taiwanese people don't want to be called chinese?

Grace Note

@JSBangs Depends on who you ask.

JSBangs

i normally use the word "chinese" in a quasi-ethnic sense, encompassing han people regardless of whether they're in the PRC or taiwan

Grace Note

6:43 PM

Remember, there are two kinds of people on the island.

JSBangs

@GraceNote this was going to be my next question. are you ethnically native taiwanese, rather than chinese?

because in that case, i understand completely

user19161

@JSBangs I think you've got it, probably.

Grace Note

So racially, it isn't guaranteed that someone from Taiwan is actually Chinese.

Mr. Disappointment

I'm probably missing half of the point here, jumping in on the arse end of a conversation, but wouldn't this be the equivalent to calling me Irish because it is part of Great Britain, regardless of my being British?

JSBangs

@GraceNote this is true. wikipedia tells me that 98% of the population is ethnically han, though, so i hope you'll forgive me for making that assumption.

Kit

6:45 PM

I have a friend who is from Taiwan. After 1989, she swore she would never go back to the mainland, but her father asked her to return to visit his village this year. It's the first time she's been back since then.

user19161

@GraceNote Yes that's right. But just to let you know, I support Taiwanese independence, if it makes you happier, but we won't go into that now. :)

JSBangs

but yeah, if i were non-han taiwanese then i wouldn't want to be called chinese either

Martha

(It's somewhat like calling someone from Transylvania "Romanian". You might luck out and apply the label to someone who is actually Romanian, but you're equally likely to offend someone who is actually Hungarian or German.)

Grace Note

I have no grudge against the mainland, myself.

Michael Myers

Friday is English.SE's first birthday. Who's planning the party?

Martha

6:46 PM

@MichaelMyers Not me. Suck at planning. Suck at parties, for that matter.

user19161

BTW race is not well-defined. Try reading up on it and you will see there are different scientific models for race, so it's really a very fuzzy concept.

JSBangs

@GraceNote if you don't mind me prying, do you speak one of the aboriginal taiwanese languages? or do you have relatives that do? which ethnic group are you in?

Grace Note

I don't mind being called Chinese unless the person already knows that I'm Taiwanese. Then it kinda ticks me off a bit since I wouldn't have made the distinction if it wasn't important to me. I've always been fine with the "Oriental" and "Asian" overgeneralizations.

@JSBangs I speak two of them.

Very, very roughly, but I speak two nonetheless.

JSBangs

@GraceNote awesome. which ones?

Grace Note

@JSBangs I don't know how to remotely type it, and I only know the name of one of them.

JSBangs

6:48 PM

sorry, but as a linguist i have to latch on to people speaking other languages, especially if they're non-indo-european, and especially if they're smallish minority languages

Grace Note

If I had to hurt myself to say it, it sounds kinda like "Ke Jia"

Mr. Disappointment

@MichaelMyers You might try shouting, it seems all too easy to go unnoticed in here.

user19161

@GraceNote I didn't mean to offend you, I don't know that much about the distinction, sort of heard of vaguely.

simchona

I'm against "Oriental", personally. "Asian" is fine, though

FallenAngelEyes

@GraceNote I'm not horribly fond of "Oriental," though "Asian" doesn't bother me

simchona

6:48 PM

(and good morning all!)

Grace Note

@JasperLoy No offense taken, hence why I told you just to be careful in the future.

simchona

@Fallen You're Asian too?

Kit

I like Asians.

;-)

user19161

@simchona I see the term oriental only in old books now.

Grace Note

@simchona @Fallen I figure that Oriental is the less-liked of the two, but I honestly can't be bothered to care about it too much.

FallenAngelEyes

6:49 PM

@simchona I was born in South Korea, I was raised in America, and now I live in the Netherlands.

JSBangs

@Grace could you maybe pick it out from this list?

Formosan languages

The Formosan languages are the languages of the indigenous peoples of Taiwan. Taiwanese aborigines (those recognized by the government) currently comprise about 2% of the island's population. However, far fewer can still speak their ancestral language, after centuries of language shift. Of the approximately 26 languages of the Taiwanese aborigines, at least ten are extinct, another four (perhaps five) are moribund, and several others are to some degree endangered. The aboriginal languages of Taiwan have significance in historical linguistics, since in all likelihood Taiwan was the place...

Grace Note

In this day and age, honestly? People just call me AZN

simchona

@FallenAngelEyes Cool.

user19161

@Kit Don't tell me your husband is one?

simchona

I'm Japanese, myself

FallenAngelEyes

6:50 PM

@GraceNote Haha, yeeeeeeah

@simchona I was adopted when I was only 3.5 months old, so culturally, I'm American

Grace Note

@JSBangs I have a distinct feeling that all of those "language names" are written in the wrong language

Kit

@JasperLoy Nope. Mostly Irish.

FallenAngelEyes

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formosan_languages#Extinct_languages <-this always depresses me to see :(

simchona

@FallenAngelEyes I'm half/half Asian/non Asian. Culturally I'm American since I'm born and raised here.

JSBangs

@GraceNote they are romanizations, which may be very different from the local pronunciation :)

user19161

6:51 PM

@Kit So why do you like Asians? I mean not that you would dislike them. I am just wondering what you were thinking about.

Grace Note

Culturally, I'm kind of an American/Taiwanese hybrid. Born and raised in the US, but always raised with a Taiwanese leaning and we made frequent and long trips to Taiwan when I was young.

@JSBangs "May" be very different? ♪

simchona

@GraceNote I've made the Taiwan/China distinction for a while, ever since I started actually meeting Taiwanese people

FallenAngelEyes

@JasperLoy I was assuming @Kit was making a joke on the whole uh... fetishistic fondness for Asians some Western people tend to have.

user19161

The news here always shows the dramatic arguments of the Taiwanese politicians. I wished things were more passionate here.

simchona

My college makes a distinction--Chinese club vs. Taiwanese club

Kit

6:53 PM

@FallenAngelEyes You got it.

Martha

@GraceNote Substitute Hungarian for Taiwanese, and you've just described me.

user19161

@FallenAngelEyes And I think the fetish goes the opposite direction as well @kit.

Grace Note

@Martha Haha

user19161

After all opposites attract

user19161

And the grass is always greener the other side.

Grace Note

6:54 PM

@JasperLoy If there's one thing my research paper on skin lighteners taught me, it was this.

FallenAngelEyes

Fetishes can go in any direction.

Kit

@FallenAngelEyes 'Struth.

FallenAngelEyes

Asians, furries, my little ponies, doesn't matter.

JSBangs

@GraceNote i have to say, as a pure american, skin lightening makes no sense to me. but of course, my preferences are small, dark and curvy, which is not a popular combination in broader pop culture

FallenAngelEyes

Honestly, I sometimes forget that I look non-white and when people ask me "Where are you from?" I tend to respond with my hometown

Grace Note

6:56 PM

@JSBangs Congratulations, you match 88% of the people I surveyed! ♪

FallenAngelEyes

Then they insist that's not what they mean, and I'm like "Oh yeah, I look Asian, don't I?"

Grace Note

@FallenAngelEyes This just reminds me of that hilarious exchange from Short Circuit.

JSBangs

@GraceNote woo! do i get a prize?

simchona

@FallenAngelEyes I've never actually gotten the "where ya from? No, really" question

I did grow up in a state where majority is Asian, though

FallenAngelEyes

@simchona They're pretty much always somewhat awkward conversations

Grace Note

6:57 PM

@JSBangs You could have 5 year old skin lightener if that was your thing.

Kit

Where I live, we have a large Native American population, and when people ask my friend what tribe he's from, he gets a kick out of saying "Inca."

FallenAngelEyes

I grew up in an area that was 99% white and Protestant

So I used to get it a lot

user19161

US classifies people as White Asian Hispanic Black, interesting.

Grace Note

I never really got the "Where you from" question because I followed in my elder brother's footsteps, so the answer was always known by the time I came around.

@Kit Hahaha

FallenAngelEyes

and end up in uncomfortable conversations with 75 year old men saying "Oh, I get along well with Orientals!"

simchona

6:57 PM

Hispanic isn't a race, though. It's an ethnicity

JSBangs

@Kit does anybody fall for it?

simchona

You can be Non Hispanic White, Hispanic Black, Hispanic Asian (Brazil, mostly)

user19161

Here we classify as Chinese Indian Malay Caucasian or sth like that.

JSBangs

@simchona the diff btwn race and ethnicity is pretty broad, though

Grace Note

@simchona Yet it is distinct enough that here in MA, on a Jury Duty form you are asked two questions: "What is your Ethnicity? (White, Black, Asian, Other)" and "Are you Hispanic?"

Kit

6:58 PM

@JSBangs Fall for it? I don't know. He is actually Incan.

FallenAngelEyes

Living in the Netherlands, I don't get the "Where are you from?" question anymore though really, or at least "America" is enough of an answer

JSBangs

@Kit ooooooh

simchona

@JasperLoy Are Malays treated specially in SG like they are in Malaysia?

@GraceNote Yup. It's like that on the Census -- pick your race, then whether you're Hispanic or not

JSBangs

@GraceNote which is so dumb, because it acts as if "hispanic" is the only ethnicity that matters