English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

user19161

7:00 PM

@simchona exactly, and they will lose a point.

simchona

Speaking of answers, I need another question or two...80 points from 3k

JSBangs

@LaurenΨ the one about the germanic ge-. (the original title was cute but not especially informative)

simchona

I NEED MY CLOSE VOTE

Cerberus

@RegDwight Yeah I do the same. So if I had to check edits that someone was doing on his own answer, I'd leave them be.

JSBangs

i just hope that no one touches "Who is Jesus H. Christ?" because that title is brilliant

Matt Ellen

7:00 PM

@simchona I came up with two questions at work, but I've forgotten them :(

Kit

@MattEllen Why does every guy always say "It doesn't happen to me"? We don't believe you, you know.

simchona

@MattEllen I just can't think of good enough questions at all.

user19161

@MattEllen Have a Kit Kat. It will refresh your memory.

Rhodri

@Kit We don't even believe ourselves.

simchona

@MattE I saw that someone tried to add you on FB, though

Kit

7:01 PM

@JasperLoy I am too far away to be of use.

simchona

@Rhodri Is that like not needing directions?

RegDwight

@Kit It doesn't happen to me that I say "It doesn't happen to me". Especially not twice in a row.

Kit

@simchona I lost 470 rep the day before I got my close vote, because I hit the rep cap. Heartbreaking.

Matt Ellen

@Kit ah... um... ano...

RegDwight

@Kit You can't lose what you never had.

user19161

7:02 PM

@Kit It's OK. It's just rep.

Lauren Ψ

@JSBangs lol I haven't come across that one but if I do I'll keep that in mind

Matt Ellen

@simchona Yeah, that was... spontaneous

Kit

@RegDwight Point taken. Like when you go to a sale and they say "You saved $5,000 today!"

Rhodri

@simchona Oh, we never need directions. They only get in the way.

aedia

@MattEllen I have so many great questions when the Internet is out of reach.

simchona

7:03 PM

@Rhodri It's not getting lost. It's scouting out the territory.

RegDwight

@Kit Yeah, except exactly the other way round.

Matt Ellen

@aedia well, not so much out of reach, but I felt bad asking non work related questions

Jez

damn, it is so hot and sticky in the air today here (UK)

a thunderstorm is inevitably coming.

always comes when it's muggy like this

Michael Myers

@Rhodri Foolproof method of getting to the right place: 1) Aim in the right direction and start going. 2) When you might have gone far enough, start looking around for something that looks right.

aedia

@Jez Now we know who's a secret HP fan.

Kit

7:04 PM

@RegDwight I'm glad we understand each other so well.

Matt Ellen

@Kit I feel like we're talking about different things. ;p

Rhodri

Hi @Jez. I like the new gravatar!

Jez

:-)

user19161

@Rhodri It looks evil.

Kit

@MichaelMyers Dirk Gently's holistic method of navigation: Follow the car in front of you.

Michael Myers

7:05 PM

Yeah, that works if you're going to a football game or something.

Rhodri

@MichaelMyers Sadly for me, what I usually spot is something that reminds me this was the wrong route.

RegDwight

I like this.

Life writes the best scripts.

user19161

@reg I suspect the answer is that someone upvoted it, removed the upvote in time but somehow it ended up there.

aedia

@Kit This has gotten me out of so many sketchy parts of town. I love Dirk Gently.

user19161

By the way, when is the next mod election?

Kit

7:07 PM

"You don't usually end up where you were headed, but surprisingly often we you need to be."

Or something like that.

OMF. Project leader! Grrr....

"Can you fix this by this afternoon?"

user19161

@Kit Deep.

Matt Ellen

Well, one question is easily answered by going to etymonline. I'll see if I can remember the other. Hopefully that's not gen ref

Kit

No. Try using a different effin' dataset, you moron!

user19161

@Kit Tell him to have a Kit Kat.

RegDwight

And now I have to go outta house. Meh. Laterz.

simchona

7:08 PM

@Matt I'll answer it first, reap the points, then flag

Kit

@JasperLoy Absolutely not. He would think I was coming on to him. Ick ick ick.

Matt Ellen

@simchona LOL I would feel dirty though

simchona

@Matt Nah. I'll just not flag. I'm getting the weird asymptotic flag weight anyway

Matt Ellen

@Kit not if you uppercut him right afterwards

user19161

@Kit Just tell him you are married, with two kids.

Rhodri

7:09 PM

@Kit Finally, some flirting Kit won't do!

user19161

I can flirt. I am single and available!

simchona

I am ... sort of

Matt Ellen

@simchona it's more asking a question I would not want on this site, than having one flagged :D

Kit

@JasperLoy Yeah. That doesn't make a difference to him, given that he got divorced and married his second wife because he knocked her up.

JSBangs

@Rhodri now i'm curious about this manager that falls beneath @Kit's exacting standards

Kit

7:10 PM

10

A: "You and I combined" versus "you and me combined"

In the original sentence, "Bob and I combined had 91 points", combined isn't the main verb. You could rewrite the sentence and still maintain its meaning by saying: Together, Bob and I had 91 points. The combined is serving more as a qualifier of the subject "Bob and I" rather than as a ve...

JSBangs

i'm imagining the boss from Office Space for now

Kit

Nice answer!

user19161

@Kit Oh I remember that asshole.

simchona

Thank you!

Kit

@JSBangs Ickier. Way ickier.

simchona

7:11 PM

It was with your help, though @Kit. I wouldn't have known what to say otherwise

user19161

And I will take over the world one song at a time!

JSBangs

@Kit your earlier comment re: his first wife makes him sound like a total asshat

Kit

@simchona I'm glad I suggested that you answer it. You've done well with votes!

@JSBangs Sexist arrogant jerk.

face punch (Just thinking about it.)

user19161

@Kit Unlike me.

simchona

0

Q: Is "the" required in "Welcome to [the] premier issue of"?

In the premier issue of a new magazine I saw today, the first line reads "Welcome to premier issue of Whatever Magazine!" I was thrown by the lack of some other word preceding "premier". It could have an article like "the" for "the premier issue", or it could have also said "our", as in "our pre...

Any related posts on the fact that definite articles are usually required?

Kit

7:13 PM

@JasperLoy Definitely unlike you, Jasper. You are a really nice, thoughtful person.

@JasperLoy You are very genuine and honest. I like that a lot.

Michael Myers

@simchona Looks like just a bad title. He's wondering about "the premier issue" vs. "our premier issue".

simchona

@MichaelMyers Right now it's just "premier issue"

aedia

@simchona Was just looking at that and trying to find one but no luck yet...

Michael Myers

First paragraph? What first paragraph? I always start with the second.

@simchona By the way, don't just write "@ Michael" or you'll risk incurring the wrath of @MichaelMrozek or any other Michael who's been in the room recently.

simchona

@MichaelMy My bad. I'll just throw out pings like nothin' else

JSBangs

7:16 PM

most of CHAOS has left the room now. evidently they only come for venting

Kit

Phew I almost emailed the project lead with "who's chart" instead of "whose chart." Crisis averted.

Michael Myers

@JSBangs You couldn't see it, but they were all holding fire extinguishers just in case.

Matt Ellen

@Kit you'd have been fired for sure

from here

aedia

With rainbows.

user19161

@JSBangs Now I am really wondering why they came...

Matt Ellen

7:18 PM

fired from a rainbow cannon

aedia

@MattEllen Is that a jinx?

Matt Ellen

no, I was inspired by your answer

Rhodri

@JasperLoy I think they just browse the chats at lunchtime.

What's the collective noun for pitchforks?

z7sg

I'd hate to think they were on here chatting instead of doing important work!

Matt Ellen

@Rhodri um, pitchforks?

user19161

7:19 PM

@Rhodri Bunch?

Matt Ellen

cos like it's the plural

a mob?

@Rhodri a brimstone

A stabbing

@Rhodri but I like to think of them as a coterie

aedia

7:20 PM

A bale

user19161

Even Joel came.

JSBangs

@JasperLoy obviously they were expecting something interesting

aedia

@JSBangs I think I like brimstone the best.

Michael Myers

I wonder if Joel ever knew what happened.

JSBangs

my guess is that Lauren noticed the beginning of the rant and then called everyone over to see the carnage

simchona

7:22 PM

@Rhodri Pitchforkii

Owmen?

Kit

Shh He's sitting right here!

AFK

Cerberus

@JSBangs That was appreciated.

Rhodri

@simchona Shh! Not while @Cerberus is looking :-)

simchona

@Rhodri Are they feminine? Pitchforkae?

Rhodri

@JSBangs A brimstone of pitchforks. I like it.

Cerberus

7:24 PM

@Rhodri bends double from the hit, but recuperates because, hey, they were using symbols of Hades

JSBangs

@Rhodri thanks!

Matt Ellen

@JasperLoy I endeavour to inject some innuendo somewhere each day

user19161

@MattEllen And I intend to correct all spelling errors here I see that are not typos!

Cerberus

Latin furca is feminine, if I am not mistaken.

Matt Ellen

@JasperLoy all my spelling errors are tyops

Cerberus

7:25 PM

Yes, it is.

user19161

@MattEllen Now you are just MSU.

JSBangs

@Cerberus i don't believe there is any exception in Latin to the rule that nouns in -a are feminine, though there are some exceptions to the rule that nouns in -us are masculine

(you knew that, of course. but i was just responding to your response)

Matt Ellen

@JasperLoy but you must know that everything I say is true

Cerberus

@JSBangs There are. Poeta, nauta... they may all be of Greek origin.

Matt Ellen

in some version of the universe

JSBangs

7:27 PM

@Cerberus did not know that

Rhodri

Righty-ho, folks. I should pretend that the work I've done today has been useful, and go home satisfied. Failing that, I should go to sleep :-) See you around.

Cerberus

Scratch sacrilega, I was confused. But the rest are correct.

@JSBangs There are admittedly only a few.

Oh, and don't forget pluralia tantum.

@Rhodri Take care!

user19161

@matt I heard someone was hitting on you, that FB thing.

Kit

@MattEllen I don't understand where this fits. Is this related to a coterie of pitchforks?

JSBangs

@Cerberus pluralia tantum are something else. i implicitly should have added in the singular in my description of words ending in -a

Cerberus

7:29 PM

@JSBangs True.

JSBangs

interestingly, most of the Latin pluralia tantum are reinterpreted as f. sg. in Romance

Cerberus

@JSBangs And "in the nominative".

JSBangs

@Cerberus of course

Matt Ellen

@Kit I was being crude. Jasper said that Joel came

JSBangs

@Kit a brimstone of pitchforks, Kit. Rhodri blessed this usage earlier

Cerberus

7:31 PM

@JSBangs Hmm is that so? I wasn't aware of that.

Kit

@MattEllen What? How did I miss that crassness? I'm getting old.

user19161

@Kit But still pretty.

Cerberus

I know that the sexes of a great many words were mixed up in vulgar Latin and the Romance proto-languages. Could you name a few examples?

Matt Ellen

@Kit Nah, it's just your boss, he put you off your A game

Kit

@JasperLoy Foxy, I am still foxy. You have no idea if I'm pretty.

JSBangs

7:32 PM

@Cerberus L arma > Ro armă, Fr arme, Sp arma, all feminine nouns

Cerberus

Ah... and in French?

Kit

@JSBangs @Rhodri is a wonderful person. If he were a girl, I would make out with him.

Cerberus

Hard to remember, if the article is l'.

JSBangs

@Kit why does he have to be a girl for you to make out with him?

user19161

@Kit Someone with a good heart shines on the outside too. :)

Matt Ellen

7:33 PM

@Cerberus proto-languages sound like they could be superheroes!

JSBangs

@Cerberus i listed French as one of my original examples :)

Cerberus

@MattEllen Well... if you are into embryonic heroes, why not!

Kit

@JSBangs Boys are not part of the arrangement.

Matt Ellen

@Cerberus I think that has potential for a comic book adaptation...

Cerberus

@JSBangs Oh! Stupid, I mislooked. Good examples.

@MattEllen They can sprinkle you with stem cells and have weird tentacles grow from anywhere on your body.

user19161

7:35 PM

@Cerberus Sounds like Medusa!

Matt Ellen

@Cerberus is that heroic though? Maybe these are the villains of the piece. Creating an army of tentacle zombies!

Cerberus

@JSBangs Do you think more neuter words became feminine than masculine? I have always been amazed at how many became feminine from the singular neuter words, though I have never specifically looked at pluralia tantum.

@JasperLoy Yes, she is good, isn't she?

Kit

@Cerberus Reminds me of the Amnion from the Gap series.

@Cerberus Isn't she your sister?

Did we cover that already?

Cerberus

@MattEllen Oh... then perhaps they make helpful organs grow from your body at serendipitous places?

Matt Ellen

I thought the sphinx was Cerb's sister

user19161

7:37 PM

@Cerberus I wouldn't know, since I don't know her physically.

JSBangs

@Cerb i'm looking over some other Latin nouns. I immediately notice hostis > Ro. oaste (f), scala > Ro scară (f). i'd have to look up the other Romance languages, but i believe they follow the same pattern

user19161

@jez Your French proposal is at 80 per cent now. Hot!

Cerberus

@Kit I don't remember, so... I have no idea!

@Kit She smells different.

@JSBangs OK but that is m=> f.

JSBangs

@Cerberus for the most part neuter nouns became masculine in the Romance langs, except for Romanian which preserves the neuter gender (the only modern Romance lang to do so).

Matt Ellen

@Cerberus saving all the children dying from lack of an appendix! Oh, they're so wonderful. How did we ever do without them?

JSBangs

7:39 PM

@Cerb neuter nouns that are pluralia tantum are the only ones that become feminine

Cerberus

@JSBangs Oh I didn't know that pretty cool!

Mana

Hey, did some dramatic stuff happen?

JSBangs

@Cerberus which one is masculine? hostis ?

Cerberus

@JSBangs The only ones? How about musée?

@JSBangs Yes.

user19161

@Mana All the pitchforks came and left without saying much.

user19161

7:40 PM

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan.

Matt Ellen

@Mana Well, some 40 billion years ago the universe exploded

3

Cerberus

@MattEllen See? Beat that, planet-saving Superman!

Matt Ellen

that was pretty dramatic

user19161

@MattEllen And 3 decades ago Matt was born.

JSBangs

@Cerberus musée is masculine. un musée

@MattEllen i thought it was only ~16 billion ya

Matt Ellen

7:40 PM

@JasperLoy LOL so dramatic my dad accidentally the whole thing :D

Cerberus

@JSBangs Oh, seriously! Stupid, I have always assumed that it was feminine. Hmm...

Kit

@MattEllen The rest of the time we've spent waiting for someone to ask a decent question on EL&U.

Matt Ellen

@JSBangs oh yeah! sorry, I get confused between the age and the size

Cerberus

I'm sure there must be exceptions!

JSBangs

@MattEllen @Kit, this seems like a perfect opportunity for some innuendo, but i'm at a loss

Matt Ellen

7:41 PM

@Kit indeed, it's been worth it though :D

Kit

@MattEllen Hey, at least your mom was there.

JSBangs

@Cerberus there probably are, but i can't think of any right off

Matt Ellen

@Kit indeed

my pa was told to go home, as nothing was gonna happen, then he got home and it did.

Cerberus

@JSBangs How about sole? Doesn't that come from solum?

I haven't checked it.

Kit

0

Q: Enumerations and conjunctions "and" and "or"

How do I know if I need to add a comma or not before a conjunction preceeding the last item in an enumeration? For example, which of the following ones is correct? I have a house, a car, a bicycle, and an airplane or I have a house, a car, a bicycle and an airplane Are there any fr...

grammar

Dupe!

Who wants to get it first?

JSBangs

7:45 PM

@Cerberus probably from solum, but what lang is that?

Cerberus

@JSBangs French, but it comes from solea.

Alas.

user19161

@Kit Jinx!

Kit

@JasperLoy No way. I was there first, by far!

user19161

@Kit Luckily I did not put jinx on the main site!

Kit

user19161

7:48 PM

@Kit What's that for? Coke for the loser? And is that Jessica Biel?

Matt Ellen

I think that's cole

what'sername

xfactor lady

Kit

@JasperLoy I don't know. The coke is because you called jinx, and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Matt Ellen

@JasperLoy Cheryl Cole

I sure do know some pointless trivia

user19161

@MattEllen I see, but that does look a bit like Jessica Biel.

FallenAngelEyes

Hey @Cerberus, what's the Dutch word for pins? Like the type that you button on your shirt or something with a logo or saying or whatnot.

Cerberus

7:53 PM

@FallenAngelEyes Button.

@FallenAngelEyes A brooch is a broche.

Kit

Brooch.

Matt Ellen

Damnit, with that message starred, my ignorance will be immortalised for a good week or so

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus Just "button," really?

Cerberus

That is, a button is round object that you pin on your shirt or bag, with some text or picture on it, made of plastic probably.

FallenAngelEyes

Also brooch is a pin, broach is broaching a subject. :)

Right, that's what I mean. Thanks!

Cerberus

7:55 PM

@Kit Oops!

user19161

Poop!

Cerberus

I knew that.

Kit

Must run. TTFN.

Matt Ellen

@Cerberus it is a mistake I made for a long time. Luckily I haven't had to write brooch until just then

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes This is a typical button:

verzamelen.marktplaats.nl/muziek-artiesten-en-beroemdheden/…

Matt Ellen

7:56 PM

cya @Kit. Flirt with some co-eds for me!

Cerberus

@MattEllen It was more like a typo! I know that. Really!

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus Ah, perfect, that's exactly what I meant, thanks much. :)

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes Yeah we use English in weird ways sometimes.

user19161

@Cerberus I believe you, really!

Cerberus

But consider the German word Handy, which is, well, I mean, come on!

@JasperLoy phew

@Kit Later!

Matt Ellen

8:01 PM

I remember how to star my own posts! ★

Cerberus

Pretty!

Matt Ellen

however, this site is lying when it says Alt+2605 will produce it on Windows PCs

fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2605/index.htm

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes Oh, if it is small, you could also call it a speldje, which is also closer to the English word taken literally (speld = needle/pin, depending on context).

FallenAngelEyes

Ah okay.

Cerberus

@MattEllen Yeah I never quite get those numbers... they sometimes seem to mean different things.

Matt Ellen

8:12 PM

@Pierre303 Hi!

Pierre 303

@MattEllen: hi there!

How are you?

Matt Ellen

pretty good :) How are you?

you've strayed from P.SE ;)

Pierre 303

@MattEllen: I clicked on all rooms then people and English Language room was the first in the list. So I clicked ;)

Matt Ellen

@Pierre303 It is a popular room

all of CHAOS were here ealier

Pierre 303

Apparently yes. What the discussions are about here? English language, or it's just an excuse ? ;)

Matt Ellen

8:16 PM

@Pierre303 A little from column A, a lot from column B

to be fair a lot of questions and answers get discussed

about quality and such

but if you look at the starred posts, you'll get a good flavour!

JSBangs

@Pierre303 mostly it's just an excuse. look at our starred comment list. do any of them have to do with english?

simchona

@JSB: Well, they're in English

JSBangs

@simchona even that is not a given in this room

simchona

Ok, they're mostly in English

JSBangs

and note RegDwight's "Ceci n'est pas une cigare"

Pierre 303

8:18 PM

@JSBangs: are you all native english speakers? If the answer is no, you are actually teaching English to people like me ;)

Cerberus

Guess who is and who isn't.

JSBangs

@Pierre303 a lot of people here are pineapples

(pineapple is our code word for people who aren't native speakers)

Cerberus

Non-native speaker = NNS = ananas = pineapple

simchona

He might actually get the reference

Cerberus

Oh.

I'd never ever have got that.

Matt Ellen

8:20 PM

nor me

JSBangs

i shouldn't have explained what pineapple means. it's more fun to let newbies be bewildered

simchona

@Cerberus I'm basing this on the assumption that, with a name like Pierre, he knows "ananas"

Cerberus

Too late, he has been pricked.

simchona

But i've been burned by assumptions in the past

Pierre 303

I get strange pictures when I do a google search on Ceci n'est pas une cigare

;)

Cerberus

8:20 PM

@simchona Hmm... I know ananas (the only word in Dutch), but I never got it, not after hearing it several times.

Matt Ellen

well now I simply must find out!

Cerberus

@Pierre303 Turn on your family filters, safe search, and whatnot.

Pierre 303

Ananas is also the french word for Pineapple

Cerberus

Yeah we probably got it from you.

Matt Ellen

such fraternising!

Hello @Robusto

Robusto

8:24 PM

Hullo.

JSBangs

@Robusto oh, you again

Robusto

Reached another impasse.

aedia

JSBangs

@Robusto with the database? or something else?

FallenAngelEyes

@aedia ...hahahaha

aedia

8:26 PM

@z7sg No sleeping! Where's my afternoon coffee?

JSBangs

@aedia well this is why all pineapples are called pineapples, not just the french ones

Matt Ellen

@aedia LOL. we are the best

Robusto

@JSBangs — It's a minefield. You defuse one mine at a time. Or, more properly, you let others defuse the mines.

FallenAngelEyes

Now I want to know how we ended up with pineapple

aedia

@JSBangs To be fair at least some of these languages have other words for pineapples...

Robusto

8:27 PM

May 4 at 12:44, by Robusto

So we have a new term for non-native speaker: pineapple.

Cerberus

@aedia Possibly so, but not Dutch! At least I can't think of any.

Robusto

Read up from there.

aedia

Piña coladas all round!

Robusto

Jun 18 at 21:35, by Robusto

Non-native speakers => NNS => ennenness [sounds like] => ananas [funny French association] => pineapple

FallenAngelEyes

@Robusto Well, I meant the English language specifically

JSBangs

8:28 PM

@aedia i want to know what the word for pineapple is in Quechua, or whatever the local language is in the place that pineapples are native to

La Wik sez:

> The plant is indigenous to South America and is said to originate from the area between Southern Brazil and Paraguay; however, it is important to note that little is known about the origin of the domesticated pineapple (Pickersgill, 1976). M.S. Bertoni (1919)[14] considered the Paraná–Paraguay River drainages to be the place of origin of A. comosus.[15] The natives of southern Brazil and Paraguay spread the pineapple throughout South America, and it eventually reached the Caribbean.

Matt Ellen

@FallenAngelEyes pineapple it's been this way for sometime, but not sure how

z7sg

@aedia i like that! coffee is on me!

FallenAngelEyes

Huh, interesting.

Robusto

Pineapple meaning "non-native speaker" is a neologism. And a popular one, at least in The Incomprehensible Room. (If I do say so myself.)

aedia

@z7sg sticks face in coffee cup and tries to wake up

Pierre 303

8:31 PM

@aedia: wonderful

Robusto

May 24 at 12:33, by Robusto

"He must say nothing of the fruit that is
Not true, nor think it, less. He must defy
The metaphor that murders metaphor."
— Wallace Stevens, from "Someone Puts a Pineapple Together"

Matt Ellen

@FallenAngelEyes oooo, I've just looked and it turns out, everyone but us adopted the Tupi (South American race) word, but we kept pineapple. pineapple etymology

pineapple was the original European word for pineapple

FallenAngelEyes

@MattEllen Ooooh ok.

Cerberus

@JSBangs If you want, an edition of Pokorny's (1959) can de downloaded on-line: archive.org/details/indogermanisches01pokouoft

Full PDF.

JSBangs

@Cerberus how does that help me with Quechua?

Cerberus

8:38 PM

@JSBangs I'm sorry, I clicked a line of yours at random. It doesn't; just a general tip.

aedia

@Cerberus I feel so uneducated. I don't even know the work you're referring to :'(

Cerberus

@aedia It is the main Proto-Indo-European dictionary of roots.

JSBangs

alright, guys, i'm out for the day. have fun, and see you all tomorrow

aedia

Bye @JSB!

Matt Ellen

cya @JSB

aedia

8:46 PM

Ye olde Wikipedia sayeth the biological classification name Ananas came from the Tupi name, but then in the Tupi page it gives abacaxi = pineapple as the word that survived as a loanword into Portuguese. I am in over my head.

Matt Ellen

@aedia I think both of them survive, based on a simple google translate

translate.google.com/#en|pt|pineapple