@Kit I wish I were as hot as that

be beating them off with a stick.... so to speak

and being female would make the whole thing easier too

@Jez It hurts just thinking about it.

@Jez It hurts just thinking about it.

in fact I'd probably just lie around all day feeling my sexy body up

@Jez It hurts just thinking about it.

@Jez OK, you're killing me here.

do html entities work in here? ←

I guess not

@MattEllen If you are running Windows and aren't on a laptop, Alt+27 will give you a left arrow.

If you are on a laptop, Alt + Fn + K7 will give you a left arrow (on most Windows laptops).

Thanks, @Grace. ← I shall remember. I was also interested in HTML entities in general

it'd be nice to be able to write ψ and get the pitchfork

@Kit Boo, it doesn't work on mine

@GraceNote What's your laptop?

@Kit Sony VAIO, lessee...

Alt + Fn should give you the NumPad...it is there in the little numbers under your right-hand keys?

Oh, real useful. The R-9DH lists her model under properties as "VAIO Computer"

My old VAIO had it.

@Kit I have an attached keyboard with a numpad, and not even that works, NumLock on or off

That's weird. And annoying.

If I don't have numlock on, it apparently counts as "Back". If I have it on, then nothing happens.

@Kit It makes typing ♪ a lot more annoying, too.

Oh, you have a numlock! I don't, so that's why I use the Fn key.

I think there is a bios setting for that. Have you checked it?

hi

everbody

Hi @Kim!

Hi @Kim!

What are you discussing

aobut

@Kit This is the kind of thing I should know how to do, but for one reason or another my brain is refusing to admit it.

@Kim hi! Currently chatting about getting less common characters on the screen through key combos

e.g. alt + (numpad)27 gives ←

☺

♫

13 is ♪. 23-27 are the arrows. 4-7 are card suits.

are alt + (numpad)1 and alt + (numpad)14 respectively

I dont have a numberpad on my laptop

♥♦♣♠

then @Kit's advice can help you!

i never have numlock on

that light just irritates me

I always have numlock on

Are you guys programmers?

this comes from having worked in a call centre and having to enter credit card numbers quickly

why do phones have 1 in the top-left, and keyboards in the bottom-left?

because they like to mess with our minds

@Kim In trade but no longer in occupation.

@Kim I am (meant to be) programming right now!

@Grace What does "In trade" mean?

@Grace you write your own software and sell it?

No, it means that I'm no longer employed as a programmer but I still consider that I qualify as one.

(The phrase as a whole, at any rate)

@Grace sorry about that, I'm not a native speaker

@Kim Don't worry, I probably could've confused a native speaker anyway.

I want my Android

wanna take calls in the car, it'll be good

@Jez your life will be one step closer to completion!

@Jez Because you use your whole hand on a numpad.

@Kim I didn't know what she was talking about either.

Calculators also do 7-in-top-left, aye?

aye

...hm...

@GraceNote There you go calling me an idiot again! ;-)

@Kit No, this time I'm just thinking "How far can I stretch the general overall theme?"

Cash registers, I think.

@Kit is this you inner capitalist shining through?

I do consulting work in the "convenience retail" industry.

I've already gone pretty far with my Area 51 Gravatar (whose actual in-game appearance is a monstrosity that I can't find a linkable image of, inexplicably).

Sort of meta-capitalism, if you think about it.

@Kit by this, you mean you buy stuff? ;-)

By that extent, not all of them are girls, so then that extends, "How fair is it to use one that isn't even truly depicting them as a girl?"

@MattEllen More like "Buy stuff at the gas petrol station."

:D

@GraceNote What does this have to do with NumPads? I got confused.

@Kit It has nothing to do with it. I boarded my own train when I said "hm"

@GraceNote Phew. Thought I had lost my marbles for a minute there.

@Fx You're all blurry. Are you hungover?

HI @F'x - thanks for leaving some low-hanging-fruit this weekend :D

@MattEllen I'm not there much these days

I'm on half-holidays, so I'm either with family and kids, or working

so not much time for EL&U

indeed!

and now, back to work

ciao tutti!

ciao!

Hum. Work. That doesn't sound like a bad idea

Is that a rare animal?

@Cerberus — Yes. Its taxonomic name is laborus horribilis. Actually, it's not that rare, come to think of it. My office is infested with it.

Not labor horribilis?

@Cerberus — I may have misremembered.

Wow, it sounds horrible in any case.

Yeah. Try and avoid it at all costs. It really ruins your life.

Can't you call some exterminators?

@Cerberus — Work is a parasite that lives in symbiosis with its host. If it dies, often the host dies as well.

Aren't symbiotes and parasites non-overlapping, by definition?

@Robusto Symbiosis implies mutual benefit.

@GraceNote I was just starting to write that out.

That is wicked! Cannot you find a more benign parasite to take over its function and oust it?

You beat me to it.

Hehe

I manage to remember some things from Biology class

What do you call the thing when you aren't sure yet whether there is mutual benefit?

symbiosite?

I can make up word!

@Kit — I am aware of that. The parasite labor horribilis excretes a substance known as "money", which sustains the host.

So it is a sort of biological drug?

@MattEllen I'm afraid you need the i!

Symbiote, parasite, what's that other one? There's a third.

@Kit rocks

There's 3 classifications. Parasite, in which the creature is detrimental to the host or takes away from the host; Symbiote, in which the creature is beneficial to the... wow, we're really on the same line here, aren't we, @Kit?

rocks give nothing and take nothing

@MattEllen And the o as well...

@MattEllen giggle

@Cerberus fixerised

Ding!

@GraceNote It's like we're the same person. Want to stalk me yet?

@Kit Gotta try harder

I mean, I have no idea about the biological classifications, but at least words must be well formed.

:D

@GraceNote So what is the third? And why can't I remember it?

@Kit I was about to say "I can't remember the name of the third", but cut off when you beat me to it.

@Cerberus — It can kill you, though.

@GraceNote @Kit mutualism /wiki'd

It's the one that's neither good nor bad, but is just sort of there, right?

@Kit It is when the creature is helped, but the host is neither helped nor harmed, aye

or commenalism

@MattEllen Actually, we're looking for commensalism, if you're going by Wikipedia.

Mutualism would be the 'Benefits both parties" method

@GraceNote For example, mutual mast—um, never mind.

@Robusto Is there no serum or vaccine? Like wealth?

@GraceNote what I would consider regular symbiosis

@MattEllen Indeed

@Kit is that a yachting reference? ;-)

@MattEllen Maybe if it was a fishing boat.

@MattEllen Some might call it that, yes. Man in a little boat and all.

@Cerberus — Yes. But it's very expensive. Most people can't afford it.

Hi @Mana!

@Robusto goddamn pharmas and they're cure hoarding ways

Hi @Grace! How's it going?

Not bad, not bad

@Robusto Cannot the antibodies be inherited?

Awesome. What's going on here today?

Also, how's the new jerb?

@Mana Kinda trying to find out a good objective to work on.

@Mana jaaaoorb?

@Cerberus — Yes, they can. They can pass down through either the father or the mother, curiously enough.

Right now, for the most part, I'm just hanging around to lend a hand to anyone who needs assistance.

@Robusto Well, it looks like an ugly mess in any case.

heh

"an excellent article on ant behaviour" or "an excellent article about ant behaviour" - what's the difference?

the Tories want me to pay loadsa money to the horn of Africa this Ramadan

(in meaning)

> We cannot ignore this appalling situation and I am proud that Britain is leading the way. The government My taxes has already provided over £90 million of aid to the region

how do you strikethru in this stupid chat again?

@Julius I don't think there's really a difference in meaning other than subtleties.

aaa

@Jez like that ^^^

Hmm but 90 million isn't that much.

> The British public have already been incredibly supportive but please, as we enter Ramadan, reach into your pockets and give what you can.

No. Fuck off, Tories, you've already spent shitloads of money for me.

And why do they think mentioning a dumb religious holiday is going to change my mind?

religion results in less birth control which results in too many children which results in people living in deserts which results in death from starvation

@Cerberus 90 million sounds like a lot more than "not that much"

@Jez they do it for Christian ones, so I guess they think "why not?

this is an interesting twist on the usual anti-tory rant

@GraceNote it's probably something like £7 per working person

yeah, they're just populists really.

@GraceNote And yet it is, compared to other aid the British government is no doubt giving?

this is some BS they're doing to look 'charitable'. With my money.

Ah

@MattEllen More like 3.

UK citizens have a pretty damn good excuse not to donate a penny.

But how is this different from other developmental aid, excusez le mot?

i have no idea what they're actually giving it to. but this is different, at least, from the usual complaint that tories are taking the money and giving it to rich capitalists

@Cerberus 30 million working people? that's half of the pop!

including children and pensionners

@JSBangs my complaint about the 'modern' tories is that they're populists. actually, that pretty much applies to all UK parties

they're probably doing it to "look charitable" as you said, and the ramadan connection makes it seem like it's also to pacify the muslim minority

pathetic

@Jez populism is the curse of democracy

yep. I advocate selective suffrage.

@MattEllen In the Netherlands, it is 7 million working people (which includes those who are actively looking for a job but excludes those who pay taxes without working) out of 16 million. But if you think that's too low, your 7 pounds would be even less than 3.

@Cerberus actually, looking at stat's, that's fair enough

employment of 16-64 year olds is 70%

@Jez what would be your grounds for selecting?

@Jez Isn't that inherent in democracy? You will always have lots of populism. But I agree that that is lamentable.

@JSBangs intelligence.

top 20% or something

@MattEllen Hmm it depends on the government's definition of "employed", which can differ quite a bit.

@Jez measured how? standard IQ test?

@JSBangs yep. and I know all the criticisms, i just don't care anymore. all i know is that universal suffrage is shit and we should at least try something else, even if not perfect.

sits comfortably as the discussion runs along a well known path, grabs popcorn

@Cerberus I mean people who pay income tax. I don't know what the stats' definition is!

i wouldn't use that criterion, as intelligence measured by IQ has a low correlation, possibly even a negative correlation, with actual government competence. nonetheless, i agree with the sentiment that universal suffrage is shit.

@MattEllen Ah, ok. Taxpayers?

negative? nonsense

anyway we're talking about intelligence of the voters here, not the candidates.

@JSBangs Shit?

As in, worse than something else you have in mind?

@Cerberus a bad idea, driven by a bad ideology, with bad consequences

Then what is your alternative?

the idea is that more intelligent people would tend to know when they are ignorant about something and either admit it, or learn about it. unintelligent people are more likely to practice 'rational ignorance'

@Cerberus pretty much everyone pays tax, regardless, due to VAT, but income tax is only on money you get and excludes certain things, like gambling

@Cerberus oh, i've thought of lots of them. today let's go with hereditary Taoist theocracy, just for shits and giggles

@Cerberus on a more serious note, any system which encourages a link between political participation and actual responsibility is preferable to a system in which all can participate with no bar at all to entry

@MattEllen Right, good point. I suppose every single person should be included then, but weighted according to the amount they pay yearly?

@Cerberus sounds like a good way to work it out :)

@JSBangs It might be... but give me something more concrete!

Because how will you make political responsibility on the one hand to be something that can be measured objectively, and other other not something that can be faked?

Like singing the national anthem.

I still don't buy a negative correlation between intelligence and competence

(on the phone, will respond shortly)

@Jez i'm not asserting that there is one. i'm just saying that i don't buy the idea of intelligence being the criterion

well, i've not really heard any people whom I'd define as intelligent espousing moronic opinions politically

OTOH i've heard bunch of people whom I'd define as cretinous doing so

that's my evidence

@Jez selection bias

i suppose there are some devious pricks on the far right in US politics who are intelligent too.

shame we cant just cull them

@Jez that right there is far more moronic that anything i've heard from me 80-IQ postman lately

you are now exhibit A on why i don't want the intelligent running the country

I don't think there is a solution.

what, because of a joke? ha

well done

Churchill got it right.

Although I suppose a somewhat less democratic system could be devised with the right stimuli at the right places.

@Cerberus back to your serious question, i'd suggest that we start by limiting voting rights to married landowners, as a somewhat-decent proxy for responsibility

(both husband and wife)

there are problems with that, of course, as there are problems with everything

Are you serious?

@Cerberus about as serious as i am about anything

Cletus and Cletusella

they're probably married and own a shack

Then let me point out a few weaknesses.

@Jez i know a couple of people that you would probably describe this way that i would much rather have voting for the future of the country than your cadre of intellectuals

Magus uses dark-type magic, so you want to use Light, @Cerberus

1. I'd marry a random person and buy a bit of worthless land somewhere, then. 2. The country would be governed by extreme conservatives if landownership remained as it is now.

I can't think of any other weaknesses.

@Cerberus neither of these are downsides

@JSBangs and they don't vote for idiots?

@JSBangs I think they are.

@Cerberus actually, the most important weakness that i see is that it excludes the large number of responsible urban apartment dwellers

@Mana Except Magus changes his magical defense every so often

@JSBangs That falls under 2.

BUT i have to go to a meeting right now, so i'll be back in ~15min

@Mana Eh, who? Where? ducks

TBH, the most straightforward way to fix things is just to let me run them

OK bye!

@Grace Oh, right. Damn, I haven't played that game in forever!

@Mana Forever is too long!

clearly

What game are you people talking about!

@Cerberus Chrono Trigger, which is where JSBang's avatar comes from

Chrono Trigger. It's the game from whence JSBang's avatar came.

Magus always sounded too close to Maggot for me

Ah! I have never played that, but it sounds familiar. Is it a cousin of Mystic Quest?

sips tea

@Cerberus nope, it's a one-of-a-kind for the SNES

OK.

And it is good?

@Cerberus Same company, just different game.

yep

But does it resemble MQ at all?

It's generally heralded as one of the best SNES RPGs. It's definitely worth at least looking into

@Cerberus Pretty much... no.

Oh.

So no turn-based battles?

they are turn based

Larger sprites, different style of world travel, battle system is different and active-time, your character party setup is different, enemies don't show damage like in Mystic Quest, you can't jump but you aren't restricted to tile movement...

and you can actually see the enemies fighting properly, unlike in FF where they just slash at mid-air :-)

Ah...

What is "active-time"?

@Cerberus Basically, in Mystic Quest, you input your commands for your character (and your partner, provided you have one and s/he isn't set to auto) before the "turn" starts, correct?

In Chrono Trigger, time "passes" during a battle, during which an action bar fills. When it is up for one of your characters, you can input a command and they'll perform it then and there, provided there isn't a whole queue of actions coming from everyone else.

@GraceNote You mean I cannot have one person damage the enemy and base my decision for my second person on the outcome?

It's basically, instead of pre assigning commands at the start, you basically act in the turn order that your speed dictates.

Ah, OK.

Chrono Trigger is good because the leveling up isn't stupid

So, action points.

@Cerberus Well, in Mystic Quest, if you set your ally to Auto, then s/he cheats and can.

you do it, but quite naturally, and by the end of the game your trio is frigging deadly

making Lavos a bit easy

Are the battles hard?

not really, in the scheme of things

Hmm.

I am the worst person to ask that kind of question

I like difficult battles.

i like average difficulty battles

What I thought was also cool about Chrono Trigger's battle system was the way your enemies moved during a battle, so you could wait for your enemies to line up and then use a slashing shockwave move to hit all of them at once, even though you're only targeting one enemy

But I likes ones that are relatively short, not doing 11 damage to a 1000-hp enemy.

@Mana I like the triple-tech moves :-)

@Cerberus I don't think you generally run into marathon fights like that, to my recollection.

OK.

except for lavos.

that's actually 3 'bosses' in a row, but all quite beatable

@Jez i found that once you level up your characters enough, it's actually more effective to have them all attack separately, because you otherwise waste to much time waiting for all 3 to fill their action bar

yo man, watch those spoilers

@JSBangs but the trio attacks look way cooler

Have you played Sonny 2, a flash game? It actually has one of the best battle systems I have ever played.

@Jez this is true

@JSBangs Who cares about effectiveness? TRIPLE RAID

It doesn't matter that Triple Raid is inferior to 3D Attack. It's Triple Raid.

when i was power-leveling i just put Haste Helm + Berserker Ring on everybody and let the battles fight themselves

the other one you cant beat at the end is that guy at the End Of Time

he gets insanely powerful

@Jez oh, yeah. he's close to unbeatable at several points

@Cerb do you have an idea for selective suffrage that's better than the ones offered so far? or are you a universal suffragist?

@JSBangs I see no better alternative at the moment, though I haven't given the matter that much thought. It seems the lesser evil: any form of selective suffrage would need to have meaningful criteria that are very easy to check.

And that do not have adverse side-effects.

Peasants do not seem to be the kind of electorate I'd want. Not at all.

s/Peasants/idiots/

another interesting option that I thought of is to have universal suffrage, but allow votes to be permanently saleable. this would allow votes to accrue to those who are interested and motivated, while the less-interested masses could just sell their votes off for cash

i don't necessarily support this view, but it is an interesting idea

@Cerberus i am pro-peasant. this may be the biggest difference between me and the rest of you

That is the ultimate form of corruption: all power goes to money.

@JSBangs you pretty much have that situation now. more money = more influence.

(in the US anyway)

@Cerberus power = money is an invariant in every political system ever

locking in a system of IQ-based voting rights at least has a chance of avoiding money = power

@JSBangs power being proportional to money and power being money are not the same

@Jez money still comes into it. CEOs are almost all certainly in your voting block, for example, and you still have to spend money to influence the voting pool

are you that sure CEOs are in the top 20%? i doubt it

@MattEllen then let me amend to power ∝ money :)

@JSBangs and I'm not pro government

@JSBangs I am not saying peasants have no good qualities. They do. But look at the influence of their lobbies in Europe and America now: not good for us, not good for the rest of the world. I am thinking of the countless multi-resistant bacteria that they breed, the costs of our paying for a dying occupation, and the dumping of cheap food on the rest of the world, slowing down African development.

@JSBangs The idea of democracy is that those with most power tend to exploit those with less power, and that other might make better decisions for the commonwealth.

@Jez i'm quite sure of it. it takes smarts to run a big company. probably not 100% of CEOs will be voters under your system, but the majority of them will be

countless multi-resistant bacteria?

@JSBangs anyway that's a very small percentage of the population. so not much influence

the real influence lies in bribing unintelligent people

take away the unintelligent, and even if you get one real vote, that's very little

@Jez you assume that the intelligent are un-bribeable. this is an unfounded assumption

im assuming they might think more carefully yes

I don't think there are many intellectuals in big business. The many I know aren't.

@Jez given that half the population have 100 IQ points or over, what is your line in the sand, as it were?

@Cerberus but Jez didn't say "intellectuals". he said top 20% by IQ

oh

and not just bribery, actually. what about money used indirectly to influence people through fearmongering?

this is a much larger group than just self-identified "intellectuals"

intelligent people are less likely to fall for that.

direct bribery is way more expensive

@JSBangs Yes, but I was responding to your CEOs (I think).

@Jez indirect bribery (subsidies, gov't-funded privileges) still works.

if only the top 20% could vote, would the governor of Texas be holding a rally to pray away the problems?

@JasperLoy I'm not sure he is an intellectual. He might be? Or he might just be a geek.

@Cerberus and my argument is that most CEOs are in the top 20%

@JSBangs at least they are tangible benefits. not imaginary nonsense.

@JSBangs Well, don't we already have the top 20 % governing the country in effect?

i mean they would be benefitting a bunch of people

@JSBangs Surely the more important question is: are the top 20% money grubbing?

Would voting powers change that much?

@Cerberus I don't think the top 20% run the country.

@Jez more like less than the top 1%

@Jez i'd bet that close to 100% of current members of congress are also in the top 20%

@Jez If you look at IQ tests?

congress? haha!