English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

I've already gone pretty far with my Area 51 Gravatar (whose actual in-game appearance is a monstrosity that I can't find a linkable image of, inexplicably).

Kit

Sort of meta-capitalism, if you think about it.

Matt Ellen

@Kit by this, you mean you buy stuff? ;-)

Grace Note

12:59 PM

By that extent, not all of them are girls, so then that extends, "How fair is it to use one that isn't even truly depicting them as a girl?"

Kit

@MattEllen More like "Buy stuff at the ~~gas~~ petrol station."

Matt Ellen

:D

Kit

@GraceNote What does this have to do with NumPads? I got confused.

Grace Note

@Kit It has nothing to do with it. I boarded my own train when I said "hm"

Kit

@GraceNote Phew. Thought I had lost my marbles for a minute there.

@Fx You're all blurry. Are you hungover?

Matt Ellen

1:03 PM

HI @F'x - thanks for leaving some low-hanging-fruit this weekend :D

F'x

1:18 PM

@MattEllen I'm not there much these days

I'm on half-holidays, so I'm either with family and kids, or working

so not much time for EL&U

Matt Ellen

indeed!

F'x

and now, back to work

ciao tutti!

Matt Ellen

ciao!

Grace Note

Hum. Work. That doesn't sound like a bad idea

Cerberus

1:34 PM

Is that a rare animal?

Robusto

@Cerberus — Yes. Its taxonomic name is laborus horribilis. Actually, it's not that rare, come to think of it. My office is infested with it.

Cerberus

Not labor horribilis?

Robusto

@Cerberus — I may have misremembered.

Cerberus

Wow, it sounds horrible in any case.

Robusto

Yeah. Try and avoid it at all costs. It really ruins your life.

Cerberus

1:36 PM

Can't you call some exterminators?

Robusto

@Cerberus — Work is a parasite that lives in symbiosis with its host. If it dies, often the host dies as well.

Grace Note

Aren't symbiotes and parasites non-overlapping, by definition?

Kit

@Robusto Symbiosis implies mutual benefit.

@GraceNote I was just starting to write that out.

Cerberus

That is wicked! Cannot you find a more benign parasite to take over its function and oust it?

Kit

You beat me to it.

Grace Note

1:38 PM

Hehe

I manage to remember some things from Biology class

Cerberus

What do you call the thing when you aren't sure yet whether there is mutual benefit?

Matt Ellen

symbiosite?

I can make up word!

Robusto

@Kit — I am aware of that. The parasite labor horribilis excretes a substance known as "money", which sustains the host.

Cerberus

So it is a sort of biological drug?

@MattEllen I'm afraid you need the i!

Kit

Symbiote, parasite, what's that other one? There's a third.

Matt Ellen

1:40 PM

@Kit rocks

Grace Note

There's 3 classifications. Parasite, in which the creature is detrimental to the host or takes away from the host; Symbiote, in which the creature is beneficial to the... wow, we're really on the same line here, aren't we, @Kit?

Matt Ellen

rocks give nothing and take nothing

Cerberus

@MattEllen And the o as well...

Kit

@MattEllen giggle

Matt Ellen

@Cerberus fixerised

Cerberus

1:41 PM

Ding!

Kit

@GraceNote It's like we're the same person. Want to stalk me yet?

Grace Note

@Kit Gotta try harder

Cerberus

I mean, I have no idea about the biological classifications, but at least words must be well formed.

Matt Ellen

:D

Kit

@GraceNote So what is the third? And why can't I remember it?

Grace Note

1:43 PM

@Kit I was about to say "I can't remember the name of the third", but cut off when you beat me to it.

Robusto

@Cerberus — It can kill you, though.

Matt Ellen

@GraceNote @Kit mutualism /wiki'd

Kit

It's the one that's neither good nor bad, but is just sort of there, right?

Grace Note

@Kit It is when the creature is helped, but the host is neither helped nor harmed, aye

Matt Ellen

or commenalism

Grace Note

1:44 PM

@MattEllen Actually, we're looking for commensalism, if you're going by Wikipedia.

Mutualism would be the 'Benefits both parties" method

Kit

@GraceNote For example, mutual mast—um, never mind.

Cerberus

@Robusto Is there no serum or vaccine? Like wealth?

Matt Ellen

@GraceNote what I would consider regular symbiosis

Grace Note

@MattEllen Indeed

Matt Ellen

@Kit is that a yachting reference? ;-)

Grace Note

1:46 PM

@MattEllen Maybe if it was a fishing boat.

Kit

@MattEllen Some might call it that, yes. Man in a little boat and all.

Robusto

@Cerberus — Yes. But it's very expensive. Most people can't afford it.

Grace Note

Hi @Mana!

Matt Ellen

@Robusto goddamn pharmas and they're cure hoarding ways

Mana

Hi @Grace! How's it going?

Grace Note

1:47 PM

Not bad, not bad

Cerberus

@Robusto Cannot the antibodies be inherited?

Mana

Awesome. What's going on here today?

Also, how's the new jerb?

Grace Note

@Mana Kinda trying to find out a good objective to work on.

Matt Ellen

@Mana jaaaoorb?

Robusto

@Cerberus — Yes, they can. They can pass down through either the father or the mother, curiously enough.

Grace Note

1:52 PM

Right now, for the most part, I'm just hanging around to lend a hand to anyone who needs assistance.

Cerberus

@Robusto Well, it looks like an ugly mess in any case.

Jez

heh

Julius

"an excellent article on ant behaviour" or "an excellent article about ant behaviour" - what's the difference?

Jez

the Tories want me to pay loadsa money to the horn of Africa this Ramadan

Julius

(in meaning)

Jez

2:02 PM

> We cannot ignore this appalling situation and I am proud that Britain is leading the way. ~~The government~~ My taxes has already provided over £90 million of aid to the region

how do you strikethru in this stupid chat again?

Grace Note

@Julius I don't think there's really a difference in meaning other than subtleties.

Jez

~~aaa~~

Matt Ellen

@Jez like that ^^^

Cerberus

Hmm but 90 million isn't that much.

Jez

> The British public have already been incredibly supportive but please, as we enter Ramadan, reach into your pockets and give what you can.

No. Fuck off, Tories, you've already spent shitloads of money for me.

And why do they think mentioning a dumb religious holiday is going to change my mind?

religion results in less birth control which results in too many children which results in people living in deserts which results in death from starvation

Grace Note

2:06 PM

@Cerberus 90 million sounds like a lot more than "not that much"

Matt Ellen

@Jez they do it for Christian ones, so I guess they think "why not?

JSBangs

this is an interesting twist on the usual anti-tory rant

Matt Ellen

@GraceNote it's probably something like £7 per working person

Jez

yeah, they're just populists really.

Cerberus

@GraceNote And yet it is, compared to other aid the British government is no doubt giving?

Jez

2:07 PM

this is some BS they're doing to look 'charitable'. With my money.

Grace Note

Ah

Cerberus

@MattEllen More like 3.

Jez

UK citizens have a pretty damn good excuse not to donate a penny.

Cerberus

But how is this different from other developmental aid, excusez le mot?

JSBangs

i have no idea what they're actually giving it to. but this is different, at least, from the usual complaint that tories are taking the money and giving it to rich capitalists

Matt Ellen

2:08 PM

@Cerberus 30 million working people? that's half of the pop!

including children and pensionners

Jez

@JSBangs my complaint about the 'modern' tories is that they're populists. actually, that pretty much applies to all UK parties

JSBangs

they're probably doing it to "look charitable" as you said, and the ramadan connection makes it seem like it's also to pacify the muslim minority

Jez

pathetic

JSBangs

@Jez populism is the curse of democracy

Jez

yep. I advocate selective suffrage.

Cerberus

2:10 PM

@MattEllen In the Netherlands, it is 7 million working people (which includes those who are actively looking for a job but excludes those who pay taxes without working) out of 16 million. But if you think that's too low, your 7 pounds would be even less than 3.

Matt Ellen

@Cerberus actually, looking at stat's, that's fair enough

employment of 16-64 year olds is 70%

JSBangs

@Jez what would be your grounds for selecting?

Cerberus

@Jez Isn't that inherent in democracy? You will always have lots of populism. But I agree that that is lamentable.

Jez

@JSBangs intelligence.

top 20% or something

Cerberus

@MattEllen Hmm it depends on the government's definition of "employed", which can differ quite a bit.

JSBangs

2:12 PM

@Jez measured how? standard IQ test?

Jez

@JSBangs yep. and I know all the criticisms, i just don't care anymore. all i know is that universal suffrage is shit and we should at least try something else, even if not perfect.

Cerberus

sits comfortably as the discussion runs along a well known path, grabs popcorn

Matt Ellen

@Cerberus I mean people who pay income tax. I don't know what the stats' definition is!

JSBangs

i wouldn't use that criterion, as intelligence measured by IQ has a low correlation, possibly even a negative correlation, with actual government competence. nonetheless, i agree with the sentiment that universal suffrage is shit.

Cerberus

@MattEllen Ah, ok. Taxpayers?

Jez

2:13 PM

negative? nonsense

anyway we're talking about intelligence of the voters here, not the candidates.

Cerberus

@JSBangs Shit?

As in, worse than something else you have in mind?

JSBangs

@Cerberus a bad idea, driven by a bad ideology, with bad consequences

Cerberus

Then what is your alternative?

Jez

the idea is that more intelligent people would tend to know when they are ignorant about something and either admit it, or learn about it. unintelligent people are more likely to practice 'rational ignorance'

Matt Ellen

@Cerberus pretty much everyone pays tax, regardless, due to VAT, but income tax is only on money you get and excludes certain things, like gambling

JSBangs

2:14 PM

@Cerberus oh, i've thought of lots of them. today let's go with hereditary Taoist theocracy, just for shits and giggles

@Cerberus on a more serious note, any system which encourages a link between political participation and actual responsibility is preferable to a system in which all can participate with no bar at all to entry

Cerberus

@MattEllen Right, good point. I suppose every single person should be included then, but weighted according to the amount they pay yearly?

Matt Ellen

@Cerberus sounds like a good way to work it out :)

Cerberus

@JSBangs It might be... but give me something more concrete!

Because how will you make political responsibility on the one hand to be something that can be measured objectively, and other other not something that can be faked?

Like singing the national anthem.

Jez

I still don't buy a negative correlation between intelligence and competence

JSBangs

(on the phone, will respond shortly)

@Jez i'm not asserting that there is one. i'm just saying that i don't buy the idea of intelligence being the criterion

Jez

2:23 PM

well, i've not really heard any people whom I'd define as intelligent espousing moronic opinions politically

OTOH i've heard bunch of people whom I'd define as cretinous doing so

that's my evidence

JSBangs

@Jez selection bias

Jez

i suppose there are some devious pricks on the far right in US politics who are intelligent too.

shame we cant just cull them

JSBangs

@Jez that right there is far more moronic that anything i've heard from me 80-IQ postman lately

you are now exhibit A on why i don't want the intelligent running the country

Cerberus

I don't think there is a solution.

Jez

what, because of a joke? ha

well done

Cerberus

2:25 PM

Churchill got it right.

Although I suppose a somewhat less democratic system could be devised with the right stimuli at the right places.

JSBangs

@Cerberus back to your serious question, i'd suggest that we start by limiting voting rights to married landowners, as a somewhat-decent proxy for responsibility

(both husband and wife)

there are problems with that, of course, as there are problems with everything

Cerberus

Are you serious?

JSBangs

@Cerberus about as serious as i am about anything

Jez

Cletus and Cletusella

they're probably married and own a shack

Cerberus

Then let me point out a few weaknesses.

JSBangs

2:29 PM

@Jez i know a couple of people that you would probably describe this way that i would much rather have voting for the future of the country than your cadre of intellectuals

Mana

Magus uses dark-type magic, so you want to use Light, @Cerberus

Cerberus

1. I'd marry a random person and buy a bit of worthless land somewhere, then. 2. The country would be governed by extreme conservatives if landownership remained as it is now.

Mana

I can't think of any other weaknesses.

JSBangs

@Cerberus neither of these are downsides

Jez

@JSBangs and they don't vote for idiots?

Cerberus

2:30 PM

@JSBangs I think they are.

JSBangs

@Cerberus actually, the most important weakness that i see is that it excludes the large number of responsible urban apartment dwellers

Grace Note

@Mana Except Magus changes his magical defense every so often

Cerberus

@JSBangs That falls under 2.

JSBangs

BUT i have to go to a meeting right now, so i'll be back in ~15min

Cerberus

@Mana Eh, who? Where? ducks

Jez

2:31 PM

TBH, the most straightforward way to fix things is just to let me run them

Cerberus

OK bye!

Mana

@Grace Oh, right. Damn, I haven't played that game in forever!

Grace Note

@Mana Forever is too long!

Mana

clearly

Cerberus

What game are you people talking about!

Grace Note

2:32 PM

@Cerberus Chrono Trigger, which is where JSBang's avatar comes from

Mana

Chrono Trigger. It's the game from whence JSBang's avatar came.

Jez

Magus always sounded too close to Maggot for me

Cerberus

Ah! I have never played that, but it sounds familiar. Is it a cousin of Mystic Quest?

Mana

sips tea

Jez

@Cerberus nope, it's a one-of-a-kind for the SNES

Cerberus

2:33 PM

OK.

And it is good?

Grace Note

@Cerberus Same company, just different game.

Jez

yep

Cerberus

But does it resemble MQ at all?

Grace Note

It's generally heralded as one of the best SNES RPGs. It's definitely worth at least looking into

@Cerberus Pretty much... no.

Cerberus

Oh.

So no turn-based battles?

Jez

2:34 PM

they are turn based

Grace Note

Larger sprites, different style of world travel, battle system is different and active-time, your character party setup is different, enemies don't show damage like in Mystic Quest, you can't jump but you aren't restricted to tile movement...

Jez

and you can actually see the enemies fighting properly, unlike in FF where they just slash at mid-air :-)

Cerberus

Ah...

What is "active-time"?

user19161

@Mana Looks at Mana suspiciously.

Grace Note

@Cerberus Basically, in Mystic Quest, you input your commands for your character (and your partner, provided you have one and s/he isn't set to auto) before the "turn" starts, correct?

In Chrono Trigger, time "passes" during a battle, during which an action bar fills. When it is up for one of your characters, you can input a command and they'll perform it then and there, provided there isn't a whole queue of actions coming from everyone else.

Cerberus

2:37 PM

@GraceNote You mean I cannot have one person damage the enemy and base my decision for my second person on the outcome?

Grace Note

It's basically, instead of pre assigning commands at the start, you basically act in the turn order that your speed dictates.

Cerberus

Ah, OK.

Jez

Chrono Trigger is good because the leveling up isn't stupid

Cerberus

So, action points.

Grace Note

@Cerberus Well, in Mystic Quest, if you set your ally to Auto, then s/he cheats and can.

Jez

2:37 PM

you do it, but quite naturally, and by the end of the game your trio is frigging deadly

making Lavos a bit easy

Cerberus

Are the battles hard?

Jez

not really, in the scheme of things

Cerberus

Hmm.

Grace Note

I am the worst person to ask that kind of question

Cerberus

I like difficult battles.

Jez

2:38 PM

i like average difficulty battles

Mana

What I thought was also cool about Chrono Trigger's battle system was the way your enemies moved during a battle, so you could wait for your enemies to line up and then use a slashing shockwave move to hit all of them at once, even though you're only targeting one enemy

Cerberus

But I likes ones that are relatively short, not doing 11 damage to a 1000-hp enemy.

Jez

@Mana I like the triple-tech moves :-)

Grace Note

@Cerberus I don't think you generally run into marathon fights like that, to my recollection.

Cerberus

OK.

Jez

2:40 PM

except for lavos.

that's actually 3 'bosses' in a row, but all quite beatable

JSBangs

@Jez i found that once you level up your characters enough, it's actually more effective to have them all attack separately, because you otherwise waste to much time waiting for all 3 to fill their action bar

Mana

yo man, watch those spoilers

Jez

@JSBangs but the trio attacks look way cooler

Cerberus

Have you played Sonny 2, a flash game? It actually has one of the best battle systems I have ever played.

JSBangs

@Jez this is true

Grace Note

2:41 PM

@JSBangs Who cares about effectiveness? TRIPLE RAID

It doesn't matter that Triple Raid is inferior to 3D Attack. It's Triple Raid.

JSBangs

when i was power-leveling i just put Haste Helm + Berserker Ring on everybody and let the battles fight themselves

Jez

the other one you cant beat at the end is that guy at the End Of Time

he gets insanely powerful

JSBangs

@Jez oh, yeah. he's close to unbeatable at several points

@Cerb do you have an idea for selective suffrage that's better than the ones offered so far? or are you a universal suffragist?

Cerberus

@JSBangs I see no better alternative at the moment, though I haven't given the matter that much thought. It seems the lesser evil: any form of selective suffrage would need to have meaningful criteria that are very easy to check.

And that do not have adverse side-effects.

Peasants do not seem to be the kind of electorate I'd want. Not at all.

Jez

s/Peasants/idiots/

JSBangs

2:50 PM

another interesting option that I thought of is to have universal suffrage, but allow votes to be permanently saleable. this would allow votes to accrue to those who are interested and motivated, while the less-interested masses could just sell their votes off for cash

i don't necessarily support this view, but it is an interesting idea

@Cerberus i am pro-peasant. this may be the biggest difference between me and the rest of you

Cerberus

That is the ultimate form of corruption: all power goes to money.

Jez

@JSBangs you pretty much have that situation now. more money = more influence.

(in the US anyway)

JSBangs

@Cerberus power = money is an invariant in every political system ever

Jez

locking in a system of IQ-based voting rights at least has a chance of avoiding money = power

Matt Ellen

@JSBangs power being proportional to money and power being money are not the same

JSBangs

2:53 PM

@Jez money still comes into it. CEOs are almost all certainly in your voting block, for example, and you still have to spend money to influence the voting pool

Jez

are you that sure CEOs are in the top 20%? i doubt it

JSBangs

@MattEllen then let me amend to power ∝ money :)

Matt Ellen

@JSBangs and I'm not pro government

Cerberus

@JSBangs I am not saying peasants have no good qualities. They do. But look at the influence of their lobbies in Europe and America now: not good for us, not good for the rest of the world. I am thinking of the countless multi-resistant bacteria that they breed, the costs of our paying for a dying occupation, and the dumping of cheap food on the rest of the world, slowing down African development.

@JSBangs The idea of democracy is that those with most power tend to exploit those with less power, and that other might make better decisions for the commonwealth.

JSBangs

@Jez i'm quite sure of it. it takes smarts to run a big company. probably not 100% of CEOs will be voters under your system, but the majority of them will be

Jez

2:54 PM

countless multi-resistant bacteria?

@JSBangs anyway that's a very small percentage of the population. so not much influence

the real influence lies in bribing unintelligent people

take away the unintelligent, and even if you get one real vote, that's very little

JSBangs

@Jez you assume that the intelligent are un-bribeable. this is an unfounded assumption

Jez

im assuming they might think more carefully yes

Cerberus

I don't think there are many intellectuals in big business. The many I know aren't.

Matt Ellen

@Jez given that half the population have 100 IQ points or over, what is your line in the sand, as it were?

JSBangs

@Cerberus but Jez didn't say "intellectuals". he said top 20% by IQ

Matt Ellen

2:57 PM

oh

Jez

and not just bribery, actually. what about money used indirectly to influence people through fearmongering?

user19161

@Cerberus Bill Gates?

JSBangs

this is a much larger group than just self-identified "intellectuals"

Jez

intelligent people are less likely to fall for that.

direct bribery is way more expensive

user19161

@JSBangs Or maybe 99 percentile.

Cerberus

2:57 PM

@JSBangs Yes, but I was responding to your CEOs (I think).

JSBangs

@Jez indirect bribery (subsidies, gov't-funded privileges) still works.

Jez

if only the top 20% could vote, would the governor of Texas be holding a rally to pray away the problems?

Cerberus

@JasperLoy I'm not sure he is an intellectual. He might be? Or he might just be a geek.

JSBangs

@Cerberus and my argument is that most CEOs are in the top 20%

Jez

@JSBangs at least they are tangible benefits. not imaginary nonsense.

Cerberus

2:58 PM

@JSBangs Well, don't we already have the top 20 % governing the country in effect?

Jez

i mean they would be benefitting a bunch of people

Matt Ellen

@JSBangs Surely the more important question is: are the top 20% money grubbing?

Cerberus

Would voting powers change that much?

Jez

@Cerberus I don't think the top 20% run the country.

Matt Ellen

@Jez more like less than the top 1%

JSBangs

2:59 PM

@Jez i'd bet that close to 100% of current members of congress are also in the top 20%

Jez

@Cerberus I think a combination of ultra-rich and legions of semiliterate grunts do, which is not the same

Cerberus

@Jez If you look at IQ tests?

Jez

congress? haha!

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