English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

11:00 PM

Those who want it to be Coca-Cola at all times are not native speakers of Russian. Heck, they are not speakers of Russian, period.

user19161

I missed that one...

Vitaly

Cerberus

So...

RegDwight

They have that brand-book lying in Seattle that says "our holy name is X".

Cerberus

Well, do you find that so odd?

RegDwight

11:01 PM

And even if native speakers adapt the name to the rules of their language, screw them. That is prescriptivism.

Cerberus

@rumtscho GBS?

bracho monacho

It must be the titty effect... Mention breasts, boobies, bresticles, whatever, and everyone suddenly pays attention.

RegDwight

@Cerberus I don't find it odd, but I find it moronic to hold onto that after it's been explained to you that not all languages work the same way.

Cerberus

@JasperLoy Depends on your definition of gay.

rumtscho

@Cerberus George Bernard Shaw. (sorry, too lazy to type).

user19161

11:02 PM

Here a lot of people frown on homosexuality, but that is changing. The law that prohibits gay sex is still in force though it is not enforced.

rumtscho

@brachomonacho Should I star this for you?

Cerberus

@brachomonacho Yeah, that's what I thought; so for one moment I thought you were a girl again. The suspense is killing!

z7sg

Did someone say 'titty'?

Cerberus

Hullo!

Ah, that GBS!

user19161

@z7sg Hello, we have been talking about gays...

RegDwight

11:03 PM

You come to China to sell your sugar water, you better know how Chinese language works.

bracho monacho

@rumtscho If you like, I don't think I've ever been starred before.

rumtscho

Hmm. And Jeff insists there is no @all mechanism in chat. Obviously, we have now found where it's hidden.

Cerberus

@RegDwight Wait, what do you mean? Foreign companies force Russian people?

RegDwight

And the funny thing is, in China they have adapted their brand name, or so I'm told.

Grace Note

Oop ain't oops

user19161

11:04 PM

@rumtscho It's hidden in the boobs. That's why we call them boobie traps.

Grace Note

"Oops" would indicate an error or mistake.

bracho monacho

@Cerberus Well, just for the record, I am a girl. Always have been, always will be.

z7sg

Today has been ... GBS? Today has been the busiest day I have ever seen on ELU chat... we have all kinds of animal as usual so I guess it must be because the topic of the day is titty.

RegDwight

@Cerberus Yes. They bombard people with ungrammatical billboards and TV commercials.

rumtscho

@brachomonacho Well, if it nobody stars it, it's almost like the theory was wrong---

RegDwight

11:05 PM

They actually say things such as "Пей Кока-Кола!"

rumtscho

@z7sg All kinds? We only had narwhals and bieber so far.

RegDwight

Even a toddler knows that that is wrong.

Cerberus

@brachomonacho Ah! Well, that is clear enough!

Grace Note

Clear answers always make things so much easier.

RegDwight

No native speaker would ever use a nominative where accusative is in order.

Cerberus

11:05 PM

Wrong case?

Ah.

That would seem pretty terrible.

RegDwight

And it is.

It grates on the ears.

Everyone is either cringing or laughing.

z7sg

@rumtscho Narwhals aren't real. They don't exist.

RegDwight

Or both.

Cerberus

But prescriptivism means telling other people what to do. Disliking things others write is the basis of prescriptivism. With which, I firmly believe, there is nothing wrong.

z7sg

It's like the sea creatures saw a unicorn one day and fantasized that there was a marine equivalent!

Complete nonsense of course.

Grace Note

11:07 PM

It's like I stepped back in time, except instead of actual history it's a repetition of events with different actors.

aedia

@brachomonacho I highly recommend Lise Eliot's *Pink Brain, Blue Brain" or Cordelia Fine's Delusions of Gender. Really made me think about how much of this stuff is socially constructed. Before, I would think "I'm a tomboy, I'm not a normal girl" and I didn't even notice I was implicitly saying that being a girl was bad.

user19161

@z7sg They do. Ubuntu 11.04 is the Natty Narwhal.

Cerberus

@GraceNote It is like a fractal with subtly changing colours.

z7sg

What time is it there? I should be in bed already!

Grace Note

@JasperLoy Argh, don't remind me of that.

rumtscho

11:08 PM

@z7sg now if you're going to tell us that you are @brachomonacho 's ex, please wait. I want to get some popcorn first, before the scene starts unraveling before my eyes.

bracho monacho

My comment doesn't count, though, because it isn't structured in such a way that you would look at it and say "wtf?" if you weren't aware of the context.
We would need to goad Kit into another booby comment to verify the theory.

rumtscho

@z7sg If you live in the Atlantic ocean or east of it, then probably yes.

Grace Note

I live... very far east of the Atlantic...

z7sg

@JasperLoy How many damn release cycles I gotta wait before we get to Ultramagical Unicorn?

RegDwight

Look. A Russian company comes to the Netherlands and insists that henceforth your country is called Gollandiya. Not in Russian, in Dutch. That is the correct name for your country in your language they say. Everything else is wrong. And then the Dutch people collectively laugh at them and ignore them. Who is the prescriptivist -- the company or the Dutch?

user19161

11:10 PM

From talking to my various gay friends, I would say it is probably in the genes...

aedia

@z7sg I knowww!

Grace Note

@JasperLoy Homosexuality, you mean?

z7sg

@rumtscho The Atlantic ocean is about 200 miles to the West I believe.

rumtscho

@GraceNote Then you should have been in bed... very long ago before now (like 3/4 day)

user19161

@GraceNote Yes, indeed.

Cerberus

11:11 PM

@RegDwight In as much as they tell me to use their version, they are prescriptivist. In as much as I see them use it and comment on their usage, I am prescriptivist.

z7sg

@rumtscho @brachomonacho is a girl then right? it's a little confusing with the LGBT stuff flying around right now

RegDwight

@Cerberus But then every commentator is a prescriptivist. By definition.

In which case there's no need for the term "prescriptivist".

user19161

@z7sg I am very confused too. I would need to study this transcript in detail to dissect it later!

Cerberus

If they just use their version but do not pressure me at all, they don't exhibit much prescriptivism. It may still be there, but they don't really exert it on me.

bracho monacho

8 mins ago, by bracho monacho

@Cerberus Well, just for the record, I am a girl. Always have been, always will be.

rumtscho

11:13 PM

@JasperLoy You mean, you only get a little homosexual when a homosexual reproduces? This sounds like a convergent sequence.

RegDwight

@Cerberus Of course you would say that, not having a TV set.

bracho monacho

Woo! I just did a RegDwight!

z7sg

I just popped back on here to see 500 new msgs!

bracho monacho

(Wasn't sure if that would work.)

z7sg

@brachomonacho you did well padawan

Cerberus

11:13 PM

@RegDwight Absolutely, IF he expresses certain preferences, and, technically, if he pressures or advises others based on this preference.

RegDwight

But anyhow, I dunno why you always drag me into discussions I am not after.

Cerberus

halo

RegDwight

I couldn't care less who's descriptivist and who's not and whatever.

You just asked me about the situation in Russia, I answered.

user19161

@brachomonacho I took a while to understand that. That sentence is ambiguous!

z7sg

ah, but I need to ask SciFi.SE what a female padawan is called, or if there is a gender-specific term at all

Cerberus

11:14 PM

You could say there is a certain prescriptivist aspect to broadcasting unusual spelling, even if not directed at anyone specifically and not worded as such.

Then we are agreed.

user19161

It should be made compulsory to fill in the fields sex, orientation. Any lies would result in the computer exploding.

rumtscho

@z7sg If there is, it is certainly politically incorrect to use it. Nevertheless, I'd go with padawanessa, because it sounds so grand.

RegDwight

artlebedev.ru/kovodstvo/sections/114

user19161

@z7sg Padawani sounds nice.

rumtscho

@JasperLoy You want half the catholic clergy to die from exploding computers?

bracho monacho

11:16 PM

@rumtscho Haha, I don't mind narwhal non-believers that much... It's not as annoying as having to spend an hour explaining to someone why it isn't impossible to melt an aluminium can inside a campfire, or turn a beer bottle into a puddle of glass.

z7sg

@rumtscho Are gender-specific terms not allowed any more? Not even if the person concerned wishes to refer to themselves as an actress or whatever?

Cerberus

@RegDwight International corporate services, something like that... is that all with the wrong cases and such?

RegDwight

@Cerberus Nah, there's more to it. The article addresses several different issues.

Cerberus

@RegDwight I believe you in all respects, and I would be infuriated to the same extent.

RegDwight

@Cerberus I am not sure I would tie the idea of prescriptivism to whether or not it's broadcast.

Cerberus

11:19 PM

@RegDwight Yeah, that isn't a clear case.

RegDwight

I mean, if I write right here right now "10 items or less is ungrammatical, it must be 10 items or fewer", then IMHO it's prescriptivism whether or not anybody ever sees it at all.

rumtscho

@z7sg Depends on the language and the person I think. In fact, in German it is rather the other way round - just try to write "Liebe Kollegen" to your co-workers. All your Kolleginnen will feel slighted. On the other hand, I think that in Italia, a female student would hate to be referred to as "studentessa". And thinking of padawanessa, I probably implicitely assumed the second case.

MrHen

@RegDwight Er, that seems like it should be obviously true. Did I miss something?

Cerberus

@RegDwight Yes, because "must" implies that someone else than you yourself must abide this rule of yours.

RegDwight

@Cerberus See, but corporate brand-books are all about must.

By definition.

They must be all about must.

Cerberus

11:23 PM

But if you just say "I will write it thus and so", it isn't as clearly prescriptivist; but you could say it still is, because, if you lay out a rule for yourself, you will probably like it if others do so too. I suppose.

RegDwight

A descriptivist brand-book is a contradiction in termini.

@Cerberus Yes, but you wouldn't write that in a brandbook.

z7sg

@rumtscho You have to write Liebe Kollegen/-innen IIRC. It can be a problem if I don't know the person's preference. And so often the alternative words are just... horrid.

RegDwight

You wouldn't say, "I like our logo red, and if others like it that way, then it's awesome".

Instead, you will define the hell out of those CMYKs.

Cerberus

@RegDwight Right, and in that respect they are certainly prescriptivist. But what if they never really tell people to follow their rules? That makes it weaker.

@RegDwight Ouch! And, yes.

bracho monacho

Time for me to go to work...

RegDwight

11:26 PM

@Cerberus If you work for Coca-Cola or Apple or Sony or whatever, and ignore their brandbook, you're fired.

bracho monacho

Bye everyone!

RegDwight

I dunno what lala-world you are living in. :)))

user19161

@brachomonacho Bye

rumtscho

@brachomonacho poor antopod girl. Bye.

Cerberus

@RegDwight I'm not sure I follow the subtleties of this argument... if you prescribe what your logo should look like internally, that isn't really prescriptivist towards people outside the company, though, yes, it certainly is towards your own employees.

rumtscho

11:27 PM

It is past time for me to go to bed here, so I am also going offline.

z7sg

@brachomonacho @rumtscho see you!

user19161

@rumtscho Bye

Cerberus

@RegDwight Right, then that brandbook is absolutely prescriptivist towards their own employees.

RegDwight

@Cerberus You don't "prescribe what your logo should look like internally".

There is no such thing as internal logo.

Logo is all about external.

Cerberus

How does Philips prescibe their logo to me?

RegDwight

11:29 PM

It does not.

Cerberus

I don't really feel prescribed.

OK.

RegDwight

I dunno what that has to do with the discussion at hand.

Cerberus

I don't get what your point about this logo was, I think.

RegDwight

Haha, yes, that's what I'm thinking, too.

Cerberus

Then we have reached agreement once again! Bravi!

RegDwight

11:31 PM

My point is that there's no point in reaching it. Just tell me that I'm right. That's so much simpler.

I prescribe that.

Cerberus

I'm just saying that a Nohat or Colin Fine in the extreme would be saying, "oh, look, their logo is thus and so, how very interesting", without commenting at all about the desirability of it.

@RegDwight I let only Fowler do that to me.

Grace Note

Well, I had a whole counter to the "genetics" point based on the whole heriditary thing, but after getting dragged away it seems that'd already been done.

RegDwight

@Cerberus I don't think so.

They only take native speakers into account.

Cerberus

But that is descriptivism: just describing it.

RegDwight

Obviously, if I along come start and talk like this, they will tell me, nope, that's not English.

Cerberus

11:33 PM

@RegDwight Yes, that is why they aren't extreme.

user19161

@GraceNote Huh? I don't understand your difficult sentence.

Grace Note

@JasperLoy Simply put, "I had something to say but then I got pulled aside by someone and so someone else in the room already said it, roughly"

RegDwight

I think Nohat is extreme enough for the Internet. One step at a time.

Cerberus

@RegDwight An extreme descriptivist would say, "oh, how very interesting that foreigners use language differently from native speakers; let's research that".

RegDwight

@Cerberus And he would never get anything done. Because every non-native speaker uses the language differently.

Cerberus

11:35 PM

The term "grammatical" has prescriptivist aspects. That is one of the reasons I find anti-prescriptivism hypocritical.

user19161

Oh I see. Actually all I meant to say is that it seems natural and not willed by the individual, whatever that means.

RegDwight

If anything, he would end up with a description of how vgv8 uses English. Which no one would ever read.

Cerberus

@RegDwight Not quite. Based on the subtrate language, various patterns could be described.

user19161

Anyway, genetics seems complicated. Too many factor, too many assumptions...

Cerberus

@RegDwight Yes, but who reads their stuff anyway?

Mana

11:36 PM

Life is complicated, maaaan.

RegDwight

Descriptivists, obviously.

Cerberus

Do they, really?

user19161

@Mana Ya, that is deep Mana!

RegDwight

You just told me that.

Cerberus

Did I?

I see no quote.

RegDwight

11:37 PM

2 mins ago, by Cerberus

@RegDwight An extreme descriptivist would say, "oh, how very interesting that foreigners use language differently from native speakers; let's research that".

Cerberus

I said write, not read.

Mana

What can I say? I'm a very deep person.

RegDwight

Ah, I see.

I misread you.

Grace Note

I figure there are two separate brain ideals that can be branded as masculine versus feminine, but I figure it's also completely independent of your being XX or XY.

Cerberus

Well, that was a joke in any case.

MrHen

11:38 PM

@Cerberus I don't really see what researching something has to do with that something being called English.

RegDwight

I thought you meant "but who reads [vgv8's] stuff anyway?"

Cerberus

Oh!

No.

We did!

RegDwight

@MrHen A++ would read again.

Cerberus

At least, we read the first two or three lines, before we voted to close.

aedia

Whoops, must hurry out to get bus. I will expect a full analysis of gender and sexuality and the movie Go Fish upon my return. Also, solve world hunger while you're at it. Ta!

Grace Note

11:39 PM

Later, @aedia

Mana

I am a guy and I like girls. Boom, analysis complete.

shoots flames from fingertips

user19161

@Mana Thanks for your honesty. You are just like me; I have disclosed everything...

z7sg

@Mana Maybe you just haven't met the right guy yet!

Cerberus

@MrHen What is and what isn't English is a continuum. One one end, you have toddlers and barely intelligible foreigners; on the other, Oxford deans, or the Queen—or some American guy: there isn't even consensus about the ends. In fact, the continuum might be multi-dimensional.

user19161

@z7sg Haha. Trying to convert dear Mana?

user19161

11:41 PM

BTW, do watch Summer Storm. It's a movie about gays, but it's a really good and meaningful movie. In German, with Eng subtitles.

Cerberus

Bye Aedia!

Grace Note

@z7sg Sometimes the right guy is just the one who introduces you to the right girl, though, neh?

Cerberus

Or the right mother-in-law!

Wait, that sounded wrong.

Grace Note

It'd only be wrong if you followed it up with "But that'd still be the right girl"

Cerberus

Right! Thanks.

RegDwight

11:43 PM

← 77 messages moved from War Metal Tyrant

user19161

In Summer Storm this really cute gay tries to convert someone too.

Grace Note

Did a whole bunch of stuff just get dumped in here?

Aye, a whole bunch of stuff did.

Cerberus

@RegDwight Nooo what have you done! These poor people... their descriptivist eyes couldn't bear this discussion!

Mana

@RegDwight You know, I was thinking there were too few threads going on here at once. Thanks for fixing that.

RegDwight

← 51 messages moved from War Metal Tyrant

z7sg

11:45 PM

@RegDwight The transcript wasn't confused enough for a while then, but you fixed it!

3

Grace Note

@Cerberus I still don't even know what descriptivism vs. prescriptivism even is.

Cerberus

@GraceNote Then let me explain!

Mana

Oh no.

user19161

@Cerberus Please do!

z7sg

Can you do it in the form of a musical number?

user19161

11:46 PM

@Mana This is too shallow for Mana.

Cerberus

You could say something about language (or anything else, for that matter). You could either say "oh, look, it is like this, let me describe it", or "oh, it should be like this, let me explain how I'd like it to be".

user19161

@Cerberus That sounds really bad.

Cerberus

@z7sg Trust me, you don't want that.

@JasperLoy Indeed!

RegDwight

@z7sg I'm sorry that I used some linguistic discussion to intersperse your exchange about "really cute gays" with.

Cerberus

That's basically the difference between describing and prescribing.

Grace Note

11:48 PM

@Cerberus I see

Cerberus

Each has its proper domain and shouldn't be let out: then things get messy.

z7sg

@RegDwight Hmm, on the basis of that comment I am recommending you for the next LGBT awareness training weekend. I'm sure it will be a lot of fun!

Cerberus

Awareness...

Physical awareness?

RegDwight

That's the most moronic word ever invented.

Grace Note

@z7sg It seems odd that you support LGBT awareness yet do not believe in Narwhals. That contradicts our theory of you being the old flame.

Cerberus

11:50 PM

@RegDwight Yay, prescriptivism!

RegDwight

@Cerberus No, descriptivism.

I see the most moronic word ever, I describe it as such.

Cerberus

Nope!

RegDwight

Yup!

z7sg

@JasperLoy Prescriptivism sounds like a nice idea, but it quickly ties you in horrible knots.

RegDwight

(Someone post that Wikipedia link quick, I'm tired.)

Cerberus

11:51 PM

But you judge its desirability: that is the core of prescriptivism as it is defined in philosophy, linguistics, etc. etc.

user19161

@z7sg I was referring to the mother-in-law thing!

RegDwight

@Cerberus WHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH

Grace Note

Well, we had a you in here earlier but that you vanished and then you came along so I guess you'll have to untire yourself.

Cerberus

@RegDwight That... is neither!

user19161

I am now beginning to think that almost everyone here is a unicorn in disguise. My mind is playing tricks on me...

Cerberus

11:52 PM

I certainly am not! covers purple fur

z7sg

@JasperLoy Who has been cornifying the chat again??

RegDwight

@Cerberus I'm sorry, did you just point out that "whoosh" is neither philosophy nor linguistics?

I'm not sure I can handle such revelations.

z7sg

@JasperLoy Uhm, I don't want to know about those fantasies. :)

Cerberus

@RegDwight Perhaps some PAT is in order? You know, Prescriptivism Awareness Training. Don't you like the wonderfully pleasant noun adjectives? pats you

z7sg

@GraceNote I have no affiliation with Narwhals, and I have never met monaco bronaco!

RegDwight

11:54 PM

in War Metal Tyrant, Jul 20 at 19:17, by RegDwight

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7137611@N05/4868354314/

Grace Note

@z7sg I'd look up that point where I totally saw you deny their existence and yet I cannot because of the slew of linguisophistivism.

user19161

@GraceNote You just made up that word!

RegDwight

@Cerberus How about some Awareness Awareness Training? You know, the basics first and all.

z7sg

49 mins ago, by z7sg

@rumtscho Narwhals aren't real. They don't exist.

Grace Note

@JasperLoy I do that a lot, as it were. To wit, it's kinda my thing.

RegDwight

11:57 PM

@z7sg I'm sorry, but I have proof to the contrary.

z7sg

I've evidently been talking nonsense for over an hour now.. must bid you all goodnight!

user19161

Besides Summer Storm, La Mala Educacion is good too. It's Spanish, with Eng subtitles.

z7sg

@RegDwight Oh. Not. That.

user19161

@z7sg Bye

RegDwight

@z7sg Take that as my lullaby.

Cerberus

11:58 PM

@RegDwight Ah, an excellent idea! Meta-Trainings are always the most productive ones. Perhaps we should hold a meeting or two about it first, though.

@z7sg Night!

RegDwight

@Cerberus I would like to fetch some ideas about setting up a brainstorming for figuring out some dates when we could come together to talk about holding your meeting.

Grace Note

Can we practice that a bit, first? Make sure we are prepared to get the hang of that?

Cerberus

@RegDwight That would seem an excellent distribution of tasks. I will make a nice sandwich with egg, salmon, and tomato.

And mayonaise.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…