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8:00 PM
@Robusto THWACK
so i may have to go soon
 
@JSBangs — Thank you sir, may I please have another?
 
i have a 1:1 with my boss... which should be way less stressful than what i've been doing around here for fun
 
ha ha... hope it goes better than here
@Robusto did you mean this? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ja_Rule
 
@rest_day — That was the association, but the indicative reference was J.A. as initials of someone whose name is almost Jeff Atkins.
0
Q: Internationally understood alternative to "unavailable"

JoJoI would like to present an error message to viewers of my website when a video is blocked in their country due to legal requirements. Currently I have the following: This video is unavailable in your country. I feel that many non-English speakers will not understand "unavailable". Do you kn...

Surely this is off-topic. English words that are understood in other languages?
 
well, JoJo the OP is being wrong on the internet, but since i don't have any more votes i just have to write him a comment
 
8:17 PM
Here comes @Dori ex machina, floating in to solve all our problems.
 
hi, @Dori
 
@Robusto Oh, how I wish I could…
 
@Dori — You just have to believe in yourself.
 
does this mean that someone read our email?
 
All team@ email (which includes team+) goes straight to Jeff—he forwards it to us if/when he wants to.
 
8:19 PM
hmmm, i wish i had known that
not that i have any other email addresses that i knew to send it to
 
Well, you can read it now.
Since it's on Google docs
 
My problem is that I'm somewhere in between his POV and the ELU mods POV—I think there's stuff that could really be improved, and that we could all work together to make it a place that's friendly to experts and professionals.
 
May 4 at 13:03, by RegDwight
Feb 23 at 13:32, by RegDwight
user image
 
(was reading it, got the "howdy", and decided to say hello back)
 
@Dori — "Friendly" is a good word. We could start with that.
 
8:21 PM
@JSBangs: Your email mentions an answer I wrote which I did not write?
Or I am misunderstanding something...
 
@Dori I'm an actual expert/professional, and I am struggling to come up with some reason to stay.
 
@MrHen It was an error - he meant @psmears. Gotta have at least one typo, right?
 
Okay. Just checking.
 
@MrHen sorry, that was a mistake.
 
But that means he is not an expert and he has no reason to be here
 
8:22 PM
I was all like, "Wha? I did when? I am amazing!"
 
@MrHen you are amazing
 
Aw... :)
 
@MrHen — But if there are any adverse repercussions, I'm sure @psmears will welcome any willingness you may have to fall on your sword in his place.
 
Wait: attractive to experts and professionals does not mean only for experts and professionals
 
@Dori i agree. if we could get Jeff + mods and any other interested parties into a room, i'm sure we could work this out. it's just... someone had to get someone's attention in order for that to happen
 
8:23 PM
"there had been ZERO previous indication that management thinks
there is something wrong with the site," is incorrect
 
I know that I'd mentioned it to mods before—particularly about the number of uncleared flags
 
@Robusto Sure will!
 
So, you've seen the meta thread, and now read Jeff's comments, and you feel his treatment was appropriate?
 
@Dori i do recall that (though i'm not a mod). guess in my mind this is a different category of thing
 
8:26 PM
@Dori — Uncleared flags are one thing, but why not make that explicit? To suddenly go medieval on the mods here in a semi-veiled way is at least passive-aggressive if not outright hostile behavior.
 
@Dori Thanks for popping in - really appreciate the opportunity to sort this out... As someone who's devoted a fair amount of time to (I thought) adding value to the site, I'd be really grateful to know what the "quality problems" are.
 
Is the way we handle flags the "litany of problems"?
 
unfortunately (or not) i have to leave now. catch up with you all in the morning
 
@Robusto Yes - this is certainly how it has come across to me. We all thought things were just fine, and then suddenly it's "severe quality problems" and "a litany of standing problems". I'm all for constructive feedback, but I'm at a loss to know what's wrong with what I/we've been doing...
 
When I look at the site, I see a lot of what I think of as Beavis & Butthead type questions.
 
8:30 PM
We lament those as well. But there is a fine line between what is B&B and what is a legitimate question about profane or scatological language.
 
There are also a lot of translation questions, which were supposed to be off topic.
 
@Dori That's 78 questions. Out of 8256. And we were greenlit to have them, after that Boobs vs Tits question proved that we are capable to deal with them in an academic fashion.
There were Robert's exact words.
 
There are users that only ask this sort of question, and they (imo) bring down the site's tone.
 
That's our opinion as well.
And one of those users used to work for Stack Overflow.
 
@Dori Let's take a step back here. Certainly there must be a number of things that we could do to improve content, as with almost any SO site. Someone needs to address whether Jeff's actions in dealing with this issue were officially endorsed by the SO powers that be, and whether his treatment of mods and other users was appropriate.
 
8:32 PM
@Dori Equally there's a fine line between a translation question and a "How do I express this concept neatly in English" question. Often the "I'm trying to express something I know how to say in another language" is background... and questions where it's not get closed very quickly.
 
I can't just kick out people at will, can I?
Cause I know I would.
 
@Dori This conversation we are having now about the vulgar questions, this is a conversation we could have and should have had before everything that happened in this meta thread.
 
@Dori Really? Examples, please? (If you can successfully answer a question without knowing any language other than English, then it's, ipso facto, not a translation question.)
 
Jeff is a co-founder, and the buck stops with him. However, there are ways to make things work (imo) that work for all.
 
Okay, that's the answer then.
 
8:33 PM
@RegDwight Yes you can, and yes, you should
 
Just say, "RegDwight, stop posting those polite comments welcoming total noobs to the site and trying to explain to them how it's supposed to work. Instead, just ban them." And I will happily do just that.
@Dori Thank you. I take that as a Yes.
 
@RegDwight Welcoming newbs is great. No problems with that.
 
But it doesn't seem to work out in the end.
 
35 mins ago, by Robusto
So what we have here is ... wait for it ... JA Rule.
 
It just creates broken windows it seems.
 
8:35 PM
@Martha Do you really never see ESL questions on ELU? 'Cause I know I see them.
 
@Dori So, if that's it, then I don't think I'm a good fit for SO.
 
WWJAD
 
@Dori ESL question <> translation question
 
@Kosmonaut I think you're a great fit. Please, let's try to find a common ground.
 
@Dori I see them all the time, but I can't be closing all of them unilaterally against the will of the community.
 
8:36 PM
@Dori: What we're talking about now, it has nothing to do with my problems. We actually discuss these very things you are talking about, trying to make them better.
 
@Dori From our FAQ: "Questions on the following topics are welcomed here... Problems encountered by people learning English"
 
ESL questions were originally supposed to be off topic.
 
@Dori You said "the buck stops" with Jeff regarding his actions and treatment. So I'm out of luck.
 
So the mods are told to have a light touch, except about questions that would put a burr under JA's saddle?
 
Yes and no.
 
8:37 PM
@Kosmonaut unless someone can bring Jeff here
 
Personally, I am not comfortable with his attempts to bring me down. Congrats to him — he did actually make me feel awful.
 
@Dori Look, let me put it this way. This site is still run by the very same people it was run by 10 months ago. We are all still here. If you are seeing problems, just talk to us. Like you are doing now.
 
I don't think you want Jeff here, actually; he likes the b&w good/bad "you go/you stay" lines. Me, I'm trying to find common ground.
 
@Dori — Well, then, as much as I hate to say it, and as much as I would hate to lose @Kosmonaut here, maybe the only thing he will understand is the departure of good people.
 
@RegDwight And that's what I'm here trying to do. Not respond to "but Jeff said this," but to work to help make ELU a better place (ideally, imo, with the current group of elected mods)
 
8:39 PM
Well, you can count me in if you actually put it that way.
But please understand how your approach is fundamentally different from just going berserk closing and deleting stuff at will.
 
@Dori So when I come home from campus today, and my wife wants to know why I am so down, she'll ask "something bad with your dissertation"? No. "Something bad at work?" "No. It's the website I moderate, I'm getting a lot of crap from my "boss" there." You know what my wife will say? Just quit the damn thing!
 
@RegDwight Yay! So, let's figure out what y'all feel would improve the site.
 
@Dori Being treated professionally and respectfully.
 
@RegDwight I know it's different, and I hate the good cop/bad cop crap; but apparently, Jeff is letting me be the good cop.
 
@Dori We have a number of users I would like to see gone for at least a year, but I am not sure I can bring up anything against them other than them bringing the tone and the quality of the site down in very subtle but constant ways.
 
8:42 PM
@Dori "dialogue"
 
@Kosmonaut You are owed that. No doubt, and no questions about it.
@RegDwight That's enough: you suck and you need to go. If the mods agree, they're history.
 
@Dori — Excuse me for pointing this out, but this is an unfortunate comparison. The "good cop" is the one who pretends to befriend the accused to manipulate cooperation. I'm sorry, but this is EL&U and we care about the meaning of words here.
 
@Robusto I agree—which is why I said I hate that cliché.
 
@Dori Well, you see, someone needs to tell me that. Because the mantra I was brought up with was "Mods must do as little as possible".
 
But it does make for a handy shorthand.
 
8:44 PM
I was actually not sure if I was overmoderating this site until you showed up twenty minutes ago.
 
As in... the thing that most people seem to be upset about is that this "quality" issue seems to have come out of nowhere... a post on Meta to discuss whatever is perceived to be the issue would have headed off a lot of heartache...
 
@RegDwight Mods should keep the best interest of the site in mind.
Moderation in moderation makes sense, until you get someone like vgv8—which is why I led the campaign to show him the door.
 
@Dori I feel like I am not being heard here. Figuring out the site itself is something to deal with IF the conduct issue gets resolved.
2
 
@Dori Technical question, then. Can I ban people without messaging them under the current system? I suppose the answer is no, which is fine with me, it's just that I don't feel confident enough to word that message.
I don't want to sound ESLish while banning people.
 
I love to pick over the questions and decide if questions are really good or bad, and whether we can narrow things down to keep things at high quality. And figure out how to run the site better. But something ELSE happened.
 
8:47 PM
@RegDwight (I really don't think you have anything to worry about in that regard.)
 
@Martha I am dead serious. This is not the time for jokes anyhow. Every time I start composing something that important, all my skills just evaporate.
 
@Kosmonaut I can't offer a real apology for what someone else (particularly my boss's boss) says—but I do think it was over the top, and I'm sorry you got hurt.
 
@RegDwight I'm dead serious. Write the messages as if you were writing something for chat, and they'll be perfectly acceptable. Really.
 
@Dori If you're in the position where you can't do/say anything more than that — and I can understand that kind of professional situation — and if there is nobody else who can address it or feels it is warranted to address (and I know I don't want to have a conversation with Jeff himself about it), then I am completely stuck.
 
@RegDwight In that particular case, I am happy to be the bad guy and send any necessary emails.
 
8:51 PM
@Dori Much appreciated.
 
I have to go, but I want to leave with one final thought. Deciding what is a good question and what is crap is a lot harder on this site than on probably on any other SE site. If you ban all "jokey" questions and all questions by non-native speakers and all the rest of it, pretty soon you are going to whittle this place down to Atheists.SE. And at that point no one will care because all of us will be off doing other things.
2
Anyway, gotta go.
 
TTYL. Have fun.
 
@Kosmonaut I can try to get Robert involved, but he's the guy in between us, so I don't know what else he can say. I do know that Jeff was coming primarily from a point of frustration, and that some of that is my fault—It's been on my to-do list for a while to work with y'all, and I keep getting caught up fighting fires.
 
@Martha That's the deal, I'd have to trick myself into doing that. Because when I compose important stuff, I start wondering if "start wondering" is grammatically correct, and then go look it up on Google and it takes forever and the end result is an NNSish patchwork.
 
@RegDwight This phenomenon is not unique to NNSs. It happens to me too...
 
8:56 PM
@psmears @RegDwight ditto here
 
@RegDwight Yeah, really, that just means someone else should get the task of writing those. Some people are actually good at that task and that may be something worth adding to the Mod team if it is lacking.
 
@Dori Well, just to be clear, it's not like we were not frustrated with all that crap that kept coming in. But it's not like we haven't been fighting it. This room is extremely active at pretty much all times. It's just that our thresholds turned out to be different from Jeff's, which is okay and all, but then he shouldn't have been keeping it to himself for so long.
 
(Obviously no offense meant. I completely understand.)
 
@Kosmonaut any of that help? If not, but talking privately might, just open a room.
 
@Dori At this point, I feel like what happened in that meta thread could happen at any time, and I just have to deal with it.
And though you sympathize with me, it could happen again.
 
8:59 PM
That's the saddest part about it. I have to agree with Kosmonaut there.
 
@Kosmonaut You don't. And there are alternatives. Volunteers shouldn't have to put up with crap.
(employees? that's another matter…)
 
@Dori What would you suggest as a good alternative (other than "leave the site")?
 
For one: do any of the mods here attend the moderator chat cast?
 
So, it might be my fault I was treated that way?
 
@Kosmonaut Heavens, no!
I was thinking of the bigger picture.
 
9:04 PM
I put a lot of effort into the site, but am always finding ways I could improve my work. I know I am not ever going to handle the site in the exact way that Jeff would want in every instance, no matter what I do.
 
Hell, Jeff doesn't always handle sites the exact way Jeff wants it done.
 
Of course.
 
The thing is, this site is not just questions. Heck, this site is not about questions at all. This site is about the community. And we have an awesome core community here, active 24/7. They can deal with problems. Even the recent influx of crap questions has not driven them away. They are ready to fight it. But they are not ready to fight needless humiliation out of the blue from TPTB. That one thing could drive away the strongest man.
 
So the important thing is, what happens when Jeff disagrees with something I do?
I have to switch to mobile — my wife is picking me up
 
@Dori I am in a crappy time zone, but you should know that I try to read as many transcripts of as many things as a human could possibly get his hands on.
 
9:07 PM
@RegDwight Great!
 
And again, if you were to say, hey people, English.SE is declining, you're not handling it right, then I would have shown up any place you say at any time you deem necessary to talk about it.
 
@Dori For the benefit of us non-mods, could you explain what goes on in one of those (or at least, how it might help address the current concerns)?
 
@Kosmonaut I think that Jeff sees a difference between action and inaction—and he only saw the latter.
 
@RegDwight I still don't understand what's considered a good question verses a crap or uninteresting question, as I try really hard to make sure my questions are according to the FAQs.
 
@RegDwight what time does work for you? We do try to move them around, and if you give me a specific time I will see what I can do.
 
9:09 PM
@Dori But that's the problem. You do the right thing 500 times in a row, and the wrong thing just once, people will not remember the 500 times. They will only point you to that one error.
And I don't blame anyone for that, because that's just Psychology 101.
 
@psmears Two things: ① it's a good place to find out what TPTB are focused on right now, ② it's a great place to ask questions to see what's hot network-wide.
 
@Dori thanks!
 
@RebeccaChernoff You really catch me off-guard there. Again, I am not used to people changing their habits just for me. If there is important stuff about this site crumbling, I'll try to be there live, hell or high water, job or wife. But if it's just the usual "this is what's on elsewhere", then the transcript will do the job for me because I won't be able to contribute to it better than others already do.
 
We start them with general network-wide things, but there is always time for open questions.
 
I have to say, aside from appreciating that you came here to talk at all, I feel like there is no solution to my problem.
Not because of you buy because of the whole way the organization works.
 
9:19 PM
@RebeccaChernoff Okay, duly noted. And thanks a bunch. But right now I am really more worried about keeping Kosmonaut onboard than about chat schedules.
 
@RebeccaChernoff I believe I talk for the majority of the users that, keeping @Kosmonaut should be a priority for English.SE
 
I'm not saying it isn't, by any means. I simply asked a question. Didn't say "drop and everything and answer this now!" (;
 
I don't want to act like I am so great. This site will continue whether I am here or not and do fine. But things seem really out of whack with the way things went down and the fact about how I feel is just a fact.
 
We all want the same thing here. A site with great quality content.
 
And for a site with quality content, dedicated users are a must. They are not dispensable
 
9:24 PM
Again. I, for one, would not feel bad about closing or even deleting 50% of the questions that came in today. But I can't be closing stuff unilaterally like that.
Besides, as I have stated time and again, every question is stupid, basic, and worthless if you know the answer to it.
 
@rest_day Positively. I figured I'd start working on creating dedicated users after I got money growing on trees. (;
There are some situations where more direct mod action is ok.
 
@RebeccaChernoff I believe, you have a set of dedicated users already,
 
> That begs the actual question of where we draw the line. Every question is trivial if you know the answer to it, or where to look. To take an undeniably awesome answer by an undeniably respected user as an example, this could be written by anyone who can type americancorpus.org in his browser's address bar. So what?
> And on a more general note, I always thought that we want to be the ultimate resource; we want to be that first Google result. Has that changed? When? Why?
> RegDwight♦ Jan 30 at 13:31
That's freaking six months ago.
 
you can work on not distancing them
 
9:27 PM
And it was directed at Jeff.
And the only answer I ever got was "@regdwight There Is Such a Thing as a Stupid Question. And the "general reference" one is pretty harmless. – Jeff Atwood♦ Jan 31 at 9:09"
I'm sorry, that just doesn't cut it. What was he expecting me to do after that?
Close everything as general reference? Nothing? Something?
 
there are some questions on the site where simply typing the question title into google gives you countless perfect answers. a random one: english.stackexchange.com/q/10659/982
when there are answers like
8
A: What does "TL;DR:" mean?

Grewe KokkorToo Long; Didn't Read

Eh, that doesn't show in the onebox, but it is just a link.
 
@RebeccaChernoff Yes. And I would happily close that one. Except that it got multicollidered so everyone and his dog must have seen it by now but nobody ever complained.
 
Some things don't make the internet better.
 
FWIW Jeff has amended the offensive comment he posted
 
Again, I can't just go around closing stuff that nobody objects to at all.
 
9:30 PM
not entirely.
This is something that comes up in the mod room often enough.
You've got the guidelines in the faq backing you.
I think the programmers.se and SO mods could have some great guidance for you if you talked to them regarding closing questions the community thinks are great but that are against the faq.
 
What I am really getting at is that if we remove everything that is trivial, we don't have a site.
We have to strike a balance.
 
@RegDwight I think that's a bit extreme.
 
And that's what I am trying to do every single day.
@RebeccaChernoff It is not. Because, again, if you're an expert in the subject matter, then pretty much everything is trivial.
I am not interested in 90% of the stuff that gets posted here. I know the answer already. Or I know where to look.
But that attitude won't get me nowhere.
 
we're not saying burninate everything trivial to you
 
Well, but then we are back to square one.
 
9:34 PM
if you can type the question into google, and the first 50 pages of results contain perfect answers to the question...
 
Because then I try to let the community guide me.
 
all that shows is that the user has not spent an ounce of energy on their question.
 
And by "community" I mean, really, just one flag.
Just one close vote.
Sometimes that's all I need.
That's why I am in chat 24/7 posting links to stuff that bothers me.
 
Teach the community. If something doesn't fit with the faq, leave a comment.
Comments are huge!
 
@RebeccaChernoff With English language questions, there are TONS of sites that offer you lots of advice that is pure crap.
 
9:35 PM
@RebeccaChernoff SO got big with that type of questions.
 
@RegDwight they're not allowed now. people still try to ask them and the mods close them.
@Kosmonaut I didn't say results with pure crap, I said results that answer it perfectly.
If the answers out there on the internet are crappy, yes, we're making the internet better in that case.
 
@RebeccaChernoff Sometimes it takes an entire community, or at least several pairs of eyes to decide whether something is answered perfectly elsewhere or not.
So it's kind of a chicken-and-egg problem.
 
Again, this is all about quality. Keep the quality on the site high.
 
I am here to do just that. All the more does it hurt to hear that I have failed.
 
@RegDwight which is why you leave comments and encourage the comment to flag and vote-to-close as fit.
 
9:37 PM
I guess we aren't talking anymore about the way we were treated, and nothing more is going to happen with that?
 
@RebeccaChernoff But how is poor Joe Newbie supposed to tell apart the utter-crap answer from the perfect answer? Especially when both answers are on the same site?
 
@RebeccaChernoff Which I do day in, day out. Sorry, you can't say I am not putting a metric ton of effort into this site every single day.
 
Because I'd be wasting time to get bogged down with these details we are discussing now, as I won't be sticking around anyway.
 
@RebeccaChernoff This is why I spend time answering questions here. For almost any question the answers you will get from google will be 50-100% crap. And what's worse (unlike SO questions) it's impossible (for someone who doesn't know the answer already) to know the difference...
 
@Kosmonaut I'm just here conversing, hoping for an open dialogue. I have no set agenda here.
 
9:38 PM
@Martha Exactly
 
@RebeccaChernoff BTW, others have said that already, but I have not, so: thanks for actually showing up. And we're sorry for using you and Dori as a proxy. But such is the system.
 
Yes, I actually am very interested in the discussion.
 
@Martha, was just going for an example of general reference. If you can open a dictionary and find the answer, chances are it is legit.
 
@Kosmonaut I think you can interpret Jeff's editing of his comments as an acknowledgment that he was wrong, albeit not really an apology.
 
@RebeccaChernoff Ditto
 
9:40 PM
@Martha say what?
 
@Martha Wow, actually, his modified comment is really mean.
 
@Martha Agreed
 
11 mins ago, by psmears
FWIW Jeff has amended the offensive comment he posted
 
@Kosmonaut Wait, which one? I thought he walked it back.
 
Another issue I feel exists with the "ELU quality is low" attitude is that often with language questions, the right answer is a lot more subtle than it appears. So you can ask any native speaker, and immediately get a clear and definitive answer. Or ask the same question of ten native speakers, and get fifteen different answers...
 
9:41 PM
@kos I have amended my comment; my frustration comes from the fact that nearly every time I visit this site, I am embarrassed to be associated with the sort of banal, least-common-denominator questions that appear here. If this site is indeed intended for experts, it needs far stronger moderation.
 
...and thus sorting out what's "true" is far from trivial.
 
This is his amended comment, mind you.
 
@RebeccaChernoff The thing is, sometimes a question that is answered by opening a dictionary can be answered much more awesomely. I kind of tried to set an example this very morning.
5
3
Q: "Pricey" vs. "Pricy"

LeifI've recently encountered these two variations of the spellings for the informal word for "expensive." My dictionary and the online dictionary seem to indicate that both of these spellings are correct, but I have yet to discover why there are two variations of this word. Are both of these spell...

I came there, it had three answers that would make it a general reference. I tried to turn it into something better.
But the thing is, it's still the same freaking question.
 
@Kosmonaut But at least it's not an ad-hominem attack against you personally. (Yes, I'm grasping at straws.)
 
Closing a question isn't final. Closed questions can be edited, and reopened. And yes, the answers determine the quality sometimes, most definitely.
 
9:43 PM
BTW, the edit may have just been to fix a bad at-mention
It used to be pointing to kia, not kos
 
The comment about lack of flags and flag handling is interesting though. Our stats show that the average flag handling time on the site is double any other site on the network. (;
 
Jeff really has no clue about linguistics, but the dangerous thing is, he thinks he knows tons.
 
I just went to SO to check, the top question on my front page is this:
-3
Q: delete delete delete delete delete delete delete

Tomdelete delete delete delete delete vdelete

 
If he thinks this site should be for experts only, then 99% of the questions are crap.
 
@RebeccaChernoff Personally, I think this is something that the ELU community doesn't appreciate enough. If we accidentally close something, we can reopen it just as easily.
 
9:45 PM
Exactly!
Which is why I feel very strongly that comments that teach the community are so so so important.
2
 
yesterday, by RegDwight
Well, we often don't remove the flags too fast. We like to leave some up as a post-it for other mods.
If that is wrong, then please shoot me.
I don't freaking care how we compare to other sites. I care about this site, dammit.
 
@RegDwight that's great. Hold the community to a higher standard. That's excellent. An upvote for you! (:
 
Well, it wouldn't have hurt to think up an example posted by someone else, but I couldn't.
 
It is a great example for this though. That answer oozes quality. (:
 
Okay, I've got to go. I feel like I am wasting my time. If Jeff's additional comments were supposed to be somehow an apology, then there is really no hope.
 
9:49 PM
@RebeccaChernoff But I still feel we're in need of a "clear bright line" - or at least, as close as we can get to one - for what's "good enough". When what often seem to be very basic questions - about very simple words - often have really fascinating answers from a historical/linguistic point of view.
2
 
It's actually worse than if he wrote nothing.
 
@Kosmonaut Just go get some sleep.
in War Metal Tyrant, 23 hours ago, by RegDwight
As the Russian saying goes, "The morning is smarter than the evening."
 
@Kosmonaut, happy to discuss this any time. You know where to find me. (:
 
@RebeccaChernoff You don't have to listen to me, but in my opinion you all should seriously consider ways to address this better.
 
@Kosmonaut Take some time away if you need to—but don't leave. You (all of you) have been doing great work; we just need to sit down with a cup of tea and figure out how to best focus it to make the site even better.
 
9:50 PM
(And I don't mean talking about it, I mean preventing it)
 
I don't have to do anything. I want to help resolve this because as I said, we all have the same goal here.
 
I am afraid I have to go in a few minutes, too. My wife usually doesn't spend more than 3 hours in the bathroom in the evening, and it's been two hours and fifty minutes.
 
@RegDwight It would be great if you could pop into the mod room and explain this. Why are post-its needed? Perhaps we can improve the tooling. I'm not sure I see a need for leaving them around, but that conversation is better for the other room.
(whenever you have time, of course)
 
@Dori The message we're hearing from the top is that the site - that I and @Kosmonaut and @Regdwight and many others have spent a huge amount of effort on over the past months is a "litany of standing problems", with "severe quality issues" that are "embarrassing to be associated with".
 
@RebeccaChernoff And not just you, @RegDwight— @Kosmonaut and @nohat, as well.
 
9:54 PM
^ this
 
@RebeccaChernoff I'm afraid I helped start the practice, if they're still using them the same way. I would leave a flag if I wasn't sure how to act on a particular item. A moderator-only chat room would have worked better, of course.
 
@RebeccaChernoff Well, I'm often on the fence. And since this site is about language rather than ones vs zeroes, even doubly so. And since I am not a native speaker, even triply so.
 
So while I really appreciate you coming in here to help, saying "make the site even better" comes across a bit hollow (though I'm sure you didn't intend it that way) :-(
 
@RebeccaChernoff I do hope I can drop by in the chat cast some time and discuss it with others.
 
@RegDwight The mod room is open 24/7.
@psmears I'm just calling it how I see it; I know others differ.
 
9:57 PM
@Dori Fair enough - but can you see how it rubs the community up the wrong way?
 
@Dori I know, but I would like to hear a more or less official response from as high above as possible. I know that if I just ask it in the Teachers Lounge, then the nice folks that are Anna Lear or Mmyers or whoever will just say, "I don't think that's too grave of a problem".
 
@psmears Well, given a choice between "make the site better" and "make the site even better", I thought the latter was less offensive.
 
@psmears The Community, here, still is only a group of people. Not everyone is taking this the same way.
 
@Dori Sorry, I was unclear - in my second comment I didn't mean your comment so much as Jeff's
 
@RegDwight This is about the flags? Maybe, instead, the question should be, "how do other sites handle getting mod consensus on flags?". It's a great place for that kind of brainstorming.
 
10:01 PM
@MrHen That's fair. I'm extrapolating based on the comments I've seen. I don't mean to imply I speak for everyone :-)
 
@psmears Yep, I didn't think you were. I just wanted things to be clear. :)
Hyperbole tends to escalate even if it wasn't intended
 
@Dori Sounds reasonable. But again, I am not sure I could just ask it out of the blue. The chat cast provides a framework where I am kind of expected to be asking stuff like that and people are kind of expected to respond. The daily routine in the Teachers Lounge is a very different setup.
 
@RegDwight We talk about random stuff a lot (hi @random!), but you can always interrupt inanity with a serious question.
 
always
(:
 
@MichaelMyers Me? You sure?
Maybe you can.
This is not the Comprehensible Room.
 
10:03 PM
@RegDwight Except that in the chat cast there's usually 2+ other questions on the table at the same time, and people want to give quick answers—this is one that lends itself to a real discussion.
 
@Dori Good point.
 
10:20 PM
@RegDwight — I think you need another diamond to accommodate your ego. One is not enough.
 
I knew you would say that.
It's certainly no news to you.
 
Hmmm... I'm still hearing that the message is "improve quality" and "close more stuff". But I for one would find it really helpful if someone could put into words the criteria by which we can know that a question that we currently consider "good" is actually "bad"...
 
You make me want to go and delete my own, obviously inferior answer.
 
@Robusto I don't want to make you want do anything.
With the obvious exception of establishing communism in your treeless backyard.
 
But somehow I will resist. Where you see teh awesome I see prolix. If a question can be answered succinctly, it should be.
Anyway, dinner beckons. Just wanted to see if things were improving here. I hope this little jab of the meat thermometer helped.
 
10:25 PM
We'll see. I sure hope so.
My wife will be leaving the bathroom any moment anyhow.
@Robusto Brevity = wit.
K pipl, I'm out for tonight.
Sleep well.
 
Okay, my only starred comment ever has been knocked off the list... not happy!
3
 
10:58 PM
@MrDisappointment We invalidate your statement and substitute rainbows and sunshine.
 
@aedia And unicorns. Don't forget the unicorns.
 
Won't smile without waffles.
From what I gather, nothing has actually been resolved ...right?
 
@MrDisappointment Right :-(
 
And so.. to bed. Goodnight all!
 
I think maybe each party is looking at different 'problems', though, hence calling for different fixes.
 
11:05 PM
(or whatever part of day it happens to be where you are :) )
 
Naturally that's not compatible.
@psmears Catch you later.
 
@psmears G'night!
@MrDisappointment Lilies and waffles for breakfast, then.
 
@aedia Lilies! What the heck am I, a caterpillar? Plus, I don't forage in the AM.
 
11:34 PM
Well, I need to catch some sleep...
 
@MrDisappointment The consensus is that TPTB has decided that English.SE has a lot of newbie, substandard questions
 
@Dori Hopefully a dedicated chat can be set up (I think that's where it was heading, before fizzling out) and gather the objectives of those concerned and concentrate on the ones that matter.
In the mean time, good night.
 
@MrDisappointment That would be great—anyone who wants to set that up, please do so, and just let me know when/where.
 
@restday Is that all? Then that's easily corrected. We can remove them and keep the good ones.
@Dori OK, thanks.
@restday TTYL, too. Got to get some sleep in order to be functional tomorrow.
 

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