English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

z7sg

6:00 PM

That's probably sensible. @Kit too has disclosed little apart from her affiliation with Knight Industries.

Rhodri

How do you tie these ids together? Is there some tool I'm not playing with?

Kit

@z7sg I object! I haver never disclosed my affiliation with Knight Industries.

Alleged affiliation.

Because there is nothing to disclose.

New EL&U question: "nothing to say" v. "nothing to tell" v. "nothing to disclose"

aedia

@Rhodri click Network Profile to start, from someone's user page. But after that, I dunno

z7sg

Just go to 'accounts' on the right below the info panel.

Kit

He claims to be the founder of the anti-SO league.

Who is that SO giant? The one who was elevated to mythological status? Was notorious for being malignant? This guy claimed to be him, but is not.

Rhodri

6:06 PM

Atilla?

(However it's spelled)

Kit

Nope, Sasha.

1

Q: Who is sasha and why is he a big villain?

Saw this on reddit, Vim Tricks your mom never told you about -- VERY DARK CORNERS... published by Sasha: the biggest villian on StackOverflow, and now engraved in its WALL of FAME! and was curious as to what this is all about. Who is this sasha person and what makes them a big villain?

aedia

@Kit So weird.

Kit

But note who the poster is.

Our "Anderson Silva"

As "Andrei"

aedia

@Kit Aaack! It's a creepy conspiracy, is what it is. I bet there's not even any anti-so league.

z7sg

I want to know more about the 'porn' PuzzleCracker incident.

Kit

6:09 PM

@z7sg Me too.

aedia

I bet it's all a story to keep children in line.

Rhodri

They'll tell us when we have enough rep to prise it from their cold, dead fingers. Or something.

z7sg

@aedia It's really a fictitious organisation that is secretly run by Jeff Atwood to tease out potential rebels.

aedia

@z7sg Uh-oh. He's already called us "peculiar". We're sure to be on the watchlist for deviant behavior now :P

z7sg

Uh.. for the transcript.. I love Jeff Atwood!

Or 'Big Jeff' as some people know him.

Rhodri

6:16 PM

Creep

aedia

@z7sg Right! No one said otherwise! Righty-ho! Nothing to look at going on over here!

Rhodri

La la la

z7sg

OK... my weekend starts now! See you guys later!

aedia

@z7sg Ooh, lucky! Have fun :)

Kit

@z7sg Bye! If I find the porn incident, I'll ping you!

There's this reference "That link was submitted to reddit by a user named "puzzlecracker" one of Sasha's aliases on Stack Overflow."

I'm going to guess that he posted a SO question link as a porn site spoof on Reddit to garner traffic.

@aedia So. That's why I said, don't feel too badly.

You know, at least I am not who I say I am not, even if I should not be who I say I am.

aedia

6:24 PM

@Kit I still can't parse that sentence, but I'm just going to go on believing that you're a Fennec fox who works for Knight Industries.

Kit

@aedia No! I have no affiliation with Knight Industries!

That's what I'm saying!

☺

aedia

@Kit Sure, sure.

Kit

Unicorns.

Rhodri

To misquote the great sage Popeye, "I amn't who I amn't."

Kit

@Rhodri Ha ha ha. Good one.

Rhodri

6:29 PM

OK peep, I must begone. I have choir practice, and must pretend to be a tenor.

aedia

I'm out early too. Not for the weekend, though, sadly. Just to get my eyes checked.

Got to get an extra layer on these rose-colored glasses. World ain't what it used to be.

See y'all!

Robert Cartaino

@Jez Your french proposals have been merged and notices sent.

Jez

@Robert thanks! One thing, though - did you see my discussion post on the proposal's description?

@Robert I'm not quite sure why you edited it

Vitaly

6:50 PM

lesswrong.com/r/discussion/lw/6gd/im_becoming_intolerant_help

linked because I find it immensely interesting (I can relate to the OP's experience)

JSBangs

@Vitaly IOWs the OP is acquiring the personality traits of a fundamentalist. this is not surprising, given that he's subscribed to a form of empiricist fundamentalism

Vitaly

Fundamentalism

Fundamentalism is strict adherence to specific theological doctrines typically in reaction against the theology of Modernism. The term "fundamentalism" was originally coined by its supporters to describe a specific package of theological beliefs that developed into a movement within the Protestant community of the United States in the early part of the 20th century, and that had its roots in the Fundamentalist-Modernist Controversy of that time. The term usually has a religious connotation indicating unwavering attachment to a set of irreducible beliefs. "Fundamentalism" is sometimes use...

could you please point out some doctrines?

JSBangs

i'm using the term very loosely

Vitaly

the general methods of empiricism don't count as doctrines, simply because they are not

well then I don't know what you mean by fundamentalist

JSBangs

see, i was about to say that empiricism is a doctrine. but now that you've told me otherwise, i guess that i'm wrong

Vitaly

6:57 PM

a doctrine in my book is a statement that is never updated with respect to evidence

a method for finding out correct statements cannot be a statement

and therefore cannot be a doctrine

and even if it were a statement, if I happened to empirically find a better method, I'd just perform a meta-update and use the new and better method instead; so not a doctrine either way

JSBangs

i was using the word fundamentalist in a vague, metaphorical sense, to refer to any total system of knowledge that (a) claims to be able to rightly understand Truth, (b) denies that any other claimants can rightly know Truth, and (c) offers to its adherents the confidence that they are right, and are thereby better (truer, more knowledgeable, more correct) people for adhering to the tenets of the system

i submit that empirical skepticism is fundamentalist by this definition

we can use a word other than fundamentalist if it makes the discussion more fruitful

Vitaly

it's fine now that you have given a definition

I don't think (b) is right in this case for the reason I described above (if there's a better method, an empirical update of the system of knowledge itself is justified)

anyway, I see some interesting comments there, maybe I'd actually try to assess utility/cost ratio in each case

JSBangs

most systems have meta-principles that can be used to update the operating principles of the system

Vitaly

so far I have been ignoring the costs

JSBangs

in any case, i don't think that this is correct:

11 mins ago, by Vitaly

a method for finding out correct statements cannot be a statement

empiricism is most certainly a statement with a truth value of its own

Vitaly

7:10 PM

ok fine, we agree to disagree, I haven't read the comments yet. :) (edit: link replaced)

JSBangs

@Vitaly i'm pretty sure that we don't have common priors :)

Kit

@JSBangs You've got a rep sheet a mile long, punk.

Vitaly

@JSBangs — I am pretty sure at least one of us is not a genuine Bayesian rationalist either. :P

Kit

Or is it a rap sheet?

@Vitaly Is that like genuine Bayesian leather?

JSBangs

@Kit i'm pretty sure it's a rap sheet

Kit

7:18 PM

Thanks. I'll shut up now and let you boys argue.

JSBangs

meh

Vitaly

Also:

> However, Robin Hanson has presented an argument that Bayesians who agree about the processes that gave rise to their priors (e.g., genetic and environmental influences) should, if they adhere to a certain pre-rationality condition, have common priors

JSBangs

i'm actually more interested in a method for finding out correct statements cannot be a statement

it seems to me that this must be false in the general case. there is no meta-epistemology. a method for finding true statements is itself a statement; there is no way of escaping the the epistemological system by going to a higher level

Vitaly

what's the truth value of a method?

and how do we define it?

JSBangs

the method itself might not have a truth value

Vitaly

7:25 PM

you can use an analogy to an imperative language (as opposed to a functional one like Haskell)

JSBangs

but the statement method X does not prove any false result has a truth value

or method X proves all true results

Vitaly

well those two statements are not methods themselves, they are just that, statements about methods

JSBangs

it seems that these two statements are what we're interested in when we evaluate the "truth" of any epistemological method

whether or not the method itself has a truth value, we can easily construct statements about the method which clearly have a truth value. and, i propose that statements about the method cannot be answered from within the method

i also think that Godel's Theorem should apply here, by a straightforward analogy. but this is all intuition rather than rigorous proof. i'd be interested in actual counterarguments

Vitaly

> i propose that statements about the method cannot be answered from within the method

suppose we have a statement about empiricism: “empiricism produces truer statements about reality than all other methods”

how do we verify that statement empirically?

easy enough, we apply other methods and look at how other people apply other methods

if they are able to produce truer statements, that statement is falsified

empirically.

JSBangs

but this doesn't actually prove anything about empiricism other than the fact that it validates its own results, which is a fairly trivial property for any system to have

Vitaly

7:34 PM

huh? the map–territory (statement–reality) correspondence is outside empiricism

MrHen

@Vitaly Eh? More LW stuffs? ;)

Vitaly

sometimes I actually hate insects… I have just stumbled across a 3-cm-long (1.2 in) bug on my balcony, in the dark.

MrHen

1

Q: No spark of constellation, No Vela no Orion

Can someone tell me the meaning of these two lines in the lyrics: I look up to the heavens But night has clouded over No spark of constellation No Vela no Orion

lyrics

These lyrical questions still have me on the fence

Kit

@Vitaly Dessert!

@MrHen I understand. Usually I don't do interpretations, but this was pretty straightforward = what is a constellation? pretty much.

MrHen

@Kit Agreed. I was tempted to vote that one general reference... since really, the sentences were as straightforward as the words.

But I opted not to.

Kit

7:43 PM

@MrHen Well, I appreciate that, since I answered first. ☺

JSBangs

@Vitaly i think we're talking past each other here. unfortunately i also have real work to do

Vitaly

34 mins ago, by Vitaly

ok fine, we agree to disagree, I haven't read the comments yet. :) (edit: link replaced)

Kit

0

Q: A or an XML report?

Quite simply, should a sentence read "a XML report" or "an XML report"?

american-english writing correctness

Dupe, my peeps!

@Kosmonaut I saw that the information was conveyed to you. Did you have any questions?

We had a lengthy discussion about it just after you left.

JSBangs

@Kit voted to close

Kosmonaut

@Kit I have looked into the RG. account.

I am looking into the situation.

Kit

7:49 PM

@Kosmonaut Ok. Thanks.

Kosmonaut

I obviously can't get into the details.

Kit

@Jez Naughty!

Vitaly

2 hours ago, by Vitaly

Kit

@Kosmonaut I know. I just wanted to make sure you had all our details.

JSBangs

ban both the sock puppet and the puppeteer!

Jez

7:50 PM

@Kit hmm?

Kit

@Jez Don't answer dupes!

Vitaly

@JSBangs — Agree!

Kosmonaut

@Kit Well, Ham & Bacon and RG.... Am I missing any details?

Kit

Probably nothing you wouldn't have seen on your own.

The beginning of our discussion is here: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/1247927#1247927

Jez

1

Tobacco

Proposed Q&A site for smokers, cigar lovers, hookah enthusiasts, and tobacco chewers.

Currently in definition.

... and others who wish to see their lungs blacken.

Kosmonaut

7:53 PM

@Kit Oh, and as far as I know, I can't see deleted comments either. @RegDwight, let me know if I am just totally missing it. I can just see deleted answers and questions.

Kit

@Kosmonaut Well, so long as no one thinks I'm telling stories. I know what I saw, but I don't think anyone else saw it.

Kosmonaut

No problem.

Kit

I've got to run. Y'all have a nice evening, y'hear?

Caleb

@Kit I thought I saw they same thing, but had already started a page refresh because I was getting notices for comments that weren't there, so I couldn't check my eyes. I wasn't surprised when @Kit piped that something was funny. From my perspective it could have been something badly cross-wired in HTML, but SOMETHING happened funny.

Martha

8:27 PM

Mmm... 1812 overture... one of those pieces you cannot get tired of, no matter how many times you hear it. I love the beginning of it especially - the harmonies are absolutely delicious.

(This nonsequitur brought to you by WWFM, The Classical Network.)

Jez

8:45 PM

hey peeps, I'm trying to think of some verb phrases we use in English as a single word (a noun), which we join via hyphenation. I'm having a brainfreeze. I thought of call-to-arms, but that isn't really hyphenated very often. Any ideas?

ahh just thought of one: hold-up

hide-and-seek

down-to-earth

Mr. Disappointment

9:07 PM

Press the ask-question button.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…