English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

alphabet

00:02

@DannyuNDos Often /i/ is actually pronounced as a very short diphthong, something like [ɪ͡i]. If you buy Geoff Lindsey's analysis, the end of that diphthong is actually in the coda of the syllable rather than its nucleus, making [ɪj] a more sensible transcription.

Mitch

@DannyuNDos palatal

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_palatal_approximant

alphabet

The same is true of /u/; it's also often a diphthong, though this is more obvious in contemporary British English, where the starting point is often much further forward, closer to [ʉ].

misk94555

00:55

@DannyuNDos Russian uses "large [большая буква]" and "capital [заглавная буква]" interchangeably for capital letters.

Robusto

01:35

0

A: Is this statement grammatically correct?

Force of attraction between the particles of chalk is weak

Huh? What does that have to do with anything?

alphabet

02:09

The original question only makes slightly more sense, to be fair.

Robusto

02:23

I opened the question because I hate the formulation "Is this sentence grammatically correct?" That renders the question uninformative and unsearchable.

14

Q: "Are these sentences correct?"—Is a title like this enough reason to close a question?

It seems like every other question we get has the title "Are these sentences correct?" Either that, or "Is this grammatical?" Generic question titles make it more difficult to figure out if a question has been asked before. And usually, after you pore over the question like an archaeologist dec...

discussion

Long, long ago I posited this question in Meta. Take a look for how bad the problem really is. @tchrist's answer is awesome.

alphabet

03:10

Word of the day: raccooncidence. "How dare you accuse me of involvement in the recent spate of trash-related incidents? That's a complete raccooncidence."

Mitch

03:48

@Robusto all such questions should be auto-migrated to English Language Learners

Or not even migrated... they're just posted there through the ELU interface

alphabet

@Mitch I think proofreading questions are off-topic there also. A question has to be at least potentially useful to somebody else and we don't want to become a free proofreading service.

CowperKettle

Word of the day: gorp, trail mix

Cerberus

04:32

@Robusto Hmm but how about gramme*?

CowperKettle

> "Polyvinyl chloride (PVC) is the world’s third-most widely produced synthetic polymer..Used in everything from water pipes to vinyl records,PVC has long attracted criticism: a key ingredient is carcinogenic, and its additives include..endocrine disruptors" e360.yale.edu/features/pvc-plastic-un-treaty

Robusto

04:51

@Cerberus Good point.

alphabet

05:58

How rap sounds to non-english speakers

►

M.A.R.

@DannyuNDos sure, same here

CowperKettle

07:09

CowperKettle

10:49

> Researchers estimate that among the world’s children and adolescents, the rate of obesity in 2022 was four times the rate in 1990. While among adults, the obesity rate more than doubled in women and nearly tripled in men. imperial.ac.uk/news/251798/more-than-billion-people-living-with/….

M.A.R.

11:30

@Mitch Hey! ELL is not ELU's trashcan!

Uh, except when it is.

Vikas

13:55

@DannyuNDos In Hindi we literally used to say chhoti/badi (which means small/big) ABCD (alphabets)

Robusto

14:18

Wordle 986 4/6

🟨⬛⬛⬛🟨
⬛⬛🟩⬛⬛
⬛🟩🟩🟩⬛
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

Mitch

14:40

@alphabet Yes, that has always been off-topic.

@M.A.R. Questions with "is this correct?" or "Is this grammatical?" (and variations) are not necessarily trash, but they are definitely signs that they are more likely not to be on-topic for ELU and more likely to be on-topic for ELL. Whether ELU can deal with questions like that (I mean wasn't that the reason ELL was split off, to deal with elementary language learner 'is this right?' kind of questions?) well, that is up to them. If they're trash for ELL then they are definitely trash for ELU

@Vikas All this talk and now I can't remember what you say for English.

miniscule and majuscule are the formal terms, but no one actually uses those unless you're in some nationally televised trivia game.

oh. duh. upper case and lower case.

Or capital and ...

Robusto

@Mitch You might want to look up minuscule.

Mitch

what's the English for the counterpart to 'capitalized character'?

Robusto

Uncapitalized.

Mitch

@Robusto No I think you're mistaken there, I don't really want to do that.

@Robusto Oh.

if not miniscule, what is the counterpart to majuscule?

Robusto

@Mitch I see. You'd rather be an ostrich.

Mitch

14:47

@Robusto Well, not in sand. Maybe a plush comforter? That would be nice.

Robusto

@Mitch Minuscule.

Mitch

@Robusto Oh. Isn't that what I said?

Robusto

Nope.

You might have said it to yourself, but you didn't write it to everyone else.

Mitch

3 mins ago, by Mitch

miniscule and majuscule are the formal terms, but no one actually uses those unless you're in some nationally televised trivia game.

Robusto

Check the spelling.

Mitch

14:49

@Robusto oh come on

But thanks for the fix.

Robusto

Ether there is such a thing as corekt speling or their isn't.

Mitch

@Robusto well you could have just stated "miniscule is considered a non-standard spelling of minuscule"

Robusto

Where's the fun in that?

Mitch

If it's any consolation, I'm finding a lot of replies on twitter are, moreso than in the past, weird simplistic rewrites of the main post. For a human to do that it's like the replier somehow thinks that's what replies are for, to repeat the OP but slightly differently as opposed to remarking on one detail or following up with a question or some other response as opposed to parroting.

What I'm saying is... it feels like a lot of responding on twitter has been automated with a chatgpt-style responding mechanism.

eg: OP= "Fun fact: the northernmost point of Brazil is closer to Canada than it is to the southernmost part of Brazil"

replies:

> That's a fascinating geographic fact! It highlights the vastness of the Americas and how distance can be measured in unexpected ways. Brazil's expansive territory offers a diverse range of climates and landscapes, spanning from the northernmost point close to Canada to the…

Interesting, I don't know what to do with that but Interesting nonetheless

Wow, that's a fascinating fact! The northernmost point of Brazil is located in the state of Amapá, at a point called Cape Orange. This location is approximately 3,676 miles (5,916 kilometers) from the southernmost point of Brazil, which is in …

Similarly, on youtube, I'm finding more and more videos that are simply film clips with the filnm sound replaced by a description of what's going on in the scene.

Like you're watching TV with the sound off but someone is there who has seen it before telling you about what you are watching.

Robusto

15:09

Cf. "reaction videos"

Mitch

But to be fair (if that's the right sentiment) I've seen some of these that aren't very automated.

@Robusto Yes, that must be what it is.

But the 'natural' ones are of the usual tiktok style someone falling down or a dog playing a trick on a cat and some guy ... narrating? yeah just narrating.

so two of those kinds...one kind where the guy is narrating his feelings, like "Young professional opera singer listening to 'Dark Side of the Moon' for the first time and responding to how good it is. And then those where someone is just describing what you are seeing.

The first kind has two kinds, one where its a professional saying professional things, and the other is just some dude off the street saying 'wow, this is awesome I did not expect that'

Anyway, the 'describing what you're watching on TV seems 1) really stupid, 2) easily automated (but for what purpose I can't fathom (see 1)), and 3) already automated (it's using these automated voices working off scripts that are probably already automated).

You know why I think they're automated?

Their spelling is better than mine.

jlliagre

15:36

@Mitch Minuscule and majuscule are the usual, both formal and informal way to call them in French and other Romance languages, e.g. minúscula/mayúscula / minuscola/maiuscola. Prescriptivists want us to call them lettres capitales and insist to make a difference between capitales (appearance) and majuscules (grammar). In typography, we might also use base de casse et haut de casse, but it's rare.

Sorry: bas de casse.

Wordle 986 5/6

⬛🟩⬛⬛🟨
⬛🟨⬛⬛⬛
🟨🟩🟩⬛⬛
🟩🟩🟩🟩⬛
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

@Robusto Nicely symmetrical.

Mitch

"a difference between capitales (appearance) and majuscules (grammar)"... what? I don't get the difference.

Conrado

When I was a child, in USA, learning to read and write, I learned to call them "big letters" and "small letters" first, iirc.

jlliagre

16:03

@Mitch If you write that sentence: LA CAPITALE DE LA FRANCE EST PARIS, they say only the first letters of La, France, and Paris are majuscules while the remaining ones are just capitals so capitale has no capitals... On the other hand, if I decide to write la capitale de la france est paris because I feel like it, then these three letters are still majuscules, despite being written in lowercase. That's a little capillotracté.

capillotracté

== Français == === Étymologie === (1971 ?) Du latin capillus (« cheveu ») et tractatus participe passé de tractare (« tirailler », « tirer avec force »). Une légende urbaine tenace voudrait que le mot soit sorti de l’esprit de l’humoriste Pierre Desproges. === Adjectif === capillotracté \ka.pi.lo.tʁak.te\ masculin (Sens figuré) (Par plaisanterie) Tiré par les cheveux. Quant à SANS MOBILE APPARENT, de Philippe Labro […] En outre, le scénario de Labro est très « capillotracté » comme dirait mon maître à penser San-Antonio… De ce pauvre coloriage politicopolicier émerge seulement, comme ...

Mitch

@jlliagre sigh... fine... L'Académie has to earn their keep somehow I guess.

Pulling hairs is better than pulling teeth.

Back to my head under the comforter.

@Conrado yeah that seems extremely normal. I can't remember how this conversation started, but I don't get how it went further than that.

jlliagre

@Mitch There are also "small big letters" like ᴛʜᴇꜱᴇ ᴏɴᴇꜱ ;-)

Mitch

16:26

@jlliagre I can't hear what you're saying. My head is under the covers.

jlliagre

@Mitch WAKE UP! THAT'S A CAPITAL TOPIC!

I just heard an American pronouncing "poems" like "poms", is it usual? I was expecting a diphthong.

Mitch

16:46

@jlliagre I pronounce it as two syllables /'pow əm/ or /'pow m/ (a syllabic 'm') and I hear most people saying it that way. But often enough I hear peoples saying it distinctly differently, with one syllable to rhyme with 'tome' or 'loam': /powm/. I'd still call that a diphthong technically because as an American I don't naturally 'hear' the glide following the 'o'.

But as subtle as it might seem, when someone says the single syllable version, it really stands out to me. It doesn't sound characteristic of an accent (though it may well be, I just don't know).

It's not ... wrong exactly, it just sounds ... I don't know... like a mistake?

But enouigh people say it that way I suppose.

It's like the opposite of 'often'. You're not supposed to pronounce the 't' but everybody does. That one sticks in my craw.

Conrado

I had a crawdad stick in my craw once.

Fun fact: "craw" in crawdad is thought to come from Old French crevice through various fanciful deviations, rather than the craw in which things stick.

According to etymonline.com/word/crayfish

Mitch

17:07

@Conrado That's bigger than a piece of popcorn

tchrist

19:02

@jlliagre Lᴀ Cᴀᴘɪᴛᴀʟᴇ ᴅᴇ ʟᴀ Fʀᴀɴᴄᴇ Eꜱᴛ Pᴀʀɪꜱ.

Lambie

@Mitch Southerners often do that.

alphabet

19:17

@Lambie I pronounce it that way also: poem rhymes with comb.

Robusto

20:18

@jlliagre Yes. That's what I was going for. ^_^

Robusto

21:01

Daily Octordle #767
4️⃣5️⃣
6️⃣🔟
8️⃣7️⃣
9️⃣🕚
Score: 60

@jlliagre You know, anyone can complete a Wordle puzzle, but few can do it with symmetry, that added bit of panache.

Daily Sequence Octordle #767
4️⃣5️⃣
6️⃣8️⃣
9️⃣🔟
🕚🕛
Score: 65

MetaEd

21:57

Wordle 986 4/6

⬛⬛⬛🟨🟨
⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛
⬛🟩⬛⬛⬛
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

Robusto

@MetaEd Pfft. Where's the symmetry?

MetaEd

@Robusto look past the 2D projection

user 85795

that^

tchrist

22:17

Over precisely which sunk costs did people for centuries find it so hard to get?

Robusto

@tchrist Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which you refuse to put?

user 85795

classic example of one of the downsides of "drill and kill" in grade school

Robusto

@user85795 Funny, I thought it was "krill and dill" ...

user 85795

:D

tchrist

> Little boys should not loll on chairs.

The Master of the house lolled, half-dressed, in an armchair by the hearth.

I think that one actually works.

> intransitive. (The chief current sense.) To lean idly; to recline or rest in a relaxed attitude, supporting oneself against something. Also with about, back, out.

Lollygagging.

user 85795

22:30

Alignment with Latin sounds so conformist, no?

tchrist

Gollylagging.

@user85795 No, it sounds like it's perverting a Germanic language.

user 85795

🤔

tchrist

You can see that the main site’s George typeface has no keming pairs. The Georgia Pro typeface does, but I don't believe that's freely available.

Robusto

22:46

@tchrist I hope Georgia Pro doesn't kern the r and the n together in sumame.

tchrist

Suriname

Suriname ( SOOR-ih-NAM, -⁠NAHM, Dutch: [syːriˈnaːmə] ), officially the Republic of Suriname (Dutch: Republiek Suriname [reːpyˌblik ˌsyːriˈnaːmə]), is a country in northern South America, sometimes considered part of the Caribbean and the West Indies. Situated slightly north of the equator, over 90% of its territory is covered by rainforests, the highest proportion of forest cover in the world. Suriname is bordered by the Atlantic Ocean to the north, French Guiana to the east, Guyana to the west, and Brazil to the south. It is the smallest country in South America by both population and territory...

@Robusto I just find the acute on the LATIN SMALL LETTER I WITH ACUTE is a little too chummy with the RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK, and the s following it too far away.

user 85795

I concur.

tchrist

Those are all at 72 points. They're the different cuts of Arno Pro, each optimized for a different size. I arranged them in descending order of what sizes they were cut and optimized for.

Arno (typeface)

Arno, or Arno Pro, is a serif type family created by Robert Slimbach at Adobe intended for professional use. The name refers to the river that runs through Florence, a centre of the Italian Renaissance. Arno is an old-style serif font, drawing inspiration from a variety of 15th and 16th century typefaces. Slimbach has described the design as a combination of the period's Aldine and Venetian styles, with italics inspired by the calligraphy and printing of Ludovico degli Arrighi.Arno was released in five optical sizes: separate fonts for different text sizes from captions to headings. In addition...

Notably, those are ALL of them in the same supposed weight. None of them is the "bold" or "black" version!!

So the smaller you get, the more room he gives each letter.

So that you can still read them.

When you normalize them all to 72 pts like I've done, you can see just what he's doing.

The stroke widths get thicker as you get to the smaller cuts.

Oh I should have used a real italic D.

MetaEd

23:10

plain old Pica is good enough for me ... 'cause I'm not Elite

user 85795

Elitism is on the rise, this time prefixed by "cyber."

jlliagre

@tchrist English capitalization :-)

tchrist

@jlliagre You noticed ! :)

Those are some of the alternate glyph forms in Light Display Italic, mostly swash capitals for true italic.

The lower case d has five possible glyphs.

No six.

More elsewhere.

Five kinds of lowercase g.

jlliagre

Daily Octordle #767
7️⃣🕛
5️⃣🟥
🕚9️⃣
🕐3️⃣
Score: 74

anyone can complete a Wordle puzzle or not.

Daily Sequence Octordle #767
4️⃣5️⃣
6️⃣7️⃣
8️⃣9️⃣
🔟🕐
Score: 62

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…