English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

CowperKettle

1:45 AM

The tennis court where the French Revolution started.

CowperKettle

2:30 AM

CowperKettle

4:36 AM

> A Florida man pulled a gun on a drive-thru worker because she forgot the cream cheese with his bagel. The 23-year-old employee happened to be the daughter of the Miami Gardens police chief.

Celebration, Florida

Celebration is a census-designated place (CDP) and a master-planned community in Osceola County, Florida, United States, located near Walt Disney World Resort and originally developed by The Walt Disney Company. The town, whose population was 7,427 at the 2010 census, is part of the Orlando–Kissimmee Metropolitan Statistical Area.After founding Celebration, Disney followed its plans to divest most of its control of the town. Several Disney business units continue to occupy the town's office buildings. Walt Disney World operates two utility companies, Smart City Telecom and Reedy Creek Energy Services...

Oh. Celebration, Florida is a real place, it turns out.

CowperKettle

6:16 AM

Amazing High Voltage Water Bridge ( Water Thread) Defies Gravity! Fascinating Science

►

M.A.R.

10:16 AM

@Cerberus Well, frankly, there's of course circumstantial evidence that this was a masquerade, when no major players were approved as candidates, even 'hardliner' conservatives, but I haven't seen any good evidence about any election fraud (of course, they might be out there). So I won't buy allegations of election fraud and made up numbers, but thanks to US propaganda they're a pretty common set of rumors among the youth.

And anyway, I do think that we have a pretty heterogenous population when it comes to voting, and lots of people do precisely as they're told, even when they would admit the government is full of shit. (They would say "the government is corrupt, the regime is good or at least redeemable") People I would meet on online chats are likely to be young, avid BBC watchers, and pretty much against voting, but they're not a representative sample, I don't think.

So I have no cause not to believe the numbers, and Raisi ran for president last time and lost too, so yeah

Obviously it doesn't have to mean they're honest, just that they would want to convince themselves they value people or whatever.

I think the voters have decreased quite a bit anyway.

@Mitch well, let's see what happens. I think one thing's for sure and that's more of the same barks and bared teeth at America. Though maybe about everything else, his people would work extra hard to clean up the messes he would make so he'd have a not-too-disastrous approval rating for when he ascends the throne

CowperKettle

10:46 AM

گوش کن
خاموش ها گویاترند
در خموشی های من فریادهاست...
فریدون مشیری

CowperKettle

10:57 AM

Putin's former Eminense Grise said that Putin is Russia's Octavian, and people started making memes

CowperKettle

11:27 AM

> By applying localization image reconstruction algorithms3 to peak positions in high-speed AFM and conventional AFM data, we increase the resolution beyond the limits set by the tip radius, and resolve single amino acid residues on soft protein surfaces in native and dynamic conditions.

nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03551-x

CowperKettle

11:43 AM

"Down with the Communist Party of the Soviet Union". Soviet punks sitting on a tank in central Moscow during the failed coup in August 1991

Goes to prove that punks were never the brightest tool in the shed.

Famous Russian rock musician Alexander Bashlachev killed himself in 1988 aged 27

His son killed himself today, aged just 32.

Depression sometimes runs in families.

I remember translating that case report about a talented young man who constantly wanted to kill himself, and it turned out that he had a rare form of BH4 deficiency.

I still haven't managed to create an article in the Russian Wikipedia about this form of BH4 deficiency. I recall it now and then, and think "I should do it"

CowperKettle

1:57 PM

The next week in Moscow will be the warmest-ever, breaking the records of 1901. tvrain.ru/news/…

Two men got drunk in Novosibirsk, and one took a knife and cut out a varicose vein in the other's leg. The operation ended in death due to profuse bleeding.

Surgery is a risky profession.

Maybe that was how surgery started in the first place. Two cavemen got drunk, and one decided to fix some issue surgically.

Vein stripping

Vein stripping is a surgical procedure done under general or local anaesthetic to aid in the treatment of varicose veins and other manifestations of chronic venous disease. The vein "stripped" (pulled out from under the skin using minimal incisions) is usually the great saphenous vein. The surgery involves making incisions (usually the groin and medial thigh), followed by insertion of a special metal or plastic wire into the vein. The vein is attached to the wire and then pulled out from the body. The incisions are stitched up and pressure dressings are often applied to the area.An overnight hospital...

Hm. It's not clear from the article what is done to replace the circulation lost due to the stripping.

Mitch

2:35 PM

@CowperKettle with the term 'stripping' that sounds really awful. Like stripping paint

But the saphenous vein was the one usually used to replace blocked coronary arteries after heart attacks

I think they more often use nowadays the... It's one in the pectoral area! The 'mammary' vein?

Coronary artery bypass surgery

Coronary artery bypass surgery, also known as coronary artery bypass graft (CABG, pronounced "cabbage") surgery, and colloquially heart bypass or bypass surgery, is a surgical procedure to restore normal blood flow to an obstructed coronary artery. A normal coronary artery transports blood to the heart muscle itself, not through the main circulatory system. There are two main approaches. In one, the left internal thoracic artery, LITA (also called left internal mammary artery, LIMA) is diverted to the left anterior descending branch of the left coronary artery. In this method, the artery is "pedicled...

LIMA or LITA, left internal mammary/thoracic artery

@CowperKettle there is supposedly good redundancy for circulation in the hands and feet, but I can't remember if that holds for thigh or upper arm, or even the superficial chest like in LIMA

CowperKettle

3:42 PM

> Scientists got together to study the effects of alcohol on a person's walk, and the result was staggering.

Robusto

5:23 PM

@M.A.R. I'm sorry to hear it. My condolences. Now I see news stories citing "apathy" of the electorate as the reason he was elected, but isn't this something that would have been stage-managed in any case by the government?

CowperKettle

5:39 PM

> Iran’s System Keeps Its Grip. Governments rooted in revolution like Tehran’s have proved to be among the world’s most stable, even drawing strength from crises. nytimes.com/2021/06/20/world/middleeast/…

M.A.R.

7:46 PM

@CowperKettle words are wind.

2

I like how sensational they are about Iran. Either the regime is being crushed under pressure, or prevailing against all odds. The reality is much more boring

@Robusto there's apathy, sure. I don't need to look further than myself to see that, but again there's the proles that would live miserably and vote and behave and die in wars, they'd react the same under the Qajar Iran. I mean, look how clueless that 40% of Americans can be. Now if the same people were living in a pseudo-feudal system as late as the 1970s . . . Well.

The numbers don't fool anybody though, and almost everyone admits this, even people who voted Raisi: That the other three were a bunch of nobodies with single digit percentages of votes. So when some of the most key players in the regime are denied, and you have someone like Trump but even less charismatic running against essentially the equivalent of indeps in America.

The victory was guaranteed. Nobody pretended that it wasn't. So I dunno if I call that staged or not, just that the government didn't even need to put in any effort that staging things implies

Robusto

8:07 PM

@M.A.R. Yeah. It's amazing how people all over the world acquiesce to horrible governance.

tchrist

@M.A.R. That's not what I took away from the referenced article.

Cerberus

8:38 PM

@M.A.R. Makes sense.

The turn-out still seems surprisingly high, though.

Mitch

@M.A.R. But that's sort of the feeling I get in every story ever in any news.

I mean it could all be worse.

It could be raining.

or

maybe you desperately need rain and it's not raining.

either way

Bohemian relativist

this country seems not to have cooler s commonly.

Mitch

Do you mean 'air conditioning'?

Bohemian relativist

this if occurs in Chinese island would be the most absurd thing.

Mitch

Some appliance that cools a room?

Bohemian relativist

8:49 PM

yes

there are only heaters commonly here

but it's so hot now.

Mitch

So are you saying that Chinese island buildings all have air conditioning?

Bohemian relativist

how do you study without a cooler here?

@Mitch yes, at least all public workplaces have coolers.

most rented rooms also have coolers.

Mitch

You're in Northern Europe right? Usually (= historically) it only gets uncomfortably hot in August and maybe not even then, so there is usually no need at all for airconditioning

Bohemian relativist

no, it has been crazily hot now.

Mitch

but for the past twenty years are so it has become worse and worse. I suspect more northern European buildings will feel obligated to install air conditioning.

Bohemian relativist

8:52 PM

I am not in northern Europe.

Mitch

@Bohemianrelativist I visited mainland China once as a tourist and I noticed that almost all shops - from the whole range of grocery stores, banks, gift stores, absolutely anything that had a sign and door right on the street, did not have a door or window, just a fully open missing wall on the front. Meaning they were totally open to the outside, whether hot summer or cold winter.

2

@Bohemianrelativist OK maybe southern Europe too!

But I don't remember visiting office buildings, so they could easily have good air conditioning and I wouldn't know.

@Bohemianrelativist I think @CowperKettle has been saying that central Russia (Yekaterinburg) has been unusually hot this June too.

Bohemian relativist

@Mitch I have stayed in Beijing for over one month but because it's in April and first half of May, where there was still no need for cooler, so I don't know if they have coolers commonly.

Cerberus

9:11 PM

@Mitch This building, to wit, my apartment, certainly has!

Boyfriend and I bought the same unit.

Last week.

Bohemian relativist

give me a cooler.

the buildings here are very strange - they have windows which would let everything come in if let open.

they don't have a screen window which would only let air in, not insects.

so you can only keep the window close most of time, but that would be so hot but there is no cooler.

Robusto

@Mitch I remember going to a jazz concert in Paris (L'Olympia, I think) around this time of year, where the lobby was air-conditioned but the concert hall was not. And everybody was smoking, IIRC. We had to leave halfway through the concert because it was so unbearable.

I have never said the word avalanche in chat. Until now.

Mitch

10:20 PM

@Robusto Chapeau!

@Bohemianrelativist No screens against insects sounds very northern European also. Or central European. Or ...hm are window screens an American thing?

@Cerberus Is it a window install or is it stand-alone with a duct that snake to the outside?

Cerberus

@Mitch The latter.

Window units are unavailable here.

Nor would they fit my windows.

Bohemian relativist

@Mitch Chinese island's windows almost all have screen. It's very strange there is no screen here.

there is also no cooler. so what to do indoors when the weather is so hot now?

I think they should follow Chinese island to produce the screen windows so that we can keep the windows open in summer.

Mitch

@Cerberus In the US the big (1x2x3 ft window units) come with extenders on the side to fit in windows that are wider. (the sliding part of the window above closes off things vertically.

Cerberus

@Mitch The opening is only about 35 cm high in my window.

Mitch

@Bohemianrelativist Screens are reasonably cheap. I suppose it's just not the culture to install them in Europe.

@Cerberus Is there a window pane that slides down? Or is the height exactly what it is and you can't close things off?

@Cerberus Do you know if there are screens -or- AC commonly used southern Europe in apartments? (ie not talking about businesses)

Bohemian relativist

10:36 PM

@Mitch very strange culture. then how to keep the indoor air fresh?

in Chinese island, we always keep the window open in summer if we don't have the air conditioner on.

because the window screen is always closed, keeping window open doesn't let insect come in.

Cerberus

@Mitch There is a pane that slides up, but only by up to ca. 35 cm.

Mitch

@Bohemianrelativist Hope for no insects?

Cerberus

@Mitch I'm not sure I understand.

tchrist

@Bohemianrelativist Not having a screen for the window is unheard of in private homes, at least outside of a desert-like environment that's free of evil insects.

Cerberus

AC is quite common in southern Europe.

Mitch

10:39 PM

Europeans are really into 'fresh air' so I think they don't mind insects or there are very few insects.

Cerberus

Do you mean screens against mosquitos, or against the sun?

Mitch

@Cerberus insects

Cerberus

Insect screens are probably fairly common in southern Europe.

Mitch

see through, let's air through, but totally closed off so no insects can get hrough

Cerberus

In Holland, they are very common, much more so than A/C.

But rental apartments probably won't come with screens installed.

tchrist

10:41 PM

@Cerberus And apparently emblematic of sybaritic decadence in the north of Europe, as though it were somewhere that ice never melts even on the summer solstice.

Cerberus

@tchrist Yes, although that is changing rapidly, what with climate change.

tchrist

@Cerberus No, not so much in Spain.

Cerberus

For the first time since...I don't know, since dinosaurs roamed our lands, 40 degrees was recorded last year.

@tchrist When I was in Granada, snow covered Al Hambra.

Mitch

I remember, on a different trip than the one to China, in northern Europe, on a warm late May/early June evening, leaving the windows open in the evening to get a little breeze and...

tchrist

It was 108 when I drove through Nebraska the other day.

Cerberus

10:43 PM

That is all I have seen of Spain.

Mitch

...and millions of midges swarmed in around the inside lights.

Cerberus

But I have seen lots of screens in Italy or France. No idea about the proportion, though.

tchrist

@Cerberus It's normal for snow to cover the Sierra Nevada above Granada; hence the name. :) But lower? Not so common.

Cerberus

Rented vacation houses are probably different from real ones.

Mitch

and in the morning we had to sweep up a big clump of dead midges.

tchrist

10:44 PM

@Cerberus Yes, I've seen them in France. Didn't pay attention in Italy.

Cerberus

@tchrist I think it was the first time in twenty years.

tchrist

@Mitch Were you burning those poison lights?

Cerberus

This reminds me that I should make screens for my own house, against mice and mosquiti and moths.

Or perhaps have them made; a friend of mine does wood-working.

Mitch

@tchrist nope. I think they just tired themselves out with all their midging.

tchrist

To pass from west to east across the Hundredth is like entering the land of milk and honey before the Fall.

Mitch

10:46 PM

@Cerberus I did that once. for just one window. It takes a lot longer than it looks.

I would b=never choose to do that myself again.

Cerberus

@Mitch How did you do it?

What materials?

Mitch

@Cerberus 1) screen stuff

2) um...

hmm

can't remember

the screeny part of the screen in a big sheet

then

a

screen frame?

tchrist

It is stunning to go suddenly from dusty dryland steppe to uberous greenlands overflowing with nature's bounty.

Mitch

yeah the frame

Cerberus

I was thinking of cutting out a fitting rectangle in styrofoam, then sticking screen stuff onto it.

Mitch

10:49 PM

and some rubber/plastic ... thing?

Cerberus

Hmm rubber/plastic, what for?

Mitch

you mush the screen into a little slot in the frame with the rubber plastic thingy

Cerberus

Hmm a pre-made frame?

tchrist

They're uberous greenlands because there are no ubers to their west. Tubers eithers.

Mitch

it's longer and mushy, you string it all around the edge of the frame

@Cerberus yes

Cerberus

10:51 PM

How did you ensure that the frame fit your window opening?

Mitch

the hard part is getting the screen itself to be taught in all four directions.

NSEW

@Cerberus standards?

Cerberus

Oh, we have no standards here.

Mitch

the screen frame was bought to fit the window, and window sizes are pretty standard in the US. very few choices.

Cerberus

My window isn't even truly rectangular...

tchrist

@Cerberus Hobbit round?

Hard to get screens for those.

Cerberus

10:52 PM

More like a lozenge.

tchrist

Custom work is dear but perhaps worth it. Were it truly your name on the deed.

Cerberus

Well, the 18th-century windows are more rectangular than the 17th-century ones.

tchrist

I have crazy shaped windows. Had to get custom-made shades.

Mitch

@Cerberus How fashionable

Cerberus

I shall measure and cut the styrofoam myself. That shouldn't be too hard, should it? Just ugky.

Mitch

10:55 PM

@Cerberus vive la mode!

tchrist

Do you have double pane or triple pane glass on your windows?

Mitch

@Cerberus styrofoam? for what?

tchrist

@Mitch That way it comes with ice cream.

Mitch

a la mode de Caen

Cerberus

Each window is 4 or 6 panes.

Each pane is one sheet of glass.

tchrist

10:56 PM

No, double-pane means layers deep.

Cerberus

But an extra sheet was mounted on top of each quartet or duo of panes.

tchrist

It's for insulation against the bitter winds of winter.

Cerberus

So the insulation is fairly poor.

Mitch

@tchrist with nitrogen pumped in between to keep out stray cosmic rays

tchrist

Sometimes these are called storm windows. You replace them with screens in the summer.

The same slot fits both.

Bohemian relativist

10:58 PM

@Mitch there are many insects. Every time I let the windows open, there are insects flying in.

tchrist

So you either have screens in for bugs or glass in for cold.

Mitch

or you have a double slotted frame where both are installed and you slide one up out of use and the other down to use.

tchrist

@Bohemianrelativist You live in a very buggy place now. :/

@Mitch Oh that's right, those half-jobbers.

Bohemian relativist

@tchrist just a usual city.

tchrist

@Bohemianrelativist Well, it's moist. Humid.

Cerberus

11:00 PM

This is one of the more rectangular windows.

Mitch

@Bohemianrelativist mosquitos of moths or what?

tchrist

@Bohemianrelativist Oh I was wrong. You only get around 21 inches of moisture per year where you are now, which is only a little more than I normally get.

Cerberus

It cannot be opened at all except by unscrewing those...butterfly screws.

It has two siblings.

One slides down a bit, the other up.

Neither very far.

Mitch

hm

You should just move

tchrist

Awkward.

Bohemian relativist

11:02 PM

@Mitch moths, mosquitoes, butterflies and others I don't know the names.

tchrist

@Bohemianrelativist I would not begrudge a butterfly entry.

Mitch

butterflies seem like they'd be OK to have. The rest... no.

@tchrist jinx

tchrist

Mosquitos and little biting bugs are not good. And others can still annoy. Mosquito-borne diseases are terrible in some parts of the world. In many, to be honest.

Cerberus

@Mitch There is nothing to move to that costs less than thrice my rent.

Mitch

@tchrist malaria used to be a problem in Northern Europe

Cerberus

11:05 PM

Kitchen window. This one is probably the most rectangular.

Mitch

@Cerberus a villa in the countryside.

Cerberus

@Mitch But I cannot live there.

Bedroom window. These are diamond-shaped.

Mitch

@Cerberus a mountain chalet?

Cerberus

A what chalet?

Mitch

mountain

in the mountains

above a ski slope

Cerberus

11:07 PM

Means nothing to me.

tchrist

@Mitch How far north? I think of it as one of those jungle and bayou scourges down in Dixie.

Mitch

like in switzerland

Cerberus

Is that like a knoll?

Mitch

with your own personal ski lift

tchrist

@Mitch Or in Colorado.

Cerberus

11:08 PM

@tchrist Holland is a big swamp.

Mitch

@Cerberus a really big knoll

Cerberus

We used to have lots of malaria, perhaps even into the 17th century.

Mitch

@tchrist Denmark?

tchrist

@Cerberus You need to rise above your history!

Mitch

I read a thing

was it Henry Miller?

The girl dies of malaria

@tchrist Exactly

Cerberus

11:09 PM

@tchrist We have sunk, rather.

Mitch

far above the insects

and tourists

@Cerberus maybe that's the story I read

I've only read one story about each country

Cerberus

@Mitch How many inches?

Mitch

@Cerberus a lot

like more than

just a lot

tchrist

Malaria is a tropical disease. I question its presence in the high latitudes.

> Malaria is found in more than 100 countries, mainly in tropical regions of the world, including:

large areas of Africa and Asia
Central and South America
Haiti and the Dominican Republic
parts of the Middle East
some Pacific islands

Malaria is not found in the UK – it may be diagnosed in travellers who return to the UK from risk areas.

Mitch

@tchrist yeah that's what's weird. we expect it to only appear in tropical places. but supposedly it was a problem in some parts of Northern Europe, like the Netherlands or Denmark, depending on which story you read.

Cerberus

11:13 PM

@Mitch Like four?

That's more than I have heads.

tchrist

> Danish health authorities reported 94 imported malaria cases in 2017, a number roughly on a par with the level recorded in the past few years–about 100 cases per year. Compared with 2014, 2015 and 2016, the year 2017 recorded a lower occurrence of vivax malaria among refugees arriving to Denmark from Eritrea/Ethiopia.

Mitch

@Cerberus oh. Way more. Like.. a lot more.

8?

tchrist

All imports.

Mitch

@tchrist We're talking about 19th or 18th c

wait

Cerb said 17th?

I can't read

tchrist

waits

Mitch

11:15 PM

or scroll back to where he said it

Cerberus

> Tot ca. 1920 kwam malaria overigens ook nog endemisch in Nederland voor. Vlak na de Tweede Wereldoorlog waren er in Nederland ca. 10.000 gevallen van malaria per jaar. Dit hoge aantal kan mede worden verklaard door het stoppen van de 'kininisatie' tijdens de Duitse bezetting en door verminderde bemaling van polders door brandstofschaarste.[1]
Pas in 1959 werd 'inheemse' malaria voor het laatst geconstateerd in Nederland, en in 1970 kreeg Nederland als een van de laatste landen in Europa het predicaat 'malariavrij' van de Wereldgezondheidsorganisatie.[2]

Mitch

@Cerberus Exactly

well

I didn't read it there

tchrist

> Sixty years ago Professor Nico Swellengrebel wrote his famous book 'Malaria in the Netherlands' (Swellengrebel and de Buck, 1938). At that time tertian malaria was still endemic, with its epidemic ups and downs. Malaria disappeared as recently as 1960 and the Rockefeller Foundation (RF) contributed substantially to this effect.

"tertian"

> Pathology. Of a fever or ague: Characterized by the occurrence of a paroxysm every third (i.e. every alternate) day.

Mitch

bunch of terts

not a jinx

Cerberus

So I'm sure it was still quite common in the 17th century.

> De verdwijning van autochtone malaria tertiana uit Nederland berust op een combinatie van een aantal factoren:[23]

- De behandeling eerst met kinine en later met plasmochine, waardoor het aantal gezonde dragers van malariaparasieten verminderde.
- De gerichte bestrijding van A. maculipennis atroparvus door te spuiten met o.a. DDT.
- De verzoeting van het water in Noord-Holland en Friesland na de afsluiting van de Zuiderzee in 1932. Het aantal muggen van de soort A. maculipennis nam daardoor af. Bovendien kwam de A. maculipennis atroparvus, die brak water voor het broeden prefere…

tchrist

11:18 PM

Autochthon I grok but not this Tertian thing. Sounds like a painter.

Cerberus

Perhaps brought in by third parties?

Like ships or travellers?

Mitch

triurnal?

Cerberus

Those are also the cause of malaria cases here today.

Oh, wait, it is probably just the name of the (sub)species.

> malaria tertiana

tchrist

Oh.,

Mitch

isn't malaria characterized by periodic fever? like you have an awful flu like fever, then things get better like it is over, and then it comes back. Every other day?

Cerberus

11:21 PM

By the way, I got my first vaccination shot to-day.

Mitch

Every day?

@Cerberus Woo Hoo!

tchrist

> Plasmodium falciparum (Malaria tropica), Plasmodium ovale, and Plasmodium vivax (Malaria tertiana)

Cerberus

And 17-y-os are now also allowed to make vaccination appointments.

tchrist

@Cerberus Holy cow! I hadn't realized you guys were still lagging so badly, but I hadn't heard otherwise either.

Mitch

Cerb is so young and it's taken them that long to get everybody above his age

Cerberus

11:22 PM

I could have made the appointment for the 11th, but today suited me better.

tchrist

Yes, "Plasmodium" was the name I attached to the organism.

Cerberus

We're now around 50% vaccinated, I think.

Or was it 50% of adults.

Mouth caps will no longer be worn from the 26th, except in public transportation.

Mitch

I think we were lucky it wasn't like 1918 where it was mostly killing people in their 20's

or infants

Cerberus

Quite.

Although I like old people?

Nobody I know has died.

Mitch

I know it's already been a year and some but I feel like I haven't heard that?

Cerberus

11:25 PM

A few people I know got infected.

Mitch

@Cerberus it's bad for everybody

Cerberus

Less than a handful suffered long-term symptoms. Only one was unable to work for a longer time.

So I suppose I'm lucky.

Mitch

@Cerberus same here but only 20 year olds who got at worst a little woozy

Cerberus

Good for you.

The virus hit poor and allochthonous people much worse here.

Especially the latter.

I.e. non-Western immigrants.

Mitch

@Cerberus but the homeochthonous tended not to be in jobs that were in your face?

@Cerberus what kind of western immigrants are there? Poles? Portuguese?

Cerberus

11:28 PM

Yes, that is one reason: non-Western immigrants are poor and don't have office jobs which they could do from home.

@Mitch Basically people from any Western-European country.

Our largest group of immigrants are Germans.

Then Brits, Belgians, Frenchmen, something like that.

Another reason is small hice.

A third one is lots of contact with grandparents, even living together.

A fourth one is cultural: more physical, less 'cold' than Dutchmen. And less inclined to follow rules.

And now it turns out they are not getting vaccinated, because they believe in conspiracies...

All very saddening.

Mitch

@Cerberus are they permanent transferees? Or are they just there temporarily?

Cerberus

Both.

Migration is just easiest for people living nearby.

Mitch

right

Cerberus

> Tegenwoordig wonen er ongeveer 370.000 Duitsers in Nederland.

And I think these are just people who actually have German nationality.

Many others of recent German descent won't.

Mitch

won't what?

Cerberus

11:33 PM

Have German nationality.

Mitch

won't have German... oh

Cerberus

So they won't show up in statistics.

Whereas Turks and Moroccans almost always have double nationality.

Mitch

.Before the EU, was the border still mostly very fluid with Germany?

Cerberus

Yes.

But do you mean the Schengen treaty (open borders), the actual EU (1995?), or its praedecessors?

Mitch

Oh, sure, Schengen was before EU, right?

When did Schengen start? EU was 73? but EU wasn't open borders, Schengen was, right?

Cerberus

11:39 PM

The EU was officially established in the Treaty of Maastricht of 1993, it seems.

Before that, it was called the EC; and even earlier, the EEC.

And before that the ECSC.

Mitch

oh. EC was what I was thinking

Cerberus

European Coal and Steel Community

The European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) was an organisation of six European countries created after World War II to regulate their industrial production under a centralised authority. It was formally established in 1951 by the Treaty of Paris, signed by Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, and West Germany. The ECSC was the first international organisation to be based on the principles of supranationalism, and started the process of formal integration which ultimately led to the European Union. The ECSC was first proposed by French foreign minister Robert Schuman on 9 May...

Of course it has always been the French.

We can mock them, but they get things done.

Now they are working on industrial policy, for which they have at last found momentum.

Mitch

d'Estaing was behind the Euro? I think?

Cerberus

I think he was earlier?

But maybe he started the process?

I should not be surprised if France had been behind that, too!

Cerberus

11:58 PM

@tchrist Look, we're only 2.3 percentage points behind you.

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