English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2018-08-21

« first day (2840 days earlier) ← previous day next day → last day (2074 days later) »

12:52 AM

@ledonter First its meaning was "heroic deed".

Later it came to mean "a story about heroic deeds".

Hence = from there / because of that.

What part, exactly, did you find difficult to understand?

1 hour later…

2:17 AM

@ledonter Interesting. If I am reading correctly, a jest was originally a tale of heroic deeds, which later was used sarcastically and ended up with the opposite meaning.

Or rather, first it was the deed itself, then later the tale of the deed, and then finally the sarcastic joke version.

2:33 AM

I'm just used to read 'hence' in context of smth like "cats and dogs fell from the sky one day, hence 'raining cats and dogs'" (stupid, yeah, but proves the point)
So I figured 'a narrative ...' could be an idiom
But here apparently it's not
Anyway, I got it, thanks

Good!

3:34 AM

0

Q: Is there a single adjective for "mercenary-like attitude"?

What is a word I can use for someone who acts like a mercenary? Someone who does something only when paid, without loyalty, ruthless and sticking to the contract, even in the case of life and death? "I would ask my best friend to help us in this project, but I don't trust him. He's not a bad ...

single-word-requests adjectives

3 hours later…

6:14 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, blacklisted website in body, blacklisted website in title, pattern-matching product name in body, +2 more: www.supplentforhealthylifestyle.org/radiantly-slim-australia/ by braustoen on english.SE

5 hours later…

11:35 AM

0

Q: Looking for a word meaning "attempt" or "bid" or "campaign" specifically in a legal context

If there is an exact outcome I am hoping for, in specifically a legal context, but where I'm not necessarily either suing or defending or appealing or prosecuting; But where I am devoting resources and making decisions in the direction of a wanted outcome; What would you call that? Perhaps "ma...

single-word-requests legalese

1 hour later…

12:51 PM

0

Q: Word or expression for a shared feeling of constant distrust, paranoia and anxiety of failure within a group of workers

I am looking for a word that would describe a feeling among a group of workers who are distrustful of one another and overly paranoid of an impending group breakdown & failure. For context, imagine a group of people who are so concerned with looking out for their own personal welfare & job secur...

single-word-requests expression-requests

1:06 PM

0

Q: Looking for a word related to justice

I'm looking for a word that means "someone brought to justice" Example: She was brought to justice in the court.

single-word-requests

1:29 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in answer, no whitespace in answer, repeating characters in answer: Using "will" in a sentence vs not using "will" by v.nithya on english.SE

2:17 PM

@Færd, @Cerberus OK forget the music question, that was pretty superficial. Now for the real question, about the Frontline documentary 'Our Man in Teheran'. So here goes:

First, the blurb about the show (from PBS )

> Erdbrink shares a rare journey into a private Iran often at odds with its conservative clerics and leaders. The series offers surprising encounters inside the closed society of Iran, as Erdbrink gets Iranians to reveal the intricacies of their private worlds and the challenges of living under theocratic leaders.

Great. Very interesting. I want to see that. (Cerb note the "closed society", but that's not the point here. I'm getting to the point).

@Mitch Frontline documentary?

So the point of the documentary is ostensibly about what Iranian society looks like on the inside, to an outsider (specifically a European).

@Cerberus (follow the links)

The series was presumably commissioned or paid for by Dutch broadcasting society VPRO.

@Mitch Ostensibly, or apparently?

@Cerberus Um... I can't comment on provenance, it was shown on American PBS network on the Frontline show, so that's what I call it. And constantly through the documentary Erdbrink keeps saying 'super important correspondent for the New York Times). So there is some labeling mixing but the important part is that it was not produced by Iranians but by European/NA people.

Ostensibly means, with the intention to appear that way.

@Mitch By Dutch people, yes.

2:23 PM

@Cerberus maybe neither. it is about what it looks like to the outsider.

Then apparently, not ostensibly.

but my point is the contents of what it looks like to him, which I wil get to shortly if only I can take a short breath.

How was your day?

How's the weather?

@Cerberus Yes, I vaguely remember the credits being mostly Dutch

Why did you pick that icon?

2:25 PM

@Cerberus I will not fall into that trap. Apparently I have done so simply by responding.

grinds teeth

How do you feel about travelling to the North Pole, and why?

@Mitch Then who is it that I see falling...

@Cerberus I really like 'ostensibly'.

Well, it is no synonym of apparently.

It means something else when used properly.

I use it by often because it sound fancy and because people are effing liars.

also meretricious.

It means something like, pretending to do something.

You only use it when you suspect someone might be concealing the truth.

2:27 PM

@Cerberus well sure, it is a synonym of apparently, they're just not identical. They have nearby meanings.

Today I learned!

I'll remember that one. Thanks for sharing @Cerberus

@Cerberus You pointed out my use and I acquiesced. If that is the right word.

Good!

Excellent is a synonym for good, but you can't just willy-nilly replace one for the other.

Another hairsplitter I am fond of: eager vs anxious . I used to say I was anxious about something to indicate that I was excitedly anticipating something in a positive way. Then someone told me that the root of anxious is anxiety and that i was using it wrong. :)

2:28 PM

Back to the documentary...

maybe...

I leave you to it. Have a good day!

@Lumberjack Very good!

It always confuses me a little bit when people use anxious without angst.

> She walked by the school and looked at the building, ostensibly to study the architecture. But I believe she was really observing my nephew.

> Erdbrink filmed Iranian families, ostensibly to portray Iranian daily life. But in reality he may be trying to broadcast a secret code using hand signs.

So the documentary had a number of segments, talking with his in-laws, visiting the fancy new cafe in the fancy part of town with crazy rich Iranians. the teenage granddaughter growing up in LA with a tattoo who wants to live back in Teheran, ...

...the AA meeting (where the guy talks about being whipped), the teenagers who were convicted to lashes for producing a childishly tame video because both men and unhijabed unrelated women appeared in the same frame, the tourist attracting river in Isfahan that has gone dry, blamed on various things. where people want to go if they left Iran (America almost always).

lots of other segments.

Noted.

I haven't watched all the episodes yet.

@Cerberus Yes, I was not trying to say that. at all.

2:35 PM

I know.

OK. now the point.

wait..

how much did you see?

waiting while trying to distract Mitch

I don't know. I think the first two or three episodes of the new season, and maybe one or two from the first?

the whole thing is two parts, two hours each for 4 hrs total

@Cerberus reply...season of what?

user image

Perhaps he recompiled the episodes into a different format for American television or something?

oh, some more segments: about his Tehrani assistant's life - getting an apartment as a divorced woman, her home town. the auto-repair guy in LA who doesn't feel american.

2:39 PM

I remember some of that.

@Cerberus wow... how long was each episode? 1/2, that would explain things

I don't know, I think maybe an hour? Less?

I can look it up.

ok. to the point.

The show was all about women.

mostly

Episode 1 is 42 minutes.

most of the little episodes were about women's lives.

@Cerberus hmm...maybe I'll miss some of the things you would see in the Dutch version

2:41 PM

Episode 5 is also 42 minutes ish.

@Mitch I don't know.

do you have commercials? cut into the middle of those shows?

Is the commentary also in Dutch for you?

@Mitch No.

Public television never has commercials in the middle of a programme.

nothing in Dutch at all. Erdbrink speaking in English or Farsi, all the people talking to him in either English or Farsi (there may have been one short part where he spoke in Dutch but I can't remember when, I would have not registered it)

Ah, then he must have edited the Dutch parts and redone them in English.

@Cerberus same here, but I wasn't sure if it was on the air there in NL on public television

2:44 PM

So when he speaks looking directly into the camera with nobody present, he speaks in English for you?

@Cerberus I wondered that. He would have had to do a lot of double takes. Sure there was narration that's easy to redo in multiple languages, but the interviews were all in English or Farsi for me.

@Cerberus Yes.

In the original version, both his talking to the camera and the voice-overs are in Dutch.

@Mitch Well, that's because he only interviews people who don't speak Dutch, doesn't he?

I don't recall his doing any interviews in Dutch.

OK there's a third possibility. 1) voiceovers, 2) Talking directly to the camera 3) (the new one) him interviewing others on camera

So he must have done all the speaking-to-the-camera parts double, and the voice-overs.

and most of it was 3 (for me) and that was all mostly Farsi w subtitles, or English.

interviews were the bulk of the show

2:46 PM

Yes, for me too, for how many Dutchmen does he interview? I think none.

OK, then that seems very manageable.

anyway, what do you think of my observation about the content? That it was mostly about women?

listing all those segments, I'd say around half were women centered.

Umm I'd have to think about it.

But half doesn't sound like much?

Half is what one would expect?

I think why that stood out to me is that if you see a show about the society of Chinese rural life, it's not similarly as much about women.

I don't know, but half the population is female.

So I would expect half women.

It did not strike me as noticeable, the number of women in the documentaries.

0

Q: Is there a word for each component of a DateTime

A DateTime would look like - 2018-08-21 12-24-42 (YYYY-MM-DD HH-mm-ss) and may or may not contain Timezone information. Is there a word to address a component of this? By a component I mean each value between 2 delimiters (only the year, or only the hour etc.) With reference to the above example...

single-word-requests

2:52 PM

@Cerberus in some hyper logical way, but the other half is not about men as non-women. The waterless river, the AA meeting (all men).

I'm not sure I follow.

The episodes about women are about them in relation to men. The trouble getting an apartment by a divorced woman, wearing a hijab inside because of censors viewing the film and wanting to keep a career later, the zumba instructor (exactly same issue how to get around the censor by covering oneself approriately).

The AA meeting was about the illegality of alcohol, not about (I'm making this up) how men who drink can't be divorced by their wives.

So what are you getting at?

The emancipation of women is an important topic of his documentaries, yes.

@Cerberus There were a lot of episodes about women. It was noticeable to me.

I don't know, it wasn't to me.

I expected a lot about emancipation and the lack thereof, as it is an important issue.

3:29 PM

All the women's issues there are important, just as they might have been in 1965-1989 East Germany, but trying to compare things, I can't tell how much the Iranian 'Morality police' is like the Stasi.

I think it boils down to that. Comparisons.

Would a documentary on the society of [X, Y, Z], have as much dedicated to women?

3:55 PM

@MetaEd I know the feeling.

4:42 PM

@Mitch So that was the point you wanted to make, right?

I plowed thru so much to get to that.

Kudos to distracting capabilities of Cerb.

I haven't watched all of it yet. Did the first season (corresponding to your first part, I guess) in Dutch, so didn't really understand the narration and monologues.

But I get what you mean.

That's actually a good question to ask how much bias do Orientalist studies have in (over)emphasizing this aspect.

Although I haven't finish this particular show yet, I didn't get the impression that it was overplaying that part. Maybe that's because feminist issues are a big concern of mine.

But generally speaking, I do get disturbed when some people invalidate everything about the male-female commerce and dealings in Muslim esp Middle Eastern societies altogether in comparison to the purported emancipation of the Western Woman.

I find that weapon being wielded not always for the good purposes and intentions. And there could be a certain dehumanization or bias to it sometimes.

So I'm a vociferous advocate for women's freedoms and gender equality, but I'm careful not to demonize people who haven't been introduced to this different kind of social equilibrium that I'm calling for.

It's a complex issue and we need to be more specific about which detail we're talking. Is it hijab? Financial rights? etc.

If you wanted me to opine on the image of the Western emancipator of women, I don't like that idea at all. I see feminism as an intersectional issue, interconnected with all other aspects of social justice (ethnicity, class, etc), and on many of the other aspects, the official Western influence has proved mortal or detrimental.

(BTW, a couple days ago was the anniversary of Operation Ajax)

But as far as I could make out of the parts of this show that I watched, I don't remember having been particularly bothered by it.

Now I have to think whether my sensors are deadened.

I'll contemplate that over dinner.

1 hour later…

6:08 PM

@Gigili When I eat enough of 'em it makes my skin crawl.

@Mitch The poem? "Mo rog / Glonog, / Quinba, / Hlin varr."

6:23 PM

0

Q: What is an eloquent word for a disrespectful, impertinent child?

I’m looking for a word that denotes a child (either a young one or a fully grown one) who acts disrespectfully and spitefully toward his or her parents.

single-word-requests word-choice pejorative-language epithet-requests

@tchrist that's two words. For at least two children.

Wait, that's different. English is hard.

It's okay, it's a single word and it's eloquent. Good answer.

The meaning doesn't matter, it's an SWR.

These have me a quivering blob. How in the world do you endure it?

Ibuprofen.

6:37 PM

There, that's one word.

IV sedation, more like.

You know that there's only one thing and one thing only that rubs me the wrong way about that question.

I do?

Take a guess.

"his or her"

Bingo.

6:38 PM

Not a real word.

Told you you knew it.

It's annoying.

FTFY

Thanks.

We have so many questions with rude words for answers already. Surely one of those suffices.

Note how it was doubly wrong because a child in English is an it.

6:40 PM

shhh

Should it be opened?

We can let it run the reopen queue.

Or open it forthwith.

Futurama_neutral_response.gif

I am writing music. Children are beneath me right now. Especially impertinent ones.

@Færd haha. yes. that was all.

@RegDwigнt +1

@Færd haha...not how much, but in what way. As you well know, the Middle East is not very homogeneous. Iran is not Turkey and it is not Saudi Arabia etc etc etc. News that comes out of SA is about allowing women to drive, from Iran about allowing women to not wear the hijab (sometimes), from Turkey women have to now wear it in Parliament, but its reporte like its all the same thing.

@Færd I feel funny saying it because women's issues are a big deal, but my pointing it out seems like I think it shouldn't be a big deal.

@Færd I think the documentary did say the appropriate things like I think you are alluding to, the framing, like is it about getting a job, or wearing clothes you like.

6:56 PM

Iran is not Turkey?

Does Recep Tayyip Erdoğan know?

@MetaEd OK. And in English?

@Mitch the English translation for "Mo rog / glonog / quinba / hlin varr" is "my rug / it really / tied the room / together".

I know all the languages. You have question about word in language, you need ask me.

@WS2 Using French words in English says nothing whatsoever about one’s English education; it says something else. The writer of English who litters his prose avec des mots étrangers is one who ipso facto presents l’esprit not of douce sensibilité attuned to the Zeitgeist of the broader Οἰκουμένη so much as that of the poseur jactant, an élitist snob whose asquerous efforts to elevate himself above vulgus and bourgeoisie alike effects precisely lo contrario of his intended meta. In short, it’s a twit marker — and quite a reliable one at that, n’est-ce pas? “Render unto France . . .” — tchrist ♦ Feb 27 '14 at 22:18

@RegDwigнt It is, they are, you should.

Poseur? C'est qui? — WS2 Feb 27 '14 at 22:51

Laconic++

7:07 PM

@tchrist 'asquerous'? WTF

furiously pages through OED

@Mitch Kiss me / Please / Miss, / I like your nose.

@Mitch Egad, you've just outed yourself as uneducated plod!

@MetaEd Weird.

What's 'nose' got to do with it?

It's funny that they say rog instead of rug. it could be confused with dog and that definitely poses problems.

nah, dog kisses are the best.

You need a towel afterwards though

7:09 PM

@Gigili It's pronounced like "rogue". Think German or Italian while reading it.

keep your mouth closed

@Mitch I'm still coated with dog spit from this morning.

@MetaEd Dried dog slobber doesn't have the best of afterfeelings, granted

How much spit could a dog spit spit if a dog spit could spit spit?

OK I take it back. Dog kisses can be gross

7:11 PM

How could I think Italian while writing English when I am actually neither? You're asking too much of me.

@Mitch No taking back in this chat.

@Gigili Do not call up the @RegDwigнt unless you are able to put him down.

Challenge accepted.

8:02 PM

@Gigili :-D

8:18 PM

@tchrist wow. So this is how you talk about a user's question. If he were to find out?

@tchrist can we? I don't think. Not when I last checked. I am so disappointed.

No wonder we get meta clogged up with newcomers who complain about sarcastic demeaning horrible comments aimed at them and at their questions. Some of them come from the mods themselves.

@Mari-LouA Well said Mari-Lou! It would be nice if everyone behaved more respectfully towards one another. The level of vitriol that people feel comfortable with here is disconcerting.

2 hours later…

10:25 PM

@Færd One can only do one's best.

@Færd I agree.

@Færd My impression is similar. The only thing, perhaps, @Mitch, is that Thomas perhaps simplifies and over-emphasises things sometimes.

@Mitch Women in Turkey have to wear the hijab in parliament? Surely that can't be true?

Isn't it the opposite: they are now allowed to wear one in parliament?

Good night

Is it?

It was more of a wish than a proclamation I suspect. :)

@Cerberus Hmm...my memories are foggy at best.

As are all of ours.

10:39 PM

I thought that Erdogan had allowed them but wiki says he tried but it was later annulled, so you now as before cannot wear a hijab in parliament (and other government public places like that.

(Hmm somehow that sounded odd.)

@Lumberjack Heh I know.

@Cerberus it feels like yesterday

@Mitch OK, phew.

like I still think the capital of Nigeria is ... wait was it ever Lagos?

So it is, indeed, the opposite.

@Mitch Not that I remember.

Abuja forever!

10:40 PM

it's abuja now

but it was something else not too long ago (which means 30 years ago for me)

Oh, really?

Port Something?

Port Harcourt?

nope that's just an oil port

Abuja became capital in 1991 (says wiki)

The city of Benin?

but I can't confirm that in 1960 (whne Nigeria became independent) that it was ...

Ibadan

Oh, I saw that city on the map.

But I know nothing about it.

@Mitch Is this praeterition?

10:49 PM

I can say nothing about preterition

wait that's not a pun

I will not even mention apophasis

capital of Benin is Porto-Novo, but strangely the seat of government is distinct and is in Cotonou

but this is not answering what I was thinking about the continuum of Saudi Arabia, Iran, Turkey. Maybe the hijab thing works out. All three muslim. SA hijab enforcement is the minimum, for Iran the enforcement is spotty, for Turkey it is banned (sort of like France.)

@Mitch No, I meant the city of Benin, in Nigeria.

@Mitch In Turkey, it used to be banned somewhat like France, but it is now allowed almost everywhere, and it is probably worn by the majority.

11:09 PM

user image

Look at this hilarious costume.

A woman in Bandung.

@Cerberus What's the hilarious bit, the amusing colorizing?

The mixed messaging.

The clash of various foreign influences.

Ah.

11:47 PM

Uh.

« first day (2840 days earlier) ← previous day next day → last day (2074 days later) »

Transcript for

Aug '1821

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…

Not for the faint of heart or those easily triggered by Englis...

phrase-requests pronunciation single-word-requests synonyms

join this room
about this room

00:00

06:00

12:00

18:00

all times are UTC

site design / logo © 2024 Stack Exchange Inc; legal

mobile