English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

12:52 AM

@Mitch Dunno for sure. One turning point, I reckon, is when Wahhabism began to take hold in SA. The other one, older, is nationalist Iranians feeling their pride trampled on by Arabs' conquest of Iran.

But this is a serious issue deserving of more thought and research.

tchrist

1:23 AM

The top search for every state is PORN, except Florida, where it's SEX PORN.

Steven Vascellaro

2:06 AM

@tchrist I've edited my question english.stackexchange.com/questions/392966/… to explain why it is not a duplicate of english.stackexchange.com/questions/389330/…

tchrist

@StevenVascellaro Thank you.

I had left it open so that you could make that determination for yourself.

Steven Vascellaro

@tchrist On my end it says you and Tom22 closed the question as a duplicate

tchrist

@StevenVascellaro Oh sorry, then I'm thinking of the wrong question. Let me look and try to fix it.

Steven Vascellaro

0

Q: What is an alternative name for a "wife-beater"?

In the United States, a white sleeveless shirt is often referred to as a "wife-beater". Typically I try to avoid using "wife-beater" due to its negative connotation. I've tried using a few different terms in the past, but each felt a bit too broad or generalized. Tank Top: Can refer to formal ...

tchrist

Hm.

So ok, this is a regional issue.

Steven Vascellaro

2:10 AM

@tchrist Correct

tchrist

For example, in Vancouver BC you will signs barring entry to men wearing "singlets" but not to women. They specifically mean what other regions call "tank tops". Those are terms with distinct meaning to many speakers.

Steven Vascellaro

The previous question asks about the history/origin of the term and why it's used

tchrist

"Wife beater" is new urban slang.

Steven Vascellaro

I'm asking if there's a single recognisable alternative

tchrist

A sleeveless shirt is different in shape.

The picture you present is of a tank-top/singlet.

Tank-top is more recognizable south of the border; singlet, above.

There may be an east–west component as well.

Steven Vascellaro

2:14 AM

@tchrist My main reason for asking was that the closest thing to an answer I could find was this online forum discussion, which offered multiple alternatives

tchrist

It's possible that this use of singlet is specific to western Canada; I don't know.

Steven Vascellaro

I couldn't find a natural-sounding way to explain that in my question

tchrist

Ok, I agree it is not a duplicate.

But I don't agree that "In the United States, those are known as wife-beaters."

There are some speech communities where this is so, but certainly there are others where it quite manifestly is not.

I find it unlikely that members of the educated class, particularly those of a certain age, would befoul their mouths using the term wife-beater.

In the UK they call these something else again, and I don't know what the downunderers calls them.

Steven Vascellaro

@tchrist You would be very surprised

Here in New York, it's a very common term

tchrist

Like I said, urban slang.

And uncouth urban slang as well.

If you don't want to sound coarse, tank top should be universally recognized in the United States. UK speakers will probably recognize it due to their greater familiarity with our lingo than us with theirs.

Our Brits have gone off to bed already, or I'd ask them their preferred terms.

I'm pretty sure though that they call those vests there.

Don't do that in the States; it will just confuse people.

separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com/2007/08/…

See above.

I don't know who calls them pullunders; Germans for all I know.

Steven Vascellaro

2:26 AM

@tchrist The thing is, it's surprisingly accepted here. Hence the entire premise of english.stackexchange.com/questions/389330/…

tchrist

I bet you would also use the slang term douche-bag now wouldn't you?

Steven Vascellaro

No

tchrist

Very well, but you see where I was going.

Steven Vascellaro

I'm not saying I agree with the term 'wife-beater'. In fact, that's why I asked the question in the first place

I've actually had people correct me when I've refered to it as an undershirt

tchrist

Both those terms seem unfit for gentle company and speech, the stuff of drunken sailors perhaps.

Well, it is an undershirt!

Just a sleeveless one.

Those who know more than you will correct you if you're wrong.

Those who know less than you will correct you if you're right.

I'm afraid you find yourself talking to an overeducated old man with careful diction who rarely swears.

Steven Vascellaro

2:31 AM

@tchrist To give you an idea of how common the term is in the United States, here's google's search trends

tchrist

But I would not hear that word on the lips of my peers, my friends and colleagues.

Steven Vascellaro

trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=undershirt,wife%20beater

tchrist

I'm not sure what that matters.

Any cocksucker can say whatever the fuck he wants, and most do.

It has that tone for me.

I'm not going to start talking like that just because other people do, no matter HOW MANY other people do so.

Steven Vascellaro

@tchrist I agree with you. Hence that is the issue I'm having

tchrist

I'd shrug off being miscorrected about your sleeveless undershirts.

Do you know what an idiolect is?

It's each individual's own personal language. We all have one.

The thing is, just as I wouldn't use those words with my retired parents and such, neither would I use them with anyone else. It just isn't me to talk like that.

May I ask how old you are? I'm idly curious.

Steven Vascellaro

2:39 AM

@tchrist 22

tchrist

That makes sense.

I was guessing under 30.

But over 14, who wouldn't care.

Steven Vascellaro

trends.google.com/trends/…

Those trends surprise me

tchrist

It might be all the non-kids trying to figure out what the nasty words coming out of those noisy kids on their lawns are all about.

The suggested muscle shirt is an older term that probably doesn't work here at all. It was always about something else anyway.

Muscle shirts are — or were — hip, sexy, sleeveless t-shirts that had more than the v-necked strapped things you see on tank tops.

The proportions are different. They're just regular (often stretchy) t-shirts without sleeves. They don't have the thinner shoulder straps that tank tops have.

They're sporty.

The trends thing you show isn't really very useful, I'm afraid. It has no demographic data, no motivation for interest, etc.

It also has no granularity.

I'm sure it does mean SOMETHING.

But I would be careful not to be sure what that something is. Just too blunt.

Good studies of these things have a bunch of axes, like gender and region and urban-vs-town-vs-rural and education and age.

And they aren't self-selecting.

Does that make any sense?

I wonder whether DARE has anything on this.

Hm, apparently not.

Steven Vascellaro

2:55 AM

@tchrist I really think it is a regional thing

Ebay has a dedicated category for "Wife Beater" here

tchrist

mic.com/articles/139771/…

Steven Vascellaro

@tchrist Apparently the English wikipedia page for "sleeveless shirt" used to be named "Wifebeater (shirt)"

Talk:Wifebeater (shirt)

== From article == A shirt of this type worn by women and often more fitted than the male version is sometimes referred to as a "boy beater". == General == Voicing my agreement that tank top shouldn't be on VfD; question though: I always heard of this in the context of a button-front shirt with the sleeves removed... - Hephæstos|§ 04:05, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC) About a week ago I opened a livejournal poll, whose results strongly corroborate the term referring to a tank top, not a shirt with buttons. Matt gies 04:09, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC) I still disagree, although perhaps the vernacular has changed since...

en.wikipedia.org/w/…

tchrist

It's ugly, coarse slang.

Steven Vascellaro

@tchrist Agreed

tchrist

You can show your character by not using it.

Steven Vascellaro

2:58 AM

@tchrist I don't use it

I've always used "undershirt"

My girlfriend uses the term though

@tchrist You seem to know a lot about this topic. Why not write it up as an answer?

I would love a multi-regional perspective on the issue

tchrist

There will be people it offends, and people it does not, and people who are offended that there are people who don't care.

I worry that this will attract more heat than light.

Each of those groups of people will have champions saying that the other groups are of course wrong.

I'm not especially interested in that sort of fracas, and I may have to moderate it.

I mean, yes, we have other moderators and all, but I just don't feel like pig-wrestlin' right now is all.

Steven Vascellaro

Understandable

I hadn't considered that perspective

I spent 2 hours rewording my question to try and make it as uncontroversial/inoffensive as I could

tchrist

We'll see what all turns up. I've cleared the close votes.

Your time investment is appreciated.

Steven Vascellaro

@tchrist Thanks. Unused titles include "Is there a potentially non-offensive term for a wife-beater" and "What's a politically correct term for a 'wife-beater'"

tchrist

And I was right: I did have to moderate. Thrice so far.

No, four times.

Steven Vascellaro

3:07 AM

Apologies for that

tchrist

I've protected the question and posted notices on the one-liner non-answers. If after a few days those aren't cleaned up, I'll delete them.

Well, unless the rest of the community already has.

Questions about controversial language, especially common language, are always like this. Everyone has a one-liner opinion.

Those aren't answers at all, and really aren't comments technically either.

The system automatically raises low-quality flags against them, and sends them to the low-quality review queue and eventually to the moderator queue.

Twitterings don't further the network-wide goal of building up a library of in-depth, citable answers in various areas of expertise.

You've put a lot of work into your question; you deserve good answers. It may take a day or three.

Steven Vascellaro

Thanks.

I've learned quite a bit already actually

I'd never heard the term "singlets" before

Researching the different types of tank tops/undershirts/singlets was also interesting

tchrist

I know it's in BC; I never noticed it in eastern Canada but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

Steven Vascellaro

Your comments are what gave the idea to compare the various search trends

tchrist

I notice the Hindians say vest as I mentioned I thought UK speakers did.

(Per the one-liner.)

Steven Vascellaro

3:17 AM

If I include "tank top", it skews the search trends by a hilarious degree trends.google.com/trends/…

tchrist

Probably because that's the dominant term here. But that periodicity is peculiar.

Steven Vascellaro

I'd argue tank top is a broad enough category to contain most of the other terms

tchrist

I imagine some folks make distinctions that others do not. Always that way.

I hope you don't have to get up early tomorrow.

Steven Vascellaro

@tchrist It's 11:21 here in New York

tchrist

Exactly.

I'm already up past my bedtime. I get up at 4 or 5.

Steven Vascellaro

3:22 AM

Usually I'd need to be up for work by 6, but I'm headed to a convention this weekend

tchrist

And not by choice, trust me.

Steven Vascellaro

Don't need to get up until 12

tchrist

I can't sleep past twilight.

Steven Vascellaro

Ever try taking Melatonin?

tchrist

Sure.

I'm just wired for the day.

Not the night.

Steven Vascellaro

3:24 AM

I just realized that was my first question on EL&U

tchrist

I looked at your SO tags.

Steven Vascellaro

@tchrist That sounds really foreboding coming from an admin.

tchrist

Hah.

I just wondered what sorts of programming you were interested in.

Steven Vascellaro

I've taken an interest in DevOps lately

tchrist

Was glad to see you had more serious interests than purely javascript frontend jumbo-mumbles.

Steven Vascellaro

3:27 AM

If you check my network profile, it's actually a bit of a hodgepodge of interests

Answering and asking questions on SO is hard just due to the sheer volume of questions

tchrist

It is.

You have to focus on specific tags.

Steven Vascellaro

I'm a big fan of Super User, Arquade, and Meta SE

tchrist

Superuser is good.

Steven Vascellaro

Super User is nice because it has a niiche for every type program

tchrist

> Hello, this is Ken. What's the root password?

Which, apparently, he actually did. :)

(Thompson)

Steven Vascellaro

3:31 AM

SU is also the site with the most well recieved question I've asked

I want to eventually reach 25k rep so I can see the site analytics

tchrist

The SO ones are impressive.

Steven Vascellaro

I'm really interested in viewing traffic sources.

tchrist

Ah.

Oh, I guess those are included in the non-moderator view. Hadn't realized that.

Steven Vascellaro

Anytime I see a low-scoring question with a large viewcount, I suspect it means the question attracted a lot of Google traffic rather than SE traffic

For example

superuser.com/users/358766/…

Apple question aside, my most viewed questions are rarely my best scoring

tchrist

That's the SO traffic sources. I imagine that the SU ones will be similar.

Steven Vascellaro

3:38 AM

Why is DuckDuckGo considered a referring site and not a search engine?

tchrist

I don't know.

That's an MSE type question.

Oh, I've looked at your "How can I display the  (U+F8FF, Apple logo) character on Windows?" question before.

Steven Vascellaro

It's a question I can't ask, since I technically don't have access to view those stats. XD

tchrist

Heh.

Steven Vascellaro

Maybe it has something to do with DuckDuckGo's motto, "The search engine that doesn't track you."

Might not have referral links built in

tchrist

Oh I see what's different.

I can see why they prefer to keep those data private.

Steven Vascellaro

3:41 AM

Makes sense. Don't want to game the system

tchrist

ELU referrals are from SO as #1 and SU as #4.

With duckduckgo again at #2.

Steven Vascellaro

How much crossover is there between English Language & Usage and English Learners?

tchrist

In what regard?

Steven Vascellaro

I guess a better question is, how much overlap is there question-wise?

tchrist

Some, although the idea is that the answers are different.

ELU has facebook as referrer #3.

SmokeDetector

4:57 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in link text in answer, link at end of answer: Worshippers of the rising sun by Randeep Kashyap on english.SE

RegDwigнt

10:34 AM

@Cerberus @Robusto correction: I made him like Sita Sings the Blues.

Fuck Annette Hanshaw., for all I care. But do go watch Sita. Now. It's a must.

Sita Sings the Blues

►

Færd

11:42 AM

> 1. An icon of 1950s popular culture
> 2. An icon of the 1950s popular culture
> 3. An icon of 1950s' popular culture
> 4. An icon of the 1950s' popular culture

?

Steven Vascellaro

12:55 PM

The "wife-beater" question is now my second highest scoring post on Stack Exchange and I don't know how to feel about that.

Tonepoet

Nothing's wrong with it in my opinion. It's not like your post advocates for beating wives.

Steven Vascellaro

It just adds to the bizarreness that is my network profile

It's located right alongside "How did the Community bot earn the “Not a Robot” badge?" and "Did Fox need permission for the 'Spider-Pig' parody in The Simpsons Movie?"

Tonepoet

1: It passed the Turing test. =P 2. I would suppose that the spider pig parody would be protected by fair use, especially since parodies usually get extended privileges under that doctrine in the courts. (If Fox paid out to Marvel, it might be because they would rather pay the royalty than have the lawsuit.)

Steven Vascellaro

@Tonepoet The weird thing about fair use is that it's typically used as a legal defense after you've been sued.

It also gets a bit complicated when you're selling the track on iTunes

@Tonepoet Also, the answer to 1 was a mod stating "I was wondering how long it'd take meta to notice. About 21 hours, not too shabby."

Though, to be fair, I wasn't the one who noticed it first

Turns out it was technically a duplicate, just from meta SO instead of meta SE

Tonepoet

@StevenVascellaro How does that differ from any other rationale regarding whether something is legal or not?

Steven Vascellaro

1:11 PM

@Tonepoet True enough I suppose. Though I'd imagine fox has enough of a working relationship with marvel that getting permission wouldn't be too difficult

Tonepoet

@StevenVascellaro I'm not so sure about that. We aren't talking about Deviant Art users here, but big business. I'm sure royalties would have to be involved.

Steven Vascellaro

That's exactly why I'm thinking they'd make some sort of licensing deal beforehand rather than taking the chance of legal issues

Or at least, getting permission

After all, the melody of the song is 100% unchanged in the film

Mitch

@Færd no 'the' at all. but between #1 and #3... I have no idea. google for examples?

Robusto

1:28 PM

@RegDwigнt Stop trolling me. And how exactly is @Cerberus like Sita Sings the Blues? He still seems more like a dog and less like a Bollywood elephant to me.

@Færd #1, no apostrophe necessary because the year functions there as an attributive noun, not a possessive.

RegDwigнt

1:54 PM

@Robusto I am not trolling you. Also, did you know that dogs smoke grass?

MetaEd

2:21 PM

Færd

2:52 PM

@Mitch @Robusto Thanks.

.

Færd

3:03 PM

Just opened my deactivated Facebook account to see if Facebook Safety Check was activated for people in Tehran after the terrorist attack. You have three guesses.